Anyone here a concrete expert?

[waltworks]

We had some exterior stairs and a retaining wall poured for our basement this fall. I was shoveling snow off of them today and noticed this (photos). Concrete is spalling *all over* and there are a couple of weird soft spots (I can stick my finger into them!) where it's liquid and pitted down 3/4" or so.

We were careful not to use any ice-melt products on these stairs, so I'm thinking the contractor blew it big time (hello, demand letter...) but in the meantime I need some ideas for solutions to get the stairs through the winter as best as possible - keeping in mind that the temperature (air) is not going to go above about 40F for the next couple of months. Having the concrete above 50f or so is not going to happen for a while.

Anyone have ideas? I can probably dry things out enough to apply some kind of repair (polymer/concrete goo) material but I don't know if that'll be enough to hold it through until spring.

Thanks guys!

-W

[fishnfool]

Not an expert but I've poured and finished quite a few concrete projects. To me it looks like a bad batch of concrete, the mix is lacking enough cement for the amount of sand. Just looking at the hole you poked into in the pics, it looks all sand. So even if it was 80 degrees outside I wouldn't expect these stairs to last long.

[pudding]

Not an expert but I've poured and finished quite a few concrete projects. To me it looks like a bad batch of concrete, the mix is lacking enough cement for the amount of sand. Just looking at the hole you poked into in the pics, it looks all sand. So even if it was 80 degrees outside I wouldn't expect these stairs to last long.

I've worked with a fair bit of concrete over the years and agree with fishnfool. It almost looks like it wasn't mixed thoroughly and the bit you're poking was just sand, or mostly just sand when it was placed. 

[paddedhat]

Yea, sadly, you are not going to be successful with any patching or coatings. As the old timers like to say in my neck of the woods, patching that mess is like putting a silk dress on a pig. It might make the pig look a little prettier, but it's still a pig. Somewhere in this chain of events, starting with the concrete supplier an ending with the finisher, somebody knew that things had turned to shit, and decided to play though and not worry about the fact that you, the customer, was getting fucked.

[waltworks]

Yeah, my assumption is that I'll have to threaten/sue the concrete guy to fix it.

In the meantime, any advice? Cover the stairs with rubber treads? Bolt down some diamond tread metal stuff? Polymer of some kind to get it through the next few months? This is the entrance to our rental basement apartment so it gets daily use and needs to be at least safe/functional if not pretty for the short term.

-W

[pudding]

Just a thought here. If it turns out to be spots here and there and you keep the steps, I've seen a couple of times where companies that specialize will apply a coating of fine stones mixed with epoxy and its looks good.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=pebble+epoxy+concrete+overlay&espv=2&biw=1440&bih=826&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiUjtybh_PRAhVL8mMKHTD9CKEQ_AUIBigB


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf1CXZ6Ogeg

[waltworks]

Interesting idea, but definitely impractical right now in mid-winter.

I'm looking at various rubber/metal tread ideas right now as stopgap solutions. I could probably take some diamond tread/expanded metal stuff and bend it to fit the nose of the stair, and then just put down 7 of them...

Maybe things will survive a few more months (it's been ~3 months since the stairs went in) until spring. We're not at the point where it's dangerous... yet. It really, really looks like shit, though, which is not good for a nightly rental like we're running.

-W

[Metric Mouse]

I would throw rubber mats or something to cover up the worst of it. I would be concerned that if I glued/screwed anything to the steps that the contractors would argue and say that was part of the cause of the failing, even though it clearly wasn't.

Also, this is just me, but I would call the pourers right away and get started on the process. File a complaint, even though they can't fix it now, I would let them know that only 3 months in things are not looking good.

[TomTX]

Contact them now, make a claim.

[waltworks]

We've already been in touch with the GC (we didn't deal directly with the concrete subcontractor). He is supposed to come "take a look and make a plan" tomorrow.

I made it pretty clear that I think the "plan" is basically someone needs to come remove the whole stair and repour it. We'll see what develops.

