Author Topic: Spray Foam DIY  (Read 12154 times)

jenstill

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Spray Foam DIY
« on: May 17, 2013, 04:53:49 AM »
My house is a 120 year old farm house in Vermont with little to no insulation in most of the walls. Heating part of the house to minimum temps over this past winter was $1200+ per month. So, I've bought this http://www.sprayfoamdirect.com/products/spray-foam-kits/energy-efficient-home-insulation-kit-detail

I've done some minor home improvement work myself and have hung insulation batts in one room of the house. But, I have never used a product like this.

Have you? Do you have any tips or tricks for me? Things to watch out for or that I should know/do ahead of time to be more efficient?

Rural

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Re: Spray Foam DIY
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2013, 05:31:23 AM »
I didn't know there were DIY kits when we paid to have ours done last fall, but our building inspector mentioned it when he did the walk through and recommended it for any patching up we have to do down the road.

First thing I'll say based on being there when the pros did ours is wear the respirator. All the time. Not kidding on that -- the stuff is caustic before it dries.

Next, wear goggles. If you wear glasses and are thinking they will protect your eyes, well, you are probably right about your eyes, but your glasses will be permanently etched. It's much cheaper to etch some goggles from the hardware store. I'm sure you've figured out how I know this!

You'll get an incredible seal out of an inch of foam, by the way, ( the product description mentions an inch of foam over 1200 sqft; is that what you're going for?) But, you won't get a lot of R value out of foam that thin. You also really need to open up the walls to get it into all the nooks and crannies. I you can't do that , you'll get much better results than you have now, but it won't be perfect. We have eight inches on the roof deck and six in the exterior walls.

Are you doing your roof deck? It sticks to the underside very effectively and will give some climate control to your attic space, which is not a bad thing if you have pipes up there.

I'd tell you to be prepared for how much it expands, but you can't. It's amazing. Just be aware that you'll probably be making adjustments once you see that.

If you have any unsecured wiring (more than about two feet of wire between fasteners) the foam will push it out. Secure it before you start if that will be a problem. Don't spray behind any pipes until you see how much it expands. It could crack them.

Last thing: if you're thinking you may be able to get away with not emptying the room/ covering the appliances/covering the floor/ etc... Go ahead and do it. It's not that much trouble, and you'll be glad you did later.

jenstill

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Re: Spray Foam DIY
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2013, 05:49:32 AM »
This is excellent! Thank you so much. Yes, I do wear glasses and did think that'd be enough. I have some goggles though and I just tried and they fit over the glasses, so I'll definitely wear them. Yes, I was going for the 1" seal, but we definitely need R value here, so it sounds like I should plan to cover less square footage and do thicker than one inch. The first room I'm starting in is completely opened up, down to the studs, and emptied out so that's a good thing. The next rooms need to have the plaster & lathe ripped out first. I do plan to, but it's such a messy job that I need to wait til it warms up a little more here so I can open up all the windows.

I know you said you hired someone to do it, but I'm wondering if you know: the containers themselves are very heavy of course, but once you've hooked up the hose and are spraying, is that heavy or cumbersome? A lot of the first room will be spraying upwards (it's an A frame room) and I'm trying to figure how much time I should plan for it, as I'm sure I'll need to take breaks. Spraying up + heavy equipment + not very strong to begin with = fatigue, I assume.

Rural

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Re: Spray Foam DIY
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2013, 05:58:21 AM »
I don't have a clue about weight, sorry. They wouldn't let me touch the equipment, and their canisters were on a truck.

Look in the documentation for the R value per inch. It's much better than bats or blown-in insulation, but I don't remember what it is, and I don't know that what you have is exactly what I have anyway.

