Author Topic: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"  (Read 12858 times)

Basenji

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Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« on: May 22, 2014, 02:39:38 PM »
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/07/26/hypermiling-expert-driving-to-save-25-50-on-gas/

MMM writes the following in that post: "A full tank of gas at 8 pounds per gallon usually weighs over a hundred pounds too. Because of this, and because a full tank of gas lasts several months in my van (raising concerns about spoilage), I usually buy only 1/4 to 1/2 a tank."

There's a thread that includes some good points about oil changes being needed not just because of mileage but also because of oil degrading over time (as well as the oil filter degrading even if the mileage hasn't added up). So, what's the deal with the gas spoilage? A nonscientific Google search suggested 6 months for expiration of gasoline. But obviously this can't be 6 months ok and then BAM! spoiled, so how long before it starts to affect your car?

Joggernot

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2014, 02:46:43 PM »
Most "experts" on the internet say that gasoline starts to degrade 30 days after it hits your tank, assuming it was clean when it went in.  As time goes on, it gets worse until the varnish settles out.  If the gas is in your carb/jets it clogs them up.  If in your tank, it can clog the fuel filter.  My filter is in the tank and costs a lot to replace.

Primm

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2014, 02:59:47 PM »
If it's ethanol it gets worse - ethanol is hydrophilic so it absorbs water from the atmosphere, and if it's left for any period of time the water settles to the bottom of the tank. This then gets picked up and can completely stuff your fuel filter or engine if it gets there.

We bought a beater car for Mr. 17 to practice his car maintenance skills and welding (he's a fitter and turner apprentice). Went to start it after a few months of sitting around, it was fine before, and it wouldn't go. On further investigation it seems someone put ethanol based fuel in it and the whole fuel system contained a layer of disgusting sludge, we had to throw the whole thing out. Yep, the entire car. After he'd played with it a bit more of course.

Basenji

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2014, 06:45:45 AM »
Very interesting! OK, so if we drive very little we should have only enough for what we think will be about two weeks of driving? Super stupid about cars, forgive me, but I thought there was also a problem with having too little gas in the tank. Is that true as well?

Primm

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2014, 08:28:03 AM »
Basically yes, there are a whole lot of reasons for not letting your tank get too low. The proportion of sediment to fuel increases, so the chances of clogging up your filter or worse goes up. Also the fuel pump is probably inside the fuel tank, unless your car is really old. It's designed to run best when it's completely submerged, so if the level of fuel doesn't completely cover the pump it can overheat and fail.

Most "experts" recommend never letting your car get below 1/4 tank. I personally run mine lower than that if I have to, but I have two inline filters and an external fuel pump.

GuitarStv

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2014, 11:58:55 AM »
You could also use a fuel stabilizer if your driving is that infrequent couldn't you?

DarinC

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2014, 11:29:40 AM »
Fuel stabilizer will help, but it shouldn't be a huge issue. Most fuel filters can handle some water, and sediment usually stays in the tank, at least the amount that would be required to clog a filter. If you're really worried just drain the tank.

Mike2

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2014, 10:06:45 PM »
Bad fuel is also a major problem in small engines like lawnmowers.  Gas in the St. Louis area goes bad between 30-60 days and causes carburetor issues on all small engines and it is obviously worse on equipment like chain saws and snow blowers that aren't used often.

Basenji

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2014, 06:22:09 AM »
Bad fuel is also a major problem in small engines like lawnmowers.  Gas in the St. Louis area goes bad between 30-60 days and causes carburetor issues on all small engines and it is obviously worse on equipment like chain saws and snow blowers that aren't used often.
Another reason I'm glad we have an electric lawn mower.

DarinC

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2014, 01:34:36 PM »
Bad fuel is also a major problem in small engines like lawnmowers.  Gas in the St. Louis area goes bad between 30-60 days and causes carburetor issues on all small engines and it is obviously worse on equipment like chain saws and snow blowers that aren't used often.
That's a really good point.

