Engineered Hardwood Flooring DIY?

[jeromedawg]

Hey guys,

Was looking for some advice and tips on hardwood flooring for a 'roughly' 460sq ft living/dining room space and roughly 100sqft hallway area. I started doing some research and found that engineered hardwood is a good option over laminate in terms of preventing warping and what not.

Is it pretty difficult to install this type of flooring? I was looking at a rough estimate of close to $3000 for just the flooring and molding itself. Are there other costs that need to be factored in here? Tar paper/padding for underneath?

I'm strongly considering DIYing this but am wondering if it's going to be more trouble than it's worth. I have limited experience DIYing stuff but like to try if I can. Of course, it's always better if someone more experienced is there to help out. I could enlist the help of a couple friends who I know have had experience installing flooring. Just not sure if and how engineered hardwood is any different.

I don't know - to me this is a pretty major thing but just trying to get an idea if this is something I should try to tackle as a noob.

[The Architect]

Depends on the type. I did click-laminate floating flooring myself and that went fairly well (especially after we started putting it in in the right direction). I've heard some types of engineered require nailing/gluing, and some may do better with an underlay. If you get a click-style floating system, it's absolutely a DIY job - having done it, it's absurd that people pay to have other people install that stuff when you're paying (in theory) a premium to get an easy-to-install system. Having done that though, any regular wood/engineered floor I'd probably do myself.

The hardest part is that you need to rip all the baseboards (and existing floor, not hard but needs to be done. Carpet tack strips are a pain) out first. Use a flatbar - one specially designed for molding should cost ~$10. You may also need to cut along the board with a razor and putty knife if it's been painted/caulked over. Work very carefully - if you have wood/MDF/PVC moldings you should be able to save them. While you're picking up stuff, maybe check that your base profile is available so you know if you can buy replacements if you break any. I also had a head-scratcher over how to do flooring transitions - turns out you just buy the appropriate one (high floor/low floor, wood to carpet, bullnose, round, etc. etc. Ask your provider if you're not sure which is which) and glue it down with construction adhesive. Maybe also nail if you've got wood subfloor.

Borrowing a tack-gun and compressor from a friend would make reinstalling baseboards 1000% easier than hammering (i.e.: 1000% less hammer skill required to carefully not-damage your baseboards). Rent one if you have to.

Always tear out your own stuff - that's easy and there is little risk of failure.

[GrayGhost]

We've used laminate in parts of our basement, and in a few rental units. Why? It's cheaper, it's still easy to install, it's waterproof, and it doesn't look half bad.

But for personal use, click wood flooring is very easy to install. I'm not at all sure that it's more durable than laminate, but my research indicates that it's not at all hard to install. Depending on what your subfloor is, you might need a moisture barrier, and possibly luan/plywood underlayment to smooth out deviations if you don't want to rip up old flooring.

Overall, it's a really simple, quick upgrade. The only challenges are cutting odd corners and angles properly, and doing precise measurements to avoid having a half inch wide strip at one side of the room. It's a floating floor, so you don't need to attach it to the subfloor at all. It's just click and keep in place.

[kendallf]

The engineered hardwood I've seen interlocks just like the cheaper laminate; it installs over an underlayment and it's very easy to do.  As Architect mentioned, you'll need to pull the baseboard (or, optionally, just the quarter round if that's installed).  Additionally, you'll usually need to cut the casings of any doors or openings for clearance to slide the flooring slightly underneath.  You can buy an inexpensive hand saw for this, or a more expensive power "toe kick" saw.

[jeromedawg]

Thanks guys! Right now we have carpet throughout the place and it's in pretty good condition (I think the previous owners installed it new before we moved in but that was back in 2007). There's the standard foam padding underneath and I think it's cement under that. So I'd remove all the carpet and padding right? And then lay tar paper and or new padding before installing the wood or laminate flooring? It sounds like the click flooring might be the best way to go for me. The only thing I'm not so sure about is where to stash all our furniture and what order to do stuff in. Should we tackle the smaller part (hallway) first and then do the larger living room area after? We'd probably have to move everything into the kitchen and/or bedrooms. I just wouldn't want to put myself in a situation where we aren't able to finish the flooring before the day ends and having to figure out where/how to move stuff back into the space or work around all of it.