If you're spraying up, also be sure you cover your hair (baseball cap or something, and a braid if it's long). The stuff doesn't come out. :)

Editing to add that since you've opened up the walls, be sure to take care of securing the wiring. Otherwise you could have wires proud of the studs in a clump of foam and not even know until you cut them off when you trim the foam -- not a good end to a long, hard day!
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 06:01:28 AM by Rural »

Spork

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Re: Spray Foam DIY
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2013, 08:23:00 AM »

We did foam, too.  And we didn't do it ourselves.  I've patched it (missed spots or cuts I've had to make) with "Great Stuff" -- but obviously that isn't at all do-able on the big jobs.  They had LOOOONG hoses going back to the truck.

I'd say not just "wear goggles" but see if there aren't special goggles for it.  The guys that did ours had multiple layer tear off sheets on their goggles.  Every 30 or so linear feet, their goggles were so spent that they'd have to tear off the front of the mask and toss it.  (I did all the construction cleanup -- that's how I know.)

The really nice thing with foam-as-insulation is that the barrier moves to the edge of the envelope.  I live in the south and attics can easily be over 150 degrees in the summer.  It's awful.  The attic is now about 10 degrees hotter/colder than the house -- darn comfortable.

Here's pics if you're interested... that's the whole build, so ... foam starts about #246.

Rural

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Re: Spray Foam DIY
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2013, 08:32:10 AM »
Our guy didn't have special goggles, and he complained about visibility a lot. He blamed it on the goggles fogging up, which they will do, but I bet the etching was a big part of the problem.

ETA that we've also filled in some minor missed spots with Great Stuff.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 08:33:55 AM by Rural »

Spork

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Re: Spray Foam DIY
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2013, 08:48:19 AM »
One other thing I might mention:  With foam at the edge of the envelope, you no longer want your attic vented.  Any soffit venting or gable venting or ridge venting needs to be replaced or covered up.

You may also find areas you want to block out of the envelope.  We have both a garage attic and a porch attic that are outside the envelope.  The insulation guy just put up scrap plywood and blocked those areas off of the main areas, then foamed the "house side" of the plywood.  Those areas still have ridge/soffit vents.

Rural

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Re: Spray Foam DIY
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2013, 08:51:29 AM »
One other thing I might mention:  With foam at the edge of the envelope, you no longer want your attic vented.  Any soffit venting or gable venting or ridge venting needs to be replaced or covered up.

You may also find areas you want to block out of the envelope.  We have both a garage attic and a porch attic that are outside the envelope.  The insulation guy just put up scrap plywood and blocked those areas off of the main areas, then foamed the "house side" of the plywood.  Those areas still have ridge/soffit vents.

True, this, and a good point I had forgotten. This applies if you spray the bottom of the roof deck. If you only do the walls, or if you spray the ceiling deck* (top of the ceiling) instead, you should keep the vents.

* doing the ceiling deck is possible but not advisable according to everyone we talked to.

Beaker

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Re: Spray Foam DIY
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2013, 09:01:37 AM »
Interesting stuff. I notice that it says it comes with goggles (along with 16 other accessories!). Perhaps they're the tearaway ones mentioned earlier? In any case, might as well see if they'll work before you buy new ones.

You might want to figure out what you need to clean this stuff up when it gets somewhere you don't want it. This seems like the kind of thing that's almost guaranteed to get somewhere you don't want it at least once. :) I know that for Great Stuff you cleanup with acetone, so this might be similar. In any case, find out and make sure you're prepared for cleanup before you start spraying.

jenstill

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Re: Spray Foam DIY
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2013, 09:08:12 AM »
Terrific information, everyone. Thank you! I haven't opened the accessory box yet, so the special goggles may be in there. I'm making the prep area tonight and will open the box, so will find out. Then, I start spraying tomorrow. I hope it goes well. With nearly 3000sf to do, if the first room is awful, it's gonna be a heckuva long summer! Of course I just bought the one kit to start, so if it's truly horrendous, I guess I could hire a professional to do the rest of the house or just use regular insulation batts. Really hoping to save the money by doing it myself and increasing the R value and mold and water resistance by using the foam, though.

