Author Topic: Heating System Dilemma!  (Read 4367 times)

Pav

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Heating System Dilemma!
« on: March 17, 2014, 10:27:47 AM »
My heating bills, as I’m sure many of yours, have been astronomically high this winter, and I’ve gotta make a move.

The situation:
I have a 100 yr old, 3 bedroom,  1,200 sq ft home that has a gas fired steam boiler system and steam radiators. The single-pipe system is set up for 8 radiators, but only 5 are installed. There are two capped off pipes on the first floor (one is under kitchen cabinets, the other is exposed in the dining room, and one upstairs in a spare bedroom.  The boiler is maybe 7-10 years old. The return pipes from this system that run along the walls / floor of the basement are completely corroded and falling apart. Because of this, the water is leaking all over the floor and not returning to the boiler. Hence, the automatic valve that replenishes the system kicks on with regularity on cold days. I have been keeping the heat at 65 all winter. I am not a plumber, but I’ve tackled a bunch of renovations without having to hire out. My father-in-law Jeff is an experienced HVAC technician who has helped me a whole bunch, and is a guru of home repair.

The options:
Replacing the return lines with black iron pipe
-   This seems like an obvious option and will hopefully increase the current systems efficiency. Neither me or Jeff have any experience with working with black iron pipe.

Replacing the return lines with copper
-   + This would also hopefully make the system more efficient, and in-law has plenty of experience working with copper.
-   - The different materials are prone to leaks, and copper is very expensive.

Purchasing new steam radiators for the first floor capped pipes
-   Unsure of the cost of these, or if there is room for them.

Purchasing new wood burning stove / insert
-   Stove plus liner and insulation are a sizable investment, but at least there are no surprise bills when wood is purchased upfront.

Inheriting wood burning insert that is too wide to fit the current fireplace
-   The insert is free!
-   The install would entail removing one layer of bricks from the fireplace opening, to widen it out. I’m unsure about how this would affect the structural integrity of the fireplace.
-   I’m still coming out of pocket for chimney liner and insulation.

Which options should be thrown out? Which should I focus on? My budget is as limited as possible.

Spork

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Re: Heating System Dilemma!
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2014, 10:39:09 AM »

Do you have the ability to run an external air source to the wood stove and/or do some sort of heat exchanger?

If you're drawing air from a 100 year old (probably leaky) house... you're likely to be drawing in more cold air than you're replacing with heat.  You may make your house slightly colder.

Pav

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Re: Heating System Dilemma!
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2014, 11:04:14 AM »
The insert would vent up the chimney. There's no room to place a free standing stove on the first floor. we have replaced all the windows, and I circle the house, caulking the windows and door frames every fall, but I know its FAR from airtight. Would that issue truly make the insert obsolete?

Spork

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Re: Heating System Dilemma!
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2014, 12:14:26 PM »
The insert would vent up the chimney. There's no room to place a free standing stove on the first floor. we have replaced all the windows, and I circle the house, caulking the windows and door frames every fall, but I know its FAR from airtight. Would that issue truly make the insert obsolete?

I was actually talking about the fresh air vent for the stove, not the chimney.   

I don't honestly know if it would make it obsolete or not... but it's something to consider.  Most fireplaces that don't have some sort of fresh air intake or heat exchanger (or both) actually have a net loss.   They create a suction up the chimney due to the rapidly rising hot air and pull cold air in.  Often the fresh air intake is just a small hole and some 6" ductwork to feed the fire air from outside.

WageSlave

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Re: Heating System Dilemma!
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2014, 12:35:25 PM »
Is there any possibility for remodeling with the intent of improving sealing/insulation?  I've recently become semi-obsessed with lurking around Green Building Talk.  Lots of talk over there on how to increase the thermal performance of an existing house.

I don't have the expertise to tell you what the right thing to do is.  But, depending on a number of factors, such as...
  • How much does the HVAC repair/replacement cost?
  • How long are you planning on living there?
  • What are your concerns with regards to resale value?
  • How much are you willing to DIY?
...there may be more value in improving sealing and insulation.

Your house is relatively small.  I'm not sure what zone you're in, but at least the zone I was reading about (5A, central & northern Illinois), a properly insulated and sealed house of that size could probably be heated with a single mini-split air-source heat pump.  Again, I'm just a guy who's been reading forums, so don't take that as any kind of authoritative answer, just an assumption based on what I've been reading.  :)

If you're considering spending big money, I think it's worth your time to do a little research and see if there's any possibility to stretch your dollar a little further by improving your existing house's environmental efficiency.  There are a lot of folks advertising their consulting services on that site, too, so you might be able to get one or more experts to come out and give you an idea what it would cost to improve sealing and/or insulation.

