Any horror stories due to old wiring?

[srob]

Is it safe to keep as long as it is not overloaded? Has anyone had bad/dangerous experiences with old wiring?

I have a place with small apartments with mostly old wiring. It is the old romex type stuff (technically sheathed cable?) with rubber insulation over the individual wires and a cloth sheath on the outside. There is no ground on most outlets. Electrical capacity is somewhat limited but otherwise I haven't had any issues in the one year that I have owned it. There are no 220 circuits-- ranges, heat and water heater are natural gas. Relatively modern breakers have been installed, probably in the 80's.

It is an old brick building with plaster walls. I have had an electrical contractor out to give me a bid on a total rewire. He took a look and never got back to me. I haven't had much luck getting others out to even look at the place.

Any advice?

[kendallf]

Take a look at switches and outlets -- are they mechanically attached well in the walls?  Are the receptacles tight and do appliance plugs stay tight in them?  Pull some face plates.  Any sign of heated or charred insulation, arcing?  When you turn lights or appliances on or off, do other lights dim or flicker badly?

If these checks come out OK, I'd leave it.  If you want to do a moderate cost upgrade, you can put in GFCI breakers and the circuits will actually be safer (IMO) than grounded receptacles alone.

[srob]

Hey thanks for the suggestions Ken. I'll try out that stuff.

GFCI breakers sound like an appealing idea. Do you know if they make them for this breaker type? The place is a mix of the two types of panels/wiring shown--with some built later than others.  Btw do you know how a gfci breaker differentiates a normal load from a fault? just curious...

I'm still interested in hearing about old wiring fiascos if anyone has any...

[starlight]

srob,

I would also consider if there are enough receptacles.  Some older homes I've been in with old wiring (especially knob and tube type) have only one per bedroom or just a few in the other living areas.  Some occupants then might be tempted to over load the circuit, or string wires from across the room, increasing the danger of fire or electrocution. 

I also agree that GFCI outlets would be safer (as I assume you don't have a ground wire with the old system) and a much less expensive option than opening up walls in places and running new cables.

I live in 1930's vintage home that still has knob and tube wiring and some new circuits that I've run myself (and have had inspected of course).  It seems pretty common, but doesn't give one maximum peace of mind. 

[starlight]

I've known of at least three homes in our small college town that have burned down due to old knob and tube wire.  In at least one, squirrels had gotten in to the attic crawl space and chewed up the cloth sheathing. 

[kendallf]

Hey thanks for the suggestions Ken. I'll try out that stuff.

GFCI breakers sound like an appealing idea. Do you know if they make them for this breaker type? The place is a mix of the two types of panels/wiring shown--with some built later than others.  Btw do you know how a gfci breaker differentiates a normal load from a fault? just curious...

I'm still interested in hearing about old wiring fiascos if anyone has any...

The first type (old fabric sheathed wiring) looks like a GE breaker.  They make GFCI breakers for these.  I am not impressed with the look of that sub-panel (?).. hope the rest of the house is wired better than that.  No clue on the second ones, although that wiring is newer. 

A GFCI breaker works by comparing the current in the hot and neutral; if there's more than a few milliamps difference, it trips and shuts the power off. 

I don't have any horror stories but we're living in a house built in 1949 with mostly original fabric sheathed wiring.  I added a couple of circuits when I was remodeling, but in general ours looked good in the walls and attic (and even under the house).

[paddedhat]

I replaced all the wall switches and plugs in our house once. I did fine up until the last room. I got distracted and cross-wired a three way wall switch. This blew a fuse, or so i thought. Only it would not reset.

It turns out our house, built in 1965, had the infamous Zinsco circuit breakers. They are faulty. The circuit did not trip. Instead, the wires from the junction box to the family room burned themselves up. In the walls. This could have burned the house to the ground.

I had to hire an electrician to fish new wires to replace the burned ones and to replace the entire circuit panel. I was annoyed my home inspector missed this key point.

Call me cranky, but I have seen too many home inspectors "miss" things like this, since it would blow the deal, and they don't want to get a rep. for being difficult with the hand that feeds them, which is the real estate industry, NOT the buyer. That said, any time a Zinsco panel hits the garbage can, it's a good day.

To the OP and others who venture into replacing receptacles, or doing much of anything with the very early style cloth covered Romex, it needs to be done with great care. Basically, if it's not disturbed at all, it's reasonably safe. When you start removing devices (switches, receptacles, light fixtures, etc) from boxes, you end up manipulating individual wires which are rubber coated. In many cases, this rubber will be extremely brittle, and crack, or flake off the second it's disturbed. It's not a catastrophe, and it can be repaired with shrink tubing, or good electrical tape, but it isn't the same as working with modern Romex, no ground, and failing insulation is not a great combo.

