Author Topic: Another roof question  (Read 3355 times)

dragoncar

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Another roof question
« on: July 13, 2017, 07:07:33 PM »
So my home has a "40 year roof" (architectural asphalt shingles) installed din 1995 -- thus there is theoretically 18 years of life left on this roof.  Nonetheless, I noticed that a portion of the roof over the garage had a leak last winter -- it wasn't severe, and I only noticed because some boxes stacked above the garage door showed minor water stains.  I will subjectively say that there are some granules in the gutters, and when I did some work on the roof to remove a satellite dish the shingles I replaced were brittle enough to separate/crack if I wasn't careful.

I also recently blew in cellulose insulation during which time I observed the roof deck for obvious leaks and did not notice anything.  But clearly my observational skills are not great for minor leaks.

I'm mostly worried that the cellulose will get very wet and collapse my ceiling.  Future inspection will be limited due to the amount of insulation I added. 

If I was going to stay in this house forever, I would probably go ahead and replace the roof.  But there's a possibility we will move to a lower COL area in the next few years.

So it seems my options are to try to repair this particular leak, reroof just that section (this could be a red flag to buyers?), or just let it leak a bit in the garage -- unless, of course, this is a sign that my roof is toast and I will have an emergency on my hands this winter.

Maybe I should get an inspection?

Mostly looking for general advice.  I started considering doing a metal roof myself, although there are some complicated areas where I'm not sure about proper flashing.  I'm not comfortable with exposed fasteners or "boot and caulk" style flashings for pipes -- but that's what they seem to use on the Metal Sales Inc. roof MMM installed.  My house is also 2 stories so I'd need to buy a harness system to feel safe.  And I'd need to replace a decent amount of trim that appears to have dry rot (something that could fall under section 1 repairs anyways).  Not sure what else I'd find once I got the shingles off.

just looking for general comments/advice.  What would you do, and am I missing anything big?

lthenderson

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Re: Another roof question
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2017, 12:04:30 PM »
Nonetheless, I noticed that a portion of the roof over the garage had a leak last winter -- it wasn't severe,

Just based upon this statement and the location of the leak near the perimeter of the roof, I would probably guess the leak was the result of ice damming.  Ice builds up in your gutters to the point that when it starts melting (further from the gutter first), the water leaks up under the shingle and finds a way in. If this is the case, you can fix the "leak" by solving your ice damming problem. In my experience, 80% of ice damming can be prevented by increasing ventilation, usually adding more air intake, to the attic above your garage. Make sure insulation isn't blocking air intakes which also can cause ice damming. 15% of the time you can add more insulation and solve the problem. The remaining 5% sometimes you have to add heated cables to the gutters. 

Were there a lot of icicles hanging from the gutters on that side of the house this past winter?

kendallf

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Re: Another roof question
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2017, 12:20:23 PM »
So my home has a "40 year roof" (architectural asphalt shingles) installed din 1995 -- thus there is theoretically 18 years of life left on this roof.  Nonetheless, I noticed that a portion of the roof over the garage had a leak last winter -- it wasn't severe, and I only noticed because some boxes stacked above the garage door showed minor water stains.
>>SNIP
just looking for general comments/advice.  What would you do, and am I missing anything big?

The warranty "life" is meaningless, as you're realizing.  My question to you would be: what's the section of roof above the garage leak area look like?  Is it a valley or area with flashing?  Are you in a climate for ice buildup as suggested by lthenderson?  If there's obvious flashing damage, missing shingles, or you had lots of ice and the rest looks good, maybe repair that one area for now.

Otherwise, with a 22 year old shingle roof, I'd be budgeting for a replacement soon. 

On your metal roof questions, you can install a standing seam roof if you don't want exposed fasteners.  The pipe boots are indeed usually installed on top of the metal roof and feature a rubber ring and flat sheetmetal surround; they're caulked to the roof.  They can and do degrade and need replacement; fortunately replacement is as simple as backing the attaching screws out, pulling the old boot up and off the pipe, cleaning some caulk residue, and replacing them.

dragoncar

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Re: Another roof question
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2017, 05:35:21 PM »
Thanks all -- I should have mentioned that ice is not an issue.  In California, so we do get some dry baking sun in the summer.

