Author Topic: Dishwasher Wiring Question?  (Read 5972 times)

shuffler

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Dishwasher Wiring Question?
« on: July 11, 2014, 01:18:59 AM »
Hey All -

My dishwasher stopped working yesterday, so I removed the kick-plate (is that the right term?) and found a hole had been burned/fused through the junction box.

Clearly something has gone wrong with the wiring, and I want to try to understand why the original installer-guy wired it the way he did.

This is what I found about his original wiring job:
  *  My house has solid-wiring; i.e. the wire is a solid piece of metal, not twisted strands.
  *  The installer didn't wire the bare ground-wire into the G-post.  Instead it looks like he bent it back around to be in contact w/ the dishwasher's chassis.
  *  The installer wired the white/neutral wire into the N-post.  That seems pretty straight-forward.
  *  The installer took a separate piece of stranded black wire, hooked that into the L-post, and then used a twist-connector-cap to join the stranded-black wire with my house's solid-black/live wire.

It appears that the twist-connector-cap is where the problem started.  It is significantly melted.

So ... what would be the reason for him to use an extra piece of stranded wire and then twist-cap it onto my house's live wire?
And why not wire up the ground?
Is this "up to code"?!?

Thanks for any help.  And my apologies if my terminology is off.

- Shuffler

« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 01:21:24 AM by shuffler »

RiskDown

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Re: Dishwasher Wiring Question?
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2014, 03:17:39 AM »
The answer = he was being a lazy idiot

I've installed a few thousand dishwashers and never once have I installed one like that...provided your electrical is not doing something which is not up to code....trip breaker, cleanup, and put them in the right place, under the screws.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 03:28:31 AM by RiskDown »

shuffler

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Re: Dishwasher Wiring Question?
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2014, 03:43:31 AM »
Thanks for the reply.  I can now tell my wife that "the internet told me" I could fix this myself.  ;^)

But ... how was this laziness on his part?  It seems to me like he had to do *more* work to strip the extra piece of wire and then cap-connect it.  Wouldn't it have been easier to do exactly what you suggested, and connect the house's wires directly?  .... Or maybe it was just idiocy.  :^S

RiskDown

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Re: Dishwasher Wiring Question?
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2014, 02:19:06 PM »
Perhaps they had bad vision, and had past difficulty with feeding the wires back into the channels behind the screws... Or it's possible that one time, they screwed up and fully removed a screw, not understanding the mechanism... then had to wrestle with how to put it back together, because there are some models where the mechanism will fall out, if you fully remove the screw. Perhaps they thought your fat wires wouldn't fit?

Who knows... You'd be surprised with general contractors leave 500 cigarette butts underneath the dishwasher/drop in/cabinets.... Attitude = if the owner isn't going to see it, what does it matter?

Milspecstache

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Re: Dishwasher Wiring Question?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2014, 07:06:08 AM »
You are lucky as bad connections like that sometimes go on to result in overheating, followed by arc-welding, and then a full-blown fire.  Good job finding it yourself!

shuffler

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Re: Dishwasher Wiring Question?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2014, 06:36:24 PM »
Everything cleaned up nice, and the dishwasher is running happily.

Thanks everyone for the confirmation and the encouragement!

Nords

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Re: Dishwasher Wiring Question?
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2014, 08:24:18 PM »
Congratulations, you've survived your house fire.  Don't tell your insurance company.

Perhaps they had bad vision, and had past difficulty with feeding the wires back into the channels behind the screws... Or it's possible that one time, they screwed up and fully removed a screw, not understanding the mechanism... then had to wrestle with how to put it back together, because there are some models where the mechanism will fall out, if you fully remove the screw. Perhaps they thought your fat wires wouldn't fit?
Three things:
If the installer is presbyopic, then it's a lot easier to twist wires together with a wirenut than to get under the dishwasher with a bright light and magnifying glasses and a long-handled screwdriver to try to manipulate wires in the terminal post.

The installer might have thought that they needed to wrap the wires around the screws instead of just sticking the wires under the terminal screws. 

Or maybe the load screw is cross-threaded and didn't turn easily for their screwdriver-- easier to just clip a wire and use a wirenut.  But they managed to connect the neutral wire to the lug properly, so I don't understand why they made the wirenut choice on the live wire.

That groundwire "trick" is just sheer lazy license-revocation incompetence. 

You might have more problems than the one you solved.  Does the dishwasher have its own circuit breaker, and did it trip for this fire? 
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 08:28:45 PM by Nords »

shuffler

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Re: Dishwasher Wiring Question?
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2014, 09:01:54 PM »
Or maybe the load screw is cross-threaded and didn't turn easily for their screwdriver ...
It turned easily for me when I fixed it.

