Author Topic: Solar panels, used...  (Read 8524 times)

MoonShadow

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Solar panels, used...
« on: September 14, 2015, 05:23:11 PM »
I need an experienced opinion from the forum.  I'm looking at this set of used solar panels...

http://louisville.craigslist.org/ele/5214131019.html

I need to know a few things.  First, is this a good price for a used array?  Second, since I don't need the Enphase invertors, is there a secondary market just for the invertors?  Finally, I intend to mount these on my roof as an East-West dual array, three panels on each side; then run the DC power directly through a power controller or charge controller to an invertor to power a single 120 volt refrigerator.  There will be no batteries nor grid tie involved, just a power relay (controlled by the power controller) to switch away from the grid circut in the morning when the sun hits the panels, and then switch back to the grid once the available power from the panels drops below the needs of the refrigerator.  I intend to use a DC electric water heater core as a diversion load, even though that may not be necessary.  I'd wager I'm doing something wrong here though, and I'd like the voices of experience to correct my plan if faulty.

forummm

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Re: Solar panels, used...
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2015, 05:37:58 PM »
So the refrigerator will not run at night? Don't store anything perishable in there.

MoonShadow

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Re: Solar panels, used...
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2015, 06:59:00 PM »
  There will be no batteries nor grid tie involved, just a power relay (controlled by the power controller) to switch away from the grid circut in the morning when the sun hits the panels, and then switch back to the grid once the available power from the panels drops below the needs of the refrigerator.

I highlighted the portion that you missed, Forummm.

forummm

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Re: Solar panels, used...
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2015, 07:39:09 PM »
Sorry. I must have gotten distracted halfway through. I don't remember any of that second half!

If you don't want the inverters, it seems like a lot for the panels. You could get brand new ones for less than that.

http://www.gogreensolar.com/collections/solar-panels

MoonShadow

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Re: Solar panels, used...
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2015, 08:53:30 PM »
Sorry. I must have gotten distracted halfway through. I don't remember any of that second half!

If you don't want the inverters, it seems like a lot for the panels. You could get brand new ones for less than that.

http://www.gogreensolar.com/collections/solar-panels

The prices on that site seemed incrediblely low compared to what I've been able to find elsewhere.  I started to suspect that they get you on shipping, because you have to ask for a shipping quote rather than have it calculated via a UPS or FedEx plugin.  And it looks like the quotes are by the pallet, so this site might be of better use for someone who needs 20+ panels at a time.  Have you used this site before, Forummm?  Or was this just the result of a google search?

MoonShadow

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Re: Solar panels, used...
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2015, 09:45:06 PM »
Yesh, it turns out that website is a trick.  I used the 'shipping quote' request form and the response I got was from a "solar advisor" trying to up-sell me rather than an actual shipping quote.

Anomalous

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Re: Solar panels, used...
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2015, 01:04:28 AM »
You can get new solar panels from legitimate companies for about $1/watt. As an example, http://www.solar-electric.com is a company near me; a quick check of their site shows 190 watt panels for $205.20 each ($108/watt.) Even ordering from Amazon, you can get 100 watt panels for $135 including free shipping.

Inverters can get expensive. The craigslist ad you linked includes grid-tie micro-inverters. It sounds like you want to go with an off-grid auto-switching system though, so as you said you'd need a different inverter. The off-grid auto-switching system is a pretty uncommon setup, but I've read of a few people doing that so it can work.

However, as far as I'm aware, no off-grid inverter will work without a battery. The battery is needed to regulate the power coming from the solar panel and charge controller, and handle momentary interruptions of the sunlight (passing cloud, etc.) If you're only going to use power when the sun is shining, a relatively small battery should work. You'll also need the battery to handle the high startup current requirement of the refrigerator motor (make sure your inverter has sufficient surge capacity as well.)

MoonShadow

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Re: Solar panels, used...
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2015, 01:19:22 AM »

However, as far as I'm aware, no off-grid inverter will work without a battery. The battery is needed to regulate the power coming from the solar panel and charge controller, and handle momentary interruptions of the sunlight (passing cloud, etc.) If you're only going to use power when the sun is shining, a relatively small battery should work. You'll also need the battery to handle the high startup current requirement of the refrigerator motor (make sure your inverter has sufficient surge capacity as well.)