Gas going "bad" is just the result of lighter fractions evaporating. On relatively primitive carb'ed systems with no evaporative emissions, like with lawnmowers, that can cause trouble in as little as a few mosts. Most modern fuel injected cars can have the gas site for a few years and still run fine. Even my old Carb'ed pickup truck was fine when I let it site for ~1 year because the evap emissions system was still functional.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=2142381&postcount=9

Bob W

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2014, 10:39:08 AM »
Gas does go bad.  In fact, if it sets long enough your car may not even start.  Best to use a fuel stabilizer.   I'm happy to see that this is an issue and can only dream of the day when I'm all electric or so low mileage that I have to worry about this. 
Better living through math.

No Name Guy

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2014, 11:43:20 AM »
Minor Correction to MMM from the OP: 
Gasoline is 6 lbs / US gallon, not 8.  I think he's confused as water is 8 1/3 lbs / gallon.

The old JP4 / Jet A jet fuel is 6.5 lbs / gallon, JP5 / JP8 / Jet A-1 are 6.7 to 6.8 lbs / gallon.

randersonnw

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2014, 01:02:19 AM »
Just had to bike my car battery up to OREILLY 's for a free full charge. Something else to consider when driving becomes rare. Apparently these things were not meant for some of us (without clown makeup) to own.

Joggernot

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2014, 06:45:31 AM »
A cheap trickle charger/battery tender from O'Reilly's will do wonders for battery life.  Permanently attach the wires to the battery and run the connection outside under the hood.  Plug into the charger when you pull in.  Just remember to unplug when you leave, but probably no harm done if the plug-in will just slip out.

Since you don't drive often, consider some Sta-Bil to keep the gas from going bad.

paddedhat

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2014, 10:34:51 AM »
About two years back I stopped at my local small engine shop to pick up a new weed eater. They strongly promoted a stabilizer called "star-tron" and said that unless the machine is run dry every time, and I was using enough gas to use up the entire can every two months, not using a stabilizer was just asking for a nice bill, to remove and clean the carb on any small equipment. The bottle was nearly free with a rebate. I used it on a full can of fuel,  and generator, that I left sit for the following 1-1/2 years. The generator started fine, and runs fine, the gas is still usable. It takes very little of the additive to treat the gas, and the bottle should last me for many years. It is specifically engineered to stabilize the ethanol in the fuel.

frugalconfederate

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2014, 08:37:12 PM »
gas will certainly go bad over a few months.  I know this because we have a classic car that we don't drive over the winter.  When we didn't put the stabilizer in, we ended up having to pull the carburetor off the next spring and clean it out and then run fuel system cleaner through the car.  Now we run it low on gas and put in stablilizer before we put it up for the winter.  We also run our lawnmower completely out of gas. The old style gas might be able to sit around for a year and still be good, but not the new style gas. 

rtrnow

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2014, 07:33:44 AM »

Most "experts" recommend never letting your car get below 1/4 tank. I personally run mine lower than that if I have to, but I have two inline filters and an external fuel pump.

I thought this advice was not really relevant to newer cars. Some quick googling seems to back that up as well. Since most pumps are mounted in the bottom of the tank, you are sucking gas from the bottom all the time and will pick debris if it's there regardless of tank level.

RelaxedGal

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2014, 11:32:09 AM »

Most "experts" recommend never letting your car get below 1/4 tank. I personally run mine lower than that if I have to, but I have two inline filters and an external fuel pump.

I thought this advice was not really relevant to newer cars. Some quick googling seems to back that up as well. Since most pumps are mounted in the bottom of the tank, you are sucking gas from the bottom all the time and will pick debris if it's there regardless of tank level.

In the winter, though, you do need to worry about ethanol and its hydrophilic properties.  I left my car (a 2005) sit for a week with 1/8 of a tank.  We got 2 snow storms in that time.  It refused to start when I tried to go to work on Monday.  The tow guy got her started by flooring the pedal, said there was water or air in the line, admonished me to never leave it with so little in the winter, and to put some DryGas in because of modern ethanol-mixed gasoline. 

Lesson learned: Leave it with a full tank when I go away on vacation.

Forcus

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2014, 12:55:59 PM »

Most "experts" recommend never letting your car get below 1/4 tank. I personally run mine lower than that if I have to, but I have two inline filters and an external fuel pump.

I thought this advice was not really relevant to newer cars. Some quick googling seems to back that up as well. Since most pumps are mounted in the bottom of the tank, you are sucking gas from the bottom all the time and will pick debris if it's there regardless of tank level.