[GuitarStv]

Is your cable aluminum or copper?  I wouldn't be concerned about copper, but aluminum is a problem.

[srob]

Thanks for the replies everybody!

starlight: Yes that is probably the biggest problem I have--there are not very many receptacles, and as you can see in the older panel picture, only two circuits per apartment in the older section! I have seen extensions cords and power strips in some apartments.  I have heard tenants say they have to keep in mind what appliances they use concurrently, or they trip the breaker. Each apt has a fridge and in the summer, a window ac unit.

kendalf: Ha ha I wish that was just a subpanel, but you are looking at the main panel for each apt. :(  I think the newer panels are sylvania brand?

snackdog: scary to hear about those faulty breakers...and that your house could have burned down. tsk tsk on that inspector!

paddedhat: Fortunately the place does not look like it has been messed with too much...the receptacles and fixtures seem to be mostly original and I will probably leave them, maybe just put in some gfci breakers.

guitarstv: It is copper fortunately. The older cloth sheathed wire is copper with zinc coating I believe, so it looks like aluminum but predates it.

I noticed that some breakers are 20 amp, some 15. It seems to be pretty random. How do I tell if the wiring can handle the 20 amp breakers or if they should be 15? It makes me nervous to think that someone in the past could have just switched out 20 for 15 without knowing what they were doing.

[Papa bear]

I have a rental that had been "remodeled" prior to me purchasing.   The place almost burned down because the knuckleheads put in 20amp breakers on a circuit that still had 14 gauge knob and tube wiring.  College kids plug in multiple window AC units, and the plug shorted and melted in my wall. 

Check to make sure all the wire on 20 amp circuits are 12 gauge.

Knob and tube can still be incredibly safe (hot and neutral are separate and run feet away from each other!) but become problematic when things get added. 

If you have no ground, consider running a ground to your grounded copper plumbing (if your receptacle is near bath/kitchen/basement).


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[srob]

yeah i worry about my wires melting too. I think the wire is 12 ga but i'll check. I hadn't thought about having a ground run from the plumbing. Would that be code? I think most of the plumbing is galvanized steel not copper...would that still work? It might be kind of easy to do in the kitchen and bath...

[paddedhat]

I have a rental that had been "remodeled" prior to me purchasing.   The place almost burned down because the knuckleheads put in 20amp breakers on a circuit that still had 14 gauge knob and tube wiring.  College kids plug in multiple window AC units, and the plug shorted and melted in my wall.

Maybe, but probably not. Wire sizes per the National Electrical Code are oversized for most residential wiring. Adding five amps of load to a 14 gauge wire hardly means the place will be aflame shortly. Chance are the situation, as you described, was a result of a worn out receptacle, loose connections behind the receptacle, or a defective plug.

Check to make sure all the wire on 20 amp circuits are 12 gauge.

Knob and tube can still be incredibly safe (hot and neutral are separate and run feet away from each other!) but become problematic when things get added. 

If you have no ground, consider running a ground to your grounded copper plumbing (if your receptacle is near bath/kitchen/basement).

Sorry but this has been a serious code violation for several decades now. First, the whole current concept of adding a bond wire to the plumbing is to bond the metallic plumbing system to eliminate a difference of potential between the plumbing and electrical systems, it is not intended to be a "ground" on branch circuit. In the past, city water piping was used as the service ground, but most jurisdictions have stopped  this practice, since it's not the water co's responsibility to maintain metal pipe systems to provide grounding, when they repair or replace their lines. Second, there no longer is any reasonable expectation that a metal water pipe system, inside the house, can have any long term integrity, as many repairs and renovations to existing metallic water piping involve the use of various plastic pipe products. Bottom line, this technique can be dangerous, and it's no longer allowed to be used as a default ground for branch circuits


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[justajane]

Most of the knob and tube in our 1920s home has been replaced, but there is some running in the attic. It had not been accessed in at least 30 years. A few months after we moved in, we cut a new hole in the attic and blew insulation on top of it. Doh! I was extremely worried about it, but we consulted with a local electrician, and he said that the likelihood of fire was extremely low. It has been 8 years since that discussion, but sometimes I still get nervous about it.

[paddedhat]

Most of the knob and tube in our 1920s home has been replaced, but there is some running in the attic. It had not been accessed in at least 30 years. A few months after we moved in, we cut a new hole in the attic and blew insulation on top of it. Doh! I was extremely worried about it, but we consulted with a local electrician, and he said that the likelihood of fire was extremely low. It has been 8 years since that discussion, but sometimes I still get nervous about it.

I recently came across this info. in a wiki article. The last line should put you at ease.

