Author Topic: Hardwood floor install questions  (Read 10775 times)

prodarwin

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Hardwood floor install questions
« on: January 21, 2014, 10:52:12 AM »
I've already acquired the wood, now tell me what I need to know about installing it.  Any recommended guides to read online (especially any that deal with how to handle transitions or thresholds)?

Specific questions:

1)  A co-worker of mine has been using a manual toe-nailer.  He says that each time you hit it, it dispenses a nail... so if you didn't drive the nail all the way on the first hit, you have to stop and drive it in with a punch.  This sounds like a pain in the ass.  Is there a model that lets you drive multiple times?  If not, what's the recommendation here?  Air powered?  I'll probably be renting this tool, but at 1000sq ft I need to install, I may snag a used one up if I can find something decent and sell it again when I'm done.

2)  Underlayment:  I've gotten all sorts of opinions on this from "It's bullshit" to "You neeeeed it to keep the floor from squeaking"  I recall helping install a wood floor about 10 years ago when working for a contractor and never recall using it.  I do think we glued + nailed a floor or two.  Recommendations?

Greg

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Re: Hardwood floor install questions
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2014, 11:10:09 AM »
Modern hand nailers are ratcheting, so that it won't slide back to grab another nail until a certain depth is achieved.

A vapor retarder (somewhat permeable like rosin core or tar paper, but not plastic) is the industry standard. It slows moisture travel in and out of the bottom of the boards.

prodarwin

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Re: Hardwood floor install questions
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2014, 02:13:07 PM »
Modern hand nailers are ratcheting, so that it won't slide back to grab another nail until a certain depth is achieved.

A vapor retarder (somewhat permeable like rosin core or tar paper, but not plastic) is the industry standard. It slows moisture travel in and out of the bottom of the boards.

Hmm, so if I can get a manual ratcheting nailer, is there any reason to have a compressor?  For finish-nailing?  Or to face nail/staple the first few rows of boards?  How difficult is it to do both of these by hand?

Nords

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Re: Hardwood floor install questions
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2014, 02:29:15 PM »
I've already acquired the wood, now tell me what I need to know about installing it.  Any recommended guides to read online (especially any that deal with how to handle transitions or thresholds)?
My go-to guide for all home improvement questions is FamilyHandyman.com.

For example:
http://www.familyhandyman.com/search?q=hardwood%20floor
and
http://www.familyhandyman.com/video/v/62192837/how-to-install-hardwood-floors.htm

Exflyboy

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Re: Hardwood floor install questions
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2014, 02:56:47 PM »
I use the air driven toe nailer specifically for Tounged and grooved hardwood strips.. its the only way to go.

For the places where you can't get the nailer in (first 2 rows typically) I use the standard air driven finish nailer. Its too slow to use on a whole floor but for the first two strips its what you need. Just have to be careful to hold it at 45 degrees or face nail on the first strip.

I did my whole hose and used 15lb tarpaper.. but ONLY if you are using water based finish.. if you use oil base there is a risk the tar might come up to the surface!!

Frank

Mori

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Re: Hardwood floor install questions
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2014, 10:10:47 PM »
I went back and forth on the underlayment--the most persuasive thing I saw was that it can block light from the floor below when there are gaps. I have a plank subfloor, not plywood, so this seemed like this could actually happen in my case. I also found cheap resin paper (like 10 bucks a roll) that was supposedly okay to put under hardwood, so I didn't lose a lot of money doing it.

Edited to add: Oh, but it doesn't seem to stop any squeaking. :) Even on the older part of the house I have tarpaper underlayment with squeaks. From my reading it seems like that's caused by moving nails, which can be aleviated if you use a different type of nail in the install. I haven't looked at them, but I think they are called "barbed" nails. They are supposed to stay a little better because they have more "grab".

I also used this link (among others) when I did my floor repair: http://www.hardwoodinstaller.com/installation/nail-down-general.htm

Good luck!
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 10:18:38 PM by Mori »

sleepyguy

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Re: Hardwood floor install questions
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2014, 08:27:27 AM »
I've installed hardwood in 2 of my homes already... entire floor with single flow (one way throughout into rooms etc, have to get everything pretty straight).

Answers.
1) Yes get an air powered one, also you'll want a decent air compressor as the cheap ones are noisy as hell.

2. Google has tons of info, but generally.  if you're not replacing the subfloor, rescrew down EVERYTHING, and make sure it's flat, then put down minimum 5/8 plywood T/G.  Screw down.  Then put roofing paper (staple down i u want so it doesn't curl).  Then the floor goes on.

Recommendations/Comments.
- get a laser sight s you can get the baseline center where the main boards will go, then chalk line it. 
- make sure the floor is relatively flat... fix it.
- fix all squeaks before putting down anything... you'll thank yourself later.
- budget for trim, unless you aim to reuse old.
- get a powered side cutter for door trim... save tons of sweat and makes clean cuts.
- remember to set the floor boards out for awhile, think it's 72hrs so get's used to the air humidity or something
- when starting center to sides, get a wooden center groove peice that slidesin the H/W board... so you can flow in both directions.  all stores sell them for cheap.
- stairs are a biatch to do...

