The Money Mustache Community
Around the Internet => Continue the Blog Conversation => Topic started by: FIRE_HELP! on July 08, 2014, 04:07:36 PM
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Seemed kind of random and not very well thought out - almost like it was just an excuse to write about expenses he incurred (which could probably be written off as a business expense)
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I found it timely and inspiring- my wife and I are working on a house doing a fair bit of work and have a short timeline to complete it. House repair is the only noticeable spending I do that is beyond necessities - (my clothing comes from Goodwill, etc.) and while we could hire some of the work out I feel better about not buying someone else's time and knowing things are being done right, and learning in the process. Also 'collecting' a set of high quality tools that I should have for life.
Maybe MMM's last post didn't hit home for you, but it felt like it was written for the moment I'm in...
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Which post? Maybe include a link, or the title of it as the title of this thread. A month from now someone reading this will have no idea which post you mean. :)
Also [MOD NOTE] I'm moving this to the correct section of the forums. Thanks!
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While this will probably be a 'dead thread' in a month I respect the suggestion to follow good forum decorum:
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/07/07/necessity-is-the-mother-of-badassity/ (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/07/07/necessity-is-the-mother-of-badassity/)
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Cheap solution would have been to roof over the boards... I like the fact that he did the right thing and put down decent plywood. Typical quick-sand that I get myself into sometimes when working on older homes.
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I don't see at all where you get the idea it wasn't well thought out. I liked it so much it was the first post I've shared with my husband, in fact, and it went very well indeed.
The whole point is to develop skills/save money to use when you need them. The post was a perfect demonstration of how that pays off under pressure.
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It's a philosophical take on when things go south. Instead of bitching you just carry on and adapt. Then he proceeds to tell a personal story reflecting that. Not sure where the randomness is that you see.
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Seemed kind of random and not very well thought out
The primary purpose of this website is a blog, which includes random thoughts and telling people about your life. That being said, I also agree with some other posters that it was well thought out. He told a timely and relevant story from his own life with a powerful underlying theme that many of us are a lot stronger than we think we are and some only learn that through terrible adversity. By realizing the truth in this we can make large changes today instead of waiting for a catastrophic event in our life.
I liked it so much it was one of the few that i emailed around to my friends.
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I liked his blog post. But it strongly reminded me that when stuff comes up like his roof problems, that I didn't foresee and plan for, it's a lot more stressful now when I have to space all my projects in between 40 hour weeks earning wages, than it will be when I'm retired and it won't matter that much if a job takes me an extra day or two.
At least I know my roof boards are in good shape because with my house's vaulted ceilings, I can simply look up and see them in many areas. They're roughly 2" tongue and groove cedar boards.
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It is interesting how different posts appeal to different people. It didn't light my fire, but there are multiple people in this thread saying they liked it a lot and shared it with people.
Whereas there are other posts that blow me away, but probably are just okay to others.
Take what you enjoy, learn what you can from the rest, and don't stress about it. :)
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The only thing that surprised me with this post is that he didn't use Metal on her roof. If he had the plywood would not have been necessary. Some sort of vapor barrier and a few 2x and it would have been complete. Would have possibly been a cheaper roof but last a lot longer.
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The only thing that surprised me with this post is that he didn't use Metal on her roof. If he had the plywood would not have been necessary. Some sort of vapor barrier and a few 2x and it would have been complete. Would have possibly been a cheaper roof but last a lot longer.
He did answer that in the comments. Lack of time, IIRC. But you can go read his reply.
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So what your saying Is that I should have read all the comments before commenting. Lesson learned face punch complete. Lol
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So what your saying Is that I should have read all the comments before commenting. Lesson learned face punch complete. Lol
lol, I didn't mean it like that. I usually don't read the comments on the main blog articles, this was a rare exception. I just wa letting you know there was an answer to your question.
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Its all good I usually do read some but not all.
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Seemed kind of random and not very well thought out - almost like it was just an excuse to write about expenses he incurred (which could probably be written off as a business expense)
I can understand not enjoying the subject matter or the flow of the story or perhaps even finding errors of spelling/grammar. But is it necessary to accuse him of cheating on his taxes as well?
In an analogy: are you sitting in his livingroom and enjoying his hospitality before watching the game, perhaps with a frosty beverage in your hand, and complaining that the decor seems random and not very well thought out-- before moving on to suggest that he probably didn't pay sales tax on it either?
Because you can probably read another thousand or so other personal finance blogs discussing the virtues of strength through adversity, although I don't think any of their authors felt compelled to re-roof their mother's homes.
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Seemed kind of random and not very well thought out
Just an observation, but I think its interesting to see critiques saying that posts are "random" and "not well thought" out, while also seeing other critiques of MMM that sound something like "he's overly planning his content" or "Ah-ha!! he has strategies for increasing site traffic to make money/make his blog more valuable". (as if that's a crime)
I think its funny- he's either randomly putting out not very well thought posts, or he's actually very much planning each of his blog posts as if he's (gasp!) running a business.