Currently, the United States National Electrical Code forbids the use of loose, blown-in, or expanding foam insulation over K&T wiring.[9] This is because K&T is designed to let heat dissipate to the surrounding air. As a result, energy efficiency upgrades that involve insulating previously uninsulated walls usually also require replacement of the wiring in affected homes. However, California, Washington, Nebraska, and Oregon have modified the NEC to conditionally allow insulation around K&T. They did not find a single fire that was attributed to K&T, and permit insulation provided the home first passes inspection by an electrician.[

[justajane]

Most of the knob and tube in our 1920s home has been replaced, but there is some running in the attic. It had not been accessed in at least 30 years. A few months after we moved in, we cut a new hole in the attic and blew insulation on top of it. Doh! I was extremely worried about it, but we consulted with a local electrician, and he said that the likelihood of fire was extremely low. It has been 8 years since that discussion, but sometimes I still get nervous about it.

I recently came across this info. in a wiki article. The last line should put you at ease.

Currently, the United States National Electrical Code forbids the use of loose, blown-in, or expanding foam insulation over K&T wiring.[9] This is because K&T is designed to let heat dissipate to the surrounding air. As a result, energy efficiency upgrades that involve insulating previously uninsulated walls usually also require replacement of the wiring in affected homes. However, California, Washington, Nebraska, and Oregon have modified the NEC to conditionally allow insulation around K&T. They did not find a single fire that was attributed to K&T, and permit insulation provided the home first passes inspection by an electrician.[

Thanks! That does put me at ease. I can't remember exactly what the electrician said way back when, but he said there was an infinitesimal chance that lightning could cause it to spark, but then you would need two of them to spark at once and ignite. It was something like that. Not very probable. I still wish we had replaced it, but we would have to suck it all out and then put it back in after the electrical work was done, which would be a huge and messy job.

[speerwoman]

We recently bought a 120 year old home in Toronto.The home has had a number of different electrical wiring services done to it over the years. The main service is modern 200 Amp with a modern full circuit breaker panel (done in last 15 years.) However, a substantial portion of the existing wiring in service is still knob and tube - roughly 30%.One of our friends send us this link
http://www.theshockdoctors.ca/electrician-services/knob-tube-wiring-removal/
It says that knob and tube wiring is really hazardous..The shock doctors are one of the best licensed electricians in Toronto. We are planning to hire them to replace the old wiring.If the complete removal is not possible. We will upgrade to 100 amp service

[paddedhat]

We recently bought a 120 year old home in Toronto.The home has had a number of different electrical wiring services done to it over the years. The main service is modern 200 Amp with a modern full circuit breaker panel (done in last 15 years.) However, a substantial portion of the existing wiring in service is still knob and tube - roughly 30%.One of our friends send us this link
http://www.theshockdoctors.ca/electrician-services/knob-tube-wiring-removal/
It says that knob and tube wiring is really hazardous..The shock doctors are one of the best licensed electricians in Toronto. We are planning to hire them to replace the old wiring.If the complete removal is not possible. We will upgrade to 100 amp service

So, you are determining that you have a "real hazard" based on a website of an electrical contractor who happens to specialize in removing knob and tube wiring. Hum.................. no conflict there, eh?  After thirty years as a licensed electrician, I can pretty safely state that K&T is typically far from a "hair on fire" emergency issue for most homeowners. It can be dangerous, particularly if it has been altered by additions and repairs using improper techniques and materials. It is far from optimal, and should be removed as part of an overall renovation program. However, sensationalized B.S from sources like the website you linked to, is of little value. 

As for hiring that particular outfit, I would really recommend spending some time getting references and competitive bids from at least two other competent providers. IMHO, they come off as a little too slick for my tastes. I have seen, all to often, how a customer gets screwed out of 3-4X the real value of a job, since they went with the outfit that spends thousands a month on advertising, and has a fleet of pretty trucks, and well dressed techs. As an example, if a neighbor calls to report that they have no water, I'll give then the number of a local well driller I use. If it's a bad well pump, and it's a common installation, they will get the job done in a few hours (often under the watchful eye of the patriarch, who has been doing this for over six decades) and charge you $90-1200. If you go with the local outfit with the slick website, a $5k/month advertising budget,  and $80K trucks that are rolling billboards, you will be lucky to get away with a $2500 bill. The other issue is integrity. You would be surprised to see how often a problem can be resolved with a $20 part and an hour in labor, but ends up costing the customer hundreds or thousands of dollars, since they don't have a clue as to the truth, and are at the mercy of the contractor.

The Buddha said it best. The answer is in the middle way. A contractor who shows up to bid a job in a $60K pickup, jumps out of the thing dressed in khakis and a white oxford shirt, and whips out a big glossy handout, is just as bad as the guy who rolls up with the smoke belching rig that barely runs and has his business name on the door, written in stick on letters from Lowes. Either way, you are going to get hurt.