Read up on google though, tons of good info.

I've already acquired the wood, now tell me what I need to know about installing it.  Any recommended guides to read online (especially any that deal with how to handle transitions or thresholds)?

Specific questions:

1)  A co-worker of mine has been using a manual toe-nailer.  He says that each time you hit it, it dispenses a nail... so if you didn't drive the nail all the way on the first hit, you have to stop and drive it in with a punch.  This sounds like a pain in the ass.  Is there a model that lets you drive multiple times?  If not, what's the recommendation here?  Air powered?  I'll probably be renting this tool, but at 1000sq ft I need to install, I may snag a used one up if I can find something decent and sell it again when I'm done.

2)  Underlayment:  I've gotten all sorts of opinions on this from "It's bullshit" to "You neeeeed it to keep the floor from squeaking"  I recall helping install a wood floor about 10 years ago when working for a contractor and never recall using it.  I do think we glued + nailed a floor or two.  Recommendations?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 08:32:50 AM by sleepyguy »

adam

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Re: Hardwood floor install questions
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2014, 09:02:01 AM »
I have a concrete floor so I couldn't do traditional hardwood, but one thing that would be the same between your case and mine (with laminate) is that you need to understand that your walls are probably not going to be square.  I ran into this problem immediately just laying the very first row, my wall bowed out a good inch in the middle, so there was a gap there, but each end of the row was touching the wall.  Some of the long cuts had to be on angles in particularly bad sections where one side of the 4ft board was the normal ~5 inch width, but the other size had to be 3 inches or something like that.  Measure twice and cut once.

Just keep that in mind when things don't seem to be lining up right.

Also, depending on how much sqft you're doing, you will probably need more than one saw blade.  I did 1000sqft and needed 2 table saw blades and 2-3 jig saw blades (for cutting funny pieces around thresholds). 

Also x2, for cutting under door jams/thresholds, an oscillating multi-tool is a life saver.  You'll need 2-3 blades for that too.

prodarwin

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Re: Hardwood floor install questions
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2014, 06:49:00 AM »
I went back and forth on the underlayment--the most persuasive thing I saw was that it can block light from the floor below when there are gaps. I have a plank subfloor, not plywood, so this seemed like this could actually happen in my case. I also found cheap resin paper (like 10 bucks a roll) that was supposedly okay to put under hardwood, so I didn't lose a lot of money doing it.


Hmm.  I've been reading up on this constantly.  My subfloor, I believe, is 3/4 OSB.  This is a house built in 2003.  There are no light gaps.  This is on the first floor, and the basement is unheated.  There is insulation between all the joists.

Lots of recommendations of 15# tar paper online, but...

I did my whole hose and used 15lb tarpaper.. but ONLY if you are using water based finish.. if you use oil base there is a risk the tar might come up to the surface!!


I'm using pre-finished wood.  I'm not sure if its water or oil based?





prodarwin

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Re: Hardwood floor install questions
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2014, 07:00:10 AM »
Also for trim & whatnot, can someone educate me on what I need?  I often see 3 tools listed (that look identical in pictures online)  stapler, brad nailer, finish nailer and I'm not sure which I need.

sleepyguy

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Re: Hardwood floor install questions
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2014, 09:01:14 AM »
You'll obviously need something like a chopsaw, and even a table saw (for lenght cuts).  Try to get on with a cutting blade not a ripping blade, cleaner cuts.

for the trims, you can just the chopsaw.  For the door jabs you can use something like this

http://www.lowes.com/pd_196238-16878-54603_0__?productId=3525366

But if you have like let's say 20+ doors/entrys... rent an motor powered one... they are pretty expensive.

Also for trim & whatnot, can someone educate me on what I need?  I often see 3 tools listed (that look identical in pictures online)  stapler, brad nailer, finish nailer and I'm not sure which I need.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 05:47:50 PM by sleepyguy »

Greg

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Re: Hardwood floor install questions
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2014, 11:06:43 AM »
I'm using pre-finished wood.  I'm not sure if its water or oil based?

Doesn't matter for pre-finished.  The concern about tar paper refers to applying oil finishes to un-finished wood.  If the finish soaks through the joints to the paper, dark stains could wick up through the finish.

For floor planks, you will want a finish nailer, 16 or 18 gauge.  For baseboard and other trim, base shoe etc, a 22g brad nailer that can shoot 2" brads would work well.  But, oak and other hardwoods can resist brads so choose your tool according to the material as well.

Exflyboy

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Re: Hardwood floor install questions
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2014, 12:43:35 PM »
Exactly if its finished it doesn't matter.. if you ever intend to refinish it in the future then you should avoid oil based sealers if you use tar paper.

Most finished these days are water based in my experience.. reason being is the oil based ones stink so bad you practically have to evacuate your house for a week after you put down an oil based finish.

