Author Topic: Overloaded Electrical Panel  (Read 1327 times)

Jon Bon

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Overloaded Electrical Panel
« on: December 23, 2020, 06:50:31 AM »
So I have an old house that the electrical has been updated over time.  I suspect that a new light or outlet was run, and a whole new circuit was installed for just a few fixtures. No Knob and tube that I know of. Existing service has useful life left. Panel and main drop look fine.

The 100 amp panel is pretty full. In fact there are a few "double taps" that I noticed and am in the process of hiring a guy to clean up. I also wanted to add a few circuits so that the bathrooms are on their own dedicated 20 amp circuit per code.

My initial thought is to have my electrician install a brand new 200 amp panel. He said he can just install a bunch of tandem breakers to save me some money. So maybe 4-6 tandem breakers. What is the right call here? Difference in price is probably $1200. So my questions are:

1. Is his plan of tandem breakers safe?
2. Should I spring for the new panel anyways?

Home facts:
1200 sqft
Gas HW, furnace and stove
Electric AC and dryer
4 Beds 2 baths





Papa bear

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Re: Overloaded Electrical Panel
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2020, 07:06:53 AM »
So I have an old house that the electrical has been updated over time.  I suspect that a new light or outlet was run, and a whole new circuit was installed for just a few fixtures. No Knob and tube that I know of. Existing service has useful life left. Panel and main drop look fine.

The 100 amp panel is pretty full. In fact there are a few "double taps" that I noticed and am in the process of hiring a guy to clean up. I also wanted to add a few circuits so that the bathrooms are on their own dedicated 20 amp circuit per code.

My initial thought is to have my electrician install a brand new 200 amp panel. He said he can just install a bunch of tandem breakers to save me some money. So maybe 4-6 tandem breakers. What is the right call here? Difference in price is probably $1200. So my questions are:

1. Is his plan of tandem breakers safe?
2. Should I spring for the new panel anyways?

Home facts:
1200 sqft
Gas HW, furnace and stove
Electric AC and dryer
4 Beds 2 baths
Does your panel manufacturer allow for tandem breakers? 

Do they make tandem breakers for your panel?

Do you have enough open space on your bus bar for adding the neutrals? They should have their own spot.  You can always add another bus bar if that’s allowed.

If you answered yes to the above questions, I would go with tandem breakers.  Make sure you use gfci outlets on these as they will be in bathrooms. 

If you need afci circuits, my understanding is that the entire line needs to be protected back to the box.  So if you don’t have an open spot, you will need to mount an afci outlet at the box to protect the entire run of the line. 

If you are full up, then consider a sub panel.  Or of your box is old, cant buy the manufacturer breakers, etc, then maybe consider a panel upgrade. 


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lthenderson

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Re: Overloaded Electrical Panel
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2020, 07:44:39 AM »
I had a similar situation in the last house. After pricing out the cost of adding 200 amp service which included running a new main line from the meter to the electrical panel and all the labor involved, I ended up going a different and much cheaper route. I just bought a brand new electrical panel with more slots, all new breakers and more room inside for neutrals, etc. It cost me a couple hundred bucks back then I think versus the thousands it would have cost me to upgrade the service. The electric company provides a free service to come out and disconnect the electricity at the meter so nothing is powered. I spent a morning while everyone was gone from the house so I could work in peace, labeling and undoing all the wires in the old box, putting in the new box and rewiring all my new breakers up and putting them in place. I could scratch my OCD by doing a neater job than had been originally done. Then I just called the electric company and they came and restored power. If you are familiar with how an breaker box is wired, it is a very easy and safe DIY project.

sonofsven

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Re: Overloaded Electrical Panel
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2020, 09:30:02 AM »
I would spring for the 200 amp panel. Less cluttered, more capacity for future upgrades, good for re-sale. I generally value improving infrastructure over saving money, within reason.

BudgetSlasher

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Re: Overloaded Electrical Panel
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2020, 01:56:04 PM »
I would spring for the 200 amp panel. Less cluttered, more capacity for future upgrades, good for re-sale. I generally value improving infrastructure over saving money, within reason.

It is generally not the 200 AMP panel that puts it outside of reason. It is the new run of cable from the power meter to the panel, if not back to the transformer at the pole, and possible any grandfathered items that also have to be brought up to code.

