Permits and Inspections for DIY?

[Insanity]

I see a lot of the goals of MMM are driven by insourcing work.  And I can buy that (wish I had the time  -- and I don't mean physical time, I mean the patience of the family type time :) ).  But for those that do major DIY renovations (i.e.: kitchen remodels, adding decks, or even some removals), how do you handle permits and inspections?  Was it something you had to learn as you went or did you not think about it? 

For the record, I was supposed to get a permit for a demo of a shed (other than collecting a fee, I can't understand why they would need that) that I failed to...

[Rural]

It varies by state, county, and municipality. I've found that the website of the relevant governmental unit is a great source of general information, too. If that doesn't answer all your questions, a visit seems to work better than a phone call for anything beyond basic questions.

We just finished building a DIY house, so it was complicated. Approaching officials with the attitude of "please help me do it right" (even if you know more about it than they do) really helps to smooth the way. Keep it non-confrontational.

[Greg]

I'm a design/build professional, and do a lot of permitting for my clients.  It helps that I'm a familiar face, but honestly I think that most of my "success" in the permit offices has to do with my attitude.  I ask questions because they have the answers, and I'm respectful and cordial.  For some small projects I walk out with the permit during my first visit.  I know some people have a bad attitude with permit and inspection officials and they don't get the same service or have the same inspection success.  Making an enemy of your inspector is a big mistake that will cost you money in the long run.  For people like me who make their living interacting with building officials, I think it's professional suicide.

I advise my clients what can and can't be done without a permit, and let them decide, with a stipulation in my contract that any delays, fines etc. from not pulling a permit is on them.  Often the law is on my side about that, but there are also liabilities for me relating to insurance and bonding.  Almost all agree to permitted work.

In my area (Olympia, WA, USA) anything structural requires a permit, as does plumbing, electrical and re-roofing.  It's mostly to ensure things are done well.. although that doesn't always work.  I've done plenty of remodeling and repair for folks whose original contractor was bad at details etc.  Our state has a website where you can check on the insurance etc. for contractors.

That said, I'm also a big DIYer and have done plenty of things on my own place that the local permit officials may have preferred were permitted, but I do know what I'm doing.  Rural's advice about them helping you "do it right" is right on.  Many inspectors not only appreciate it when you ask questions, but have lots of advice.

[Spork]

Like said earlier, it wildly varies.  I've had 3 houses:

1. I was a pussy.  I didn't do much myself.
2. This was in a major city (large suburb of large city).  Reading the rules as to what required a permit, I pretty much violated them all.  I dutifully tried to the best of my knowledge to meet relevant building codes (but ... I might have missed something) but I never ever got a permit.  All I can say is "this might not be a great idea" and "be careful and don't get caught."  As an additional warning: my municipality had a bonus program for the garbage pickup drivers.  If they spotted unpermitted construction and turned it in, they got a little extra something in their paycheck.
3. This was in the country.  The only permit required for an entire house build was a septic tank.

Greg probably has the right answer.  It might be nice to drag a knowledgeable contractor with you to the permit office the first 1-2 times... just to get the feel for how the process works.

[anastrophe]

For the record, I was supposed to get a permit for a demo of a shed (other than collecting a fee, I can't understand why they would need that) that I failed to...

There might be other reasons, but primarily demo permits are required even for small structures to make sure that hazardous materials (insulation, asbestos, whatever) and piles of debris are disposed of properly, and to make sure that utilities have been capped/turned off. Some of that stuff you might think is "common sense" but some people are not above dumping debris in rivers, etc. and sometimes there are things happening underground that you don't know about.

Otherwise, Greg is spot-on. Inspectors often know a lot and are happy to answer questions about most things.

[shadowmoss]

The codes office and the permits office have bent over backwards to work with me.  First I was in Honduras, then I was driving in from Chicago to Nashville to dot the I's and cross the T's.  A bad tenent had part of the house condemned.  The codes folks were nice enough to extend deadlines until I could get him evicted for not paying rent.  Then, the permit folks were great and explained what my (non-licensed contractor friend) needed to do to fix it.  Contractor friend is a good 'ol boy from out in the county and didn't abide by what the permit said.  Then he lied to me about it.  I'm in Phoenix now, house is in Nashville.  Another friend is living at the house and is pissed off about all this and is fixing it for me.  Labor intensive.  Codes and Permits offices are supportive and extending deadlines as they know we are trying our best with no money left to get it right.