I dissagree with the cheap compressor issue.. air hoses are cheap so you can park your cheap compressor (I practically built my whole house with the portable $89 compressor I picked up from Harbor Freight) outside.. Unless you think it will annoy the neighbors..:)

Frank

prodarwin

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Re: Hardwood floor install questions
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2014, 08:19:21 PM »
Well, I appreciate all the tips.  I'm about 60% done with the main room in my house.  It looks awesome so far.

Tool bill was a bit higher than expected, but still a lot cheaper than paying someone to do it, and some of the tools (compressor) I planned on pickup up for my garage anyway.

Exflyboy

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Re: Hardwood floor install questions
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2014, 11:53:39 AM »
Awesome.. like anything its simple after the first time you do it.. except brain surgery maybe..:)

Frank

sleepyguy

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Re: Hardwood floor install questions
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2014, 08:13:20 AM »
Sweet, compressor is very versatile though as you can add tons of tools to it!

Post some before/after pics :)

Well, I appreciate all the tips.  I'm about 60% done with the main room in my house.  It looks awesome so far.

Tool bill was a bit higher than expected, but still a lot cheaper than paying someone to do it, and some of the tools (compressor) I planned on pickup up for my garage anyway.

prodarwin

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Re: Hardwood floor install questions
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2014, 08:50:27 AM »
Sweet, compressor is very versatile though as you can add tons of tools to it!


Well, this one isn't very versatile... its only a 3 gallon.  Good for airing up tires, air nozzle cleaning, and various home repair air tools.  Maybe it'll run my impact for a few seconds too.  No real fun stuff like a blast cabinet, paint guns, or plasma cutter though.  On the plus side, it has good reviews, it wasn't very expensive, and is like 1/10th as loud and takes 1/10th as long for initial fill as the last compressor I had (sold when I moved).

prodarwin

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Re: Hardwood floor install questions
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2014, 03:49:07 PM »
So... what do I do when I get to the threshold for the front door?





Do I remove this threshold and find something else?  Can I trim the bottom edge on the inside of it with an oscillating multi-tool (just like all the door jambs), only with a metal blade? 
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 03:51:31 PM by prodarwin »

Greg

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Re: Hardwood floor install questions
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2014, 05:46:11 PM »
Normally you would leave that door threshold in place and install your flooring right up to it.  A 1/8" max. gap that you fill with caulk is a good idea, and then you can cover that with some matching base shoe.

prodarwin

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Re: Hardwood floor install questions
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2014, 07:27:51 PM »
Base shoe... do you mean what people keep referring to as 1/4 round?  That makes sense and seems easy, thanks.

Speaking of caulk, what kind of caulk do I use with a wood floor?  Do you normally caulk where the door jamb meets the floor (interior door jambs I mean)?  I have a few where the gap from jamb to floor is larger that I would like.

Another question.  Is 1/4 round necessary?  If my baseboards cover all the gaps, do I still need it?

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Re: Hardwood floor install questions
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2014, 10:34:27 PM »
1/4 round is a simple form of base shoe, which is normally a little taller than is is deep, say 3/4" deep x 1" tall, but 1/4 does the same thing.

It's usually installed on re-sanded floors to cover the edges that don't get totally sanded, when removing the base is complicated and/or destructive.  Think tall, multi-profile, victorian hardwood base.  If you have your base off and reinstalling it covers the gaps, then you don't need the base shoe.

Caulking joints at jambs is generally a good idea, it keeps moisture, air and debris from leaking/getting in the gap.  You can leave it uncaulked if you want and cover it with baseshoe, 1/4 round or even 1/4"x3/4" scribe.

The idea behind caulking is it creates a flexible joint that keeps debris out, and allows for expansion and contraction of the wood against more/less stable materials.  Pretty much anything but silicone is suitable.  I use acrylic caulk for most interior applications.

prodarwin

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Re: Hardwood floor install questions
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2014, 09:36:14 PM »
Ok, main room floor complete.

Regarding baseboards... what type of nails do I use to reattach?  It appears that they were attached with 18ga nails.  Is there any problem with using 16ga finish nails to reattach them?  That would save me from purchasing/borrowing another gun.

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Re: Hardwood floor install questions
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2014, 09:33:39 AM »
No problem other than slightly larger holes to fill.  Pull the old nails through the backside with channel lock pliers, don't try to back them out through the front.  If you nail through the same holes, it should work well, the 16g nails should be slightly thicker and grab even though you use the same holes.   When just the nail head is protruding, switch to using your nail set to avoid making hammer marks in the surface of the base.

Now is also the time to seal any gaps between the drywall and framing, or the framing and the subfloor, if there are any.  You can also use thin wood or cardboard shims to ensure the trim is flat and not tipped in at the bottom due to the taper of the drywall edge, depending on how it was hung.

Use a nail length that only penetrates the framing 1-1/4".  More than this and you risk damaging wiring or plumbing.  1-1/4" is the industry standard limit for nail plate protection, deeper than that and no nail plates are required.

So, for 3/4" base, 1/2" drywall you would use 2-1/2" nails or shorter.  Hope that makes sense.

prodarwin

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Re: Hardwood floor install questions
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2014, 11:26:22 AM »
Makes perfect sense.  Thank you Greg.

 

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