I have a very different reason for not letting tanks run low - most if not all cars have their pumps in the fuel tanks, and those pumps are cooled by the fuel running through them and also by the fuel on the outside of the pump. Running tanks low can heat-damage pumps. Additionally on cars with return lines (not as many newer ones), the fuel will generally be quite warm, compounding the problem. I try not to get below 1/4 tank because replacing fuel pumps is generally a rough job (and having a pump die on you and leave you on the side of the road sucks too).

I filled up the other day at $2.19 and I really wish there was a way to tanker "cheap" fuel but with spoilage and the equipment to properly store it the value prop goes out the window.
Note, these opinions are from someone who is half-mustachian at best. Please consider my comments in that light.

DJstash

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2015, 12:52:28 PM »
Just had to bike my car battery up to OREILLY 's for a free full charge. Something else to consider when driving becomes rare. Apparently these things were not meant for some of us (without clown makeup) to own.

+1

I just had to do the same :)

JLee

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2015, 11:14:19 AM »
Minor Correction to MMM from the OP: 
Gasoline is 6 lbs / US gallon, not 8.  I think he's confused as water is 8 1/3 lbs / gallon.

The old JP4 / Jet A jet fuel is 6.5 lbs / gallon, JP5 / JP8 / Jet A-1 are 6.7 to 6.8 lbs / gallon.

Yeah, a little surprised he didn't fact check that one better. I guess it's not as dramatic if you chop 25% of the weight off. :P

Syonyk

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2015, 05:14:08 PM »
Just had to bike my car battery up to OREILLY 's for a free full charge. Something else to consider when driving becomes rare. Apparently these things were not meant for some of us (without clown makeup) to own.

Get a battery tender.  Letting a lead acid battery go flat (especially a starter battery like most cars have) does physical damage to the cells, and most car batteries can't handle being fully or mostly discharged more than a few times before losing enough capacity that they have to be replaced.

I have a very different reason for not letting tanks run low - most if not all cars have their pumps in the fuel tanks, and those pumps are cooled by the fuel running through them and also by the fuel on the outside of the pump. Running tanks low can heat-damage pumps. Additionally on cars with return lines (not as many newer ones), the fuel will generally be quite warm, compounding the problem. I try not to get below 1/4 tank because replacing fuel pumps is generally a rough job (and having a pump die on you and leave you on the side of the road sucks too).

^^.  I have been lucky on vehicles I've had to replace fuel pumps on, but dropping a tank to replace a pump sucks.  And, inevitably, happens shortly after you've filled up, so you're trying to drop a full tank.

Cheap cars tend to go through fuel pumps more frequently than expensive cars, and I blame it on running with a very low tank frequently.
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raylit20

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2015, 11:38:12 PM »
Another bonus with the ever popular Pontiac Vibe - the fuel pump is accessed from inside the car. I replaced a dead pump on my '03 Vibe in under 20 minutes. Surprised the heck out of me as I'm not used to repairs going so smoothly.

Sid Hoffman

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2015, 04:20:05 PM »
Regular driving sloshes the gas around enough that it should not be suffering the issues of separation.  That problem is mainly with people who store gas cans for months and months then pour it out so whatever's at the top gets poured out first.  A lot of cars really need to have the battery receiving some charge anywhere from a few days to a week or two or else even simple things like the clock, radio, keyless entry radio, etc will draw down the main battery more than it should.

I'll echo what's been said above: if you have the car in a garage, you should put it on a battery tender whenever it's parked.  This is different from a trickle charger, as a tender will help the battery last longer.  A trickle charger can actually shorten the life of the battery.  As long as you're using a tender and driving the car long enough to reach full operating temperature for 5-10 minutes, then everything should remain in good working order.  If you are truly driving so little that your tank of gas will last over 6 months, then consider only fueling up half way.  Obviously a half tank will be in your tank for half as much time as a full tank of fuel, so the gas would be, on average, fresher.

frpeebles

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2015, 06:33:07 PM »
Its worth noting that running many carburated engines "dry" doesn't mean the carb is free of fuel just that the mixture is too lean to run. If you want it as dry as possible you have to use the bowl drain.

Syonyk

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2015, 06:34:01 PM »
Its worth noting that running many carburated engines "dry" doesn't mean the carb is free of fuel just that the mixture is too lean to run. If you want it as dry as possible you have to use the bowl drain.

