internal engine damage on 2003 Saab 9-5 wagon

[retiredmom]

I just bought a 2003 Saab 9-5 linear wagon.

Two days after I bought it, the oil light and the exclamation point light came on and the car started chiming. The manual said this meant that oil pressure was "dangerously low" and I needed to pull over immediately and check the oil to avoid extreme engine damage. I checked the oil and it was full. I continued on to my destination and it kept chiming, especially when I would brake.

For the next 3 days it did not chime at all, but I had been planning a 200-mile trip, so I didn't want to drive it that far without getting it checked out. They did an oil pressure test, which came out mediocre, but ok, and they replaced the sensor. As soon as I turned the corner from the mechanic, it started chiming again!

A couple of better Saab mechanics think that the oil pump is shot and that it might not be worth to repair, because that means there could be significant internal damage to the engine, in which case my $4600 car would need a new $4000 engine.

Isn't there any way to just pull the engine out and check for internal damage before committing to replacing the oil pump?

[Syonyk]

It really depends on what the oil pressure has been and what the sensor is set to.  They're usually a binary "OK/not OK" sensor (for the warning light) instead of anything useful.

If it's just barely on, and the sensor trips at a high enough oil pressure, you might be OK with a new oil pump.  The main items that would take damage would be bearings (initially).

Unfortunately, if you've pulled the engine and taken it apart enough to "check for internal damage," you're about 95% of the way to a full engine rebuild.  You might be able to pull the oil pan & check a rod bearing or two, depending on how they're set up, but that's still a lot of work.

Likely causes of this issue:
- Bad oil pump.
- Clogged oil filter with a non-working bypass (they're supposed to bypass if clogged, but this doesn't always work).
- Clogged oil intake, or a crack in the oil intake pipe (so the pump is not getting enough oil or is sucking air).
- Significant bearing damage already, at which point things are too loose, and it can't hold oil pressure.

I'd change the oil & filter, and see what happens.  When you drain the oil, look for a metallic sheen on top of it (and possibly send a batch in for analysis).  If you've got a metallic sheen, and a lot of metal in the oil, the bearings are probably shot... :(

[Le Poisson]

Great advice Syonyk - you know your cars!

The only thing I have to ad to the advice above is that you should have the mechanic who would replace the pump do the oil change. And ask him before hand to show you what he finds in the oil.

[Syonyk]

Thanks. I spent about a decade in the position of, "Fix my own vehicles or walk." I learned a little bit. :) And I still do most of my own work. I can just afford to farm out stuff I really don't want to do.

[FIRE me]

I just bought a 2003 Saab 9-5 linear wagon.

Two days after I bought it, the oil light and the exclamation point light came on and the car started chiming. The manual said this meant that oil pressure was "dangerously low" and I needed to pull over immediately and check the oil to avoid extreme engine damage. I checked the oil and it was full. I continued on to my destination and it kept chiming, especially when I would brake.

Oh dear, that doesn't sound good so soon after purchase.

Have you contacted the seller? I know it is a used car, but what do they have to say about it?

Definitely change the oil and filter. If the warning light gets worse just after the oil change, you probably have been cheated on the purchase. If fresh oil makes the problem worse, the seller probably knew of the problem, and loaded the motor with high viscosity oil and thick additives like STP.

How many miles does the vehicle have on it? High mileage motors often run lower oil pressure. As long as they aren't knocking, they may last for quite a while in that state.

When the warning light was on, or afterwards, did the engine sound like a diesel (that rattling knock)? Or even "clicky", like a sewing machine? If not, you probably don't have severe damage.

For the next 3 days it did not chime at all, but I had been planning a 200-mile trip, so I didn't want to drive it that far without getting it checked out. They did an oil pressure test, which came out mediocre, but ok, and they replaced the sensor. As soon as I turned the corner from the mechanic, it started chiming again!

A couple of better Saab mechanics think that the oil pump is shot and that it might not be worth to repair, because that means there could be significant internal damage to the engine, in which case my $4600 car would need a new $4000 engine.

Isn't there any way to just pull the engine out and check for internal damage before committing to replacing the oil pump?

Not practical. Unfortunately, by the time you pay the labor to remove the engine and tear it down, adding the labor and parts cost of replacing the oil pump would be trivial.