I can't sell this house till this is finished.  I am not someone you want to talk to about how great having a rental house can be...  However, if you would like a really nice house on 3 ac in Nashville, TN cheap, let's talk.  The condemned part was a former deck.  The new deck will soon meet all codes.

[paddedhat]

As a soon to be retired (YESSssssss) builder, I am always interested in threads like this. Unfortunately, the correct answer is that strictness of code enforcement, requirements, and degree of difficulty is extremely local, and highly subjective. I spent the last few years suffering under code enforcement situation that involved a large engineering firm that contracted the work from my municipality. This firm sucks beyond words. They are only interested in being good little bureaucrats, and generating fees that have grown exponentially. When a supposed "inspector" arrives on the job, they are about as useful as breasts on a mule, and stumble around like the worthless idiots that they are.  OTOH, I have done business with extremely knowledgeable, dedicated and reasonable staff in other nearby locations. I recently observed  a competitor build the same house, in the same resort, at the same time, in two different code jurisdictions. They were both modest vacation homes. One code agency managed to generate $11K in extra work, and months of delays, while obsessively enforcing real, and imagined code requirements. The other agency complemented his craftsmanship, and was fully satisfied with all of his work. Hopefully, that illustrates the random nature of this game, and provides a clue as to why I count the days until my last customer is handed the keys to their new home. Good luck. BTW, In discussions like this I always recommend a set of "Code Check" tutorial books that are current, and cover the work you are attempting. They are available inexpensively at Amazon, and they are invaluable as a learning tool, and a double check of oyur work. 

[RetiredAt63]

When I bought this house there were several things I wanted to do over a few years.  I asked at our local county office for all of them, and found out what did and did not need permits.  So far my fence (for the dog) is the only one that has needed a permit, and that is because there are different heights for different setbacks from the street.  My air conditioning went in last year (major resale value , plus we have 2-3 weeks that are unbearable without it).  If I had been in town they would have come out to see the distance from the unit to the neighbour, but since I am sitting on an acre it wasn't necessary.  If I had put in a heat pump (Heating as well as cooling) I would have needed a permit.  Other permit requirements - change the location of a driveway, change the deck railings and steps.  No permit - new front walkway.  So every location will differ, and it may well differ in the same jurisdiction depending on lot size or population density. 

Everyone I dealt with was very nice and helpful - but then I was the same, we get what we give.

[jwystup]

Any thoughts on what permits I'll need to redo an entire kitchen myself? I plan on hiring out the rough-ins for moving the sink and the electrical work, and I'm assuming that the people I hire will handle the permits for that. I'm not moving any walls and hopefully keeping the drywall itself intact. Just demo-ing the current cabinets, building new ones, and moving some plumbing & electrical. I'd imagine that I wouldn't need any permits for installing the cabinets and fixtures, right? Oh and running vents for the range hood & adjacent bathroom's fan. I realize that these are things that could vary by district, just wondering if anyone has any insight as to what would normally be required permit-wise for this type of work.

[Spork]

Any thoughts on what permits I'll need to redo an entire kitchen myself? I plan on hiring out the rough-ins for moving the sink and the electrical work, and I'm assuming that the people I hire will handle the permits for that. I'm not moving any walls and hopefully keeping the drywall itself intact. Just demo-ing the current cabinets, building new ones, and moving some plumbing & electrical. I'd imagine that I wouldn't need any permits for installing the cabinets and fixtures, right? Oh and running vents for the range hood & adjacent bathroom's fan. I realize that these are things that could vary by district, just wondering if anyone has any insight as to what would normally be required permit-wise for this type of work.

You're right that it varies by municipality, but from my previous house (current one is outside of city limits) these are the things that required a permit:
* messing with plumbing at all (other than changing a fixture).  Moving, cutting into lines, etc.  "Fixture" doesn't include things like water heaters. 
* messing with electrical at all (other than changing a fixture).  Adding circuits, moving stuff around, etc.
* cutting into exterior walls
* taking down an interior wall
* fences (yes, really)
* sprinkler systems (or more correctly, the anti backflow valve that touches the fresh water supply)
* I'm sure I am forgetting something...

Cabinets, flooring, drywall... did not require permits.

[bandito]

As long as you do it code it doesn't really matter IMO.  If you get caught the fine and be less then the permit.

[Insanity]

As long as you do it code it doesn't really matter IMO.  If you get caught the fine and be less then the permit.

Watch out.  Code isn't necessarily enough for some townships.  We found that out during our kitchen renovations.  The Inspector actually failed things which were done to code because the township doesn't always think code is enough.