True.  But "too lean to run" usually means that when you let new gas back into the bowl, it's likely to at least start up.
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frpeebles

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2015, 06:59:33 PM »
Every time I'm done riding my bike I turn the fuel off before I actually get home. If I allow the bike to idle before it stalls quite a lot of fuel remains. I'd hazard a guess at half the bowl configured capacity. If I keep the engine running at higher speeds very little will be left. Either way I drain it unless I'm riding the next day. I'd wager a carb ran "dry" and used infrequently is more detrimental than one just left full because the carb with just a splash of fuel obviously has less time until the last of the fuel drops its precipitates.

RyanAtTanagra

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2015, 05:00:32 PM »
I'll echo what's been said above: if you have the car in a garage, you should put it on a battery tender whenever it's parked.  This is different from a trickle charger, as a tender will help the battery last longer.  A trickle charger can actually shorten the life of the battery.

Wanted to reiterate this one.  I learned the difference between a tender and a trickle charger the hard way when I left my motorcycle hooked up to a trickle charger over winter and found it completely dead come spring (from 2 months of overcharging).  Tenders are intelligent, trickle chargers are not.

frpeebles

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2015, 07:33:35 PM »
I'll echo what's been said above: if you have the car in a garage, you should put it on a battery tender whenever it's parked.  This is different from a trickle charger, as a tender will help the battery last longer.  A trickle charger can actually shorten the life of the battery.

Wanted to reiterate this one.  I learned the difference between a tender and a trickle charger the hard way when I left my motorcycle hooked up to a trickle charger over winter and found it completely dead come spring (from 2 months of overcharging).  Tenders are intelligent, trickle chargers are not.

Sorry to be a pedant on this but a Battery Tender is totally a trickle charger. IIRC mine passes 65ma @ full charge. For many battery chemistry types there exists a current/voltage point which allows practically indefinite trickle ("float") charging. Nothing is stopping regular people from building the most basic of chargers. Hell, I have a high voltage, low current charger for my Insight which, theoretically, is unable to damage the battery.

The only thing that differentiates a Battery Tender from what burned Ryan's battery is the Tender utilizes multiple stages and low trickle charge current.

RyanAtTanagra

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2015, 10:58:18 PM »
The only thing that differentiates a Battery Tender from what burned Ryan's battery is the Tender utilizes multiple stages and low trickle charge current.

Which is the important part

piccione88

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2015, 03:54:32 PM »
 In the article, Mr. Mustache says to draft behind a truck, with the caveat of staying two seconds behind them.
 As a truck driver, I can tell you, for your safety, it's not worth it!!! We cannot see you unless you can easily see both our mirrors. If you are changing lanes, and there is a reason I have to get over, I won't see you.
 As a driver, cars following close, comes just behind cars without lights in winter, cars getting onto highway too slow, and drivers not giving us enough space before cutting in front, as our biggest hazard/pet peeve.

WerKater

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2015, 11:05:39 AM »
In the article, Mr. Mustache says to draft behind a truck, with the caveat of staying two seconds behind them.
 As a truck driver, I can tell you, for your safety, it's not worth it!!! We cannot see you unless you can easily see both our mirrors. If you are changing lanes, and there is a reason I have to get over, I won't see you.
 As a driver, cars following close, comes just behind cars without lights in winter, cars getting onto highway too slow, and drivers not giving us enough space before cutting in front, as our biggest hazard/pet peeve.
Personally, I like to keep a distance of more than 2 seconds (usually 3 to 4 depending on the situation. Occasionally much more) because it allows me to drive much more smoothly even when the people in front of me variate their speed all the time. But 2 seconds is certainly not dangerous. What does it matter if you can see me? Do you drive differently when you know a car to be behind you? And what do you mean with the lane changing thing? If I am behind you and we both change the lane, I will... still be behind you. If you mean the situation where first I change the lane, start to pass you and then you change the lane: please get into the habit of checking whether a lane you want to change into is actually free.
I do agree that one should not get closer than 2 seconds because this does not allow to react in time for emergencies.