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This was the right post at the right time for me. I'm working on a humongous writing project--am majorly on deadline--and I found his post inspiring. (OK, it's a novel, not a roof, but it's a big, difficult job just the same. Badassity helps a lot.)
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Seemed kind of random and not very well thought out
Just an observation, but I think its interesting to see critiques saying that posts are "random" and "not well thought" out, while also seeing other critiques of MMM that sound something like "he's overly planning his content" or "Ah-ha!! he has strategies for increasing site traffic to make money/make his blog more valuable". (as if that's a crime)
I think its funny- he's either randomly putting out not very well thought posts, or he's actually very much planning each of his blog posts as if he's (gasp!) running a business.
I read a post on the Early Retirement forums and somebody suggested MMM has a editor (basically suggesting the site was fake) or something because the writing was just too "polished". lol I guess a regular person can't edit a draft or use spellcheck or have their wife proofread...
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It's a pathetic reflection on our current culture (or lack of it) that someone is critical of MMM because he's literate. Good Lord.
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That just shows the value of a Canadian education. Engineering students (like any other university students) are expected to be able to communicate.
It's a pathetic reflection on our current culture (or lack of it) that someone is critical of MMM because he's literate. Good Lord.
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I think it's possible we're all doing a little troll-feeding here. [Happy to retract that if OP wants to wade back in.]
But while I'm here, I'd like to pick up on RetiredAt63's angle and say that I think MMM is a damn good writer. Sure, his story is appealing and he's producing information that people want, but the words are actually put together very well, even for a Canadian.
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Seemed kind of random and not very well thought out - almost like it was just an excuse to write about expenses he incurred (which could probably be written off as a business expense)
So you weren't satisfied? Bummer for you.
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I didn't even read the latest 'Electric Bikes' post, so you'll have to excuse me if this is out of line. I'm sticking it under an old thread so as not to make a big deal out of it...
But just the subject line flies in the face of everything I used to like about what MMM used to write about (2011-2012), even if I thought he was being a little too extreme or using 'fuzzy math' to get his otherwise well-intentioned point across. If he is hoping people will start with an electric bike (for what, twice the price of a 'real bike') and then, well, voluntarily take all of the expensive stuff off and start peddling, then he is obviously smoking too much of the legalized weeds over there...
Please convince me I am wrong, but is there any reason to read this post? I have a perfectly good bike and would never recommend an electric bike to anyone if they are capable of being on a bike. Otherwise, I would recommend a scooter - an actual vehicle that can be used to haul nominal loads, accelerate reasonably, and better for the environment than the alternative. What has become of our beloved MMM? Is he trying to become 'mainstream' or sell stuff?
Sorry in advance for 'complainy-panting', I'll admit that I do like a bit of debate and genuinely want to know what people think of this latest post. Maybe I'll be convinced I missed something valuable, but right now I just feel 'turned off' by where the blog is going.
Forum still rocks!
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The value is, as the post points out, that you can go farther or faster with an electric bike than with a regular bike. It makes sense for people whose commutes are up to 30 miles each way (such as a few of my coworkers who ride their electric bikes every day), where pedalling the whole way really isn't practical but a car is still overkill. Hell, I'm even thinking of buying one and moving downtown. Only hangup is performance in extreme low temps.
The solution to the transit problem is not so black-and-white as to always be a pedal bike. Is pulling out the bike the best way to go down the block for some groceries? I'd contend that walking is more convenient for trips under .25 miles. And if there's a non-pedalling solution for that end of the spectrum, it's likely that there's a solution to fill the gap between pedal bike and car.
I think your hangup might be that MMM didn't explicitly say "don't buy one unless you really really really conclude it's worth it" but if we can't figure that out on our own by now then what are we still doing here?
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I haven't read the article yet either, it's in my Pocket list, but I have an electric bike, and use it to commute.
If I didn't have an electric bike, I wouldn't ride a bike.
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If I didn't have an electric bike, I wouldn't ride a bike.
I don't think we can be friends any more.
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An electric bike is just a slightly less fancy bedpan and catheter (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/09/18/is-it-convenient-would-i-enjoy-it-wrong-question/).
Driving a luxury SUV with heated leather seats to drop your kids off at school might be the right choice for some people. Say, people who have five kids and live in the Alaska wilderness. Everyone else can suck it up and drive their little compact car.
Riding an electric bike might be the right choice for some people. Say, old and frail people who are also overweight and unmotivated to improve their fitnesss level. Everyone else can suck it up and pedal a real bike.
In general I support the idea of replacing car trips with electric bike trips. But this article seems rather incongruous with the very last one about Badassity in Houston, which touted the idea of embracing apparent hardship as an opportunity to flex those Stoicism muscles. Every time I consider getting an electric bike, I remind myself that I am healthy and strong, I got that way by pedaling my own damn bicycle, and I'm going to stay that way by not giving in to the siren song of assisted-propulsion. Today it's an electric bike, tomorrow it's a motorized barcalounger with a built in bedpan. No thanks.
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If I didn't have an electric bike, I wouldn't ride a bike.
I don't think we can be friends any more.
Heh. I've said elsewhere that I have an electric bike, but yes, I've never put it so bluntly: I don't like riding bicycles.