Well, I'm still considering a small battery, such as a marine battery or two; but I still want the ability to remove such a battery from the system without damaging it.  This is where the diversion load (the DC water heater core) plays a role; as it functions as the resistive portion of the battery bank (lacking the energy storage portion) allowing the charge controller to regulate the voltage & power being fed into the inverter, by providing a (hopefully useful) alternative destination for excess amperage.  Without either a battery bank or a diversion load to serve this function, the voltage is difficult to regulate, and may require breaking the circuit from the solar array to the inverter to prevent damage to that inverter.  The advantage of using a diversion load instead of a dedicated battery bank are; 1) a battery can be charged, and then removed from the system, without harming the system; 2) resistive heater cores are both relatively cheap, and 3) typically last much longer than a lead acid battery bank.

forummm

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Re: Solar panels, used...
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2015, 09:34:38 AM »
Yesh, it turns out that website is a trick.  I used the 'shipping quote' request form and the response I got was from a "solar advisor" trying to up-sell me rather than an actual shipping quote.

I haven't bought anything from them but you can put things in your cart and checkout. And here's the shipping policy:
http://www.gogreensolar.com/pages/shipping-return-policy

The prices are pretty comparable to other firms like the one Anomalous posted. But maybe the shipping is more than you want for such a small order.

Anomalous

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Re: Solar panels, used...
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2015, 10:10:26 AM »
Well, I'm still considering a small battery, such as a marine battery or two; but I still want the ability to remove such a battery from the system without damaging it.  This is where the diversion load (the DC water heater core) plays a role; as it functions as the resistive portion of the battery bank (lacking the energy storage portion) allowing the charge controller to regulate the voltage & power being fed into the inverter, by providing a (hopefully useful) alternative destination for excess amperage.  Without either a battery bank or a diversion load to serve this function, the voltage is difficult to regulate, and may require breaking the circuit from the solar array to the inverter to prevent damage to that inverter.  The advantage of using a diversion load instead of a dedicated battery bank are; 1) a battery can be charged, and then removed from the system, without harming the system; 2) resistive heater cores are both relatively cheap, and 3) typically last much longer than a lead acid battery bank.
I've usually heard about diversion loads used with wind generators, where they're switched in after the battery is fully charged (I think this is needed on some wind generators to keep their speed under control, but I'm a lot more familiar with solar panels.) . If you have a controller that does some sort of load sharing to a diversion load such that only the excess current is routed to the heater, that may work. Most inverters will shut off in an over-voltage condition, and solar panels with no battery or load connected to them will often put out a high enough voltage to trigger the inverter's over-voltage protection. So your controller will have to direct enough current to the heater to pull the voltage down, but leave enough for the inverter to run whatever is connected to it.

I haven't heard of a controller designed to do this. Are you planning to use a commercial product, or is it something you're designing yourself? If it's a commercial product, do you have a link to it you could share? I'd be interested in reading more about it.

MoonShadow

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Re: Solar panels, used...
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2015, 11:48:56 AM »
. So your controller will have to direct enough current to the heater to pull the voltage down, but leave enough for the inverter to run whatever is connected to it.

You've got the right idea.

Quote
I haven't heard of a controller designed to do this. Are you planning to use a commercial product, or is it something you're designing yourself? If it's a commercial product, do you have a link to it you could share? I'd be interested in reading more about it.

I intend to use an automatic load transfer switch with a DC "remote control" terminal to handle the switching to and from the grid circuit, and a programmable charge controller with a pulse-width modulated diversion load terminal set.  Both of these are commercial products.  The first is commonly used on high-dollar houseboats and sailing ships to automaticly switch from inverter power while at sea to shore/grid power while docked.  The second is the type of charge/power controller necessary for a multi-source off-grid electrical system, as wind or micro-hydro power systems typically need to have the diversion load as a breaking system to prevent overspeeds.  They are often part of a high quality whole house inverter, but they can be bought as a separate product for quite a bit less.  If I could find a true-sine wave inverter of less than 500-600 watts peak output with a programmable charge controller built into it, I'd likely buy them as a set.  From what I have found, however, the whole house inverters tend to be larger and more expensive than what I require.  I can get a 300 watt peak sine wave inverter as a stand alone product for about $45 these days.

MoonShadow

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Re: Solar panels, used...
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2015, 01:05:05 AM »
Looks like this is not a new concept...

http://solar-trap.com/

Anomalous

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Re: Solar panels, used...
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2015, 01:32:40 PM »
Looks like this is not a new concept...

http://solar-trap.com/
I was backing that project when it was on Kickstarter. Seemed like a good idea to me; I was disappointed that it didn't get funded. It doesn't look like anything has happened since the Kickstarter campaign fell through. Note that this product does require a battery to function, so it's not exactly the same as what you want to do. If I remember correctly, the design here was to discharge the battery by 10% before switching to grid power (percentage was going to be configurable to use more battery if desired.)

