Home Wireless Network Question - do I have a germlin?

[BudgetSlasher]

I am having a problem with rearranging my home network. I am not changing any configurations (not that the normal consumer grade stuff lets you do that anymore), just physically moving items around. It is not working like I think it should, I have a theory but read on and tell me what you think.

Prior Working Setup

We have a Linksys Velop Mesh Network (3 nodes, tri-band, all communication b/t nodes/backhaul is over wifi). Node 1 is in the basement window. Node 2 on the first floor in the living room, Node 3 is upstairs in a bedroom.

Internet service is provided via a cable modem. Cable service enters in the basement, where it is connected via a splice connector to a single outlet (there are other, but none are currently active) located in the upstairs bedroom with Node 3. This splice is located where all utilities enter ... or at least phone, cable, and power.

The cable modem is connected to Node 3 via a flat ethernet cable, category unknown.

Desired Configuration That Does not Work

Node 1 moves from basement window to adjacent to the cable service entrance.

Node 2 moves from living room to master closet.

Node 3 moves from upstairs bedroom to upstairs bathroom.

Cable modem and ethernet cord move from Node 3 to Node 1. Splice connection is removed and incoming line connected directly to the cable modem.

Indication of Failure

All Nodes and cable modem power on. The cable modem boots and connects (power, send, receive, and online lights illuminate solidly). All Nodes indicate not connected to the internet via a red light.

All Nodes were tried at the basement position without success.

Halfway Working Change

Moving Node 3 back to the upstairs bedroom and the cable modem back to Node 3, while leave the other two Nodes  in their new location works. All 3 Nodes indicate they are connected to the internet via a solid blue light.

Now my Theory

Does this seem reasonable or is there something else I am missing?

It seems flat ethernet cables apparently have a bad reputation. Specifically they are more susceptible to interference.

I suspect that moving said flat ethernet cable to the basement (and next to the main breaker box, as well as near the telephone punch panel) is generating too much interference for a connection to be made.

If I am right, does anyone know if switching to a regular Cat6 cable would fix this, would I have to aim for a shielded cable, or is nothing likely work?

[Daley]

Shielded network cable is worthless and can actually make things worse if you don't have proper support for shielding and grounding across the board, from one end to the other with the cable and all equipment supporting it. Sticking a shielded cable into plastic network ports is basically going to turn the shielding into an antenna. Regular CAT5e/CAT6 will be plenty. Flat cables are garbage for anything longer than about 2-3 feet. The twisted pairs are needed to keep the little pixies from getting out of line. And if the flat cable has the little clips on the jacks on the same flat side of the cable, it's not even a poorly made network cable, it's a shoddy USOC cable where they reversed polarity on the tip and ring... but that's unlikely given it's already worked upstairs, so technically known good, but potentially dodgy.

As for testing WHY? You need to cut the wireless elements out of the equation when testing wired connections. These ridiculous 100% WiFi only setups are awful, no matter how good they're set up and easy to configure.

This said, relocating the cable modem, even though you connected it closer to the cable DMARC, there could be line quality issues with the coax and connectors you're using to change the wired location. On one hand, it's better to keep the cable modem closest to the point into the house, and ideally keep any (or as many) splitters or extension adapters out of the service line. Your cable modem should have a diagnostics page, you should check the modem status at both locations and compare.

As far as troubleshooting the wireless end, I'd try a wireless setup with everything in the new locations, but the cable modem in the known good old location and a known good cable (either coax or network) to bridge the new distance.

[BudgetSlasher]

Shielded network cable is worthless and can actually make things worse if you don't have proper support for shielding and grounding across the board, from one end to the other with the cable and all equipment supporting it. Sticking a shielded cable into plastic network ports is basically going to turn the shielding into an antenna. Regular CAT5e/CAT6 will be plenty. Flat cables are garbage for anything longer than about 2-3 feet.

Good to know. I'll avoid shielded. The run is probably only 3 feet, but the cable is ~6.

The twisted pairs are needed to keep the little pixies from getting out of line. And if the flat cable has the little clips on the jacks on the same flat side of the cable, it's not even a poorly made network cable, it's a shoddy USOC cable where they reversed polarity on the tip and ring... but that's unlikely given it's already worked upstairs, so technically known good, but potentially dodgy.