[waffle]

I'm in the middle of a kitchen renovation. We totally gutted the kitchen down to the studs. When unhooking the plumbing under the sink I start seeing arcing and smoke coming from below the cabinet through the hole the plumbing came up through. Ran and shut off the breakers. Turns out some genius in the 80's thought it would be a great idea to have warm feet while doing the dishes and installed a heater under the sink. The wiring ran right up against the water pipes for the sink and had a hole worn through the coating of one of the wires. I had no idea the heater was even down there. I'm just glad it didn't burn the house down or electrocute me as I was handling the pipes.

[JLR]

We bought an 80yo house with old wiring. Cloth covered, no circuit breakers.
Had trouble finding someone local to rewire it. Seems there was plenty of easier work available in town. Heard all sorts of excuses: too hot, would have to wait until winter. Too messy a job. Will take ages to do. Will cost about $10 000.
Ended up getting someone from the next town (40 mins away). They did it in one day. $3500, including a new board and breakers.

[srob]

paddlehat- That is one of the reasons I asked about old wiring on this forum! It is hard to get unbiased info online about old wiring because it seems that most info on the net is from electrical contractor sites who have a vested interest in declaring the old stuff unsafe.


waffle- Thanks for that horror story--very scary! I would think that your breaker should have tripped on its own--you might want to get it checked out. It is comforting to know that your issue was caused by incompetent modifications rather than old wiring per se.

JLR- Yes! I have contacted 8 or so companies and do not even have a bid. :( It must be a very unpleasant job. I think I will stick with my old wiring for now.

On a related note, I recently had an electrical panel replaced in another apartment building. It had older style breakers and a subpanel. It was a fairly complex setup for a 1bdrm apt and the electrician showed me that two of the circuits had jumper wires from the main feed to the individual breakers, bypassing those two breakers and effectively hardwiring those circuits in! Seriously, who does that?! It had been wired that way for decades probably...

[rachael talcott]

I once had a six-figure insurance claim on a house built in 1940 with knob-and-tube wiring.  Most of it had been replaced.  The culprit, according to the fire marshall's investigation, was the doorbell transformer in the basement. 

[reader2580]

Even newer homes can have electrical issues if a uneducated homeowner or an unlicensed hack did the work.  My house was built in 1980.

I bought the house as a foreclosure.  My father and I had to rewire more than 50% of the house to make it safe and modern.  (No damage was done to wiring due to foreclosure.)  We found the wires coming into breaker panel from meter were all loose and neutral has gotten hot.  We also found a melted wire nut and an outlet that was burned due to loose wire.  The basement bathroom had an open box.  There were cut live wires in the basement.  Someone was too lazy to fish wires up into the attic for an addition so they mounted a conduit on the exterior wall of the house.  The ugly conduit got removed and the wiring done properly.  The conduit had not even been secured to the house again after the siding was replaced.  Most of the outlets in the house had no tension and would not hold a plug.  Every switch, outlet, and light fixture got replaced.

[NoraLenderbee]

We bought a house in 2004 that still had some knob-and-tube wiring. State Farm would not sell us homeowner's insurance because of it. Allstate was happy to get our business, so it wasn't a problem. (We've since replaced all the wiring.) It probably depends a lot on your state and locality, as well as insurance company.

[BudgetSlasher]

In my experience, if there is a problem with the wiring (any wiring really) it is much more likely be because of the installation or subsequent modifications than the age of the wiring. Aluminum wiring being the exception.

[jba302]

I installed a vent fan in my bathroom over the summer. Went to click the circuit off and a quarter of the house went dark. I had to write down how the circuits traveled, most of them ended up something like - "M. bedroom, Main bathroom,half bath, end half of hallway + NW basement corner + basement hallway". I think that's when I started drinking scotch.

[GuitarStv]

I installed a vent fan in my bathroom over the summer. Went to click the circuit off and a quarter of the house went dark. I had to write down how the circuits traveled, most of them ended up something like - "M. bedroom, Main bathroom,half bath, end half of hallway + NW basement corner + basement hallway". I think that's when I started drinking scotch.

This is the norm in my experience, not the exception.  I thought nonsensical wiring practice was part of code . . .

[dragoncar]

I died in an electrical fire 20 years ago.  Spooky right?

[Thegoblinchief]

I died in an electrical fire 20 years ago.  Spooky right?

I thought fire couldn't kill a dragon?

[Zaga]

We were doing some work above the furnace and DH noticed a loose wire in the ductwork.  So we called my brother over to help, he's an electrician.

In the end they found a junction box, several loose and live (!) wires that were uncapped (!!) in the ductwork.  At one point DH managed to burn a hold right through a duct because one of the live wire ends touched it.  There was a large shower of sparks.  It took them over 6 hours to get all the wires safely removed, they were both black from the waist up at the end.

