Replacing basement wood columns

[ShavinItForLater]

This isn't really a DIY question, but I thought this was the best forum to ask about this.  Does anyone have any experience replacing basement wood columns with steel ones in an old house?  I'm looking for advice about whether I need to do it, and if so, how to get a quality job done for a reasonable price. 

As background, my house is over 100 years old and is supported by wood beams and wood columns.  When I first bought the house, the inspector told me that the columns were showing signs that water was seeping in, so they should probably be replaced.  At the time (2005), the inspector and an architect I had worked with before said that it would probably cost about $1,100, and despite my new-homeowner concerns said it was a pretty straightforward project that any carpenter could do, and that replacing all of them wouldn't cost a whole lot more than replacing one.  As a stopgap measure before I closed the deal, the sellers had a local contractor (neighbor on the block) sister bolt some boards to the sides of the columns, wedged from the concrete floor to the beams, claiming that was the "best" solution, but my inspector and architect said that's not a real solution.  At the same time though, they weren't saying my house was about to fall down--just that there were some signs that water was seeping into the columns and eventually it should be addressed.

Fast forward to now, I'm looking to finish my basement, and thought it's the right time to get this fixed.  I got one ridiculously high bid on finishing the basement, but the portion of the bid for the column replacement was about $1,400 (with project profit/overhead separate, so I'd have to add that).  I have a different bid for the basement that is much more reasonable, but does not include the column replacement.  So I got a separate bid on the column replacement from a contractor who's done "hundreds of them", which was about $7,500.  WTF??? 

The guys who want $7,500 are baffled as to how anyone could bid only $1,400.  I asked the guy who bid $1,400 why his bid is so much lower, and the only clarification I got was that it includes replacing them with steel columns, but does not include pouring new concrete piers.  I'm no expert, so I really don't have any way of knowing whether I need new concrete piers.  The footings are presumably the real issue (if they had been done properly there would be no water seepage), but if the new columns are steel, then water presumably wouldn't be seeping into it regardless.

So I'm left with a dilemma.  At $1,400, I'd likely go ahead with it, just for the peace of mind.  But that contractor bid the whole basement project and probably won't want to do only the column replacement.  At $7,500, I start to wonder if it's worth it--the house hasn't been settling since I moved in, and might be just fine for as long as I live there.  I certainly wouldn't want to go half ass on something like this, but $7,500 is a lot of money for something that might not really *need* to be fixed.

Has anyone dealt with this sort of issue?

[James]

There are two issues here, the columns and the footings.  Replacing the columns from wood to steel at $1400 sounds about right, I'll bet the $7500 includes new footings which also sounds about right.
 
So you need to know if you are replacing the footings, which isn't something we have enough info to give an opinion on.
 
BUT, that doesn't usually stop me...  :)  If the wood columns have dry bottoms and the concrete under them looks sound, then you can probably replace them with steel and make sure there is a plate on the bottom to spread the weight as much as possible.  But if you are finishing the basement and there is moisture coming from the bottom that ss causing problems with the wood, then it would cause problems when finishing the basement anyway, so you would need to figure that out.  New footings doesn't necessarily resolve the water issue, it would just make sure the new columns don't fail.
 
So I guess if water isn't a problem as far as finishing the basement, and the concrete under the wood appears sound, I'd probably just go without new footings.  I would start fresh with 2-3 bids and make sure you know the exact extent of what each of them are going to do including quality of the steel support, size of the bottom plate, etc.

[ShavinItForLater]

Thanks for the input James.  The water risk and resulting degree of need to replace footings is very much a grey area:

1) We've had flooding before, but only about 3 times in 7 years, and it's never been what I consider major (grew up with a flooding basement where we'd get 1-3" of water down there after any major storm).  This is just a large puddle when it happens, and only after really exceptional storms (like the recent 7" rainfall in 24 hours) and it's never been apparent where the water actually came in--might have been through a wall or a window.

2) There are some water marks on the bottoms of some of the columns, and some bits of wood will chip away if you poke them hard with a screwdriver, that is what the inspector found and pointed out.  That said, the columns are dry and don't look like they are completely rotting, they don't seem wet even during the exceptional storms above.  I expect the footings could use replacing, but if it took 100 years to get to where it is now, I think it might last another 50 or 100 without getting to the point where structural damage would occur.  But that's just a very amateur guess.

3) The house was apparently the first on the block to get a concrete foundation--my neighbors houses built by the same builder all have stone foundations.  Who knows whether they used "sound practices" by modern standards when they were first switching over to concrete 100 years ago.  The concrete floor goes right up to bottoms of the columns, so short of chipping away the floor, you can't see what the footings look like underneath.