Rural

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Re: Spray Foam DIY
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2013, 09:23:20 AM »
A thought here that's probably obvious, but remember you only have to do exterior walls, not interior. It's easy to get caught up in the project and lose track of that!

Oh, and not so obvious. Take pictures, lots of them, of the insides of the walls before you start foaming, and label them (living room west wall, north to south, etc). You won't be able to find pipes and wires under the foam later on, and pictures could save you a lot of digging around in the wall someday. It's saved us already.

Be sure you get the studs in the pictures, too, in case you want to attach bookcases or something to the wall someday. Stud finders don't work as well in foamed walls, and they never work all that well in the first place.

StarswirlTheMustached

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Re: Spray Foam DIY
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2013, 10:05:53 AM »
If you want more R-value for less money, might I suggest putting styrofoam or traditional batts over your 1" sprayfoam, rather than spraying more foam? The real advantage of the foam is the sealing, not that the R value is that much higher per inch, so per dollar it might be better going with a combination system. I don't know how much the foam costs when you're DIYing, though.  I also haven't tried it,  and there might be some reason multiple forms of insulation aren't compatible I don't know about. (well, the sprayfoam would probably melt polystyrene until it's dry, that's one.)

Rural

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Re: Spray Foam DIY
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2013, 10:09:58 AM »
If you want more R-value for less money, might I suggest putting styrofoam or traditional batts over your 1" sprayfoam, rather than spraying more foam? The real advantage of the foam is the sealing, not that the R value is that much higher per inch, so per dollar it might be better going with a combination system. I don't know how much the foam costs when you're DIYing, though.  I also haven't tried it,  and there might be some reason multiple forms of insulation aren't compatible I don't know about. (well, the sprayfoam would probably melt polystyrene until it's dry, that's one.)

I think that's worth investigating. For us, adding more thickness didn't add appreciably to the cost (less than a comparable alternative), but since we hired it done, for us the primary expense was in getting the guys and equipment up there, and added materials weren't adding much. It also sprays so fast and expands so fast that it didn't really take more time, so we weren't paying for more labor. But with DIY foam, that could all be very different.

Spork

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Re: Spray Foam DIY
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2013, 10:14:57 AM »
Oh, and not so obvious. Take pictures, lots of them, of the insides of the walls before you start foaming, and label them (living room west wall, north to south, etc). You won't be able to find pipes and wires under the foam later on, and pictures could save you a lot of digging around in the wall someday. It's saved us already.

+1 !

I can't tell you how many times I've gone back to my construction photos.  I took panoramic shots in every room.  They are gold.

ghatko

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Re: Spray Foam DIY
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2013, 01:22:13 PM »
We sprayfoamed the inside of a cathedral ceiling, and the most important thing I can say, is it will make a MESS! The stuff drips, and splatters, and gets everywhere (especially if you are spraying the ceiling and not just a wall)! My husband wore a tyvek suit (http://www.tigerfoam.ca/accessories.php) which helped, but it still stuck to everything (including his arm hair on his wrists between the suit and his gloves). Also, definitely wear goggles (the ones he wore were covered and he could barely see by the time he was done) and a respirator (there are major fumes). We also weren't that careful with the drop cloths (they shifted while he worked), and it completely ruined the carpet in the room because the foam can never be removed. I hope this helps!

Rollin

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Re: Spray Foam DIY
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2013, 12:24:37 PM »
I considered doing my attic myself until I talked with my cousin - who did his whole house in 3" (attic, basement walls, and main floor walls).  I couldn't get the product for much less than the whole attic job done by a professional.  Walls that are open like yours are different though.

One thing he emphasized, and that talked me out of a DIY, was that you only have about 30 seconds of not spraying before the spray tip is no longer usable.  I pictured myself moving about in the attic and 30 seconds is not enough time for me to get from rafter to rafter while dressed like a mummy and hauling hoses and tanks around!