And this crap was in the ceiling for at least 8 years from what we were able to determine, from the time the furnace was replaced.  I'm horrified that the person who replaced our furnace is still out there somewhere, fucking with other people's houses.

This is far from the only thing wrong in our house, but most of the rest is plumbing horror stories.  I can go on for pages about that!

[justajane]

We were doing some work above the furnace and DH noticed a loose wire in the ductwork.  So we called my brother over to help, he's an electrician.

In the end they found a junction box, several loose and live (!) wires that were uncapped (!!) in the ductwork.  At one point DH managed to burn a hold right through a duct because one of the live wire ends touched it.  There was a large shower of sparks.  It took them over 6 hours to get all the wires safely removed, they were both black from the waist up at the end.

And this crap was in the ceiling for at least 8 years from what we were able to determine, from the time the furnace was replaced.  I'm horrified that the person who replaced our furnace is still out there somewhere, fucking with other people's houses.

This is far from the only thing wrong in our house, but most of the rest is plumbing horror stories.  I can go on for pages about that!

This makes me slightly nervous, because the company who installed our furnace 5 years ago came across as slightly incompetent. I should probably bring another company out to check their work.

[paddedhat]

We were doing some work above the furnace and DH noticed a loose wire in the ductwork.  So we called my brother over to help, he's an electrician.

In the end they found a junction box, several loose and live (!) wires that were uncapped (!!) in the ductwork.  At one point DH managed to burn a hold right through a duct because one of the live wire ends touched it.  There was a large shower of sparks.  It took them over 6 hours to get all the wires safely removed, they were both black from the waist up at the end.

And this crap was in the ceiling for at least 8 years from what we were able to determine, from the time the furnace was replaced.  I'm horrified that the person who replaced our furnace is still out there somewhere, fucking with other people's houses.

This is far from the only thing wrong in our house, but most of the rest is plumbing horror stories.  I can go on for pages about that!

This makes me slightly nervous, because the company who installed our furnace 5 years ago came across as slightly incompetent. I should probably bring another company out to check their work.

Sadly, this is far from unusual. I once spent hours tracking a bizarre electrical issue in a recently remodeled kitchen. In the end I discovered that the electrician who did the renovations had encountered a short, and decided to carefully cut a ground wire,  in a junction box, in such a way that it was nearly impossible to detect. This stopped the issue of the breaker tripping, but created unbelievable safety issues. I have, on several occasions, spent a few minutes in a home, easily correcting an electrical issue that a previous service electrician gave up on. Essentially telling the customer that he didn't have a clue what the problem was, LOL.

These anecdotes in no way indicate that I'm anybody special, I know many electricians that are far sharper than I am.  It's more about the reality that spending big bucks to have service, or improvements, done by "professionals" often means that you are paying for anything but.

[dilinger]

I moved into my house 2 years ago, and paid an electrician to replace all the knob and tube and ungrounded outlets.  It was a mess - he left it half-finished for 6 months, charged me 30% more than quoted, didn't do all the stuff he said he would, etc.

Recently, I installed a through-wall heat pump, and in the process moved a supposedly grounded outlet to a new location.  The outlet had an old a/c from 1985 plugged into it for 30 years.   It turns out it wasn't grounded at all (old 2-wire romex with 3-prong outlet), and I ended up fishing new grounded romex through the wall.  The old outlet had burn marks on the plastic and metal next to one of the wire clamps (I forget if it was the neutral or live wires; I really should've taken a picture).

[argonaut_astronaut]

I bought a house build in 1935 with knob and tube and a modern wired basement. I got several bids to replace it:

• $5,000 - New service panel, pull new wires where it was easy, GFCI the rest.
• $30,000 - New service panel, replace all existing wire, no new outlets (even though a 1935 house has about two receptacles per room).

I decided to tackle it, but calling it knob and tube was inaccurate. It had all the worst problems, subtitle "Oh the HORROR":

• K&T buried in insulation
• K&T spliced to aluminum wiring not in a junction box
• K&T spliced to copper in box, but ground wires cut off to appear as though none was available
• Zinsco box infamous for breakers that catch on fire with out breaking
• Secondary breaker hidden in a small cabinet with screw in fuses and a throw switch as seen in any self-respecting mad scientists lab
• Ceiling fans installed in standard box. Upon examination, ceiling had 1/2" drywall over lath and plaster. Lath was structural and holding, but drywall was dust inside paper for 24" around fan due to vibration. Latex paint the only reason it hadn't snowed yet.
• Electric stove in basement "apartment" installed next to shower. Curtain showed signs of melting
• Electric stove in basement "apartment" had doghouse door cut in either side to allow sewer pipe to run through.
• Single circuit for entire main floor labelled "main"
• Refrigerator had grounding compressor so would provide a mild shock to anyone who touched the stainless sink and the steel exterior of the fridge at the same time.
• Garage was wired by stringing in ground wire overhead with no support (also on "main" circuit)
• "Modern wiring" in basement mostly incorrect.
• Found signs of charring on wire with no box or clamp going into 220V electric baseboard.