MoonShadow

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Re: Solar panels, used...
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2015, 02:37:58 PM »
Looks like this is not a new concept...

http://solar-trap.com/
I was backing that project when it was on Kickstarter. Seemed like a good idea to me; I was disappointed that it didn't get funded. It doesn't look like anything has happened since the Kickstarter campaign fell through.

Yeah, I noticed that after I posted that last night. Sad, seems like such a good idea.

Quote

 Note that this product does require a battery to function, so it's not exactly the same as what you want to do. If I remember correctly, the design here was to discharge the battery by 10% before switching to grid power (percentage was going to be configurable to use more battery if desired.)

Yes, it calls for a battery, but it seems to use it just like I would a diversion load.  If I set the discarge percentage to 0%, a diversion load of the right resistance would appear identical to the device.  However, after looking at how the device actually seems to work, using a 35 Ah starter battery with the discarge limit set to about 3 to 5% would be even better.  It would allow a single solar panel (what the device actually calls for) instead of a two panel east-west array, and the starter battery would be available to 'crank' the fridge compressor.  Batteries are expensive, and they don't last as long as a second solar panel, but they are cheaper than the second solar panel. Decisions, decisions....

MoonShadow

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Re: Solar panels, used...
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2015, 02:47:32 PM »
I sent the project founder an email about an hour ago, and already got a response.  The short version is that the project is still going forward, with some redesigns that make assembly easier.  He basicly said that batteryless is possible, it's just risky (because you have to get the diversion load "just right").  He also said that even a small battery is better because it helps with the hard starts, so basicly what I said above.

http://solar-trap.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/smart-IoT-energy-controller.pdf

Anomalous

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Re: Solar panels, used...
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2015, 07:45:27 PM »
I sent the project founder an email about an hour ago, and already got a response.  The short version is that the project is still going forward, with some redesigns that make assembly easier.  He basicly said that batteryless is possible, it's just risky (because you have to get the diversion load "just right").  He also said that even a small battery is better because it helps with the hard starts, so basicly what I said above.

http://solar-trap.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/smart-IoT-energy-controller.pdf
Good to hear that he's still working on it. I asked a couple questions when the Kickstarter campaign was active and he responded quickly. If he gets to the point of having these for sale, and I haven't set up something else by that point, I might have to buy one.

If you want a long-lasting battery, you might consider LiFoPO4 batteries instead of lead acid. They're more expensive up front (about $400/kWh as opposed to $150/kWh), but given the deeper discharge capability and longer life they're more economical over time. The DIY EV conversion people have all switched to LiFePO4, but of course in a vehicle the weight and rapid charge/discharge capability are more important. Here's one source for LiFePO4 prismatic cells for reference (I've never done business them): EV West

The cheapest charge controllers are lead-acid only, but the more expensive ones are usually configurable enough to charge LiFePO4 instead.
Here's one specifically designed for LiFePO4 which does cell balancing: ElectroDacus
Here are two which can be setup to charge LiFePO4 batteries, but you might want a separate BMS since they don't do individual cell balancing: MidNite Solar Kid or Classic, Rogue Power Technologies MPT-2024. You're probably familiar with others that will work, since you seem to have done more research on charge controllers than I have. I've considered buying the Rouge charge controller because it's cheap but flexible. The ElectroDacus looks really nice if you're using LiFePO4 batteries, but doesn't work with lead acid. It does have support for two separate strings of panels like you were thinking of doing.

I want to set up a small-scale solar power system myself eventually. I'll be using batteries since one of the goals is backup electricity when the grid is down. I'm undecided whether to go with lead acid or LiFoPO4; the lithium-iron batteries are obviously superior but the up front cost is higher.

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Re: Solar panels, used...
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2015, 11:22:02 PM »
If I were to choose a non-lead acid battery for a stationary solar system, it would be an Edison battery...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel%E2%80%93iron_battery

Those things will outlive us all. I could put them into my will, and they would become heirlooms.

Anomalous

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Re: Solar panels, used...
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2015, 11:32:43 PM »
If I were to choose a non-lead acid battery for a stationary solar system, it would be an Edison battery...
If the nickel-iron batteries actually live up to their claims they're definitely the long-lived option. I've read conflicting reports though, and I'm not sure which side to believe. Even assuming the manufacturers' claims about longevity of the chemistry is correct, the fact that all the modern ones come in a plastic housing rather than metal like the original Edison batteries does give me pause. Plus they're silly expensive; about 10 times the cost per kWh of lead-acid, more than 2x the cost of LiFePO4.

