Author Topic: home electrical question  (Read 3693 times)

AlanStache

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home electrical question
« on: June 09, 2016, 08:57:40 AM »
I replaced an overhead can light with a ceiling fan and wanted to replace the wall light switch with an inwall fan remote and remove the switch so power is always applied to the ceiling fixture.  All went well but when I opened up the light switch plate I found two black wires attached one black wire wrapped around one screw and one red to the other screw.  All the docs I have seen online dont mention how to remove a switch with three wires.  What i have seen online talked around only having the end of a wire at the screw not a middle part with it going back up the wall.  I tested all the outlets in the room and the switch does not control any of them.

In the attached picture there are two black wires going to the screw on the right is one black wire gonig to the right screw then back into the wall, one red to the screw on the left.  The cap on the black wires is just extending the wire length.  The switch was a normal two position switch. 

Do I need to connect the three red to the middle of the black wire?  Are there special caps I should use for this?

Edit: took a second look and found it was not two wires but only one.  Back to kindergarten for me :-)
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 06:12:26 AM by AlanStache »

Spork

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Re: home electrical question
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2016, 11:29:16 AM »
I'm not an electrician (and we have a few very good ones that pop in with advice. Believe them over me.)

To me it looks like your black is the hot for the circuit.  The red is the hot from the switch to the fixture.  If my assumption is correct, you'd just tie all 3 together.

I suspect your "two black wires" are actually one wire with a little insulation removed that just clamps under the screw.  I might be wrong there.

AlanStache

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Re: home electrical question
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2016, 12:09:00 PM »
I'm not an electrician (and we have a few very good ones that pop in with advice. Believe them over me.)

To me it looks like your black is the hot for the circuit.  The red is the hot from the switch to the fixture.  If my assumption is correct, you'd just tie all 3 together.

I suspect your "two black wires" are actually one wire with a little insulation removed that just clamps under the screw.  I might be wrong there.

I just checked the pic and I think you are right about it being one wire with some insulation removed.  So I need to connect red to the where the insulation was removed on the black?  Is there a proper method for doing this - what would that be called? 

IANAElectrician: yep, am very much going to double quadruple check anything before I turn the power back on to any changes.

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: home electrical question
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2016, 12:11:07 PM »
Why do you want this? Won't an always-on remote be a constant power drain? Probably not a big one, but still.

AlanStache

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Re: home electrical question
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2016, 12:17:53 PM »
Why do you want this? Won't an always-on remote be a constant power drain? Probably not a big one, but still.

Yes there would be a small (I assume, may look into this) drain but when flipping the switch the receiver-controller in the fan has a significant delay before the light comes on, but with power to the receiver the remote can turn the light on instantly.  Having the inwall remote also has a nice aesthetic and simplicity of not having to find the remote and make sure the switch is on.

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: home electrical question
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2016, 12:33:04 PM »
Is this up super high or something? I just use the pull chains and I am not a tall guy. Not trying to derail the thread, just trying to understand the advantages.

AlanStache

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Re: home electrical question
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2016, 12:38:32 PM »
Is this up super high or something? I just use the pull chains and I am not a tall guy. Not trying to derail the thread, just trying to understand the advantages.

I am tallish and got a fan without chains so I would not have to duck around them :-)  I also very much want to not have the issue of having to figure out how to turn the light on; is the switch off, is the fan light off, where is the remote, which chain do I pull....  With this you push a button on the wall - light comes on.

Spork

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Re: home electrical question
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2016, 12:59:31 PM »
I'm not an electrician (and we have a few very good ones that pop in with advice. Believe them over me.)

To me it looks like your black is the hot for the circuit.  The red is the hot from the switch to the fixture.  If my assumption is correct, you'd just tie all 3 together.

I suspect your "two black wires" are actually one wire with a little insulation removed that just clamps under the screw.  I might be wrong there.

I just checked the pic and I think you are right about it being one wire with some insulation removed.  So I need to connect red to the where the insulation was removed on the black?  Is there a proper method for doing this - what would that be called? 

IANAElectrician: yep, am very much going to double quadruple check anything before I turn the power back on to any changes.

I think you still have 2 black wires (connected by a wire nut).  This will be line (from the upstream circuit breaker) and load (to the downstream devices).  Trim it up neatly (so you don't have an uninsulated wire in the middle).   Neatly twist the ends with pliers*.  Connect black/black/red with a properly sized wire nut.**

*supposedly you aren't supposed to twist the ends.  I had an electrician friend that claimed that not twisting was the cause of bad connections.  Paddedhat will be along to say why you should/should not do it. ;)

** There are charts for how many of what size wire you can put together with a particular wire nut.  The ones I buy always have a chart on the package that is VERY detailed. 

paddedhat

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Re: home electrical question
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2016, 04:54:35 PM »
This is interesting, for one specific reason. That being the fact that this is an OLD installation, with cloth covered, ungrounded Romex, and it appears to have fed an overhead box fed with both switched and un-switched power.  This is often how overhead ceiling fans are wired today, but pretty unusual a half century ago. There are two Romex cables in the picture, a two wire hot feed, with a black and white wire, and a three wire cable heading to the ceiling box, with a black, red and white wire.  The black is the un-switched hot, and would be constantly hot at the ceiling box. The red is the switched hot that ( I assume) controlled the can light. The fact that this fed a can light is totally baffling to me, unless the un-switched hot left the switch box, and headed off to provide power to something else?  Bottom line is, you first need to discover where the un-switched hot ended up? Did it end up at the can light, and is it abandoned and safetied off with a wire nut at the can light junction box?  Does it continue to another outlet, or even another room?