[gliderpilot567]

I installed a vent fan in my bathroom over the summer. Went to click the circuit off and a quarter of the house went dark. I had to write down how the circuits traveled, most of them ended up something like - "M. bedroom, Main bathroom,half bath, end half of hallway + NW basement corner + basement hallway". I think that's when I started drinking scotch.

This is the norm in my experience, not the exception.  I thought nonsensical wiring practice was part of code . . .

I live in a community that was hastily built in the early-mid 2000's during the boom. All of the construction in my house is shoddy quality, including the electrical work. From discussions with some other handy neighbors, this seems to be the norm in the neighborhood.

When an outlet goes out somewhere in the house, the quest is on to find a "magic GFCI" somewhere else in the house that controls it. May not be in the same room, nor even the same floor nor same part of the house.

Master bath vanity lights were installed without even putting a box in the wall! They apparently just punched a hole in the drywall, pulled wire through and bolted the fixture to the wall.

There are switches that don't do anything (a few were extras wired to ceiling fan fixtures, but several were not even connected to wires at all, which I verified!) And there are some switches wired in parallel, in the same switch panel... for example in my oldest son's room, either of two switches on the same plate will turn the light on. Straight SPST parallel; not three-way switches. So you have to turn them both off to turn off the light.

I was replacing the front porch lights one day (cause the old ones were ass ugly and we found nice LED ones at Costco) and found five white (neutral, or so I thought) wires spliced together inside the junction box. Disconnecting them caused the kitchen, which is on the opposite side of the house, to go dark. This I thought was odd, so I decided to test all the wires with a voltmeter to see if any other weirdness was going on. The black wire was correctly routed through the switch, it turned out. However.... the black wire turned out to be neutral, and all those white wires were hot. So the entire path through the light (and into the kitchen) was always hot and backwards wired. While in other parts of the house, the wiring is correct!

I too drink scotch... I have slowly gone around and fixed most of the unsafe/illegal wiring conditions, but the merely annoying ones (like my son's parallel switch) I haven't bothered with.

[Jack]

The bedrooms in my house each have two (correctly wired, as far as I know) switches in order to accommodate the ceiling light and a potential ceiling fan, but the boxes in the ceiling aren't fan-rated. I thought having to climb up into the attic to replace the box when I installed the master bedroom fan was a pain in the ass, but that's nothing compared with some of the stuff you guys have to deal with!

[ShoulderThingThatGoesUp]

The bedrooms in my house each have two (correctly wired, as far as I know) switches in order to accommodate the ceiling light and a potential ceiling fan, but the boxes in the ceiling aren't fan-rated. I thought having to climb up into the attic to replace the box when I installed the master bedroom fan was a pain in the ass, but that's nothing compared with some of the stuff you guys have to deal with!

You can buy a box that comes with what amounts to a small jack. You twist the jack until it touches the joists on either side of the box, then hang the box on it. Fan-rated box installed, no attic or digging through a floor.

[geekette]

I may have done something stupid...

Several years ago, I installed a (rarely used) ceiling fan in a bedroom.  I put in a ceiling fan rated box, but to get power, I cut a wire (in the attic) and connected a new wire (basically a Y).  I used wire nuts, but didn't put it all in a box; the connection is just hanging out in the insulation.

Should I climb up there this winter and try to find it and run it through some sort of box?

[robartsd]

I may have done something stupid...

Several years ago, I installed a (rarely used) ceiling fan in a bedroom.  I put in a ceiling fan rated box, but to get power, I cut a wire (in the attic) and connected a new wire (basically a Y).  I used wire nuts, but didn't put it all in a box; the connection is just hanging out in the insulation.

Should I climb up there this winter and try to find it and run it through some sort of box?

Yes, you should install a junction box to house the connection. You should have located an accessable location allong the existing wiring where you could add a junction box when you originally made the splice. If you can't mount a junction box (lack of support or access) where your current splice is located, you may need to pull longer wire or add multiple junctions to make it meet code.

[paddedhat]

Yea, that's a big violation you created. All splices go in junction boxes. All metal junction boxes require proper Romex connectors, and a grounding with the proper green screw. All boxes need proper covers, and all boxes need to be accessible forever, as in, do not sheetrock over them later.