MoonShadow

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Re: Solar panels, used...
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2015, 12:44:39 PM »
If I were to choose a non-lead acid battery for a stationary solar system, it would be an Edison battery...
If the nickel-iron batteries actually live up to their claims they're definitely the long-lived option. I've read conflicting reports though, and I'm not sure which side to believe.

Well, they used to be used on trains, but I don't know if they still are.  I know that they are used in power plants, because I have seen them.  They were in massive clear plastic, instead of the old fashioned steel.  I'd guess that clear plastic makes them easier to inspect.  They were arrayed in the "battery room", which was about three times the size of my house, so about 10K square feet.  I was still rather young, and I asked "why does a power plant need batteries?"  The answer was surprising.  When the power plant starts up after a shut down, the massive generators need the DC current for the stator windings.  Basicly a massive electro-magnet.  Once one generator is up to speed, they can use a massive set of rectifiers to start the next one, but baseline generation can't depend upon using grid power to start up, as a matter of regulations.  Each baseline generation plant must be able to start from a cold start without outside help.  Each one of these cells stood about 2 feet, and the room had it's own bridge crane so they could be picked up and moved around.

All that comes down to this.  If power plants are willing to pay 10x as much as for lead acid, it's probably a technology worth pursuing.  I know why they couldn't compete with lead-acid for cars, boats or trucks; they are just too damn large and heavy.

But like anything else, I'm sure the manufacturer could still screw it all up.

Quote

 Even assuming the manufacturers' claims about longevity of the chemistry is correct, the fact that all the modern ones come in a plastic housing rather than metal like the original Edison batteries does give me pause.

Why?  Plastic is more likely to last longer.  I don't think I've ever seen a steel lead acid battery case, that probably wouldn't even be possible.

Quote
Plus they're silly expensive; about 10 times the cost per kWh of lead-acid, more than 2x the cost of LiFePO4.

Yes, they are that.

Anomalous

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Re: Solar panels, used...
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2015, 01:21:13 PM »
Why?  Plastic is more likely to last longer.  I don't think I've ever seen a steel lead acid battery case, that probably wouldn't even be possible.
This is probably me being a bit illogical. I suppose as long as you keep the batteries out of the sun the plastic enclosures should last indefinitely. I live in Arizona at 6400 feet elevation though, and anything made of plastic that is left outside breaks down quickly. Greenhouse plastic sheeting that is supposed to last 3 years starts falling apart in 6 months, 5-gallon buckets turn brittle and fall apart after a few months (the plastic part of the handles beak apart even faster), plastic car headlights have to be re-polished every year, etc. So I don't have a good anecdotal experience of plastic durability.

Thanks for sharing your experience with nickel-iron batteries at power plants. That makes me a little less skeptical of them in general. I wonder if the companies supplying consumer-sized batteries are building them to the same standard as the industrial ones though?

We're way off you're original topic though, since you don't want to use a battery at all. Did you make a decision what solar panels to buy? From a quick eBay search it looks like the micro inverters sell for anywhere from $50 to $150. Assuming there's one for each panel in the craigslist ad, after selling the inverters the 1100 watts of solar panels would cost to $900 to $1500, which could be either more or less than brand new panels would cost.

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Re: Solar panels, used...
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2015, 01:25:59 PM »
No-one has asked "why?".

If this is about a hobby and an electrical challenge then that's great and I am totally with you but if it is about saving money, then I don quite get it.  Even if electricity consumption by the unit was equal between day and night, then you are only saving half the electricity consumption and spending a heap of cash to do so. 

Electricity is expensive where I am but I'm pretty sure I couldn't justify the cost of your set up for a half saving on the running cost of a 150W appliance!

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Re: Solar panels, used...
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2015, 03:00:05 PM »

We're way off you're original topic though, since you don't want to use a battery at all. Did you make a decision what solar panels to buy? From a quick eBay search it looks like the micro inverters sell for anywhere from $50 to $150. Assuming there's one for each panel in the craigslist ad, after selling the inverters the 1100 watts of solar panels would cost to $900 to $1500, which could be either more or less than brand new panels would cost.

Well, the guy with the ad never responded to me, but I found another offer, from the webiste mentioned in this thread (I think) earlier...

http://www.gogreensolar.com/products/abound-solar-ab1-70b-70w-solar-panels

These are, beyond a doubt, the cheapest solar panels on a per-watt basis that I have ever seen.  However, there are a couple of downsides to them.  First, they are made by a company that went out of business a couple of years ago, so there is no warranty whatever.  Second, they are made using process that requires cadium as a trace element, so they are considered hazardous waste if broken (much like CFL lighting, actually) and cannot be disposed as regular trash if they get broken.  However, I don't think it would be a good idea to throw away a broken solar panel into a landfill under any conditions.