It does amuse me that the one core distilled part of Mustachianism, to Pete, is: Ride a bike.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/05/07/what-do-you-mean-you-dont-have-a-bike/
Pass.
;)
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Everyone else can suck it up and pedal a real bike.
Sure, or just not ride at all. The electric bike makes it tolerable. Otherwise I'd buy a second vehicle.
I don't do anything I don't want to do. Ever.
"Suck it up" is not an option for me, I think I'd rather just be 100% happy 100% of the time.
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"Suck it up" is not an option for me, I think I'd rather just be 100% happy 100% of the time.
I recommend you get yourself an SUV. They're really great.
I also recommend you take up watching reality TV. I hear it's super awesome, everyone in America is in love with it.
I also recommend you only eat fast food. It is tasty and delicious, guaranteed to make you happy with every bite.
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"Suck it up" is not an option for me, I think I'd rather just be 100% happy 100% of the time.
I recommend you get yourself an SUV. They're really great.
I also recommend you take up watching reality TV. I hear it's super awesome, everyone in America is in love with it.
I also recommend you only eat fast food. It is tasty and delicious, guaranteed to make you happy with every bite.
(http://www.nrcc.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/anchorman-escalate.jpg)
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Yes, hilarious that I can judge somebody so harshly for RIDING AN ELECTRIC BIKE.
-Judgy McJudgerson
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"Suck it up" is not an option for me, I think I'd rather just be 100% happy 100% of the time.
I recommend you get yourself an SUV. They're really great.
I also recommend you take up watching reality TV. I hear it's super awesome, everyone in America is in love with it.
I also recommend you only eat fast food. It is tasty and delicious, guaranteed to make you happy with every bite.
I don't enjoy any of those things. If I did, I'd have no guilt around doing them whatsoever.
Yes, hilarious that I can judge somebody so harshly for RIDING AN ELECTRIC BIKE.
-Judgy McJudgerson
/shrug
You can feel free to judge whatever you want, I don't care one way or the other.
I'm going to live according to my ethos, which doesn't involve doing things I don't want to do. Regardless of if you, or anyone else thinks I should.
Thinking for yourself doesn't mean "ignore what mainstream culture tells you, but blindly follow what the MMM community tells you."
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You can feel free to judge whatever you want, I don't care one way or the other.
I know you don't, and I was trying to highlight that my reaction was a bit overblown. Like how angry can you really be with someone for choosing to ride a bike, even if it is electric? You're the classic ebike customer MMM was trying to reach, people who maybe like the idea of biking but can't be bothered to do anything uncomfortable or exert too much effort.
For me, however, the ebike would just be a gateway drug. So I'm staying away.
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Because he doesn't meet your standards of rightness and rides an electric bike, you're telling him he should ride a big-ass SUV? What?
Whatever happened to the concept "the perfect is the enemy of the good"? Is that anti-Mustachian?
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Wow...
Self admitted electric bike user here- my wife and I each have an electric human hybrid bike, and really do think they were worth getting. We have one car, and two wildly different work schedules. We also rarely use the car anymore, even when it is cold, raining, snowing, etc. We were using them without electric assist for commuting, but after adding motors they are used in any weather, and any schedule. Even on normal days speeding up the hills gives us 10-20 minutes more per day to spend together, which is amazing when working late... and worth the extra cost.
We also have regular bikes for exercise/short local trips without much cargo.
I wouldn't call them the bedpan and catheter level. You still use your body much more than in a car- the key word is setting up the bikes as electric assist bikes, not mopeds. Plus, the environmental impact,even when considering battery manufacture, is MUCH less than an automobile. My wife only learned to ride a bike as an adult, yet with electric assist she almost never drives to work.
Financially, since we biked to work 50% of the time already, they will take a long time to pay off. Our gas expenses did halve the very first month we got the electrics running.. though it was already a tiny typical expense. Payoff is about two years, but that includes new bikes that will last MUCH MUCH longer than that. Yes we bought used parts when available.
Lastly, they are freaking fun, even MMM used to have motorcycles. These are cheaper, with almost nonexistent maintenance. Different strokes for different folks. Slow open air transportation, that doesn't let you recline, and requires you to work at least some, and costs less than a decent laptop doesn't seem like a bedpan.
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Thanks for the lively input, always good to have my mind opened a bit more. I still can't shake the feeling that an electric bike is the first step down the slippery slope toward an electric golf cart... and ultimately The Rascal, I am amazed that folks on this forum have electric bikes. More power to them ;) Guess they do have their place and I should read what MMM and the always interesting comments have to say.
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You can feel free to judge whatever you want, I don't care one way or the other.
I know you don't, and I was trying to highlight that my reaction was a bit overblown. Like how angry can you really be with someone for choosing to ride a bike, even if it is electric? You're the classic ebike customer MMM was trying to reach, people who maybe like the idea of biking but can't be bothered to do anything uncomfortable or exert too much effort.
For me, however, the ebike would just be a gateway drug. So I'm staying away.
Gotcha, thanks for clarifying!
I laughed at your final line.