[paddedhat]

I decided to tackle it, but calling it knob and tube was inaccurate. It had all the worst problems, subtitle "Oh the HORROR":

• K&T buried in insulation
• K&T spliced to aluminum wiring not in a junction box
• K&T spliced to copper in box, but ground wires cut off to appear as though none was available
• Zinsco box infamous for breakers that catch on fire with out breaking

I chopped a few dozen off your list, since that horror doesn't need to be repeated. Having spent hundreds of hours of my career troubleshooting and repairs some pretty entertaining crap, I can only say that you may have hit the "hillbilly electrical championship, lifetime achievement award"  winner's house.  I've run into some real unforgettable disasters, but at no point have I ever encountered such a rich collection of "holy shit" discoveries in one place. Hopefully you took pics. of the stove, because that the kind of thing that circulates for decades online, and ends up in slide presentations at code update and fire investigation classes. I find that many folks tend to overdramatize safety issues in residential work, but this case is quite the exception. Knowing all that, I don't think I would of even slept in the place. [/list]

[paddedhat]

I bought a house build in 1935 with knob and tube and a modern wired basement. I got several bids to replace it:

• $5,000 - New service panel, pull new wires where it was easy, GFCI the rest.
• $30,000 - New service panel, replace all existing wire, no new outlets (even though a 1935 house has about two receptacles per room).

Amazing how difficult and expensive this can be. I recently met a contractor who only does residential rewiring in a very old, east coast city. He has six guys on the crew and makes a good living at it. He told me that the labor involved can be mind boggling sometimes. There are days when two qualified electricians only end up running a few dozen feet of wire, having spent most of the day chopping and channeling solid plaster over masonary walls, or drilling and fishing wire to end up with a few outlets rough in after a full day of ass busting, dirty work.

When I sold the family homestead after my mom passed, I got flagged on a few electrical issues on the inspector's report. The house was 100 years old with exterior walls of plaster over three layers of brick. Since it was nearly impossible to rewire, I replaced all the two prong outlets with new two prong units, market them as GFCI protected, and installed new GFCI breakers in the panel, all per code requirements. Hours before settlement, the buyer's realtor calls and say the deal is off unless the house is rewired up to current standards. My reply was, good luck with that, I'll have your deposit money returned........................ They then asked for compensation for having to rewire the place. I responded with the fact that I would make arrangements to have the contracted voided, and get their down money returned immediately, per their request.  Fortunately, that brought a dead halt to the bullshit, and we settled later in the day. Nothing like a clueless client, and a realtor who thinks I'm going to give away $30K or so, at the last minute, LOL. [/list]

[dragoncar]

Yea, that's a big violation you created. All splices go in junction boxes. All metal junction boxes require proper Romex connectors, and a grounding with the proper green screw. All boxes need proper covers, and all boxes need to be accessible forever, as in, do not sheetrock over them later.

I'm confused... are you saying there are no junction boxes inside the walls?  This reminds me I saw some junction box without a cover in the attic.  Sigh.  My attic is messed up (found a really old coke can) and I don't have the nimble toes to really fix it.  Want to install some plywood catwalking but don't want to smoosh my insulation.

[argonaut_astronaut]

I decided to tackle it, but calling it knob and tube was inaccurate. It had all the worst problems, subtitle "Oh the HORROR":

• K&T buried in insulation
• K&T spliced to aluminum wiring not in a junction box
• K&T spliced to copper in box, but ground wires cut off to appear as though none was available
• Zinsco box infamous for breakers that catch on fire with out breaking

I chopped a few dozen off your list, since that horror doesn't need to be repeated. Having spent hundreds of hours of my career troubleshooting and repairs some pretty entertaining crap, I can only say that you may have hit the "hillbilly electrical championship, lifetime achievement award"  winner's house.  I've run into some real unforgettable disasters, but at no point have I ever encountered such a rich collection of "holy shit" discoveries in one place. Hopefully you took pics. of the stove, because that the kind of thing that circulates for decades online, and ends up in slide presentations at code update and fire investigation classes. I find that many folks tend to overdramatize safety issues in residential work, but this case is quite the exception. Knowing all that, I don't think I would of even slept in the place.

Concerning sleeping in the place: as with any project, you don't know how deep the rabbit hole goes until you put a light in there and take a look. Once I found the first aluminum splice in the attic I decided that I couldn't trust anything else in the house which is when it changed from a replace the knob and tube project to a re-wire everything project. It took me months of work while living there with extension cords and work lights that I would carry with me from room to room.  I ended up bringing it all up to code increasing the number of receptacles about tenfold, but had similar concerns about sleeping in the place and what I had gotten myself into. I think I have a photo of the stove somewhere, but they would be on film rather than digital so they aren't at my fingertips.