The area that I noticed the problem is just a relatively low pitched portion that extends about 5-10 feet out just over the last section of my garage (second story is partially over garage).  There is flashing where it meets the second story (rake wall?).  That flashing seems in poor shape, with some caulked nail penetrations but is also under an eve.  Hopefully that's the real issue -- still have to get up there with a hose to diagnose this summer.


I'm tending to agree that the roof needs to be replaced relatively soon.  I just know that if I replace it and then immediately move, I'm not recouping my costs.  Unless you think I can get a positive return by doing the work myself?

This is a relatively hot real estate market so my buyers probably won't be super picky about the roof as long as it's not in terrible condition (it generally looks fine).  I've seen much worse in the neighborhood sell quickly.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 05:37:22 PM by dragoncar »

AlanStache

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Re: Another roof question
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2017, 06:28:25 PM »
If you can isolate the leak area you can try "through the roof" (available on amazon).  But that might be a big if.

Roof warranties are amortized so a 50 year warranty gets you almost nothing near the end. 

With selling you are legally obligated to disclose defects in the property.  That said I had no recourse with the people I bought from who literally painted over water stains.

You could call up some real estate agents to see what you might get back for a new roof; mine was "cheaper" than I would have thought.  If your home is at the 'starter' end you might get more ignorant buyers than if you are at the higher end and people know what they are looking at. 

dragoncar

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Re: Another roof question
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2017, 06:59:29 PM »
If you can isolate the leak area you can try "through the roof" (available on amazon).  But that might be a big if.

Roof warranties are amortized so a 50 year warranty gets you almost nothing near the end. 

With selling you are legally obligated to disclose defects in the property.  That said I had no recourse with the people I bought from who literally painted over water stains.

You could call up some real estate agents to see what you might get back for a new roof; mine was "cheaper" than I would have thought.  If your home is at the 'starter' end you might get more ignorant buyers than if you are at the higher end and people know what they are looking at.

Right now, the only known defect is the leak in the garage, which if I fix is no longer a defect.  I'm pretty sure I can fix this as I estimate it's just a few drops per hour of rain or something on that order of magnitude.  I wouldn't expect to collect on the warranty... do you know of anyone for whom it was worth the trouble?  I'm not the person who installed this roof, so I don't even know if it's transferrable or I can get the documents

AlanStache

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Re: Another roof question
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2017, 07:20:04 PM »
...
Right now, the only known defect is the leak in the garage, which if I fix is no longer a defect.  I'm pretty sure I can fix this as I estimate it's just a few drops per hour of rain or something on that order of magnitude.  I wouldn't expect to collect on the warranty... do you know of anyone for whom it was worth the trouble?  I'm not the person who installed this roof, so I don't even know if it's transferrable or I can get the documents

collect on the warranty: the one I got is transferable to a new owner once with a nominal fee to the roofer or manufacturer.  that seemed like a normal deal here. 

If you can fix the known bad area I guess the next question is how well can you sleep at night when its raining not knowing it there are more leaks?

paddedhat

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Re: Another roof question
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2017, 02:51:17 PM »
Don't waste a minute of your time trying to collect on a warranty. First, if your not the original owner, or properly transferred the warranty when you took ownership, chances are, it's void. That would be assuming that the original shingle warranty was transferable in the first place. Second if you were told that the shingles had a "forty year warranty" then they came with a document that explains that they are essentially using the words "forty year warranty" as a marketing game, and have no intention of paying anything on your claim. First, you would need to file a claim, then convince a manufacturer's rep. that you indeed have a defective product. Fact is, the vast majority of roof leaks have absolutely nothing to do with product failures, but are installation defects, or failures of related components, flashing, flanges, ridge vents, defective or non-existent ventilation ,etc.... Then if you succeed in proving that the material is defective, once you are past the first five, ten, fifteen years, depending on contract language, you will be receiving a pro-rated credit toward the purchase of new shingles from the manufacturer, that's all. So, the company might end up selling you shingles at a 40-50% discount. You still need to pay for permits, and a roofer to remove of the old roof and install the new one. So at this point a successful claim might result in a new roof that's 20% cheaper than what your neighbor would spend.  Now this is all in theory anyway, since you probably are no longer covered by the warranty, and the rep. has a 99% chance of determining that the product is anything but defective. 
gravel in the gutter, BTW, is normal and expected as the roof wears. Good luck.