MMM wants the eBike to be a gateway drug to get non-bikers to ride - but your point that it might be a gateway drug the other way to make current bikers more lazy is well taken.
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Sure, or just not ride at all. The electric bike makes it tolerable.
Same here. I used an electric bike to get to work, and I would not have done it on a regular bike. I would have driven instead. Carrying a change of business attire, arriving at work sweaty and having to cool off, shower and change would have made the whole affair take far too long. I saved the hardcore pedaling for the trip home when it didn't matter that I arrived sweaty.
I think arguments over e-bikes vs. pedal bikes is up there with arguing over buying vegetables vs. growing your own. OMG WTF YOU BUY YOUR TOMATOES AT THE STORE? MIGHT AS WELL HOOK YOU UP TO THE BED PAN AND CATHETER!
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I am pretty much the cycling fanatic, and I've been thinking about an e-bike. I rode this morning with some senior citizens on a group ride, and several of them had recumbents with a front windshield. I'd love to take one of those, add about 300w of assist, and pedal 40mph to work. :-)
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As someone who has logged thousands of miles on the highways (long distance triathlons), I still don't bike to work as often as I should/could. Some days I get a late start, others I have meetings in other parts of the city that I don't feel safe riding to due to the fact that my city is not bike friendly and the only reasonable way to get there is via high traffic and high speed roads with no shoulder. The fact that I'll be a sweaty mess in most of those scenarios also plays a part. The humidity here is gross for most of the year. There are no showers at my office and I don't want to haul around a multiple costume changes for the day.
This is why I'm considering an ebike. Most of those scenarios would be eliminated by being able to zip around at 30+ mph with little to no effort. The battery should last for 30k miles or so, so this would be a long-term payoff for me, but a payoff all the same over driving.
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You can feel free to judge whatever you want, I don't care one way or the other.
I know you don't, and I was trying to highlight that my reaction was a bit overblown. Like how angry can you really be with someone for choosing to ride a bike, even if it is electric? You're the classic ebike customer MMM was trying to reach, people who maybe like the idea of biking but can't be bothered to do anything uncomfortable or exert too much effort.
For me, however, the ebike would just be a gateway drug. So I'm staying away.
Gotcha, thanks for clarifying!
I laughed at your final line.
MMM wants the eBike to be a gateway drug to get non-bikers to ride - but your point that it might be a gateway drug the other way to make current bikers more lazy is well taken.
Yeah, I have to say I'm the same way. That's why I sold the car - now I have no excuse not to bike everywhere (I was just really lazy before). If I got an electric bike I would definitely wimp out and stop pedaling only under my own power.
My concern with the electric bikes is that people will never be convinced to go "all the way" to the pedal-only bikes. Yes it's work - just like anything else MMM recommends. MMM is the "all the way" kind of guy, and the electric bikes seem very half-hearted. If you can't currently ride 30 miles, train yourself to be Badass™ enough so you can! That would be the typical Mustachian cry.
And ARS - I'm afraid you just lost your cred of being a true follower of Mustachianism in my eyes. :P
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My concern with the electric bikes is that people will never be convinced to go "all the way" to the pedal-only bikes.
Electric bikes are like diet soda. If you're a full-on car/soda addict, I guess they're a step in the right direction. If you've already kicked your clownish car/soda habit, though, why would you ever consider starting it back up again by drinking diet or riding an electric bike? That's just asking for trouble.
I can see the benefit for people who really suck. But it's only a stepping stone to being truly awesome, not an end goal by itself.
Biking is partly about saving money (real biking way better than ebiking), partly about getting fit (real biking way better than ebiking) and partly about being happy outdoors (maybe about the same). I just don't see any way that ebiking is actually better than real biking, unless you are lame.
Before someone chimes in with "what about super long trips" I should point out that if you have a 40 mile clown commute, an ebike is not your solution. Moving your damn residence is your solution. If you are addicted to sweets, diet soda isn't going to solve your underlying problem.
The entire philosophy of Badassity has been fatally undermined by that ebike post. Rather than recommending that people suck less, he has recommended a halfway cop out solution that involves spending a crazy amount of money on a consumerist toy. I look forward to the next article about how to reduce your TV watching habit by subscribing to HBO.
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My concern with the electric bikes is that people will never be convinced to go "all the way" to the pedal-only bikes.
Electric bikes are like diet soda. If you're a full-on car/soda addict, I guess they're a step in the right direction. If you've already kicked your clownish car/soda habit, though, why would you ever consider starting it back up again by drinking diet or riding an electric bike? That's just asking for trouble.
I can see the benefit for people who really suck. But it's only a stepping stone to being truly awesome, not an end goal by itself.
Biking is partly about saving money (real biking way better than ebiking), partly about getting fit (real biking way better than ebiking) and partly about being happy outdoors (maybe about the same). I just don't see any way that ebiking is actually better than real biking, unless you are lame.
Before someone chimes in with "what about super long trips" I should point out that if you have a 40 mile clown commute, an ebike is not your solution. Moving your damn residence is your solution. If you are addicted to sweets, diet soda isn't going to solve your underlying problem.