I'm currently waiting on a shipping quote, and already have a couple of other guys interested in buying some of them off of me locally.

MoonShadow

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Re: Solar panels, used...
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2015, 03:24:34 PM »
No-one has asked "why?".

If this is about a hobby and an electrical challenge then that's great and I am totally with you but if it is about saving money, then I don quite get it.  Even if electricity consumption by the unit was equal between day and night, then you are only saving half the electricity consumption and spending a heap of cash to do so. 

Electricity is expensive where I am but I'm pretty sure I couldn't justify the cost of your set up for a half saving on the running cost of a 150W appliance!

My main motivation isn't to save money, but even still, my return on investment (without worrying about replacing batteries) would be about 7 years, which is actually pretty good for any solar system.  My primary motivation is to reduce my household dependence upon the reliability of the grid itself.  An earlier poster cracked that my food would be spoiled by morning, not understanding the 'failover' feature of the plan, but that would actually be incorrect.  So long as it's left alone & closed, and was well chilled about sundown, a typical well stocked fridge would make it to sunrise without going over 45 degrees inside a 70 degree home.  The key there is keeping the doors shut, and plenty of already chilled thermal mass inside the fridge.  Granted, it's not a good idea for your food to warm up above 40 degrees every night, but nothing is going to spoil at 45 degrees just once.  I've experienced many power failures in my life, some of which only included my actual home, but the longest I've ever experienced was 4 days long.  But I lived in the city, too.  Now that I live in the country, most of my neighbors seem to think that my 4 day outage was short lived.  That 4 days without power wasn't exactly hell, it was 72 degrees & sunny all week, but it would have been catastrophic if it had occurred in the middle of the winter.  As it was, what we couldn't eat had to be tossed out by the second day as suspect.  I lost at least $200 worth of food just that time.  Since then, due to a just-our-house failure (actually, just a portion of the basement) I lost well over $200 just in frozen meat when our I found our deep freezer hadn't had power in an unknown number of days and was all thawed and room temps.  I do have a genset that would run my fridge & deep freezer now, but I'd rather have a more permanent solution.  And if I get it done by the end of the year, I can still get a 30% tax credit from my state up to $500.  (So I don't want to go over $1500 total system, either)

For the winter power outage problem, I immediately installed an EPA certified woodstove upon moving to my, well wooded, country home on 13 acres.  Much like the solar fridge plan, I wanted it to be something that I'd actually use regularly, and not just be a backup plan.  My ROI for the woodstove & installation was only two seasons, because my fuel is free.  Even so, I have actually used it as an outage heating system, because my propane fueled forced air furnace decided to die in the middle of winter.  I know that I saved a couple hundred dollars in installation costs, simply by being willing an able to wait 6 days for a regular appointment, rather than drag a repairman out to the house at 10 pm on a Saturday night.

Anomalous

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Re: Solar panels, used...
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2015, 05:22:31 PM »
http://www.gogreensolar.com/products/abound-solar-ab1-70b-70w-solar-panels

These are, beyond a doubt, the cheapest solar panels on a per-watt basis that I have ever seen.  However, there are a couple of downsides to them.  First, they are made by a company that went out of business a couple of years ago, so there is no warranty whatever.  Second, they are made using process that requires cadium as a trace element, so they are considered hazardous waste if broken (much like CFL lighting, actually) and cannot be disposed as regular trash if they get broken.  However, I don't think it would be a good idea to throw away a broken solar panel into a landfill under any conditions.

I'm currently waiting on a shipping quote, and already have a couple of other guys interested in buying some of them off of me locally.
Also, I see that they are "frameless" panels which might make mounting them an interesting challenge. They're glass, so I assume you can't just put clamps on the edges. I suppose you could either build frames for them, or use some kind of adhesive on the back? That is a really good price though.

MoonShadow

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Re: Solar panels, used...
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2015, 10:13:56 PM »
It looks like Markus Loeffler, the one-fridge-off-the-grid guy, has one or more of the older prototype controller boards (revision 2, maybe?).  He said that he discovered that not enough people have the DIY skills needed to put these things together, so he's redesigning the controller as part of a completed system, with a 1500 watt invertor and charge controller already included.  Since I have actually have such skills, I offered to buy one of his older remaining controller kits.  He asked me if I knew anybody else that might be interested, so if anyone is still interested in this project as a DIY system; best jump on it before the remaining kits are history.


 

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