4) I previously did an addition, which wrapped a new part of the basement around the back of the house, lower than the rest, and two sump pits with drain tiles etc. were part of that.  For a long time the sump pit was constantly pumping water into my back yard (perhaps cycling the same water over and over).  Later to resolve that I had a plumber route the water into the sewer system, and it no longer constantly runs.  The new sumps may very well have reduced the amount of water that would normally be underneath the basement.

5) Some of the basement finishing contractors suggested putting drain tiles around the rest of the basement, chipping away the perimeter of the concrete floor to do so--the same contractor that bid $1,400 for the columns bid about $3,600 for the drain tiles.  The suggestion was just based on my statements like the ones above, they were really just advising not spending a ton to finish a basement that might then get ruined by water.  We know for a fact that we get much less flooding, less often than a lot of our neighbors.  I'm skeptical about doing the drain tiles, since I only get water maybe once every 2-3 years and it might not be so bad as to ruin things, but even sinking $3,000 or so as "insurance" seems more reasonable than $7,500 (plus another $3,000-4,000 if I did both).

The tough part is the uncertainty.  If it was obviously needed I'd just bite the bullet and spend the money, but it's anything but obvious to me.  My best guess is that I will not be living in this house 10 years from now--8 years is probably the max (when my youngest leaves for college).

Another contractor is coming out to bid on the column replacement on Friday, so I'll try to get some additional intel on the footings then.

[James]

Definitely sounds like a grey area.
 
There are certainly ways of finishing a basement that results in less water damage if it gets wet down there.  You can use treated wood for the bottom plate of the walls, keep the drywall up off the floor by and inch or more, use poly trim along the floor instead of wood trim, use olefin or similar carpet that won't rot and without padding, etc.  Given your limited water in the basement up to this point, I would expect that this would probably be enough to make the basement finished and usable without the drain tile.  You can even put plastic molded underlayment sheets under plywood that would allow everything to sit above a small amount of water without damage, I had a friend use something like that a dozen years ago, and the resulting floor was very dry with an added benefit of being more comfortable compared to carpet on concrete.  The same can be done with plastic sheets and treated wood, but that adds up to a lot more height.
 
But it's very expensive to later rip out a finished basement, place drain tile, then refinish it, so it's obviously a risk you need to sort out for your own situation.

[johnnylighthouse]

The 1400 bid may be based on new wood columns and no concrete work?  Is the concrete floor around the footings cracked or intact?  Are the floors above level-ish or do they show sagging?  If the only symptom is deterioration of the existing columns then a simple replacement  with like materials sounds appropriate, and could be very straight forward depending on the details.  On the other hand if you need new footings and there are lots of columns and other complications...  it may cost more.  Its very hard to tell from a distance.

[ShavinItForLater]

The $1,400 bid was for steel columns, but no new footings, that much is clear.  I was a bit surprised to learn that, but only because when they came out they specifically asked if we could not get a permit for that part of the work, because the code would call for a raised concrete kneewall to come up above the floor, even though that does not help anything structurally, so without the permit they said they could leave the concrete flush with the floor.  Now I'm thinking they are just expecting to take out the wood, put in steel over the existing footing, and just pour a bit of concrete over the top to level it out with the floor.

The $7,500 bid includes custom measured/cut steel columns, new footings, top and bottom welded steel plates, the whole nine yards.

There is settling on the floors above.  The hallway on the 2nd floor slopes several inches from one end to the other.  But it's a 100 year old house, and I think some settling is normal.  As far as I can tell it isn't moving in any measurable way since I moved in 7 years ago.  There is no plaster cracking, the floors I had refinished back then haven't shown any additional movement, etc.

The basement concrete floor is not cracked.  However, it is also not level, it slopes up and down, and the height of the basement varies from abuot 6' 6" to 7' depending on what spot you're in.  AFAIK this is typical for the 100 year old houses in my area.  That makes any raised floor a potential problem, because I'm 6' tall and adding a few inches might make it uncomfortable for me, and possibly my sons in a few years--every inch counts.  I don't want to have the floor dug out deeper because that would cost a fortune.

I want to keep the whole basement project under $20,000, we have the money saved to afford about that much.  I have a bid for about $12,000, but that doesn't include carpeting, the drain tiles, or the column replacement.  So, I could probably do the drain tiles separately and stay under that number, but doing both the columns and drain tiles would blow the budget.  The other "complete" bids were ridiculously higher, admittedly with higher end assumptions on materials etc., but when I look at numbers approaching $40,000 for a basement I throw up my hands and say why not just throw down some cheap rugs, run some electrical, paint the existing concrete walls white, and forget the rest.

[Midwest]

With regard to raising the floor and ceiling height - Have you looked at Dri-Core?  Dri-Core raises the floor 3/8" to 1/2" (saving the majority of your ceiling height).  Dri-Core is a 2 x 2 osb panel with a raised plastic backing.  It's not terribly cheap (1.25 to 1.50 per square foot), but it works.