Not sure about the venting of the attic in Vermont, but we completely closed in the attic (Florida) with the foam (2+").  It is now considered conditioned space and since the HVAC system is up there our savings are now significant (doubles the life of the HVAC unit, 50% on A/C power, and 30% on heating).  The attic used to reach 125 to 135 degrees and so far has only hit 93 degrees (more heat on the way though so we'll see).

If you still haven't started and want to talk with my cousin let me know and I'll get you in touch with him.  He's very knowledgable (in Michigan - so similiar climate to Vermont).
« Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 07:42:56 PM by Rollin »

fiveoh

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Re: Spray Foam DIY
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2013, 11:54:34 AM »
How much did it cost you guys that paid someone else to do it?  I've been thinking about getting this done.  My attic is brutal in the summer and my electric bill triples due to the a/c. 

Rural

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Re: Spray Foam DIY
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2013, 11:59:39 AM »
How much did it cost you guys that paid someone else to do it?  I've been thinking about getting this done.  My attic is brutal in the summer and my electric bill triples due to the a/c.

We paid a little over $6k for 1600 sqft of roof deck, plus gables and exterior walls. The exterior walls were less than most houses because our house is earth sheltered and so only the south-facing wall is actually "exterior."

I don't have the exact figure in front of me, but it was closer to $6,000 than to $7,000.

Spork

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Re: Spray Foam DIY
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2013, 12:53:28 PM »
How much did it cost you guys that paid someone else to do it?  I've been thinking about getting this done.  My attic is brutal in the summer and my electric bill triples due to the a/c.

I don't have the actual cost sheets with me... I'd have to dig.  I do have the bid sheet.  For my 2 story 2300 sqft house:

conventional insulation: 2420
foam insulation: 4950

So: roughly double conventional vs foam.  The end result had lots of conventional insulation on interior walls/ceilings (for noise) and I went ahead and paid to conventionally insulate the garage. 

Rural

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Re: Spray Foam DIY
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2013, 02:46:19 PM »
Did you do walls and roof deck, Spork? How thick? We went to 8 inches on the roof deck, 6 inches in the walls.

Spork

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Re: Spray Foam DIY
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2013, 02:55:22 PM »
Did you do walls and roof deck, Spork? How thick? We went to 8 inches on the roof deck, 6 inches in the walls.

That is walls and roof deck.   We did 2x4 walls, so those were 4 inches.  Roof is 8 (I think).  We considered 2x6 walls, but went with 2x4. 

Edit:  There are areas in the attic that are 2x4 construction, outside walls but don't have drywall sheathing.  These probably do have at least 6 inches on them as they didn't have to be trimmed down.  You sort of have to look for the studs when you want them... they're buried.   There is a bit of a patterned look though, so you can find them.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 03:00:21 PM by Spork »

Rollin

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Re: Spray Foam DIY
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2013, 05:32:04 AM »
How much did it cost you guys that paid someone else to do it?  I've been thinking about getting this done.  My attic is brutal in the summer and my electric bill triples due to the a/c.

Mine was attic only (joists, soffits, and the floor of the garage ceiling) for $3 a flat sqaure foot - 2".  One inch is cheaper at $2.  2500 square feet = $7,500.

Remember that you get a significant tax credit for it to, lowering my cost to $5000 after I complete my tax return.

I have been taking the temperature in the house, outside, and in the attic (I have remote sensors) and the hottest it has gotten up there is 93 degrees.  It would have normally been 120 to 125 this time of year.  What was eye opening though was when I entered the attic Saturday morning it felt cool and dry, same as inside the house.  The outside was very warm and muggy.  All that cool and dry air would have normally been gone through the old venting in the attic.  I can actually use this area for storage now!

Other significant benefits include the wind load improvement it provides and secondary water penetration protection.  It's about triple the Miami-Dade standards on wind load (they are the toughest in the nation) and 99% water penetration protection (should you loose shingles during a storm you are still protected).