The entire philosophy of Badassity has been fatally undermined by that ebike post. Rather than recommending that people suck less, he has recommended a halfway cop out solution that involves spending a crazy amount of money on a consumerist toy. I look forward to the next article about how to reduce your TV watching habit by subscribing to HBO.
Very well said. I'd be curious to know his reaction if you emailed a statement as such to him. Fully agreed that if you have to take regular 40-mile+ trips, you need to move.
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I'd be curious to know his reaction if you emailed a statement as such to him. Fully agreed that if you have to take regular 40-mile+ trips, you need to move.
I suspect he'd very reasonably respond that he was targeting the car clowns and not the converted choir of the forum mustachians. But his post sure doesn't make it sound that way.
I'm also 100% confident that a complaint like that would never make it past the comments section moderation. It would be labelled as "detracting from the message" and relegated to oblivion. Funny, when the message is being destroyed by the very post in question.
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Can anyone here reconcile the post promoting electric bicycles (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/09/30/electric-bikes-gateway-drug-to-bike-commuting/) with the post about muscle over motor (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/12/05/muscle-over-motor/)?
I still can't wrap my head around why the blog would shill for electric bikes, given the long history of posts encouraging people embrace a little hardship, get fit, flex their stoicism muscles, reject consumerism, and save the planet. It's like a bad April Fool's Day post, except I think he was actually serious.
All I can figure is that his desire to play with new toys overcame his desire to keep the blog message internally consistent. Once upon a time he turned down $4k/month so that he could continue to swear on the blog (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/06/21/i-just-gave-up-4000-per-month-to-keep-my-freedom-of-speech/) but now he's suddenly subverting the entire blog message for a free ebike?
I guess I can rationalize shilling ebikes to a certain audience, a certain way, with the caveat that they're a halfway measure. A diet soda, an electric lawnmower, a basic cable package. Not badass at all.
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And ARS - I'm afraid you just lost your cred of being a true follower of Mustachianism in my eyes. :P
Good! I'd rather not be identified as that. :)
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Sol, you make good points. I cannot argue with them.
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I cannot argue with them.
Well I thought so, and I am simply outraged that a blogger would post something to his own blog that I disagree with. I demand a full refund.
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Nobody says you have to stay if it upsets you so much you have to post about it every.single.day.
You've been around here for a while, and you KNOW there's not a single person following so-called "Mustachianism" 110%.
Why should he?
It seems to me you'd be better off leaving and joining the same ilk as the Internet Retirement Police group of people.
I have serious back and leg issues for 35 years, try walking and biking every day, but it's getting harder and harder. I don't want to give it up, but I may have to. My only resort might be to going to an electric assist bike such as this. I appreciate HIM spending the $1,000+ to test the technology and let me know how it works...
Who are YOU to say he's right or wrong to do this on HIS own website and blog? He's helping people, and I say more power to him.
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Nobody says you have to stay if it upsets you so much you have to post about it every.single.day.
You've been around here for a while, and you KNOW there's not a single person following so-called "Mustachianism" 110%.
Why should he?
It seems to me you'd be better off leaving and joining the same ilk as the Internet Retirement Police group of people.
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Who are YOU to say he's right or wrong to do this on HIS own website and blog? He's helping people, and I say more power to him.
Yes, the author of a blog should not sell e-bikes unless he is actually convinced they are better than bikes. He stated that he is not their target demographic, so why not have a guest post from someone who is, from their perspective. I dunno, Politicians have failed much more spectacularly on much smaller nuances, and Mustachians know when someone is selling overpriced, un-needed 'extras'. I'd hoped someone who is aspiring to change the world and doing it in a pretty impressive way hasn't, well, lost his way.
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I think the heart of what brushes so many people the wrong way here, what even took me by surprise is that every post of MMM's is about self improvement in some way, badassity, etc. Another poster stated it better. What some fail to see here is that "physical" improvement isn't always the better option, whole life improvement is. It takes mental brain power to figure out how to put one of these things together, MMM is inviting all of us to take a look-we don't even need to buy a kit here, we can source individual parts from the world over and build the most outlandishly cool things on the road.
MMM didn't buy some thing off the shelf and go toddling off about it. He got the kit and put it together himself-and heck he even shared a HUMONGOUS resource in the forum of endless sphere! Have you guys visited the place? It is an absolute madhouse filled with badass contraptions. The solar powered tricycle, the "crazybike2" which can probably carry more groceries than a caravan of HumVees, the effing guy who built an electric bike and rides in his sandals at 150 mph (have not seen this yet, but read of it). These guys are building their machines, and at heart what is MMM? He is a fucking builder. At heart, he is maniacally impatient about getting there faster, better, and more fun. Retirement is an example here, e-bikes are another!
This is probably the most exciting thing I've read from MMM in a while. It is a shame that it polarizes people the way it does. People can pigeonhole MMM all the while sitting on their duff, I think I'm going to find out which battery chemistry works best for my long distance rides. It's funny that some of the same people taking part of the silent revolution known as early retirement can snub the other silent revolution taking place in the form of ebikes. Take a look, it's happening.
