Author Topic: The Principle of Constant Optimization: What's Your Myers-Briggs?  (Read 64281 times)

Goldielocks

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Re: The Principle of Constant Optimization: What's Your Myers-Briggs?
« Reply #300 on: December 16, 2015, 09:07:35 AM »
LOL,   there have been some pretty weird ideas in the past by psychologists.   I don't think that we can trust that they are always (or even often?) right.  Perhaps just "usually helpful"...

Psychology is a very new field, relatively speaking, with only a few areas well studied even today.   Look at all the emerging studies on happiness, a pretty new topic for this field, overall.

That's true, but in order to discredit a personality test, you aim to discredit an entire profession that uses it?  Despite it's vagueness, even you would have to admit that the Myers-Briggs isn't random.

 Moonshadow, just the opposite, that just because a psychologist did not create it does not mean it is hocus  pocus .  In fact, in the 60's and 70's those psychologists were all about correcting abnormal behaviour, so keeping them out of MBTI is a good thing.

Matchweed, I don't think we are a spectrum, for this purpose,  the question is "what do you prefer A or B?" As a method of grouping and sorting. That is pretty clear. It doesn't ask if you like or use both A and B and how much.

matchewed

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Re: The Principle of Constant Optimization: What's Your Myers-Briggs?
« Reply #301 on: December 16, 2015, 09:20:42 AM »
LOL,   there have been some pretty weird ideas in the past by psychologists.   I don't think that we can trust that they are always (or even often?) right.  Perhaps just "usually helpful"...

Psychology is a very new field, relatively speaking, with only a few areas well studied even today.   Look at all the emerging studies on happiness, a pretty new topic for this field, overall.

That's true, but in order to discredit a personality test, you aim to discredit an entire profession that uses it?  Despite it's vagueness, even you would have to admit that the Myers-Briggs isn't random.

 Moonshadow, just the opposite, that just because a psychologist did not create it does not mean it is hocus  pocus .  In fact, in the 60's and 70's those psychologists were all about correcting abnormal behaviour, so keeping them out of MBTI is a good thing.

Matchweed, I don't think we are a spectrum, for this purpose,  the question is "what do you prefer A or B?" As a method of grouping and sorting. That is pretty clear. It doesn't ask if you like or use both A and B and how much.

Cool, thankfully science doesn't care if you think we exist on a spectrum. It knows you do. Like I said above, it doesn't matter if you think the sun orbits the earth. The truth is just the opposite.

MoonShadow

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Re: The Principle of Constant Optimization: What's Your Myers-Briggs?
« Reply #302 on: December 16, 2015, 02:15:15 PM »

But it's not valid. Whether psychology is a hard science or not is irrelevant to the matter. The test is useless at predicting some behaviors.


Some behaviors, sure.  MBPT is useless at predicting suicidal predisposition, as an example.  That's not what it was designed to do.  It was designed for, and is rather useful for, predicting which members of a corporate work group are most (and least) likely to get along without conflicts.  It's just one tool.  A hammer can't drive screws, don't expect one tool to do too much.

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Did you not read the links? Essentially any particular person is really somewhere along a spectrum at any particular point in time, they may not be at the same point depending on their circumstances between tests. So what use is the test (assuming any validity) unless you're taking it to find out where you are at this instant?


Yes, it's a snapshot in time.  People do change their personalities over time, but most don't change much.  At least not much after maturity.

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What your children are being taught and by whom doesn't matter. They can still be taught things that aren't real or true.
It was a personal anecdote, not a proof.  I was taught many things in school that turned out to be false.  So were you.
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Being typed has little to do with understanding yourself. Understanding yourself requires self awareness and the ability to look at yourself in as objective of a manner as possible. Being assigned arbitrary categories may make you feel like you're fulfilling the first section of that but given you actually are not that arbitrary category but are a mutable collection of feelings and thoughts, in which the identification of and understanding how they arise is truer understanding, means Myers-Briggs is BS.


Myers-Briggs is only "BS" if you don't believe in statistical models.  Myers-Briggs isn't proof of anything; it's based upon statistical correlation, which is not (by itself) evidence.  But if my teenagers take it as a baseline, at least they have somewhere to start.  If their self-awareness grows beyond the MB, great; but even the MB offers more self-awareness than most teenagers (and most adults) ever develop independently.

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I'm a bit gung-ho on this matter because it's the equivalent of people saying the sun moves around the earth.
Your analogy leaves much to be desired.

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The Myers-Briggs is not accurate, it should be abandoned. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/give-and-take/201309/goodbye-mbti-the-fad-won-t-die

I think you expect too much of it, and when it doesn't live up to your expectations, you reject it's value.  This is very  black & white thinking.  Ironic coming from a person who asserts that the MB is BS because it uses A-B polling to classify a person, and who complains that doesn't accurately reflect the personality spectrum.  Who cares?  Nobody said it would cure cancer.

matchewed

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Re: The Principle of Constant Optimization: What's Your Myers-Briggs?
« Reply #303 on: December 16, 2015, 02:23:11 PM »
Yeah I was pretty sure you didn't read the articles. Thanks for clarifying.