As you said unlikely as it is working. It came with the routers and has been working for years. It still works back in the old location. Speed test and latency tests have alway been acceptable, so why mess with it. Until now.

As for testing WHY? You need to cut the wireless elements out of the equation when testing wired connections.

There are literally none. We've got a couple cell phones, a couple kindles, a couple chromebooks, a usb/wifi printer a few smart devices/IOTs.

Wait I take that back, there is one network port its on the wall mounted TV ... but is isn't connected. I did pull an ethernet wire to the basement when I added the TV outlet just incase.

These ridiculous 100% WiFi only setups are awful, no matter how good they're set up and easy to configure.

I agree that wired is objectively better. But, sometimes good enough is good enough; we aren't gaming, we aren't running high resolution high refresh rate webcams.

Wiring the house for Cat cable now would be a real PITA ... unless I could commandeer the phone lines. It was something I looked into to doing when we moved in ... and if everything else on my to do list gets done I still might. But right now it would only function as a wired backhaul for wifi mesh networking.

I've been in and out of building computers and gaming over my life and always prefered to hardwire stationary items and if I ever build there will be at least 1 drop in each room.

This said, relocating the cable modem, even though you connected it closer to the cable DMARC, there could be line quality issues with the coax and connectors you're using to change the wired location.

There are exactly zero new components added, some are relocated and some are removed.

On one hand, it's better to keep the cable modem closest to the point into the house, and ideally keep any (or as many) splitters or extension adapters out of the service line. Your cable modem should have a diagnostics page, you should check the modem status at both locations and compare.

I have used that before for other purposes I didn't think of it this time for some reason. No clue why. Perhaps I will try it the next time I move the modem back downstairs, though I suspect with a wired connected it would not do any good (if as I suspect the issue is electrical interference preventing a connection b/t the modem and the router).

As far as troubleshooting the wireless end, I'd try a wireless setup with everything in the new locations, but the cable modem in the known good old location and a known good cable (either coax or network) to bridge the new distance.

That sounds good on paper and might be practical with an IT department with those cables on hand. I would have to procure a cable that can not only stretch across the house but down and around 2 flights of stairs to link the new location and the old
 ... I would be left with a 100 foot cable in inventory. And these days buying something that the final disposition of is "in inventory" is a hard sell with the storage space police.

Thanks for the ideas. I'll probably ask the DW to grab a spare cable from her desk at work and see if a decent cable works.

[Daley]

I agree that wired is objectively better. But, sometimes good enough is good enough; we aren't gaming, we aren't running high resolution high refresh rate webcams.

Wiring the house for Cat cable now would be a real PITA ... unless I could commandeer the phone lines. It was something I looked into to doing when we moved in ... and if everything else on my to do list gets done I still might. But right now it would only function as a wired backhaul for wifi mesh networking.

If the phone wiring has even remotely modern CAT3 (probably post 1990), you could at least quickly fake 10BASE-T with a few cheap keystone jacks and panels from Home Depot or Lowe's. When I replaced the phone line in my own house with network cable, I deliberately made patch cables that could bridge back over to analog voice if needed from the little network shelf to any jack in the house, and it's trivial to break a single CAT run out to two analog voice lines and one 100BASE-T connection. That's something you don't hear talked about much by the digital network goons unless they've got history with near retirement age AT&T linemen, are old enough to potentially remember networking nearly back to the token ring days, or actually spent the time to read and grok the TIA/EIA-568 standard and its relation back to both USOC and Systimax/258A. But I digress... yeah, if you don't have any wired equipment...

...but that's the thing, you should at least keep around some old cheap netbook or something with a dedicated ethernet port running Linux or something just for doing basic troubleshooting if your Chromebooks don't even have one, especially with high-end wireless networking equipment so "smrt" it doesn't give you any control. Properly troubleshooting network connectivity issues, especially on the ISP end, is near impossible over WiFi.

As far as troubleshooting the wireless end, I'd try a wireless setup with everything in the new locations, but the cable modem in the known good old location and a known good cable (either coax or network) to bridge the new distance.