-W

Contact them now, make a claim.

[Frugal Lizard]

If it looks this bad already then there is no way it isn't a total RR - rip and replace.  I have had concrete spall in a similar way to your photos but it is really difficult to diagnose from a photo.  In my last circumstance it was laid too slowly on a hot day. Water added at the time to keep it workable weakened the surface.  Once it starts to crumble it is a major accelerating failure from snow and ice and rain collecting in the low area.  I have made installers rip out a whole sidewalk with a few areas of flaking within the one year warranty.  If it is a mix issue, then the whole batch is questionable.  If it is an installation timing issue - then the whole area installed at that time and later is questionable.  I have had contractors argue with me about it a bit but none of them have been willing to give an extended warranty with a cash security for the entire amount for an extended warranty.

[waltworks]

Yes, this is definitely a rip/replace situation. I am hopeful that it won't require going to court to get the GC or concrete sub to take care of it. 2 of the 6 walkway slabs have already cracked all the way through, too (poured at the same time as the stair).

In the meantime, I'm crossing my fingers we can make it a couple months until spring and warmer temps. I think I'm going to install (lay down with a bit of liquid nails) some rubber treads just to try to improve the appearance, but I think it is clear there is no saving it at this point.

Thanks for the info, everyone. On the plus side, I'm doing a lot of reading about concrete and perhaps on my way to being able to DIY something like this in the future.

-W

[Fishindude]

Yea, sadly, you are not going to be successful with any patching or coatings. As the old timers like to say in my neck of the woods, patching that mess is like putting a silk dress on a pig. It might make the pig look a little prettier, but it's still a pig. Somewhere in this chain of events, starting with the concrete supplier an ending with the finisher, somebody knew that things had turned to shit, and decided to play though and not worry about the fact that you, the customer, was getting fucked.

Most of this is correct, however don't start pointing fingers and throwing people under the bus yet.  Every now and then you get a bad mix, or someone makes a mistake in the finishing or placement, and stuff like this happens.  It's no good, it's not what you paid for, and no patching or coating will ever make it right.
Contact your contractor, and if he's worth a hoot, he will jackhammer those steps out and re-pour new ones.  Doesn't matter what it is or how it happened, it's your contractors problem, and he should make it right.

[paddedhat]

Yea, sadly, you are not going to be successful with any patching or coatings. As the old timers like to say in my neck of the woods, patching that mess is like putting a silk dress on a pig. It might make the pig look a little prettier, but it's still a pig. Somewhere in this chain of events, starting with the concrete supplier an ending with the finisher, somebody knew that things had turned to shit, and decided to play though and not worry about the fact that you, the customer, was getting fucked.

Most of this is correct, however don't start pointing fingers and throwing people under the bus yet.  Every now and then you get a bad mix, or someone makes a mistake in the finishing or placement, and stuff like this happens.  It's no good, it's not what you paid for, and no patching or coating will ever make it right.
Contact your contractor, and if he's worth a hoot, he will jackhammer those steps out and re-pour new ones.  Doesn't matter what it is or how it happened, it's your contractors problem, and he should make it right.

I didn't advocate throwing anybody anywhere. Fact is, if you have a mix that's not fully consolidated at the point of delivery, the finisher is well aware of issues once he starts to float and trowel. The sand pockets are an excellent example of this. If they were prevalent throughout the mix, the finisher knew he was finishing trash. In my rural area "site mixers" are popular for some applications. These are trucks that provide metered delivery, much like getting propane or home heating oil delivered. They take all the raw ingredients, sand, aggregate, cement and water, and mix them as they head down a worm drive delivery chute.  The problem is that they do not ( at least with the few local suppliers in my area) create a well consolidated, high quality mix, and as a result, doing "flat work", sidewalks and floors, is very difficult, and usually results in a poor quality finished product. "Batch plant" suppliers can have similar issues. In the past, some of my local suppliers were know for lower quality product, and others had no issues. Generally, if you are running a modern plant, are doing state and federal specification product for highways, bridges, etc.. you end up providing good stuff to local residential guys. OTOH, there are concrete contractors that will go out of their way to order from the supplier who is ten bucks a yard less, even if the stuff is crap.