This is a long shot, but you also might want to make sure the engine has the correct dip stick installed. Sometimes they get lost (left at a filling station) the replaced with an incorrect length stick that shows full when it is actually low.

One way to make sure would be to check the oil right after an oil change when you are sure the correct amount of oil was added.

[thurston howell iv]

Have your mechanic drop the oil pan and see if there is any damage. Might have a clogged pickup screen.
This is relatively simple on that engine and should be a pretty cost effective way to rule that out and maybe be able to get a peek at the guts to make sure there are no glaring issues.

[retiredmom]

Thanks for all the replies! I'm back from my weekend trip (taken in a rental car) and I'm ready to tackle the problem.

The car has 87k miles. The seller bought it about 1 year and 5k miles ago. It did have a clogged pickup screen (about 80% clogged according to him) at that point. He fixed it by dropping the oil pan and cleaning everything out well, but he did not replace the oil pump. He dropped it again and cleaned it out again the week before I bought it. He says it was about 5% clogged at that point.

The engine makes no bad noises *at all* and the car had no problems running, starting, etc. The only symptom is the oil pressure light.

The seller is not willing to take the car back, but he is willing to replace the oil pump and install a real oil pressure gauge (current set up is just the stock "dummy light") if I buy the parts. ($150-200 in parts, saving me at least $300 in labor, probably more) He'd do this while I was there, so I could learn how to do it.

I feel like this is definitely the Mustachian thing to do, but obviously there is a risk, as I might spend $250 in parts/supplies/oil, only to find out that the damn thing actually needs a new engine.

[Le Poisson]

A quick google search brought this up: http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232437

Looks like you are not alone. In face google autocomplete brings up the oil pressure light as you type in the car, so I'm guessing its a common search. I know nothing about this car/problem beyond one google search.

[jabba]

I've been a part-time mechanic for over ten years and I stay current with things, so I work on just about anything from '60s carburetors, to advanced fuel injection systems in late model BMWs, and up until about two months ago, I would have been all but 100% sure that your engine is toast and to walk away from it.

But two months ago, this identical situation happened to me. I bought a used pickup truck for my brother and did some work on it, and then I was on my way to delivering it to him 600 miles away. About an hour into the trip, the oil pressure light came on and the gauge dropped to 0, but I knew that the oil sender for the gauge was primitive and would essentially read 0 for any pressure below 30psi. It came back on and off a few times, and since the thing still ran fine and wasn't making any weird noise, I kept driving, thinking the oil pressure sender was just defective. A few hours later on the trip, I slowed down for some traffic and rolled down the window and heard the top end of the engine make some light ticking noise, so I thought "oh crap, there *is* a problem". I finally got to a small town and went to the first auto shop I could find and explained the situation and they agreed that either the sender is bad, or there really is an oil pressure problem and irreversible damage is already done, so I might as well take it to a junkyard.

Well, I spent a few hours at that shop consulting with the owner about it, and we both used our years of experience in the field to narrow down what the issue could be (after trying to replacement oil pressure senders and a mechanical oil pressure gauge). Neither of us had ever seen a situation where an oil pump could partially fail. It's always bad bearings or a full failure and there is no scenario that could result in us fixing this problem for less than the cost of an engine rebuild.

I was essentially stranded halfway between my place and my brother's place and I decided that there could be an off chance that the oil pump alone had started to fail, but since we still had *some* oil pressure, around 7-10psi, and the spec for that engine was that 7psi was the minimum required to not cause damage, that there was a slim chance that we could put in a new oil pump and be good to go. The shop owner disagreed with me and was not willing to take the oil pan off for exploratory surgery. I limped the truck over to a different shop that was more willing and instructed them to take the oil pan off, inspect the main and rod bearings and if no significant damage is found, to go ahead and replace the oil pump and put the thing back on the road. I rented a car and drove down the rest of the way to meet my brother.

That shop called me the next day and said the main and rod bearings looked great, couldn't find anything wrong. They said the oil pump looked fine too, so they weren't really sure what the problem was. I asked them to go ahead and put a new oil pump and pickup tube on and put the pan back on and we'll see what happens. Another day later and they had it all done. I drove back up with my brother, returned the rental car and started the truck up and was met with a happy oil pressure gauge, no ticking noise, absolutely nothing wrong. We drove back down to his place in the truck and the oil pressure gauge showed the full 60psi the entire way. My brother has been happy with the truck for the past two months and no residual issues at all.