The device that encourages:
Moving closer to work
Ditching the car
Going outside
Training your brain in mechanics
Create something totally badass and unique
Lower air pollution
WILL replace cars. Not bicycles. Not trains or buses. Get out and build one ya whinypantses! Have some fucking optimism cake!
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I didn't even read the latest 'Electric Bikes' post, so you'll have to excuse me if this is out of line. I'm sticking it under an old thread so as not to make a big deal out of it...
Let me get this straight.
You didn't read the article, presumably because your life is humongously chaotically uncontrollably busy and you elected not to make the time. Yet somehow you managed to find the precious seconds (out of whatever priority in your life places commenting over reading) to log into this forum, find an old post, and bury your commentary in it. Because, you know, presumably that's more time-efficient than scanning MMM's post-- let alone parsing the text to develop an opinion based on your actual constructive thoughts.
Bloggers spend a few hours to come up with a posting idea, to do the research (which in this case is extensive), to organize their thoughts, to craft the prose of the post, and (in this case) to even gather together the photos. Call it at least six man-hours of labor, and merely the words alone would be 50 cents/hour of freelancing to an editor. Throw in another $100 or so for the research and his inherent credibility.
Yet you couldn't take five minutes to read it? And then, to add insult to indignity, you have a complainypants commentary accompanied by disclaimers like "you'll have to excuse me" and "not make a big deal out of it"?!?
This is a pet peeve from a guy who writes a lot of words on forums, let alone on blogs, and who somehow makes the time to read the text about which he's writing.
Sorry, but there's no excuse for this thoughtless-- even rude-- behavior. To those of us who actually take the time to write, let alone read, your lack of consideration is indeed a big freakin' deal.
But just the subject line flies in the face of everything I used to like about what MMM used to write about (2011-2012), even if I thought he was being a little too extreme or using 'fuzzy math' to get his otherwise well-intentioned point across. If he is hoping people will start with an electric bike (for what, twice the price of a 'real bike') and then, well, voluntarily take all of the expensive stuff off and start peddling, then he is obviously smoking too much of the legalized weeds over there...
Please convince me I am wrong, but is there any reason to read this post? I have a perfectly good bike and would never recommend an electric bike to anyone if they are capable of being on a bike. Otherwise, I would recommend a scooter - an actual vehicle that can be used to haul nominal loads, accelerate reasonably, and better for the environment than the alternative. What has become of our beloved MMM? Is he trying to become 'mainstream' or sell stuff?
I'll preface every sentence of the rest of this post with the phrase "Well, if you read the article then you'd learn that..." so just add that repetitive phrase on your own to each of the following sentences. Assuming you bother to read any of this.
For several years, I used to commute 20-24 miles to work (round trip) throughout the year and in all sorts of tropical weather. I put more miles on my bicycle than my car. I stopped riding when I retired because riding for fun became more hazardous (and more time-consuming) than surfing. Hawaii's roads are not exactly car-friendly and the hills rise up to 800 feet in altitude from the shoreline. Just getting from my house to the local shopping center is only 1.1 miles yet several hundred feet of altitude. Am I going to bicycle to return my library books? No-- I just add the errand to my next surfing trip.
Pete admits that not everyone can live in his bicycle-friendly (flat!) neighborhood, and that a power-assist bike can help level out the hills. He also pointed out that the tech has come a long way in recent years and may actually be more affordably practical than most people realize. He's going against his hard-core muscle-powered philosophy, true, but he's also getting people to take the baby steps to start riding. You could think of it as his wickedly subversive campaign to make electric bikes more popular than riding cars or scooters. Perhaps it's not "real" bicycling, but it's better than running an internal combustion engine. For those of us who have photovoltaic systems on our roofs, an electric cycle could replace an internal combustion engine. Whether people are using mechanical bicycles or electrical ones, the environment benefits.
His post had me checking designs, brands, and prices. This could actually make returning library books more fun again because I'd pedal the flats and power-boost the hills.
Maybe I'll be convinced I missed something valuable, but right now I just feel 'turned off' by where the blog is going.
We feel pretty "turned off" by your behavior. If you're going to take the time to post about something, at least take the time to scan it and develop an objective thought about it. Or feel free to find a blog that doesn't evoke your disagreeable reactions... assuming you can be bothered with the search to find it, and the additional effort to read it.
Forum still rocks!
I'm not sure how you gained the information to develop that opinion, but thanks.
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I'm sort of confused about the angst here. I didn't know that MMM is supposed to be a one-sized fits all philosophy. Maybe I need to turn in my MMM card to one of the moderators :)
Personally, MMM's post on e-bikes doesn't surprise me at all. Since when is MMM totally anti-consumer? He's got more than one post talking about smart phones and how awesome they are. He's got a Costco membership. He uses Uber for god sakes. Seems to me that when he talks about items such as these he's always stressing 1) Efficiency 2) Approaches to cut costs and 3) Only pursuing something if you are debt free and meeting your savings goals.