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Being typed has little to do with understanding yourself. Understanding yourself requires self awareness and the ability to look at yourself in as objective of a manner as possible. Being assigned arbitrary categories may make you feel like you're fulfilling the first section of that but given you actually are not that arbitrary category but are a mutable collection of feelings and thoughts, in which the identificatiom of and understanding how they arise is truer understanding, means Myers-Briggs is BS.

Myers-Briggs is only "BS" if you don't believe in statistical models.  Myers-Briggs isn't proof of anything; it's based upon statistical correlation, which is not (by itself) evidence.  But if my teenagers take it as a baseline, at least they have somewhere to start.  If their self-awareness grows beyond the MB, great; but even the MB offers more self-awareness than most teenagers (and most adults) ever develop independently.

What does that even mean? Statistical model. What statistical model exactly? What correlation?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 02:38:35 PM by matchewed »

Goldielocks

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Re: The Principle of Constant Optimization: What's Your Myers-Briggs?
« Reply #304 on: December 17, 2015, 12:17:34 AM »
Yeah I was pretty sure you didn't read the articles. Thanks for clarifying.

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Being typed has little to do with understanding yourself. Understanding yourself requires self awareness and the ability to look at yourself in as objective of a manner as possible. Being assigned arbitrary categories may make you feel like you're fulfilling the first section of that but given you actually are not that arbitrary category but are a mutable collection of feelings and thoughts, in which the identificatiom of and understanding how they arise is truer understanding, means Myers-Briggs is BS.


Really?   MBTI doesn't exist without statistics...   Yes, it starts with a theory of what A-B matches to set up, and from there it is all surveys and data collection to generate statistics.   

The official version cautions against using MBTI for employment filtering (by the student), yet many books and webpages do exactly that.  Why?  They ask thousands of people to complete the official MBTI and their work, and how satisfied they are, and then produce a book or statistical study.   The authors set up those "about INTJ" phrases in different combinations, then ask (statistically) INTJ's for how close they are, that sort of thing.
Myers-Briggs is only "BS" if you don't believe in statistical models.  Myers-Briggs isn't proof of anything; it's based upon statistical correlation, which is not (by itself) evidence.  But if my teenagers take it as a baseline, at least they have somewhere to start.  If their self-awareness grows beyond the MB, great; but even the MB offers more self-awareness than most teenagers (and most adults) ever develop independently.

What does that even mean? Statistical model. What statistical model exactly? What correlation?

matchewed

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Re: The Principle of Constant Optimization: What's Your Myers-Briggs?
« Reply #305 on: December 18, 2015, 07:53:21 AM »
I'm not sure what's your response and what's not so I'll just give a blanket response.

Statistics is the study of data. It actually doesn't care if the data is bad or good. I could give a test asking people their preferences on food and come up with a categorization that people are either meat or dairy/vegetable or bakery items/fish or fruit. That doesn't mean people actually are those things.

MBTI may not exist without it, but it doesn't prove its validity.

RetiredAt63

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Re: The Principle of Constant Optimization: What's Your Myers-Briggs?
« Reply #306 on: December 27, 2015, 08:41:28 AM »
Another blanket response.

Introverts can be social, they can be very social.  They are just not social in the same way extroverts are. Shy people may need to be coaxed out of their shell, but shy does not automatically mean introvert, and introvert does not automatically mean shy.

Added - introverts tend to be more social in small groups and one-to-one interactions, which may be a partial explanation for why we like being on this forum.  Huge noise New Year's Eve parties are only fun in small doses (like once a year), posting on a calm, thoughtful forum is fun all the time.

Birth signs do have some value as information, since they are based on time of birth.  So we can look at them as seasonal indicators - a summer baby has had a different environment than a winter baby - what seasons was the mother experiencing (cold/heat stress, amount of exercise, etc.), what was the weather like when baby was born, what weather was baby exposed to at different ages, etc.  My DD and I were both summer babies, for example, and we were both old enough for long outings in the baby carriage in winter (well bundled up, of course).  If she had been born in January I am not sure either of us would have been up to long walks in February  ;-)

Carlin

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Re: The Principle of Constant Optimization: What's Your Myers-Briggs?
« Reply #307 on: February 07, 2017, 09:29:55 AM »
I test very strongly INTP. I know it's pretty rare, especially for a girl, so it's awesome to see so many people in that personality "family."  I might have found my people!

Ben Hogan

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Re: The Principle of Constant Optimization: What's Your Myers-Briggs?
« Reply #308 on: February 14, 2017, 07:17:34 AM »
ISTJ, or maybe I failed the test. oh well, life goes on. :)

Kl285528

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Re: The Principle of Constant Optimization: What's Your Myers-Briggs?
« Reply #309 on: February 14, 2017, 07:42:15 AM »
Usually test INTJ, but always borderline E. However, last time I took it, tested out as an INTP. For sure, at least for me, the descriptions of type ring very true, especially the strong NT way of thinking. I've always liked my type - they've always made more sense to me!