Also, how do you determine what direction to lay the planks? I'm assuming usually it's along the length of the hallway. And if the hallway runs out to the living room, for it to flow best, it should probably continue flowing the same general direction instead of making sort of an "L").

BTW: is laminate really waterproof? I've read around that it can warp from water spills and things like that, and that engineered wood floors are typically more durable. What would the best type of wood be either way? Oak? Also, I read that the floor needs to be spaced a bit from the edges to allow for expansion and breathability or something like that. Is that what those clear plastic spacers (or just pieces of wood) are that people use to keep some space between the edges of the walls, etc?

[paddedhat]

BTW: is laminate really waterproof? I've read around that it can warp from water spills and things like that, and that engineered wood floors are typically more durable. What would the best type of wood be either way? Oak? Also, I read that the floor needs to be spaced a bit from the edges to allow for expansion and breathability or something like that. Is that what those clear plastic spacers (or just pieces of wood) are that people use to keep some space between the edges of the walls, etc?

Most laminates, and some engineered wood products, have a base, or core, of high density fiberboard. This is the issue when it comes to it being far from waterproof. The fiberboard is nothing but compressed wood dust and glue. It swells exponentially when exposed to water. Engineered floors can be a better choice, IF they are built with laminates of real wood, plywood style, and not just a thin layer of wood on a fiberboard base.  Spacing can be critical for expansion. As for best wood question, any competent wood floor dealer will have a chart that rates the hardness and durability of various wood species.  Obviously the other big factor in durability will be the quality of the factory finish. This is where I would do some online research for meaningful info. since IMHO, anything a retailer tells you regarding quality can be suspect. Finally, it's my experience that the big box stores, and lumber liquidators, are really good places to avoid if you want durable products from knowledgeable suppliers.

[Numbers Man]

It's a very easy DIY project that can be easily done in a weekend based on the square footage that you are laying down. I'm sure you can google a few youtube videos that will answer all of your questions.

[The Architect]

To really do it right, you need to also let the new floor 'season' in your living space. Buy it and keep it neatly stacked (not so it's bent!) near the room(s) it'll be installed in for at least a week. Move all the furniture in the space into another room the night before you're planning to work.

Thanks guys! Right now we have carpet throughout the place and it's in pretty good condition (I think the previous owners installed it new before we moved in but that was back in 2007). There's the standard foam padding underneath and I think it's cement under that. So I'd remove all the carpet and padding right?

Rip all that carpet stuff out, yes. And the tack strips - those can be a bear, but a friend and I tore out 300 s.f. of carpet, pad, and tack strip in a couple hours. While you're doing it, carefully pull off the baseboards or quarter rounds as indicated up thread. Those should take another couple hours by themselves, especially if your baseboards need to be cut to remove without wrecking your paint.

And then lay tar paper and or new padding before installing the wood or laminate flooring?

Eh... not sure if tar paper qualifies as underlayment. Ask your suppler for proper underlayment. Mine was some kind of plastic, just roll it out and cut it to fit your room(s). If the room is upstairs, either get flooring with built-in pad or ask about sound-damping padding - you might need to look around for it, I think I've specified 'acousti-mat' before, but I have no idea where you buy it from. That took maybe an hour.

It sounds like the click flooring might be the best way to go for me. The only thing I'm not so sure about is where to stash all our furniture and what order to do stuff in. Should we tackle the smaller part (hallway) first and then do the larger living room area after? We'd probably have to move everything into the kitchen and/or bedrooms. I just wouldn't want to put myself in a situation where we aren't able to finish the flooring before the day ends and having to figure out where/how to move stuff back into the space or work around all of it.

Pack everything into as few rooms as possible. We stacked our whole living and dining room into a den. You'd be surprised how much stuff fits in a room when getting into it isn't important. If you have to, move people out - my SO went to her parents for the weekend so she wouldn't need to deal with the construction mess. If you've got kids, send them to friends/family if possible.

Also, how do you determine what direction to lay the planks? I'm assuming usually it's along the length of the hallway. And if the hallway runs out to the living room, for it to flow best, it should probably continue flowing the same general direction instead of making sort of an "L").