[Fishindude]

I'm mostly retired now, but my company pours in the neighborhood 40-50,000 CY of concrete per year.
We've seen all sorts of concrete failures over the years, some our fault, some due to weather surprises, some due to bad product.   Customers are paying for brand new, first class work and that is what you should give them.  On more occasions than I'd like to admit we tore it out and replaced at our own expense.

It's a little more costly to fix a concrete screw up than something like a bad paint job, sloppy drywall, a door that isn't working right, etc., but you shouldn't be selling the stuff if you won't stand behind your work.

[Metric Mouse]

I'm mostly retired now, but my company pours in the neighborhood 40-50,000 CY of concrete per year.
We've seen all sorts of concrete failures over the years, some our fault, some due to weather surprises, some due to bad product.   Customers are paying for brand new, first class work and that is what you should give them.  On more occasions than I'd like to admit we tore it out and replaced at our own expense.

It's a little more costly to fix a concrete screw up than something like a bad paint job, sloppy drywall, a door that isn't working right, etc., but you shouldn't be selling the stuff if you won't stand behind your work.

How much convincing should it take to get a crew to rip/replace instead of patch? I know a person who had a flaky floor in their freshly poured garage. I think after much back and forth about patching they finally settled on getting it coated with some sealer/paint stuff, rather than replace it like it probably should have been.

[paddedhat]

Highly dependent on the ethics and values of whoever is in the position to make the call.

 I once fired a contractor who did a horrendous job on a floating slab on a detached garage. His crew arrived unprepared to properly form the edges of the pour, and their weak forms buckled severely. He had to return later and saw a square, straight edged slab out of a freeform mess he created. At that point the floor was anything but flat, and there were anchor bolts missing, since they were outside of the cut line. Not only did he whine about the fact that I thought that he didn't deserve a dime for the sorry-assed mess he created, he wanted an extra $300 since it "took more concrete that he thought it would".  Unfortunately, the settlement satisfied neither of us, since he was the son of a good friend of mine, and it was best not to start a total war over it.  Fishindude obviously did work in an ethical manner, but I wouldn't say that that's to be expected from everybody, or even the majority of the players in the trade.

[Metric Mouse]

Highly dependent on the ethics and values of whoever is in the position to make the call.

 I once fired a contractor who did a horrendous job on a floating slab on a detached garage. His crew arrived unprepared to properly form the edges of the pour, and their weak forms buckled severely. He had to return later and saw a square, straight edged slab out of a freeform mess he created. At that point the floor was anything but flat, and there were anchor bolts missing, since they were outside of the cut line. Not only did he whine about the fact that I thought that he didn't deserve a dime for the sorry-assed mess he created, he wanted an extra $300 since it "took more concrete that he thought it would".  Unfortunately, the settlement satisfied neither of us, since he was the son of a good friend of mine, and it was best not to start a total war over it.  Fishindude obviously did work in an ethical manner, but I wouldn't say that that's to be expected from everybody, or even the majority of the players in the trade.

I've never met a concrete crew I liked to work with. I've had some that can turn out an acceptable finished product, but out of nearly a dozen I've never found one that impressed upon me the points of professionalism, attention to detail, preparedness or customer service.

[paddedhat]

Highly dependent on the ethics and values of whoever is in the position to make the call.

 I once fired a contractor who did a horrendous job on a floating slab on a detached garage. His crew arrived unprepared to properly form the edges of the pour, and their weak forms buckled severely. He had to return later and saw a square, straight edged slab out of a freeform mess he created. At that point the floor was anything but flat, and there were anchor bolts missing, since they were outside of the cut line. Not only did he whine about the fact that I thought that he didn't deserve a dime for the sorry-assed mess he created, he wanted an extra $300 since it "took more concrete that he thought it would".  Unfortunately, the settlement satisfied neither of us, since he was the son of a good friend of mine, and it was best not to start a total war over it.  Fishindude obviously did work in an ethical manner, but I wouldn't say that that's to be expected from everybody, or even the majority of the players in the trade.