That sounds good on paper and might be practical with an IT department with those cables on hand. I would have to procure a cable that can not only stretch across the house but down and around 2 flights of stairs to link the new location and the old
 ... I would be left with a 100 foot cable in inventory. And these days buying something that the final disposition of is "in inventory" is a hard sell with the storage space police.

You misunderstand, sorry if I wasn't clear enough. I wasn't talking about running an ethernet drop cord from the third floor to the basement. I was talking about running an ethernet or coax cable with the modem still hooked up upstairs where it originally was located with the cable long enough to still reach the upstairs node it was originally connected to after it was relocated to the bathroom, with the other two nodes in their new locations as well.

Thanks for the ideas. I'll probably ask the DW to grab a spare cable from her desk at work and see if a decent cable works.

Yup. It's probably interference, but it might be wireless and not wired interference despite the shoddy patch cable (or both!)... thus the troubleshooting step above. Though similar could be done by leaving the upstairs module in its original bedroom location with the first floor and basement modules in their new locations, too, without using a longer cable to the bathroom. This said, bathroom might be a bad idea long term. Steam and condensation don't get on well with electronics, and those APs aren't exactly outdoor rated.

[lthenderson]

I have no knowledge on what you are asking but I can't help but feel your question of do I have a "germlin" as being highly appropriate for this year.

[BudgetSlasher]

I agree that wired is objectively better. But, sometimes good enough is good enough; we aren't gaming, we aren't running high resolution high refresh rate webcams.

Wiring the house for Cat cable now would be a real PITA ... unless I could commandeer the phone lines. It was something I looked into to doing when we moved in ... and if everything else on my to do list gets done I still might. But right now it would only function as a wired backhaul for wifi mesh networking.

If the phone wiring has even remotely modern CAT3 (probably post 1990), you could at least quickly fake 10BASE-T with a few cheap keystone jacks and panels from Home Depot or Lowe's. When I replaced the phone line in my own house with network cable, I deliberately made patch cables that could bridge back over to analog voice if needed from the little network shelf to any jack in the house, and it's trivial to break a single CAT run out to two analog voice lines and one 100BASE-T connection. That's something you don't hear talked about much by the digital network goons unless they've got history with near retirement age AT&T linemen, are old enough to potentially remember networking nearly back to the token ring days, or actually spent the time to read and grok the TIA/EIA-568 standard and its relation back to both USOC and Systimax/258A. But I digress... yeah, if you don't have any wired equipment...

The house was constructed in 1992, the phones are a 4 wire (red green yellow black) that is non-twisted pair. It doesn't look anything like what comes up when I google Cat3.

...but that's the thing, you should at least keep around some old cheap netbook or something with a dedicated ethernet port running Linux or something just for doing basic troubleshooting if your Chromebooks don't even have one, especially with high-end wireless networking equipment so "smrt" it doesn't give you any control. Properly troubleshooting network connectivity issues, especially on the ISP end, is near impossible over WiFi.

In edge cases it is less that ideal. The next version of the network I will probably go back to something like DD-WRT. We used to have some old hardware, but most of it was dead for one reason or another, I could be a bit of a tech hoarder (looked a bit like a back shelf at LTT only cheaper). Those all got recycled.

As far as troubleshooting the wireless end, I'd try a wireless setup with everything in the new locations, but the cable modem in the known good old location and a known good cable (either coax or network) to bridge the new distance.

That sounds good on paper and might be practical with an IT department with those cables on hand. I would have to procure a cable that can not only stretch across the house but down and around 2 flights of stairs to link the new location and the old
 ... I would be left with a 100 foot cable in inventory. And these days buying something that the final disposition of is "in inventory" is a hard sell with the storage space police.

You misunderstand, sorry if I wasn't clear enough. I wasn't talking about running an ethernet drop cord from the third floor to the basement. I was talking about running an ethernet or coax cable with the modem still hooked up upstairs where it originally was located with the cable long enough to still reach the upstairs node it was originally connected to after it was relocated to the bathroom, with the other two nodes in their new locations as well.

That sounds more reasonable that my initial reading.