Once you solve that mystery, you can continue by following the instructions provided by the fan controller. If you want to keep the black wire hot, as it heads out of the wall switch, you would connect both black wires together and connect them to the side of your controller marked "line or un-switched hot",  the red wire would be on the "load" side of the controller.

As for wire connections, The 3M brand red and yellow wire nut is about the most versatile and best residential use connector on the market,  it can handle everything from a pair of tiny #18 door bell wires to five number twelve wires. 

paddedhat

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Re: home electrical question
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2016, 05:36:31 PM »

*supposedly you aren't supposed to twist the ends.  I had an electrician friend that claimed that not twisting was the cause of bad connections.  Paddedhat will be along to say why you should/should not do it. ;)

Well in this case your electrician buddy is not claiming anything, he is just stating the truth. A really well done splice will never have a wire "fall out" or fail for any reason, in residential applications, for the entire service life of the installation, which could literally be a century, or more.  Pre-twisted conductors don't "fall out" and properly installed wire nuts, pre-twisted or not, don't allow a conductor to fall out.

Now the whole twisting thing is a bit of a controversy. The manufacturers will gladly prove and market the fact that their products do the job with "no pre-twisting necessary". Much like most of my previous bitching on the subject, IMHO, the reason for this is that pre-twisting is a skill, and like push wireable receptacles, this is another short cut designed to eliminate the need for a skill set, and assure that poorly trained Romex monkeys can quickly wire a home with little, to no, required talent.

A pre-twisted connection is something that can stand alone, without the need for a wire nut for any reason, other than to electrically insulate the connection. A properly twisted connection looks like a copper colored threaded bolt, and it is very tightly twisted, and symmetrical. The end is properly squared cut with a lineman's pliers, and the pliers is then used to grasp the very end of twist, and then spun, to round off the end profile, and put a bit of a "starter thread" on the bundle, to help the wire nut spring bite on, and start to thread.  There are you tube videos on the subject, if you are curious.

That said, there is nothing wrong with skipping the pre-twist, for most residential work, especially if you are a DIYer. The reason is simple, because you are actually going to read the damn directions and do the work properly, which is way more that the average Romex monkey does. There are a few secrets to non-twisted connections. First, it's critical to keep the stripped ends of all the wires even and tightly grouped, before you start the wire nut. Now the nut needs to be installed with a bit of effort, Grasp all the wires in one paw, and hold tight, twist the nut on like you mean it. Push it hard into the wire group and twist it tight!  Keep twisting until nut is making the insulated portion of the wires start to twist together, now continue until they are twisted at least a full revolution and a half, or more.  One final trick. A combination of solid and stranded wires can drive you half crazy. First, pre- twist the stranded wire. Nothing elaborate, just spin it with your fingers so it's got a nice twist to the individual strands. Now lead the stranded wire by a bit. Hold the solid wires so the tips are even, and let the stranded one stick past by 1/8" or 3/16".  Don't get too upset if every so often an attempt to properly install a wire nut turn into cursing, and throwing things. Sometimes they seem a bit possessed, and determined to not go on properly, just to spite you. The best way to deal with this is the throw the wire nut away, you already stretched the spring, and it isn't going to heal itself.  Clean up the grouping, make sure the ends are even, and if a stranded conductor is involved, be darn sure that there are no stray little strands plaguing you. Start again with a fresh nut.  Good luck.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: home electrical question
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2016, 09:06:26 AM »
  Don't get too upset if every so often an attempt to properly install a wire nut turn into cursing, and throwing things. Sometimes they seem a bit possessed, and determined to not go on properly, just to spite you. The best way to deal with this is the throw the wire nut away, you already stretched the spring, and it isn't going to heal itself.  Clean up the grouping, make sure the ends are even, and if a stranded conductor is involved, be darn sure that there are no stray little strands plaguing you. Start again with a fresh nut.  Good luck.
As an avid DIYer, SO MUCH THIS.  Mixing solid with stranded in a wire nut is a pain in the neck.  I've definitely come around to the "twist the solids together with linesman pliers" technique--that way, you don't have to worry about the conductors moving around while you put the wire nut on.

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Re: home electrical question
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2016, 05:44:13 PM »
I am an electrician.  The black should be your power feed, and the red the switched line to the light.  The white should be a neutral.  I say, "should", because there are exceptions.  If you connect the black to the red, the hot line at the light box should always be powered.  Twist one inch of copper from each of those  3 wires (2 black & 1 red; no white, green or bare) together so that they form a free-standing helix, that does not spring out when released.  Right hand twist.  Then (also right hand twist, or clockwise) put a red wirenut on the set.  Wrap a bit of black electrical tape around the base of the wirenut and to the set of wires.  Carefully push finished junction into box & install your blank cover plate.

Oh, and don't forget to turn off the breaker first, but I presume that you already did that before the photograph.

AlanStache

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Re: home electrical question
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2016, 10:02:57 AM »
Thanks everyone!  I think I will give this a go this afternoon. 

Yep I am very sure to make sure the power is off then to test the power with a tester before I begin work (and I test the tester before trusting it...).  I am an engineer and have worked in industrial settings so I have seen many-a safety video and am motivated to not kill myself in a painful manner  :-)

MoonShadow

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Re: home electrical question
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2016, 12:02:27 PM »
I have seen many-a safety video and am motivated to not kill myself in a painful manner  :-)

I've personally known 2 electricians that have died on the job.  Both of them were very careful, and both of them had a rushed moment.  Respect the power.