The hardest part about re-wiring lath and plaster walls that I didn't anticipate was the 3" of plaster (concrete basically) at the bottom of every stud cavity. With a finished second floor and a partially finished basement I decided to pull the ceiling off of the basement and run everything down through the basement. For the central walls I could often drill up from the bottom with a hammer drill, but for the outside walls over the foundation there was only a 3" gap between the sheeting and the top of the foundation so nothing could happen from below. I ended up bending some steel in a 'Z' shape that would let me hammer down through the new receptacle hole I cut in the wall to break up the plaster. I would often have the goal of getting one box cut and strung per evening after my day job and sometimes I wouldn't get that far. If the bid to just replace the two receptacles per room was going to be $30K then it would have cost $90K to do the job that I did.

BTW, I only listed the electrical violations, but there were plenty of other plumbing, structural, and HVAC catastrophes in that house and didn't seem appropriate to hijack the thread.

[paddedhat]

I'm confused... are you saying there are no junction boxes inside the walls?  This reminds me I saw some junction box without a cover in the attic.  Sigh.  My attic is messed up (found a really old coke can) and I don't have the nimble toes to really fix it.  Want to install some plywood catwalking but don't want to smoosh my insulation.

If a junction box is concealed in a wall, or above a "hard" ceiling, drywall, plaster, etc....... it must remain accessible for repairs. Remember there are always going to be boxes in walls, but they are usually outlet boxes for switches, receptacles and light fixtures, which are accessible. If you have a box under an attic floor and want to make it legal, you can always cover it with a removable section of plywood, and mark it as such.

[Jack]

The bedrooms in my house each have two (correctly wired, as far as I know) switches in order to accommodate the ceiling light and a potential ceiling fan, but the boxes in the ceiling aren't fan-rated. I thought having to climb up into the attic to replace the box when I installed the master bedroom fan was a pain in the ass, but that's nothing compared with some of the stuff you guys have to deal with!

You can buy a box that comes with what amounts to a small jack. You twist the jack until it touches the joists on either side of the box, then hang the box on it. Fan-rated box installed, no attic or digging through a floor.

I considered that, but decided against it for some reason I can't remember now. (Maybe I couldn't get the old box out from below, or something.)

[Zaga]

Yeah, junction boxes have to be accessible.  That reminds me of when we pulled down the ceiling in our basement, we're in the process of remodeling down there.  Not only was there an excessive amount of mouse droppings and nests, but we found junction boxes that we knew nothing about.  The ceiling panels were nailed up.  When we redo the ceiling these boxes will be accessible for sure!

[Tabitha]

Our oddball "finished basement" probably dates from the 70's or 80's. Ceiling lights are fluorescent pairs. Garage quality with frosted plastic over them. Okay so far, but peeping above the dropped ceiling revealed they're "wired" back with older 2 wire extension cords, as were a few other thing we've removed. A tear out n redo of the basement is on the wouldn't it be nice list. We've settled for removing the unsafe for now.

[paddedhat]

Our oddball "finished basement" probably dates from the 70's or 80's. Ceiling lights are fluorescent pairs. Garage quality with frosted plastic over them. Okay so far, but peeping above the dropped ceiling revealed they're "wired" back with older 2 wire extension cords, as were a few other thing we've removed. A tear out n redo of the basement is on the wouldn't it be nice list. We've settled for removing the unsafe for now.

When I was working as a residential service electrician, one of our guys went to a job to address wiring issues in a finished basement. The homeowner had wired the whole thing in lamp cord, the light gauge stuff you use for table lamps and light extension cords.  The best part was that he mounted all the wire by sticking thumb tacks in the middle of the wire, in the groove between the hot wires. I guess staples would have blown the budget? I have seen finished basements with everything from receptacles mounted without boxes, to recessed ceiling lights made of a painters lamp and tin foil reflector, behind the opaque plastic drop ceiling panel. Some pretty creative shit out there, and don't forget, firemen need a job too.

[justajane]

We needed a light switch moved over slightly in the bathroom that we are currently gutting to the joists. No problem, right? I figured $250 and an hour tops. Well, about five hours later, a whole lotta cursing and evident frustration from the electrician, he came downstairs covered in dust and insulation. It turns out that the entire bathroom was a fire waiting to happen. Randon wires in the lathe walls. Knob and tube in the ceiling, etc. I don't know enough about electrical things to know exactly what the problem was, but $600 worth of work later, the electrician said, "Well, at least it's a lot safer in there now."

I'm guessing after this, we should probably do the rest of the upstairs in our 1920s home. I doubt that was the only room up there with the same problems. It makes me glad we never really ran a space heater in that bathroom before and after showers or anything else that drew a decent amount of electricity.

[srob]

Good stories! I suppose it is comforting to know that there are a lot worse places out there ;)

Thumb tacks in lamp wire! Where do people come up with that stuff?

The funny comment about a throw switch reminded me of this pic--this wonder was in a different rental of mine and was live without a cover. I had it replaced. Did people have to use those types of switches in the olden days to change out a fuse? yikes.