Usually the longest dimension of your space should go the same way as the long dimension of the planks. Ask your supplier for advice though. You shouldn't change directions unless you absolutely have to - wood shrinks and expands a bit with temperature/humidity, so if you have to change directions, do it in an opening (door, entry to a hallway, narrow spot) with a transition.

BTW: is laminate really waterproof? I've read around that it can warp from water spills and things like that, and that engineered wood floors are typically more durable. ...Also, I read that the floor needs to be spaced a bit from the edges to allow for expansion and breathability or something like that. Is that what those clear plastic spacers (or just pieces of wood) are that people use to keep some space between the edges of the walls, etc?

All wood shrinks and expands from exposure to moisture. Leave 1/2" or so (or per your supplier) between your floor and the walls - we just winged it and it worked fine. My floor has proven to be quite water resistant (spills, cleaning, etc. don't do anything), but I wouldn't want to flood it.

Laminate is probably more durable but less long-lasting - it's harder to damage than just about any wood, but if you do you can't fix it short of tearing out the marred planks. Engineered is going to dent and scratch more easily but you have actual wood to use to help hide the marring, and you can try to sand it out. I actually heard that real wood isn't much better than engineered as far as repair-ability - you only have 1/4" or so till you hit nails. Engineered only has about that much before you burn through the 'nice' wood topping.

What would the best type of wood be either way? Oak?

Any of the so-called 'Ironwood' species - Brazilian Walnut, Ipe, etc. - are the 'hardest.' Pine, Fir, Maple and Oak are traditional in the US. Bloodwood, Padook, and Purpleheart are cool colors. Laminate will outperform anything short of an exotic for impact resistance. Here's a chart showing the relative hardness of flooring woods with links to specifics and images. Higher Janka hardness = harder. Traditional woods aren't actually all that hard (hardness +/- 1300), and I'm sure you've seen how well they hold up.

Really, what matters most there is what you like the look of best - some woods can be stained darker, but already dark woods can't easily be stained lighter. If you want dark floors, get a dark wood. Light floors, get a light wood.

[mrsggrowsveg]

Installing the flooring itself was really easy for us.  The issue we ran into was that our subfloor was rotten and the joists were warped.  That turned into way more work and involved over a year of a floorless living room.  I think time I would hire someone if the subloof was bad at all.

[Distshore]

We did this recently in an old bedroom that was being converted to my home office.  Definitely a DIY job but prepare well first.

1)  Select the floor material you want.  I got samples from a few vendors including online (ie builddirect, ifloor).  Test the flooring material by stabbing it with sharp objects, wetting it, trying to bend it etc.  Pick what you think is most durable and nicest.  With engineered wood, it's mostly the coating they give you (+ quality of substrates) that determines how hard wearing it will be.  I looked at the oak stuff but the top layer was so thin, and the coating inadequate, that it would have worn out immediately.  I ended up with a light commercial  grade bamboo click-lock; the coating is so heavy duty that it was the hardest of the materials I looked at.
2) Rip out existing floor material and/or quarter round; measure twice and allow 15 % overage
3) Pick your transitions and remember to order the right transition and length when you order the flooring
4) Most importantly - prep your subfloor.  It must be flat!!!  Fill in holes if it's cement with self levelling or similar.  We were laying on an old plank subfloor, so added 3/4 inch ply over the top and screwed it down tight.
5) Lay underlayment.  With cement, you might want 2 underlayments eg tar paper or 6 mil plastic sheeting if the cement is "on the ground" and then Quiet Walk/Floor Muffler or similar (I used Quiet Walk).  If you don't use this, your floor will sound hollow and echo when you walk on it.
6) Cut planks as recommended (definitely recommend a chop saw with 60+ tooth blade) to prevent splintering the coating on planks. Make sure you leave the recommended spacing round the edge of the room, that you'll cover up with quarter round/alternative later.
7) Click and lock!

PS usually run the planks longways to the longest side of the room.  If you have the transition of hallway to living room and the planks will be running different directions, add a transition between them.  They should run perpendicular in that situation.

[Heckler]

very easy to install.  you need a cutoff saw for square cuts, but that could be rented.

[Spork]

It's worse than described here.  Most today are compressed paper and glue.  These **SERIOUSLY** expand with the tiniest amount of water. 