I am not sure what it would accomplish though. That is probably a failure of my explanation or something just going completely over my head.

Each Node/Router illuminates a status that is independent of the others. Red for no internet connection, yellow for weak signal to the next closest node, and blue for all is well. The caveat is if the Node that is connected to modem is red/no internet then no Node can be connected. Each Node's status is independent of the overall networks condition.

In a one Node configuration I would be dealing with a basic modem and router.

I left this out of the original post, but in fact I did just this. Moved the working configuration, Node included, from upstairs to the basement while the other two were still unplugged. The modem when through its boot and illuminated the light labeled "online" and Node still was red. I was able to connect devices to the wifi, but without internet connection. (I left this out because I was only attempting to ascertain if a bad jack on the basement Node was to blame).

Thanks for the ideas. I'll probably ask the DW to grab a spare cable from her desk at work and see if a decent cable works.

Yup. It's probably interference, but it might be wireless and not wired interference despite the shoddy patch cable (or both!)... thus the troubleshooting step above. Though similar could be done by leaving the upstairs module in its original bedroom location with the first floor and basement modules in their new locations, too, without using a longer cable to the bathroom. This said, bathroom might be a bad idea long term. Steam and condensation don't get on well with electronics, and those APs aren't exactly outdoor rated.
[/quote]

I know the bathroom might be a long term problem but... Layout wise it is either in the bedroom or in the bathroom to ensure coverage in all the places that I/we need it and I have been told to get them out of the bedroom, so bathroom it is. On the plus side it is a lesser used bathroom and I plan to place the router inside a armoire (I know solid objects are bad for signal strength especially 5ghz) which hopefully will buffer it from the extremes of the humidity swings.

[BudgetSlasher]

I have no knowledge on what you are asking but I can't help but feel your question of do I have a "germlin" as being highly appropriate for this year.

In the scheme of 2020 gremlins this is like the unpaid intern to the understudy of a gremlin level of problem.

[NaN]

I have no knowledge on what you are asking but I can't help but feel your question of do I have a "germlin" as being highly appropriate for this year.

Yes, the good old germlin of 2020, it is the mutation of a gremlin to the form of a spiky sphere.

[Sunder]

The Velop always needs a primary node to be configured. So it sounds like Node 3 always has to be plugged into you router. No other node will work.

It sounds like you have tried every combination at least  once,  but it is possible you got a coincidental false negative by not waiting long enough, loose cable, etc.

Oddly enough, I am about to get into crawl spaces this weekend to cable up my house, despite work giving me free enterprise grade WiFi equipment. Thing is, I do game and they also gave me high definition cameras. It made me chuckle a little to see the contrast.

I'm also using ethernet over power to get connectivity to the cameras. That's another option if you want to spend more money on this.

[BudgetSlasher]

The Velop always needs a primary node to be configured. So it sounds like Node 3 always has to be plugged into you router. No other node will work.

It sounds like you have tried every combination at least  once,  but it is possible you got a coincidental false negative by not waiting long enough, loose cable, etc.

Oddly enough, I am about to get into crawl spaces this weekend to cable up my house, despite work giving me free enterprise grade WiFi equipment. Thing is, I do game and they also gave me high definition cameras. It made me chuckle a little to see the contrast.

I'm also using ethernet over power to get connectivity to the cameras. That's another option if you want to spend more money on this.

I had forgotten the primary node requirement ... Once I have a better cable I'll try again with the primary Node moved.

I remember when ethernet over powerline came out, or was at least commonly available and it seemed to be not so great. Is it still limited to the same circuit? If it has gotten to the point that is doesn't matter where in the box, or sub-panel, the outlet goes back to that would be ideal.

Good luck with your ethernet project. One day one of my wishlist projects will require me to have network cabling and I will address it then, but there are way too many project ahead of it to dedicate the time to networking now. But, it one of my projects opens a chase between the basement and the attic, I will proactively pull an ethernet cable, or a few, so that I can get the first floor from below and the second floor from above.

[Daley]

I remember when ethernet over powerline came out, or was at least commonly available and it seemed to be not so great. Is it still limited to the same circuit? If it has gotten to the point that is doesn't matter where in the box, or sub-panel, the outlet goes back to that would be ideal.