It was the strangest thing ever and all my training, and the collective knowledge of every technician at both shops that I visited in that small town would have condemned that engine based on the symptoms. It turns out that an oil pump *can* fail enough to have these symptoms and not cause permanent damage!

So, the way I see it, you have a few options here:

1) sell the car on craigslist for less than half of what you paid for it and walk away.
2) pay a shop to remove the oil pan and inspect the main and rod bearings.
2a) If they look good, put in a new oil pump and you'll probably be good to go.
2b) If they are bad, pay the shop for their time and sell it on craigslist for less than half of what you paid for it
2c) If they are bad, go ahead and pay the shop to rebuild the engine, or to install a used engine from a wrecking yard that has some sort of warranty on it.

Once you hit option 2, you will have some money invested and it will be easy to keep throwing money at the problem, but make sure you determine you cut-off point before going down this path. In my case, the shop was going to charge me $400 to remove the oil pan just to take a look at things. I had enough money invested in the rest of the truck and knew how much finding a similar vehicle would cost, so I was actually willing to spend the time and money on replacing the engine if I had to. If it came to that, I'd have paid the $400, thanked them for their time and rented a u-haul truck and trailer to drag the thing back home, where I have a full shop and all the tools and resources to rebuild the engine for not too much more money. In the end that whole trip ended up costing me close to $1200 between the diagnostic time for the first shop, some brake calipers that spontaneously failed during a separate incident on that trip, the oil pump replacement and the rental car. Had I been closer to home, I could have fixed all issues for under $100. I had set aside an emergency fund for this trip though and knew my risks and had plenty of time to plan for all contingencies along the way and was just basically playing out my pre-planned runbook on this trip.

So in short: make a plan, figure out all the contingencies and just follow the path that you set yourself on. Yes it will cost money, but in the end, it might not cost as much as you think and it could still prove to be a good investment in the long term. If you end up spending a total of $8k on this vehicle, but it lasts you ten years without incident, you'll be miles ahead of buying a car for $8k that breaks down in 2 years with a similarly expensive problem. My brother's truck is worth about $2k, and after all is said and done, it cost him upwards of $6k (due to all the other work I did before bringing it to him), but it has new suspension, new head gaskets, new oil pump, new brakes and basically it's not going to need *anything* for a few years other than oil changes. And $6k for a reliable vehicle that suits his needs perfectly that won't need any maintenance for a long time is a much better position to be in than a car payment, or a car that nickel and dimes you to death slowly.

[jabba]

Also, a side note, once you get it all fixed up. Some engines are notorious for oil sludge buildup, and it sounds like this is one of them. It's also a common thing on the VW 1.8 turbo-charged engines. I believe it has to do with the oil getting overheated by the turbo. The best advice is to keep on top of oil changes. Use a high quality synthetic oil and change it often. 99% of the time the differences in motor oils are basically about who has better marketing techniques, but in an application where oil sludge is a common problem, if it were my car, I'd make sure to use the proper weight of oil recommended by the manufacturer, get the highest quality brand, like Castrol, Valvoline, or OEM brand from the dealer, full synthetic and change it every 3000 miles. And yes, this is probably excessive, but it's a small cost for the peace of mind of knowing you are keeping the oil sludge at bay.

[retiredmom]

Yes, this is one of those cars that is notorious for the oil sludge thing. I even knew that *before* I bought the car, but it was a case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing, because I felt like, "Oh, the oil pan has been dropped and cleaned and it has been on good oil with frequent changes for the past year and the turbo is in good shape, so I'm all goood!"

If I keep the car, I will definitely be putting a high-quality, thick/summer, 100% synthetic oil in when we change the oil pump, and I will be changing it twice a year (spring/fall) or more often if I end up putting 3000 miles on in any given season (unlikely).

I just hate that there is no way to tell if the bearings are trashed without doing more work than the seller is likely to be willing to do with me. But I guess there are never any guarantees in life, and there would be some value to having a car that cost $8-9k, is insurable at 2003 rates, and would have a new or fully rebuilt engine, so I guess even that scenario would be OK, if not ideal.