Just some more stuff to think about.  :)

Pav

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Re: Heating System Dilemma!
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2015, 10:36:23 AM »
Just an update here:

DIY Repair: I have replaced all the return pipes in the basement with their original appropriate material, black iron. After taking meticulous measurements, diagramming, and labeling, I purchased the pipe from Lowes and they cut and thread for no charge. The fittings I purchased from plumbingsupply online. Roughly a $400 repair. Working with the pipe was tough, but after gathering all the materials, the job was completed in one day.

Results: I used to hear the low-water auto-fill valve replenish my boilers water supply 1x-3x per day. So far this winter, I've only heard it fill 3x total! This means more 70+ degree steam condinsate returning to the boiler, as opposed to 50 degree supply water. This should equal less gas burned to create the steam.

DIY Install: $270 Craigslist pellet insert and $500 25' chimney liner kit. Lining the chimney was a very tough and dangerous job, but it was completed without injury.

Results: I'm very proud of the job, but I wish this insert would throw out as much heat as other stoves I've seen. It's steel, as opposed to cast iron, which means it heats quickly, but fails to retain the heat after the unit is shut off. Also, being that it is pellet, it will not function in the event of power loss. The fact that I only paid $270 makes me feel good, because I doubt this investment would ever pay for itself if I paid retail $.

Forgot to add this-
DIY Install: Reinstalled two steam radiators that had been sitting in my basement, disconnected and collecting dust. My single-pipe steam system is piped to utilize 8 radiators. When I moved in, only 6 were connected, with a 7th stored in the basement. We renovated the kitchen, disconnecting a radiator to make room for kitchen cabinets. The system was down to 5 of 8. We hoisted the old kitchen radiator to the new baby's bedroom upstairs, to a capped off pipe. The radiator from the basement was connected to a capped of pipe in the dining room.

Results: I believe this made the whole system more balanced, and the house seems to be heated more evenly. I don't believe that the boiler has to create a significant amount more steam to fill the additional radiators, but the utility bill will tell the tale.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 12:24:58 PM by Pav »

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Heating System Dilemma!
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2015, 09:30:06 PM »
I'm interested in hearing how the repairs affect your utility bill, if at all.  Certainly it sounds like the system is making life a bit more pleasant!

Pav

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Re: Heating System Dilemma!
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2015, 09:31:56 AM »
I will definitely give an update when my Budget Billing adjustment month comes. I believe that's in May. I've been paying $325 / month for gas and electric on a budget plan. So far, it looks like my budget billing may actually come close to breaking even this year! The past two years, even on budget billing, I've had to come out of pocket $1000+ when the adjustment month came. This outragous expense was my motivation.

Life is a bit more pleasent, but I'm still planning on insulating our attic, when $ allows. It is a scuttle attic with access via hole in 2nd floor hallway ceiling.  The attic has a decent amount of space and is underutilized due to the inconvenient access. I'd really love to finish the attic DIY style, installing walkable flooring, framing in knee walls (maybe built in storage cabinets?), insulating rafters, etc. One major hurdle might be installing a pull-down staircase, or other easy way to get up there. Plus, I really dig MMM's post about the DIY metal roof install. It'd be very dangerous for me, based on the pitch of my roof.

Sibley

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Re: Heating System Dilemma!
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2015, 11:12:46 AM »
Given the age of that house, unless someone added insulation in the walls previously, you should evaluate the insulation status. Many times old houses like that either had no wall insulation, or that insulation broke down over the years. My parents had a company blow in insulation from the inside (through many small holes in the plaster), and significantly improved comfort and gas bills.

Pav

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Re: Heating System Dilemma!
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2015, 01:41:10 PM »
I am positively sure that there is NO insulation in the walls of the house. The attic is not 100% insulated either. I plan on addressing the attic this year, funds permitting.

Pav

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Re: Heating System Dilemma!
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2015, 01:17:39 PM »
March is my Annual Budget Adjustment month. Paying $325 / month for gas and electric has, for the first time since I've lived here (3 winters) yielded a budget surplus of $309.26. I tend to believe this is due to switching my Supply company from a 3rd party back to the utility company.

The Usage Numbers:
Feb March 2013-14
Gas = 796 Ccf
Electric = 998 kWh

Feb March 2014-15
Gas = 597 Ccf
Electric = 1264 kWh

The increase in electric could be due in part to pellet insert usage.