We put it down in our basement.  Sump pump failed and the water ran under the floor into the drain.  No damage to anything and no long term issues.

The product works well as long as you don't get massive (inches) of water in your basement.

[ShavinItForLater]

I appreciate all the ideas.  I hadn't researched Dri-Core, I just took a look.  I'd be worried about the rather sloping, wavy nature of my concrete floor.  The Dri-Core FAQ seems to recommend liquid leveling compound for variances greater than 1/4", and I definitely have that, probably several times that.  The contractors I've talked to pretty consistently told me leveling compound wouldn't work well.  Even if that is solvable, I'm guessing I'd lose several inches even with a 7/8" subfloor because it would have to be at least somewhat leveled to the high point.

Separate from the flooring, I'm also debating what to do with the ceiling--it is lathe and plaster now, with what must be lead based paint.  The more expensive bids include lead certified removal of that, and leaves it open to the joists (adding an inch or so of headroom).  The $12,000 bid assumes covering the plaster with drywall.  I'm leaning towards the latter, because a) it's a lot less expensive, and b) one of the motivating factors of this whole project is having a quiet 1st floor when the kids are in the basement.  However, with about 2" less headroom, the floor height is a bigger deal.

I have no drain in the old part of the basement, it's just solid concrete throughout.  There is a bathroom ejector pit in one corner of it (that feeds into the sump pit), but it's not in the lowest point in the basement.  The sump pits are in the new part which is about 2' lower than the old part, and the old part is not sloped towards that area.  So, even if Dri-Core could be properly installed, the water would presumably just collect underneath the floor and stay there.

When I have gotten water (which again is just a few times), it just sits in a puddle in the middle of the floor.  I am leaning towards carpet with no subfloor, debating whether to even use padding or just glue the carpet directly to the concrete.  I am thinking about carpet tiles (possibly DIY), since then whether it's water or stains or whatever, I could just pull up the affected squares and dry them out or just replace them if they get ruined.

[Midwest]

You could always stain the concrete and use area rugs.  We considered that option also. 

We had carpet (sans pad) in a basement that got occasional water.  Unfortunately, water ruins the carpet and in my experience eventually smells musty.

Sorry the dricore might not work.

Midwest

[Landor n Stella]

Reading through all of this discussion, I'm a little bit skeptical that your investment in your basement is going to be worth it. Water is the prime problem with finished basements, and you might be headed for a lot of heartache and walletache if you go to all the trouble of finishing your basement only to have some of it ruined by water. That being said, it doesn't sound like your water issues are all that bad. So just taking care to install safeguards against severe water damage (like treated wood, etc) and if you are prepared to replace some carpet in the event that you do have water you should be fine. Musty basements are no fun, so just know that water in your carpet pretty much means replacing it.

[ShavinItForLater]

The bid I'm probably going with assumes metal studs instead of wood, and "basement drywall" which was described to me as similar to the greenboard used for bathrooms.  So, for the most part we're planning for minimizing the damage from occasional water--I just don't want to spend boatloads of money to fix what I consider a minor and very infrequent problem.  Since putting in the new basement with sump pumps, I've only had water once, which was after we got 7" of rain in one day.  We were out of the country at the time, so by the time we got back it was again just a mysterious puddle on the floor. 

I don't think replacing the carpet every 3 years or so would be the end of the world, but since that might cost a good amount each time, perhaps spending $3,000 for the drain tiles would be a good value.

My dilemma is the columns, which is only very tangentially related to water coming in the basement, it's more about the footings underneath the house and making sure the house is structurally sound.  If $1,400 would reliably fix it, done deal, but $7,500 makes it a much more difficult decision.  I'll see what I can glean from the contractor coming out Friday, and I'm planning to ask a structural engineer friend for his opinion as well.

[ShavinItForLater]

As an update--the guy bidding on the columns on Friday gave a ballpark cost of $6,000.  He seemed pretty honest and up front when I asked if he thought it really needed to be done, but still didn't give me a strong opinion either way, essentially saying maybe you should have a structural engineer give you an opinion, but even that might not help since the footings aren't visible without chipping out the floor.

Cue my structural engineer friend.  He came out over the weekend and took a quick look, and told me if it was him he'd leave it alone, at least until there was evidence of a real structural issue, such as walls bowing out or cracking plaster or moving floors or something.

So I've decided I won't do anything with the columns.  I'm still making up my mind about the drain tiles, leaning towards doing it.  Separate bids on that work is the next step (have 1 coming).  I appreciate all the feedback.

[James]

Sounds good, fits in with the idea of "It's it's not broke don't fix it".