[Syonyk]

Oil analysis can tell you a lot.

Metallic sheen: Bearings are probably toast.
Send the oil in to Blackstone or similar, and they can tell you if there are excessive amounts of bearing metal in the oil.

[retiredmom]

I know you mentioned sending it for analysis above, but it sounded super complicated. Glad you repeated it, because it looks like they send a kit to you for free and then it just costs $25 for them to do the analysis. I just requested the kit!

[Syonyk]

Yup.  They won't be able to tell you a huge amount since it's the first analysis for your car, but they'll be able to tell you if there's a lot of bearing metals in your oil (assuming you don't have a sheen of bearing metal on top of the oil - if it looks glittery, that's bad).

Given the history of this vehicle, if you do determine the engine is in decent shape and you're going to keep running it (with a new oil pump if needed), oil analysis might be worth continuing - the trends for an individual car are what matter, and you can often see things in oil analysis long before the engine has any other signs of problems.

[mtn]

You have oil sludge. We had it in ours, GM Paid for a new engine and install after we called dealers and mechanics across 4 states to compile all the oil change records.

Sad, I love these cars and would love to own another, but the orphan brand+sludge chance+they're getting older and they aren't the easiest things to work on means I probably won't have another until I can have a reliable fun car.

[retiredmom]

Do you have a picture of what this would look like vs. what the oil *should* look like? I literally don't remember the last time I changed the oil on a car, but I haven't owned one for almost ten years, so over a decade for sure.

[retiredmom]

My last reply was for Syonyk.

mtn, are you saying that IYO, there is no chance the oil sludge *didn't* already cause serious engine damage, even though it was cleaned out twice within the past year? Or do you mean that even if I managed to avoid serious damage and get a new oil pump and keep the oil changed every 3k miles, this will keep happening and I will eventually kill the engine?

[mtn]

Well, I've been out of SAAB's for about 4 years now, so take everything with a grain of salt--I recommend asking this on SAABCentral.

IIRC, the only cost-effective way to fix this was a new engine. SAAB wanted to be like Mercedes and BMW and Porsche and have oil changes every [insert ridiculous interval here] miles. Except BMW and Mercedes and Porsche had double the oil capacity. So the sludge happened.

Did the damage already happen? No idea. Will it happen if you keep the oil changed every 3k and a new oil pump? Again, no idea. There are 9-5's out there that have 200k miles with no problems. Ours bit it at 120k. Most did before then. Who knows? They changed the design of the engine in 2004, I think, that made the situation better. I do know that it was a bad enough problem that GM extended the warranty to 10 years and a lot of miles IF you could produce oil change records.

[Syonyk]

Do you have a picture of what this would look like vs. what the oil *should* look like? I literally don't remember the last time I changed the oil on a car, but I haven't owned one for almost ten years, so over a decade for sure.

Sadly, no.  It doesn't photograph well.

If you have a lot of metal in the oil, it looks like a metallic nail polish.  I've seen it on a few vehicles (one wasn't from bearings, but was from a loose timing chain slowly eating away the case) - it's pretty distinctive.  If you know a local car person, they should be able to help you out with the oil change and tell you if the oil looks normal or not.

[retiredmom]

Gotcha. The seller is what I would call "a car person" and he's the one who's going to help me get this stuff taken care of, so I'm going to ask him to start by helping me decide if the oil looks bad. Conflict of interest, I know, but he's willing to help me for free, so I guess I won't look a gift horse in the mouth.

If it looks fine, I guess I'll just take my chances and replace the oil pump, and then send the sample in for analysis.

[retiredmom]

Well, its definitely getting worse, so I guess I have to send the oil in for analysis now and then dump some STP in to get me through the week. Sigh. Seller is sending me a parts list, so I'm going to order those later and then we'll replace the oil pump and put in an oil pressure gauge when he gets back into town next week.