Technically, still supposed to be on the same circuit. Real world these days? There are units that have unofficially worked beyond their dedicated circuit. TP-Link has some of the better priced stuff.

[Sunder]

I remember when ethernet over powerline came out, or was at least commonly available and it seemed to be not so great. Is it still limited to the same circuit? If it has gotten to the point that is doesn't matter where in the box, or sub-panel, the outlet goes back to that would be ideal.

Good luck with your ethernet project. One day one of my wishlist projects will require me to have network cabling and I will address it then, but there are way too many project ahead of it to dedicate the time to networking now. But, it one of my projects opens a chase between the basement and the attic, I will proactively pull an ethernet cable, or a few, so that I can get the first floor from below and the second floor from above.

As Daley said, technically, they are meant to be on the same circuit but mine work quite well on two separated circuits, doesn't even lose any speed, but I have only a two storey house. The cable runs would not be that long.

A few years ago, we did some leakage tests for a client of mine. They had some heritage listed buildings where the council would not approve of drilling through walls to lay new cable. But they were also a government agency with security requirements that wouldn't let them use WiFi as it was too interceptable. Turns out we could pick up the Ethernet over Powerline signal in the building next door, then it was just a matter of decrypting it, just like WiFi.

So, I would guess you could do it over separate circuits, but if you can test first or be guaranteed a return if it doesn't work, that would be safer.

Thanks for the encouragement for the cable laying project. A year ago, I would have just paid someone to do it, not least because technically you're supposed to be a licenced data cabler in Australia, for anything that has a physical connection back to a public telecommunications infrastructure.  But obviously as I am here... trying to be a bit of a tight*** :D

[BudgetSlasher]

I haven't gotten around to testing different cables. At this rate I probably will not until Tuesday.

I've added to my to my suspicion that EMI is to blame. I have another device that I wanted to move the same area to consolidate clutter ... wouldn't you know it it threw an error message the is specific to EMI/noise.

I remember when ethernet over powerline came out, or was at least commonly available and it seemed to be not so great. Is it still limited to the same circuit? If it has gotten to the point that is doesn't matter where in the box, or sub-panel, the outlet goes back to that would be ideal.

Good luck with your ethernet project. One day one of my wishlist projects will require me to have network cabling and I will address it then, but there are way too many project ahead of it to dedicate the time to networking now. But, it one of my projects opens a chase between the basement and the attic, I will proactively pull an ethernet cable, or a few, so that I can get the first floor from below and the second floor from above.

As Daley said, technically, they are meant to be on the same circuit but mine work quite well on two separated circuits, doesn't even lose any speed, but I have only a two storey house. The cable runs would not be that long.

A few years ago, we did some leakage tests for a client of mine. They had some heritage listed buildings where the council would not approve of drilling through walls to lay new cable. But they were also a government agency with security requirements that wouldn't let them use WiFi as it was too interceptable. Turns out we could pick up the Ethernet over Powerline signal in the building next door, then it was just a matter of decrypting it, just like WiFi.

So, I would guess you could do it over separate circuits, but if you can test first or be guaranteed a return if it doesn't work, that would be safer.

Thanks for the encouragement for the cable laying project. A year ago, I would have just paid someone to do it, not least because technically you're supposed to be a licenced data cabler in Australia, for anything that has a physical connection back to a public telecommunications infrastructure.  But obviously as I am here... trying to be a bit of a tight*** :D

Wow, I wouldn't even think to ask about ethernet in a home. But, I live in a town and state where I wanted a government inspection of my electrical work (I wanted to do a solar install, and I either needed a inspector to sign off or a the work done by a licensed electrician to satisfy the utility company for feeding onto the grid) and could not get it. The town deferred to the state ... and the state does issue a certificate if the house is wired at the time of construction by the owner. After that no permits, no inspections, no nothing. Really a net good for me as the amount of electrical work I have done is pretty extensive.

[BudgetSlasher]

The reconfiguration now works.

A new and proper ethernet cord and the primary node in the basement and I have accomplished the task of getting the blinking lights out of that bedroom.

[Daley]

Hooray!