Papa bear

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Re: Another roof question
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2017, 03:49:57 PM »
Thanks all -- I should have mentioned that ice is not an issue.  In California, so we do get some dry baking sun in the summer.

The area that I noticed the problem is just a relatively low pitched portion that extends about 5-10 feet out just over the last section of my garage (second story is partially over garage).  There is flashing where it meets the second story (rake wall?).  That flashing seems in poor shape, with some caulked nail penetrations but is also under an eve.  Hopefully that's the real issue -- still have to get up there with a hose to diagnose this summer.


How low pitched?  Is it less than 4/12? Anything less steep than 4/12 and you shouldn't be using asphalt shingles and would need to use something for a flat roof at that point.



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dragoncar

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Re: Another roof question
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2017, 06:00:16 PM »
Thanks all -- I should have mentioned that ice is not an issue.  In California, so we do get some dry baking sun in the summer.

The area that I noticed the problem is just a relatively low pitched portion that extends about 5-10 feet out just over the last section of my garage (second story is partially over garage).  There is flashing where it meets the second story (rake wall?).  That flashing seems in poor shape, with some caulked nail penetrations but is also under an eve.  Hopefully that's the real issue -- still have to get up there with a hose to diagnose this summer.


How low pitched?  Is it less than 4/12? Anything less steep than 4/12 and you shouldn't be using asphalt shingles and would need to use something for a flat roof at that point.



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I don't have time to measure it right now, but I doubt it's too low for shingles.  I can easily walk on it, but stuff would roll off if placed there.

Fishindude

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Re: Another roof question
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2017, 08:33:00 AM »
90% Odds the leak is at a flashing, hip, valley or penetration.   A little inspection by a knowledgeable roofer can likely easily determine where it is and fix it for very little cost.
If this isn't something you can figure out yourself, jut call a reputable roofer.

Paddlehat is right regarding shingle warranties, lifespan, etc.   Shingle roofs tend to last 15-25 years max, regardless of how they are labeled and sold, and warranties are pretty worthless, about like tire warranties.


dragoncar

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Re: Another roof question
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2017, 01:49:21 PM »
90% Odds the leak is at a flashing, hip, valley or penetration.   A little inspection by a knowledgeable roofer can likely easily determine where it is and fix it for very little cost.
If this isn't something you can figure out yourself, jut call a reputable roofer.

Paddlehat is right regarding shingle warranties, lifespan, etc.   Shingle roofs tend to last 15-25 years max, regardless of how they are labeled and sold, and warranties are pretty worthless, about like tire warranties.

Thanks, that's what I figured.  Although I did assume there was some non-quantifiable longevity improvement in a 40 vs 20 year shingle.  Sounds like it's a good idea to get some kind of inspection if I can't figure it out myself so that's what I'll do.  Thanks for the advice and I'll come back someday and update (it doesn't rain here in the summer so I'm not really in a hurry except to avoid having an expensive emergency down the road)

There's a place where a downspout spills pretty close to flashing so I'm thinking that could be the culprit

If the flashing is coming up, can I replace all the flashing in that area?  I don't have much experience with siding (hardiboard) would it be a huge pain?
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 01:55:13 PM by dragoncar »

paddedhat

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Re: Another roof question
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2017, 01:59:18 PM »
Actually there is a pretty large difference between different "year rated" shingles, and their longevity. The lightest twenty year three tabs can weight as little as a bit over 2lbs a sq. ft. and typically come in three bundles per square, which is 100 sq. ft. Fifty year architectural shingles can be pushing twice that weight, and it takes five bundles to make a square. More material weight typically equates to longevity, but..................... it doesn't necessarily add up to the claim of 20, 30, forty years between replacing them.  Durability is highly dependent on many factors, direction of exposure, ventilation, latitude of the installation, pitch, etc, and some roofs will actually live to the end of their warranty and beyond. Some will never even get close.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 02:07:10 PM by paddedhat »

 

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