[skunkfunk]

Jabba, I have also had a an oil pump "mostly" fail. Dummy light came on, mechanical gauge said 7 psi at idle and ~25 and highway speed. It would go to zero on a tight corner, too. I'd had some stuff fail on the top end, lifters, pushrods, springs, the previous summer. Some of it made it's way to the bottom of the pan, and a clip from a lifter made its way into the oil filter somehow. Probably what damaged the pump. I'd fixed that probably 2 years prior, it actually happened twice before I pulled the heads off and had them machined so that it wouldn't happen again.

Anyway, I pulled the pan and inspected things. A bit of metal dust built up in the pan, but bearings and everything alright. $80 in pump and gaskets, it's working perfectly now. That was almost a year ago, and I waited many months before fixing it. Sometimes that stuff is more resilient than you'd expect. I waited that long because I was pretty sure that motor was toast.

The top end definitely made some knocking and it didn't run very well. I know my car wasn't a Saab or anything like it, though, but I wouldn't be surprised if the new pump fixes it.

[paddedhat]

IIRC, the only cost-effective way to fix this was a new engine. SAAB wanted to be like Mercedes and BMW and Porsche and have oil changes every [insert ridiculous interval here] miles. Except BMW and Mercedes and Porsche had double the oil capacity. So the sludge happened.

  You point out one of the biggest frauds going. The 10-15K change schedules and the maintenance minders that let the car go to 10-12K before recommending a change, are pure bullshit, even if the crankcase holds nine qts. instead of the old five. I have a few buddies that run a shop that does lots of after warranty work on high end eurotrash. Several times a year a poor sucker rolls in with a $50K car with 120-150K on the ODO, and internal motor issues. The majority of these turn out real bad, since there is extensive, premature wear to complicated variable valve systems, turbos, or other delicate, and expensive parts. Bottom line is that oil gets dirty, and running it for 2-3 times as long as it really should be in the motor means that you are effectively grinding the hell out of the internals with dirty oil. Changing oil every 5K is cheap and easy. Fifteen years ago I had a new car that was famous for sludging, with the 2.7L Dodge V6. It has never gone past 5K on a change and it currently has over 300k on it, and runs great. It spend four years doing daily loaner duty at the aforementioned shop, and even that didn't kill it. That motor, with changes at 10K can't even make it to 100K.

[mtn]

IIRC, the only cost-effective way to fix this was a new engine. SAAB wanted to be like Mercedes and BMW and Porsche and have oil changes every [insert ridiculous interval here] miles. Except BMW and Mercedes and Porsche had double the oil capacity. So the sludge happened.

  You point out one of the biggest frauds going. The 10-15K change schedules and the maintenance minders that let the car go to 10-12K before recommending a change, are pure bullshit, even if the crankcase holds nine qts. instead of the old five. I have a few buddies that run a shop that does lots of after warranty work on high end eurotrash. Several times a year a poor sucker rolls in with a $50K car with 120-150K on the ODO, and internal motor issues. The majority of these turn out real bad, since there is extensive, premature wear to complicated variable valve systems, turbos, or other delicate, and expensive parts. Bottom line is that oil gets dirty, and running it for 2-3 times as long as it really should be in the motor means that you are effectively grinding the hell out of the internals with dirty oil. Changing oil every 5K is cheap and easy. Fifteen years ago I had a new car that was famous for sludging, with the 2.7L Dodge V6. It has never gone past 5K on a change and it currently has over 300k on it, and runs great. It spend four years doing daily loaner duty at the aforementioned shop, and even that didn't kill it. That motor, with changes at 10K can't even make it to 100K.

No, not a fraud. Typically calling for synthetic oil and yes, it gets dirty, but much slower. Simple physics at that point, drop a teaspoon of sand in two jars of water--one with a cup of water, one with a gallon. Keep doing it for a week. Which one is cloudy first? Obviously if you drive down dirt rods often get it changed sooner.

In any case, Saab wasn't one of them; but that also had to do with the design as well

(Has had Saab, bmw, Volvo, Infiniti, Mercedes...)

[TheFixer]

There are many factors at play in the various "sludge problem" vehicles, in addition to the change interval.
To wit:
-oil is "worse" in certain ways today.  EPA regs no longer allow some very effective anti-wear additives.
-carmakers are encouraged to minimize crankcase oil capacity to reduce the amount of used oil to be disposed of.
-turbos are hard on oil.
-some crankcase ventilation systems are ineffective, allowing moisture and pollutants to buildup in the oil
-filters are shrinking, to reduce expenses and toxic waste.