[ncornilsen]

As long as you do it code it doesn't really matter IMO.  If you get caught the fine and be less then the permit.

Uh, no. The fines in my area are 4x what the permit would have been...  it might be different in your area I suppose.

[paddedhat]

As long as you do it code it doesn't really matter IMO.  If you get caught the fine and be less then the permit.

Watch out.  Code isn't necessarily enough for some townships.  We found that out during our kitchen renovations.  The Inspector actually failed things which were done to code because the township doesn't always think code is enough.

This horseshit can usually be ended pretty quickly. Typically, the source of the problem is either an individual inspector, or local municipality who enjoys cultivating and maintaining a reputation as being a hard ass. The problem they face is that, yes they can indeed have a specific local code that meet and exceeds national standards. The way most of them get in trouble is that they are drunk on power and fail to realize that their "local code" must be written, available on request, clearly contain language that does not conflict with the currently approved nation code, is  approved by the governing body of the jurisdiction, and recorded as such.

I have occasionally run into this and innocently said, "Oh, I didn't know that you had a stricter standard, is there a copy available at the municipal building".  In most cases this brings the B.S. to a hard stop. In other cases it has gone as far as having to submit a request in writing, with a copy of the rules that they agreed to when they became a member of a larger code authority, ICC, IRC, etc.... in most cases there real is no more stringent local code, it can be a game that an inspector is playing, or just somebody who is unhappy that you are doing the work, and didn't give it to one of the good ole' boys.

[babysteps]

... in most cases there real is no more stringent local code, it can be a game that an inspector is playing, or just somebody who is unhappy that you are doing the work, and didn't give it to one of the good ole' boys.

Yes, but...in some cases there is actually a more stringent code...  Although usually when there, is code will be happy to tell you ahead of time.  One suggestion: ask someone who does work in your municipality, they will be able to tell you where your code office is in the helpful-rational-bureaucratic-"7th ring of hell and descending" continuum.

[long, related story]
We used to live in a town in another state, this town had in its code a strict clearance-from-cooktop regulation for cabinets - seemed to be off from standard by only an inch or so (and I don't remember exactly, it may even have *matched* standard but other municipalities were lax in enforcing).  Basically the town required any part of the cabinet to clear the counter by x" when within y" horizontally from any area above a cooktop;  many installers & cabinet designers had the main cabinet okay but the 'light rail' fascia that hid the undercabinet lights would be an issue.  Code was relatively fair in this town (I have seen much worse) and if you showed them plans they would check & correct you ahead of time.  There were many kitchens where the light rail returned to the wall y" from the cooktop (before the edge of the cabinet) - drove the designers nuts, but code was happy and it was a lot simpler & less $$ than moving the cabinets (and backsplash and...) up an inch!

[paddedhat]

Amazing isn't it?  Once had an electrical inspector strutting like a roster over the fact that he directed a contractor to demo. a new tiled backsplash to move an outlet 2" closer to the sink.  The sad part is that a lot of these bureaucrats delude themselves into believing that this insanity is correct thinking and that they are really performing a service for the greater good.

 I once was called to a meeting between an actual UL inspector who was costing my company $800/day plus expenses, and the local code inspector. They were AGONIZING over a few cubic inches of calculated volume in a school display case, that they literally had both crawled inside of, tape measures in hand. If they ruled one way, I had to demolish the outlets I had in the cases, if they ruled another, the sprinkler outfit had to retrofit a sprinkler head in each case. I told them that they had both lost there F'in minds, and that this had degraded into a Monty Python sketch that I simply couldn't be a part of........Didn't go over well, but at some point there is a grave danger of allowing your mind to decay to the point that you start thinking like these idiots, as your story clearly points out.

[niknak]

In my limited experience of dealing with inspectors when building a house myself I would first recommend visiting the building department with a list of questions you hope to get answered. Ask the inspector to provide any documentation. Show them you're there to learn.

If a visiting inspector tells you to make changes before you can pass inspection, have him put in writing exactly what he expects to see done. Make sure he's thorough. You are now armed with proof that the corrections you make will be good enough to pass next time. Inspectors will contradict each other as some codes are open to interpretation.

I wish I would have followed this advice. I now find myself going on my fourth "final inspection" because each inspector has tacked on more stuff for me to do in order to get a pass :(

[paddedhat]

In my limited experience of dealing with inspectors when building a house myself I would first recommend visiting the building department with a list of questions you hope to get answered. Ask the inspector to provide any documentation. Show them you're there to learn.