Sol- I seem to remember you posting at one point about potentially investing in solar panels? Well, couldn't you just go buy a smaller house, or just use less electricity if you're concerned about being energy efficient? If I'm currently driving, how wouldn't an E-Bike not be a potential investment as well?
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I didn't even read the latest 'Electric Bikes' post, so you'll have to excuse me if this is out of line. I'm sticking it under an old thread so as not to make a big deal out of it...
But just the subject line flies in the face of everything I used to like about what MMM used to write about (2011-2012), even if I thought he was being a little too extreme or using 'fuzzy math' to get his otherwise well-intentioned point across. If he is hoping people will start with an electric bike (for what, twice the price of a 'real bike') and then, well, voluntarily take all of the expensive stuff off and start peddling, then he is obviously smoking too much of the legalized weeds over there...
Please convince me I am wrong, but is there any reason to read this post? I have a perfectly good bike and would never recommend an electric bike to anyone if they are capable of being on a bike. Otherwise, I would recommend a scooter - an actual vehicle that can be used to haul nominal loads, accelerate reasonably, and better for the environment than the alternative. What has become of our beloved MMM? Is he trying to become 'mainstream' or sell stuff?
Sorry in advance for 'complainy-panting', I'll admit that I do like a bit of debate and genuinely want to know what people think of this latest post. Maybe I'll be convinced I missed something valuable, but right now I just feel 'turned off' by where the blog is going.
Forum still rocks!
Escape2020 - I may not convince you since you have such a hardline on this, but I do think you are wrong. For others out there who are less fixed on this I can offer you a bit of insight into electric bikes.
A little background, and response to Escape, I am capable of riding a bike AND have an electric bike. In fact I have ridden well over 100,000 miles by bike in my lifetime. Across many states, mountain bike, road bike, recumbent (100 miles in 4 hours 58 minutes and 20 seconds), and even a folder (bus-bike rides too). Everything you can think of, I have done it - and continue to do so.
So, I recently purchased and electric bike. It happens to be a cargo bike by Xtracycle with a Bionx kit on it. I absolutely love riding this bike! I have ridden it to work and back 13 of the last 15 days, where I might have ridden my touring bike twice during that time due to schedules and heat/humidity. That would have cost $65 in my auto and pumped out a lot of pollution. It cost me about $0.15 on the bike.
I've put over 500 miles on it in the past 3 weeks, carrying 80 pounds of salt home from the pool store, dropping off over a 100 pounds of donations, picking up the kids from school, dropping them at friends houses, etc. etc. etc. In fact my DW who usually picks the kids up in a 5,000 pound vehicle picked TWO kids up from school a few days ago using the electric bike!
Right now my eldest child is on it and across town doing lawn work. I rode it with trailer attached this morning - with my 70 pound dog in it.
And for those that think you cannot get exercise on one you will be surprised. Take the extreme of just using the motor (no peddling). That is more exercise than sitting on your butt in a car. I actually peddle the majority of the ride (it has pedal "assist") and get plenty of exercise. I have ridden 500 miles on it where I might have ridden the touring bike 50. That is some pretty good exercise!
So, I could go on, but take my word for it, an electric assist bike is awesome.
BTW - you recommend a scooter 2020. Have you ridden an electric bike or a scooter to provide such a recommendation? For those of you that take this recommendation remember that there are many places those are not allowed, including most urban trails and sidewalks - and you really cannot peddle them so you skip the exercise option.
I believe that this is a viable option for commuting and doing local errands. I start my auto and drive it about once a week now, where before I'd do that 5-7 days a week. I think they will catch on with many people who are healthy and would normally want to ride a bike, but for a lot of reasons end up driving. You cannot go anywhere on this bike and not get people asking you about it or studying it as they walk by when its parked (it is a long tail bike so it is a bit curious of course). Imagine if people replaced that 2 mile trip to pick up a Redbox or aspirin at the drug store? (I did this the other day and was back in half the time it would have taken in an auto!) We'd have a heck of a lot less pollution and carbon dioxide in the air.
Really though, these are awesome and should not be pushed aside because someone thinks they are "cheating" or don't stack up to a "real" bike. Are you kidding me! 50 miles vs. 500 - go for it!!
Lastly, you worry that MMM is becoming mainstream and selling their "stuff." The people that put together electric bikes are very small companies and bike shops that have very little margin of profit. They aren't what I would consider mainstream like maybe GM, or Apple. Besides, these electric motors do go on bicycles that are waaay better than the "alternative."
SOl - you get one paragraph added. The biking rate in most of our country is about .1%, with a few places at a few whole percentage points. I think we can do better than to say that if you don't bicycle like a real man or woman you might as well drive an SUV.
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Thanks Rollin, I also enjoy being outside (your tag). I have not had a scooter to be honest, I had a used CBR600 for a few years. Talk about low cost, high risk! Less than an ebike and faster than I ever want to go now that I have kids! Boy do I have some funny stories... I'll read through your long post more slowly after I finish cooking dinner, I kinda scanned it, but I really don't understand how electric bikes fit the Mustachian philosophy. I read what you wrote and never got to an 'aha moment'. Sorry, but when I hear someone utter 'electric assist', I kinda tune them out. Like I said, I'll read more closely later, in case I missed something, but I was disappointed by MMM's post, throwing around 'bionic' like this was some sort of ideal all of a sudden...