Spork

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Re: Spray Foam DIY
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2013, 07:38:49 AM »
How much did it cost you guys that paid someone else to do it?  I've been thinking about getting this done.  My attic is brutal in the summer and my electric bill triples due to the a/c.
Remember that you get a significant tax credit for it to, lowering my cost to $5000 after I complete my tax return.


...but only if you add to existing houses, not in new construction.  Tax laws can never be applied consistently!

seanquixote

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Re: Spray Foam DIY
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2013, 10:23:25 AM »


So jenstill,

Have you given it a first go?  I'm curious how it went...thinking about this for my attic.

Rural

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Re: Spray Foam DIY
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2013, 04:00:03 PM »
How much did it cost you guys that paid someone else to do it?  I've been thinking about getting this done.  My attic is brutal in the summer and my electric bill triples due to the a/c.
Remember that you get a significant tax credit for it to, lowering my cost to $5000 after I complete my tax return.


...but only if you add to existing houses, not in new construction.  Tax laws can never be applied consistently!

Beat me to it. An endless source of frustration around our place!

jenstill

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Re: Spray Foam DIY
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2013, 08:06:16 AM »
Mother Nature interfered with my plan, as she is wont to do. We had some major flooding in my area and some poor folks literally lost their homes. I was lucky in that regard; only my basement flooded. I didn't feel lucky at the time, of course, given it knocked out the furnace (and temps were below 50) and the water heater so we had little heat and no hot water for a week. Got that taken care of as much as is possible at this time and am now getting back to my summer plan.

I did the first room. HOLY COW, what a mess. Covered nearly from head to toe with a Tyvek suit, goggles, respirator, gloves, shoe covers ... and still managed to be coated in tiny little droplets of that stuff. Covered the floors with plastic and still managed to get it all over the floor. I was, as you told me I would be, astounded by how much it expands! Unbelievable. I did pretty well at maneuvering fast enough to prevent the hose from clogging due to inactivity and only had to change the nozzles twice. Even with vaseline on the nozzles, though, it still gunks up pretty quickly, but wipes off easily if you wipe it fast. So for the next room(s), I'll put on a belt over the suit and tuck in some junk rags to wipe the nozzle after each cavity. I'll also fashion some kind of headband to protect the exposed inch of forehead between the Tyvek suit hood and the goggles, and wear a long sleeve shirt tucked into the gloves, under the suit. It's hot in that suit even with a tank top on, but the difficulty of getting the little droplets off is worse.

Due to your excellent feedback and suggestions, I decided to just do the 1" of foam and then layer with batts for additional R value. I already had 4 rolls of insulation batts that I bought before I knew you could do foam yourself, and it seemed more cost-efficient to go this way. I checked their website and they do list this as a possibility and even the best choice in some situations, though of course they recommend just buying more foam and doing full-foam the majority of the time. I can't help but believe that's at least in part because it would make them more money. So, I feel OK with foam + batts and know that even if going full-foam would give me a little more R value than foam + batts, this will still be dramatically better than what I had before and my pocketbook will thank me.

Now, to carry all the sheet rock up there and get it up. Then, tape + mud. Then, start tearing down plaster and lathe in other rooms and start the process all over again. Sighhhh. If anyone finds themselves headed to Vermont and inexplicably wants to spend their time doing hot, sweaty, tedious work, just let me know. :) Thank you all so much for your help with this. I often feel completely alone and my few friends/acquaintances think I'm crazy to be trying to do these kinds of things. My poor mother begins hyperventilating at even the mention of my using a tool or anything that has chemicals in it. It's nice to have some people who don't act like it's insane to do these things yourself!

Rural

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Re: Spray Foam DIY
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2013, 09:56:32 AM »
Sorry to hear about the flooding. Glad you were able to get it done. I found getting it off the floor was not hard, but then my floor is sealed concrete. Hope it works out as well for you.

I think the inch or so of foam combined with batts is a wise strategy as long as it costs you less. Do price batts to be sure once you run out of the ones you've already bought.

Congratulations!

 

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