If a visiting inspector tells you to make changes before you can pass inspection, have him put in writing exactly what he expects to see done. Make sure he's thorough. You are now armed with proof that the corrections you make will be good enough to pass next time. Inspectors will contradict each other as some codes are open to interpretation.

I wish I would have followed this advice. I now find myself going on my fourth "final inspection" because each inspector has tacked on more stuff for me to do in order to get a pass :(

Sadly, the only value of getting things in writing is if you are dealing with the same individual inspector every time. I have been involved in countless situations where an inspector fails something that was already inspected and approved previously by one of his colleagues . Doesn't make it right, and sometimes there can be some real fireworks, but it happens every day. You are correct about interpretation. Two inspectors can look at the same kitchen sink. One glances at it for five seconds and says everything looks good. The next could flunk the under-mount for creating concealed unsanitary ledges, the dishwasher drain for not having a proper vent loop, the method of service disconnect of the dishwasher, the location of the closest countertop appliance outlets, and five other issues. It really can suck sometimes.

[stevewisc]

be present at one of the final inspections only to hear that we had to put an outlet on the end of an island in the kitchen.  She proceeded to explain how stupid it would be to ever use that with a toddler around and probably ruined his day.  Needless to say we never needed to put that in.  Just like people in other fields some inspectors are nice and helpful and some need a little push back to behave.

Having a decent respect for neighbors would suggest it is reasonable to need more permits the more likely you will effect them, but if your interior basement framing project doesnt effect anyone else then ignoring over controlling permitting seems fine.

[paddedhat]

be present at one of the final inspections only to hear that we had to put an outlet on the end of an island in the kitchen.  She proceeded to explain how stupid it would be to ever use that with a toddler around and probably ruined his day.  Needless to say we never needed to put that in.  Just like people in other fields some inspectors are nice and helpful and some need a little push back to behave.

Having a decent respect for neighbors would suggest it is reasonable to need more permits the more likely you will effect them, but if your interior basement framing project doesnt effect anyone else then ignoring over controlling permitting seems fine.

  Got luck on that one, island and peninsula outlets are not something most electrical inspectors will let you get away without installing. I just had one flunk a print since it didn't show up. I asked why he was wasting my time, since he knew that it would be there on the final? I had to drive to the office, take a little red pencil and draw an outlet on the peninsula. I then gave him that, "I hope you feel like an idiot" look.

 As for the whole, "no need for a permit if they can't see the work being done"  theory , you need to assess your personal risk tolerance on that one. The good part is not only do you avoid dealing with the cost and hassle, but it also keeps taxes down, since the assessors office hovers over those final inspection reports like a buzzard on a gut wagon. The bad is that some jurisdictions have pretty strict rules about inspecting homes prior to resale. At that point the inspectors are not too gracious when faced with all the unpermitted construction they discover. Another issue is bank and home inspectors, not unheard of for one, or the other, to check the archives for permits when a home gets resold. The stigma of "illegal" construction can get a buyer running for the door pretty quickly.

[TravelerMSY]

Bumping an old thread.

It appears in my city they're strict about plumbing/mechanical/electrical. So if I wanted to do something as simple as add a few recessed lights to an existing ceiling circuit, there's no way I can do it legally without hiring an electrician. And they require a special city license for the electricians on top of the state boards, so I can't even fly in a friend to do it.

[Milspecstache]

Good bump!

I got my Certificate of Occupancy last year and I had zero experience beforehand.  Thankfully I live in more of a country-setting where the inspectors are friendly and helpful.  Even better I found one inspector that liked to talk on the phone and was always willing to spend a few minutes helping me figure out the different codes.  I went to her for plumbing and electrical even though her area was general, all because she would answer the phone and help me.

I met the inspector on each occasion and only failed one.  Ironically that was the only inspection that I hired professional help to do.  It was the rough-in electrical and I had zip-tied too many electrical wires together (might generate too much heat) and I forget the other couple of hits.

All the permits and fees added about 5% to the cost of construction but most of the time I really felt like I was better off because of the helpfulness of the inspectors.  Big change from what I hear in most jurisdictions.

Any tips for dealing with inspectors?
Talk to them beforehand if possible to get questions answered.  Don't argue, particularly if they tell you how to fix a problem (much easier to just do it!)  Be there when they do the walkthrough as it will go much better if you explain any oddities.