Larger panels can be had without more larger service, sub-panels are also an option and 200 amp panels can have the main breaker reduced.

I too like to upgrade the infrastructure of the house, I try and make it every other project. But it has to make sense for my use. If the OP has lived in the house for a while and does not have issues with power consumption 200 amp service will not do them any benefits, unless they have plans that would increase power consumption.

To the OP.

If your current panel allows tandems then I would proceed with that route (some do, some only in certain slots, and some don't ... there is a reason they are called "cheater breakers"). If not you could replace the panel with a larger one, one that does accommodate tandem breakers, or you could add a sub-panel and route/reroute some circuits there. (I have a sub-panel in my garage workshop and most of the garage is on that panel, with the exception of the lights near the panel so I can have light when working on the panel).

Regarding the double tapped breakers, there are some brands that make breakers specifically meant to take 2 wires, if your panel is one of those brands, otherwise simply connected the two wire and the breaker by a pigtail is often a viable solution.


lthenderson

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Re: Overloaded Electrical Panel
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2020, 03:05:09 PM »
If the OP has lived in the house for a while and does not have issues with power consumption 200 amp service will not do them any benefits, unless they have plans that would increase power consumption.

+1 Plus there is a fairly strong argument that many things these days draw way less power than they used to 30 years ago.

BudgetSlasher

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Re: Overloaded Electrical Panel
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2020, 03:30:04 PM »
If the OP has lived in the house for a while and does not have issues with power consumption 200 amp service will not do them any benefits, unless they have plans that would increase power consumption.

+1 Plus there is a fairly strong argument that many things these days draw way less power than they used to 30 years ago.

Yup. Over the last year with real-time monitoring I haven't crossed 20,000 watts for peak draw (at 240V, which assumes balance between legs, that like 83A) and that is with an EV that draws 7,600 watts, kitchen with 2 ovens and high power induction stove, a  6,000 watt space heater in the workshop, and an all electric home brewery.

If we put in mini-splits or replace our second car with an EV we will probably cross the 100A threshold (we have 200A so we have plenty of head room).

Edit: I just counted and between the main panel and 2 sub-panels, if you count a 2-pole 240v and a tandem as 2, I have 79 spots filled.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 03:54:24 PM by BudgetSlasher »

Papa bear

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Re: Overloaded Electrical Panel
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2020, 04:02:48 PM »
If the OP has lived in the house for a while and does not have issues with power consumption 200 amp service will not do them any benefits, unless they have plans that would increase power consumption.

Edit: I just counted and between the main panel and 2 sub-panels, if you count a 2-pole 240v and a tandem as 2, I have 79 spots filled.

That’s my kind of set up!


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Papa bear

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Re: Overloaded Electrical Panel
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2020, 04:05:42 PM »
Jonbon - this your place or one of your rentals?


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Ripple4

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Re: Overloaded Electrical Panel
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2020, 02:13:49 PM »
Another option might be a critical load sub-panel. this could be done in conjunction with a generator/solar transfer switch or not. basically it would be possible to move 6 to as many as 20 circuits over to this sub-panel and that would free up that many spaces in the main panel, minus two for the new 2-pole breaker needed to feed the subpanel. if the box is placed near enough it might even be possible to pull the romex out of the main panel and stuff it into the new sub panel.


Sibley

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Re: Overloaded Electrical Panel
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2020, 07:56:03 PM »
Also check if local code is ok with tandem breakers. Some aren't.

NaN

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Re: Overloaded Electrical Panel
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2020, 08:38:18 AM »
Difference in price is only $1200 from installing tandem breakers and a new 200-amp service? If that is the case go for the 200-amp service.

jpdx

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Re: Overloaded Electrical Panel
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2020, 03:32:02 PM »
Yeah, $1200 seems like a bargain to upgrade to 200A service. Then you or future owners never have to worry about the panel again, say, if you want to switch an appliance from gas to electric. It just gives you more flexibility.

Are you sure you don't have to upgrade the whole service entrance, not just the panel?

affordablehousing

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Re: Overloaded Electrical Panel
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2020, 06:05:54 PM »
A new shiny panel, and power for 6 teslas? That would be worth way more than $1200 in my market. That seems cheap to me to future proof your house.