I've never met a concrete crew I liked to work with. I've had some that can turn out an acceptable finished product, but out of nearly a dozen I've never found one that impressed upon me the points of professionalism, attention to detail, preparedness or customer service.

I concur, nobody ever quit medical school to wheelbarrow wet mud. I've had mixed results, and found that when it comes to foundation walls, the only way I got a really nice finished product was to be on the job, and monitoring the whole process. My favorite memory, when it comes to dealing with crews, happens a couple of years ago. I had hired a small outfit, and the recession was still raging in our market. They were having a rough time completing a modest foundation for me, since it was tough finding help. They couldn't find more than a few days per week of hours for the few laborers they needed, and didn't exactly end up with top notch help. At one point I'm "volunteering" by working alongside of two guys from the company, as we set forms, just to get the job moving along. It was a cold, day in late fall. These two took a smoke break, and were are all leaning against a low wall and absentmindedly staring into the woods together, when the one says, " ya know, this was always my favorite time of the year to get out of jail". The other quietly responds with, "na, this time of year can suck, especially if you got locked up in the middle of summer, and they shove you out the gate in the same shorts and t-shirt you showed up in". First guy  ends this fascinating exchange with, "yea, you're probably right, it's better to go in, in winter".  Now I never expected to discuss string theory, or foreign policy with these two, but.....................

[lthenderson]

I've never met a concrete crew I liked to work with. I've had some that can turn out an acceptable finished product, but out of nearly a dozen I've never found one that impressed upon me the points of professionalism, attention to detail, preparedness or customer service.

I generally steer away from any crews tied to a particular concrete plant and go with small independent crews. The crew I use currently are very good and I'm always impressed with their attention to detail, preparedness and customer service. However, word quickly gets out and now I have to plan six months out if I want to get them onto a project. I will concede that they aren't the most professional at times in dress or educational levels of the crew, but like paddedhat said, who would expect that of someone pushing around mud.

[Fishindude]

Much of the residential concrete work I've seen would be unacceptable work by most of our industrial customers standards.  They throw a basement in the ground in a hurry, but it's pretty crappy construction; minimal rebar, poured too wet so it's easy to work with, minimal vibration and poorly consolidated, honey combed walls, they all use fibermesh in slabs so they don't have to pull wire which results in a crummy surface, zero or not enough control joints to control cracking, floor slabs poorly finished, improper curing and cold weather protection, etc., etc.

[paddedhat]

Much of the residential concrete work I've seen would be unacceptable work by most of our industrial customers standards.  They throw a basement in the ground in a hurry, but it's pretty crappy construction; minimal rebar, poured too wet so it's easy to work with, minimal vibration and poorly consolidated, honey combed walls, they all use fibermesh in slabs so they don't have to pull wire which results in a crummy surface, zero or not enough control joints to control cracking, floor slabs poorly finished, improper curing and cold weather protection, etc., etc.

Not a single peep from me on that statement. I used to have to stop my residential wall guy from loading up on calcium flake, when he called for concrete in the dead of summer. They would do it to most of their hot weather form work, since it meant getting to the bar stool a bit quicker at the end of the day. During the boom times of a decade back, that outfit required their crews to set and pour a foundation a day, then spend the next stripping and relocating to the next wall.

[GilbertB]

Ugh!
That is crap, needs removal and repour.

When doing concrete, be it by mixer or poured,  during the first pour, I always stick my hand in and then check texture in between my thumb and finger - then quickly put said hand in clean water - I can't see if concrete is good, but can instantly feel if it is wrong.
High psi will be creamier, filler more sandy, but it should always feel "concrety".

After the hand test, I simply slash with a trowel from time to time for consistency.


Note: only stick hand in for a second, then wash of immediately, if left on, that stuff will destroy your skin.