Using oil analysis, I've found that my own car @207K is happy with 15K change interval w/ good synthetic oil & OEM filter.
OTOH, If I had a Toyota with a 1ZZ (corolla/matrix/MR2), that oil would be changed every 3K, because it's cheaper & more reliable than allowing the engine to detonate.

[Le Poisson]

Also turbos - they are notorious for blowing seals and causing massive oil loss. Since this car has a turbo on it, you should really keep an eye the oil. Once that turbo sucks a bunch of oil into the intake, you may as well just hand your credit card over to the garage and tell them to take what they want.

At least that was my experience with Volvo's turbo. To me a turbo is just another accessory waiting to go bad now. I won't buy another car with one if I can help it.

[frugal_engineer]

Well, its definitely getting worse, so I guess I have to send the oil in for analysis now and then dump some STP in to get me through the week. Sigh. Seller is sending me a parts list, so I'm going to order those later and then we'll replace the oil pump and put in an oil pressure gauge when he gets back into town next week.

When you do the oil change check your oil pan drain plug to see if it has a magnet on the end.  Sometimes they do to catch the regular metal shavings (microscopic bits, not actual shavings) that an engine makes over time.  If it does have a magnet and there is a lot of metal on there it could give you another diagnostic piece of info.

[paddedhat]

No, not a fraud. Typically calling for synthetic oil and yes, it gets dirty, but much slower. Simple physics at that point, drop a teaspoon of sand in two jars of water--one with a cup of water, one with a gallon. Keep doing it for a week. Which one is cloudy first? Obviously if you drive down dirt rods often get it changed sooner.

In any case, Saab wasn't one of them; but that also had to do with the design as well

(Has had Saab, bmw, Volvo, Infiniti, Mercedes...)

Well, I guess I'll just stick with real world experience from several professional mechanics I know who often spend a few days tearing down late model, high end cars with relatively low miles (100-150k) , and hand customers invoices for $6-10K for major engine repair, or replacement, on the very cars you claim to have owned. The common denominator of all these failures are high mile oil change intervals.

If anybody else is interested in real world experiences of following manufacturer's maintenance schedules, and the disasters they create, check out http://blog.modbargains.com/15000-mile-oil-change-myth/ This blog also posts a lot of the TSBs (service bulletins) from various brands who quietly tell the front line service folks to cut change schedules by thousands of miles, or to ignore the maintenance minders, and change oil well before the computer recommends doing the work.

The mechanics I deal with have seen the 2.7 Dodge motor I refer to fail before 80K, if the oil is changed at 10k. My old Dodge is well past 300K and I just saw a report of one that is at 540K. Do whatever floats your boat, but be aware that the manufacturers are rolling back extended changes for a reason. They cause premature wear and failure. I never jumped on board with the idea since there has always been plenty of evidence that absent a regiment of bypass filtration, analysis, and/or added capacity, extended intervals don't make sense for the average driver. I change every 5-6K with a $25 jug of Mobil one and a $4 Purolator filter.  $30 and twenty minutes of my time is hardly worth "saving" as compared to turning an $8K engine into a useless lump at 120K miles.

[mtn]

LOL at the thought of a 2.7 Dodge being a high end engine. One of the biggest turds ever.

[paddedhat]

LOL at the thought of a 2.7 Dodge being a high end engine. One of the biggest turds ever.

The acquisition of reading comprehension skills would probably enrich your personal life to a significant degree. Until then, lets review:

At no point did I EVER claim that the 2.7 V6 Daimler-Chrysler engine was anything special. As I am specifically not a marque snob, I really don't think that anything with wheels on it, and used as a transportation appliance, is special. Specifically, it has been my experience that those who think otherwise, in particular, Expensive Euro-trash owners, tend to be absolute fucking tools. Since you find the concept of anybody owning the aforementioned engine to be a LOL moment, you are pretty safe to assume where you fit in this hierarchy.