You might have more problems than the one you solved.  Does the dishwasher have its own circuit breaker, and did it trip for this fire?
It still had 110v when I went to fix it.  I found the breaker it was on, and when I switched off the breaker I didn't notice anything else around the house lose power.  So yes, it seems like it has its own breaker, and no, it didn't trip.

So you're suggesting that the breaker is bad as well?  I.e. not tripping when it should have?

Nords

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Re: Dishwasher Wiring Question?
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2014, 09:55:05 PM »
Or maybe the load screw is cross-threaded and didn't turn easily for their screwdriver ...
It turned easily for me when I fixed it.

You might have more problems than the one you solved.  Does the dishwasher have its own circuit breaker, and did it trip for this fire?
It still had 110v when I went to fix it.  I found the breaker it was on, and when I switched off the breaker I didn't notice anything else around the house lose power.  So yes, it seems like it has its own breaker, and no, it didn't trip.

So you're suggesting that the breaker is bad as well?  I.e. not tripping when it should have?
Now that the dishwasher is properly grounded to a real ground (at the electric panel by the ground wire connection), I think the breaker will function as designed.  In the previous installation, the high-resistance connection in the connection box turned it into a 110v heating device until the wirenut melted and the two twisted wires fell apart (leaving the connection box energized with 110v).  The neutral wire was providing a conducting path back to the circuit breaker, so that worked as designed, but the connection box was not adequately grounded so the current didn't have anywhere else to flow.

If the dishwasher had been able to draw more power (into, for example, the windings of its motor while it was running) or if it had a better path to ground (through the ground wire-- or through you!) then the circuit breaker would've sensed a high current flow and tripped out. 

Although if enough current went through you to trip the circuit breaker, that event may have only been of interest to your survivors.

When you "go to fix" an electric appliance, it's always a good idea to start by opening the circuit breaker (or unplugging it, or shutting off the light switch on the circuit) until you find out why the appliance stopped working in the first place.  The big, obvious appliance fires are relatively straightforward to troubleshoot (once the fire is out).  The little tiny fires that burn out the appliance while leaving only a whiff of scorched insulation-- those are the ones that kill you when you show up to figure out the problem.

A neighbor once gave us a table lamp that had "stopped working".  I checked the cord and the switch and the bulb and didn't see anything wrong with it, so I plugged it in (to a receptacle under the table) and switched it on.  Luckily I was wearing shoes and sitting on a plastic chair, because the switch shorted out and the entire four feet of cord went up in flames in a microsecond, filling the room with acrid smoke and scorching the table/tablecloth.  The event didn't draw enough current to trip the breaker, but it sure generated some excitement.  We scampered out of there, opened the breaker, unplugged the lamp, and then opened all the windows to clear the air. 

After everyone had a chance to settle down I checked the lamp switch for resistance & continuity with a multimeter, and it seemed fine.  I replaced the cord and then took the lamp outside to test.  I plugged into a power strip, and the shorted switch did its thing again.  This time the power strip fused its own switch and then blew its internal fuse.  I replaced the lamp's switch, tested it on a new power strip, and it was fine.  But I doubt that neighbor will ever ask us for repair help again...

Of course if a Navy servicemember had brought me that lamp on a submarine, we would have filled a rubber room with insulated electricians and done a thorough job of "deranged gear checks" before turning it on.  We probably would have found the bad switch with advanced test equipment (and more experienced technicians).  But I was complacent and sure that I knew what I was doing. 

shuffler

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Re: Dishwasher Wiring Question?
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2014, 12:50:32 AM »
Thanks.  That all makes sense, and is a good little story about the lamp too.

When you "go to fix" an electric appliance, it's always a good idea to start by opening the circuit breaker (or unplugging it, or shutting off the light switch on the circuit) until you find out why the appliance stopped working in the first place.
In this case, we'd had our hands all over it (loading it) before we tried to start it and realized that it wasn't working.
Also, my breaker box is horribly mis-labeled (thank prior owners!), so even if I had thrown the breaker labeled "dishwasher", it wouldn't have helped.

So the safest thing would have been to throw the big breaker to interrupt power to the whole house, then open up the dishwasher, and proceed from there.

What I ended up doing was opening the box on the dishwasher and using a multimeter to determine the wires were still hot.  Then I took many trips back and forth between the dishwasher and the breaker box, until I finally found the right breaker.

... anyhow, I've labeled the "dishwasher" breaker now.  :^S

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!