BTW: is laminate really waterproof? I've read around that it can warp from water spills and things like that, and that engineered wood floors are typically more durable. What would the best type of wood be either way? Oak? Also, I read that the floor needs to be spaced a bit from the edges to allow for expansion and breathability or something like that. Is that what those clear plastic spacers (or just pieces of wood) are that people use to keep some space between the edges of the walls, etc?

Most laminates, and some engineered wood products, have a base, or core, of high density fiberboard. This is the issue when it comes to it being far from waterproof. The fiberboard is nothing but compressed wood dust and glue. It swells exponentially when exposed to water. Engineered floors can be a better choice, IF they are built with laminates of real wood, plywood style, and not just a thin layer of wood on a fiberboard base.  Spacing can be critical for expansion. As for best wood question, any competent wood floor dealer will have a chart that rates the hardness and durability of various wood species.  Obviously the other big factor in durability will be the quality of the factory finish. This is where I would do some online research for meaningful info. since IMHO, anything a retailer tells you regarding quality can be suspect. Finally, it's my experience that the big box stores, and lumber liquidators, are really good places to avoid if you want durable products from knowledgeable suppliers.

[The Architect]

It's worse than described here.  Most today are compressed paper and glue.  These **SERIOUSLY** expand with the tiniest amount of water. 

My floor hasn't had any problems from occasional spilling or cleaning. We don't use a mop (use a swiffer-type sprayer instead), but that hasn't been an issue. These floors are designed to fit together tightly enough that water doesn't penetrate the waterproof coating on top.

Obviously, if you've got standing water on the floor it'll cause problems. Few floors won't have problems though, and no wood floor won't have problems. Dump a 24 oz soda on the floor and soon clean it up? You should be fine. Dump the same soda and leave it for a few days? You'll probably have issues.

[jeromedawg]

It's worse than described here.  Most today are compressed paper and glue.  These **SERIOUSLY** expand with the tiniest amount of water. 

My floor hasn't had any problems from occasional spilling or cleaning. We don't use a mop (use a swiffer-type sprayer instead), but that hasn't been an issue. These floors are designed to fit together tightly enough that water doesn't penetrate the waterproof coating on top.

Obviously, if you've got standing water on the floor it'll cause problems. Few floors won't have problems though, and no wood floor won't have problems. Dump a 24 oz soda on the floor and soon clean it up? You should be fine. Dump the same soda and leave it for a few days? You'll probably have issues.

Speaking of which, how do you go about repairing a portion of a laminate/wood floor that has had this type of prolonged damage? Do you basically cut it out? Or hope that it happened near an edge and remove it piece by piece reverse of how it was put together (e.g. "unclick unlock" lol)

[The Architect]

Speaking of which, how do you go about repairing a portion of a laminate/wood floor that has had this type of prolonged damage? Do you basically cut it out? Or hope that it happened near an edge and remove it piece by piece reverse of how it was put together (e.g. "unclick unlock" lol)

Cut it out and cut off part of the new board's click-channel when putting it back in. Not sure how you're supposed to do it with a floating floor, but you'd need to glue it in if you cut the channel apart. You could unclick everything, but you'd also need to remove the baseboards again.

You won't get around that issue with engineered wood, and might not with real wood - if you have a mess that soaks through the tight fitting laminate, it'll soak through and ruin any wood floor.

[Spork]

It's worse than described here.  Most today are compressed paper and glue.  These **SERIOUSLY** expand with the tiniest amount of water. 

My floor hasn't had any problems from occasional spilling or cleaning. We don't use a mop (use a swiffer-type sprayer instead), but that hasn't been an issue. These floors are designed to fit together tightly enough that water doesn't penetrate the waterproof coating on top.

Obviously, if you've got standing water on the floor it'll cause problems. Few floors won't have problems though, and no wood floor won't have problems. Dump a 24 oz soda on the floor and soon clean it up? You should be fine. Dump the same soda and leave it for a few days? You'll probably have issues.

My previous house had about 1800 square feet of "old school" laminate:  glue up and chipped wood core.  Never had an issue.  Stuff got spilled on it regularly for 10 years. 

I had one room of newer laminate: paper core, snap together with the same laminate top.  All were Pergo brand.

The paper core curled at the seams over time due to small, quickly cleaned up spills.   It wasn't standing water.  I've seen it at lots of houses with laminate: curling and cupping at the seams.