Now on to the point that completely alluded you. The 2.7 was famous for sludging. It can, and will fail after a handful of extended oil changes. OTOH, it can give extremely reliable service if properly maintained.  In my case, a third of a million miles with one water pump replacement, and typically returning 28-30mpg in mixed rural and highway use.  Given my experience, and the well documented failure of manufacturers pushing oil changes to the 12-15K range, I can only defer to your expertise. You are correct, there is no need to properly maintain an engine, synthetics are a miracle cure, and everything will go great with all your overpriced "statement" vehicles if you change the oil every 15K, or so. Good luck.

[Syonyk]

You are correct, there is no need to properly maintain an engine, synthetics are a miracle cure, and everything will go great with all your overpriced "statement" vehicles if you change the oil every 15K, or so. Good luck.

Given how most of those vehicles are owned (leased for 3 years and then returned to get the latest model, because who would want to be seen in a 3 year old car), that model works decently well for the original owner.  And the dealership.

You'll never hurt an engine changing the oil too frequently.

[mtn]

Paddlehat: I know you are, but what am I?

Settle down there buddy. You're putting words in my mouth that I never wrote and making inferences that are incorrect. Apparently I am as well--lets just drop it all and have a beer. Or don't, doesn't matter much to me what you do, but I'll be having an Okocim :)

[Jack]

LOL at the thought of a 2.7 Dodge being a high end engine. One of the biggest turds ever.

The acquisition of reading comprehension skills would probably enrich your personal life to a significant degree. Until then, lets review:

At no point did I EVER claim that the 2.7 V6 Daimler-Chrysler engine was anything special. As I am specifically not a marque snob, I really don't think that anything with wheels on it, and used as a transportation appliance, is special. Specifically, it has been my experience that those who think otherwise, in particular, Expensive Euro-trash owners, tend to be absolute fucking tools. Since you find the concept of anybody owning the aforementioned engine to be a LOL moment, you are pretty safe to assume where you fit in this hierarchy.

Now on to the point that completely alluded you.

If you're going to go off on a diatribe insulting somebody's intelligence, it's probably a good idea to not fuck up your own credibility by learning the difference between "allude" and "elude" first.

[mtn]

Also, Paddlehat, I'm going to address one thing: I am not into, as you put it, "euro-trash". Although that is rather judgemental. I am into cars in general. Fun or interesting. So while I have had all of those vehicles I pointed out, there also was the $300 Volvo, the Miata, Crown Vic, Silverado, Tundra, Maxima... Marque snob? No way. Performance snob? Yeah, but don't forget that a Volt is a performance vehicle too. I am an equal-opportunity car lover. I hate Corolla's, but they aren't bad and I respect them for that.

[guitar_stitch]

This is so far off topic now..

For the record, my 2006 Honda Element has been getting 10K oil changes all its life and only recently did I go to Wal-Mart brand synthetic.  I have done stop and go, long trips, and trailer hauling...in FLORIDA...in SUMMER... and in STOP AND GO TRAFFIC.

Engine runs great and compression/under valve cover inspections show no detrimental effects.

[retiredmom]

The confusing part to me is that the cat drives normally, but ten minutes in to a drive, those damn lights and chimes start up. So my oil pressure is definitely dropping below 7 PSI, but I'm loathe to accept that the engine has sustained significant damage when everyone who has experienced this type of engine damage talks about knocking and rattling sounds. Even when I've had to drive a full five minutes *after* the lights/chimes start, the car does not make any weird sounds.

[mtn]

The confusing part to me is that the cat drives normally, but ten minutes in to a drive, those damn lights and chimes start up. So my oil pressure is definitely dropping below 7 PSI, but I'm loathe to accept that the engine has sustained significant damage when everyone who has experienced this type of engine damage talks about knocking and rattling sounds. Even when I've had to drive a full five minutes *after* the lights/chimes start, the car does not make any weird sounds.

With ours, there were no chimes or lights or anything. We had the car die one time--just die, couldn't start it, pushed it off the street into the parking lot. Then it started right back up. Then after that, for about 2 years, it would occasionally have a miss. It felt like if you were on a bicycle peddling hard, and your foot fell of the peddle, and it took a second to get back into the groove. Then, it died on the highway--died, wouldn't start, no odd noises though. Towed it to a dealer the next day (wouldn't start), and they said it was the oil sludge. And had the sludge to prove it.

After every issue, it was taken to a SAAB specialty mechanic, and the oil was changed on the 3k mile basis.