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I'll read through your long post more slowly after I finish cooking dinner, I kinda scanned it
lulz I see this is becoming a theme
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I'll read through your long post more slowly after I finish cooking dinner, I kinda scanned it
lulz I see this is becoming a theme
Haha. I assume he said this to be funny/ironic. But maybe not..
I can't count how many meetings I've had where folks simply scan or don't go over the materials, but then whether its ego or what not, just feel the need to talk and make their opinion known. They stick out like a sore thumb and just end up looking ridiculous.
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I'll read through your long post more slowly after I finish cooking dinner, I kinda scanned it
lulz I see this is becoming a theme
Haha. I assume he said this to be funny/ironic. But maybe not..
I can't count how many meetings I've had where folks simply scan or don't go over the materials, but then whether its ego or what not, just feel the need to talk and make their opinion known. They stick out like a sore thumb and just end up looking ridiculous.
Yeah, I think I'm done with this thread too...
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Thanks for the lively input, always good to have my mind opened a bit more. ... I am amazed that folks on this forum have electric bikes. More power to them ;) Guess they do have their place and I should read what MMM and the always interesting comments have to say.
Nords, I did read the MMM post and all of the 200+ comments, as I pointed out a little after the initial post which you blew up over. I also did read the forum thread in detail, which I said I would. I just try to be honest when I post a response before having read everything carefully, especially when the preceding post 'thinks I am wrong' and I'm not trying to mount a counter-argument. And I'm certainly not trying to say that my time so precious that I don't value a good discussion, I just didn't have the time at that moment other than to want to get a difference of opinions (like a forum can provide). Didn't mean to offend you (although you don't seem to be looking for an apology), and I didn't notice your post until you just revived the thread.
And I'm totally fine with this thread being locked. I did get some interesting input from the additional Mustachian ebikers which got me to consider an ebike in the future perhaps.
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Thanks for the lively input, always good to have my mind opened a bit more. ... I am amazed that folks on this forum have electric bikes. More power to them ;) Guess they do have their place and I should read what MMM and the always interesting comments have to say.
Nords, I did read the MMM post and all of the 200+ comments, as I pointed out a little after the initial post which you blew up over. I also did read the forum thread in detail, which I said I would. I just try to be honest when I post a response before having read everything carefully, especially when the preceding post 'thinks I am wrong' and I'm not trying to mount a counter-argument. And I'm certainly not trying to say that my time so precious that I don't value a good discussion, I just didn't have the time at that moment other than to want to get a difference of opinions (like a forum can provide). Didn't mean to offend you (although you don't seem to be looking for an apology), and I didn't notice your post until you just revived the thread.
And I'm totally fine with this thread being locked. I did get some interesting input from the additional Mustachian ebikers which got me to consider an ebike in the future perhaps.
No need to go locking every thread! Sheesh.
Anyways, yeah I think evokes are good, and I'd get one if I had to ride my bike further or up a steep hill on the way to work.
I missed the part where MMM was shilling anything... Sounds like his over zealous blog persona spoke too soon and the real MMM though evokes were actually kinda cool despite not being totally on message
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SOl - you get one paragraph added. The biking rate in most of our country is about .1%, with a few places at a few whole percentage points. I think we can do better than to say that if you don't bicycle like a real man or woman you might as well drive an SUV.
I misquoted the biking rate. It is 0.7% of all trips.
Here is an interesting write up on the Copenhagen Wheel.
http://www.citylab.com/commute/2014/07/if-an-electric-bike-is-ever-going-to-hit-it-big-in-the-us-its-this-one/375167/
I am not promoting the product, just the write up. Note: they state that in the US a problem is with the perception that the bicycle is not for transportation, but for recreation and fitness (e.g., racing)- and it is ironic that they put the wheel on a bike that looks like a time trial bike, or at least the article uses that picture when they could have used a more useful bike. Sheeze!
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General comments on the comments:
Not everyone on the forums is young. Not everyone has a perfect body. Even if a person has a great body at 30, injuries and age do take their toll. I have bad knees. I can bicycle on the flat, but have problems on hills.
If I had safe roads I would get an e-bike in a flash - however, around here the minimum speed is 70km/h and the road to town is 80 (which means people do 90). And no good edge. So since I want the body to stay as good as it is (age means you also don't heal as fast, on average, and cars can do lots of damage), cycling is recreational.
So general take-away - don't project your situation onto everyone else. Just because something works for you, it may not work for others. I have a car (oh my heavens, she is not mustachian) but my overall COL is low because of other choices, and my life is amazingly good in most ways. MMM is about optimization, not rigid rules.
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Retired at 63 - good points and great that you are getting out, regardless of the mode or reason. My point was not to say that recreational riding or racing are bad, just that many people think that riding a bicycle is either exclusively for recreation, or for racing. The numbers I quote say that we have a LOT of room for improvement in bicycle (and pedestrian) trips in this country and to exclude e-assist bikes seems rather myopic.