piccione88

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2015, 02:50:01 PM »
In the article, Mr. Mustache says to draft behind a truck, with the caveat of staying two seconds behind them.
 As a truck driver, I can tell you, for your safety, it's not worth it!!! We cannot see you unless you can easily see both our mirrors. If you are changing lanes, and there is a reason I have to get over, I won't see you.
 As a driver, cars following close, comes just behind cars without lights in winter, cars getting onto highway too slow, and drivers not giving us enough space before cutting in front, as our biggest hazard/pet peeve.
Personally, I like to keep a distance of more than 2 seconds (usually 3 to 4 depending on the situation. Occasionally much more) because it allows me to drive much more smoothly even when the people in front of me variate their speed all the time. But 2 seconds is certainly not dangerous. What does it matter if you can see me? Do you drive differently when you know a car to be behind you? And what do you mean with the lane changing thing? If I am behind you and we both change the lane, I will... still be behind you. If you mean the situation where first I change the lane, start to pass you and then you change the lane: please get into the habit of checking whether a lane you want to change into is actually free.
I do agree that one should not get closer than 2 seconds because this does not allow to react in time for emergencies.

 No I do not drive differently when I know a car is behind me. I think you are equating you're experience driving a car, to driving a 73 foot long, 80 thousand pound vehicle, and thats dangerous.
 I am a very cautious driver, and am always scanning for traffic around me, and behind me. Trucks have a lot more blind spots than your car, and also take a lot longer to gain speed. So we need to be aware you are near us, so in an emergency, we know to find you before moving over.
 I will give you an example. Say you have been "drafting" behind me for 20 miles. We have gone through the city, and are now in a less populated area. I haven't seen you behind me for 20 miles, and have no idea you're there.
 Now we come around a curve, and there's flashing lights on the shoulder, and a tire in our lane. I slow down just to be safe. At the same time, you can't see what's up there because your right on my ads, and just think I'm a dumb trucker so you speed to the side of me. Your car accelerates much faster, so it's quite possible that you have gotten to the middle of my trailer without me seeing you, and I Wont see you where you are.
 

piccione88

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2015, 09:17:42 PM »
Besides that, smashing into the back of a truck, is way more dangerous than hitting a car. The bumpers on tricks are not that strong, and cars very often go through the bumper, and hit the back of the trailer. If that happens, the point of impact is at eye level. A lot of people have been decapitated that way.

WerKater

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2015, 12:49:16 AM »
In the article, Mr. Mustache says to draft behind a truck, with the caveat of staying two seconds behind them.
 As a truck driver, I can tell you, for your safety, it's not worth it!!! We cannot see you unless you can easily see both our mirrors. If you are changing lanes, and there is a reason I have to get over, I won't see you.
 As a driver, cars following close, comes just behind cars without lights in winter, cars getting onto highway too slow, and drivers not giving us enough space before cutting in front, as our biggest hazard/pet peeve.
Personally, I like to keep a distance of more than 2 seconds (usually 3 to 4 depending on the situation. Occasionally much more) because it allows me to drive much more smoothly even when the people in front of me variate their speed all the time. But 2 seconds is certainly not dangerous. What does it matter if you can see me? Do you drive differently when you know a car to be behind you? And what do you mean with the lane changing thing? If I am behind you and we both change the lane, I will... still be behind you. If you mean the situation where first I change the lane, start to pass you and then you change the lane: please get into the habit of checking whether a lane you want to change into is actually free.
I do agree that one should not get closer than 2 seconds because this does not allow to react in time for emergencies.

 No I do not drive differently when I know a car is behind me. I think you are equating you're experience driving a car, to driving a 73 foot long, 80 thousand pound vehicle, and thats dangerous.
 I am a very cautious driver, and am always scanning for traffic around me, and behind me. Trucks have a lot more blind spots than your car, and also take a lot longer to gain speed. So we need to be aware you are near us, so in an emergency, we know to find you before moving over.
 I will give you an example. Say you have been "drafting" behind me for 20 miles. We have gone through the city, and are now in a less populated area. I haven't seen you behind me for 20 miles, and have no idea you're there.
 Now we come around a curve, and there's flashing lights on the shoulder, and a tire in our lane. I slow down just to be safe. At the same time, you can't see what's up there because your right on my ads, and just think I'm a dumb trucker so you speed to the side of me.
I would not draft you for such a long distance because I would find it much too tiring. I would probably not do it at all, but I still fail to see what would be dangerous here unless one of us behaved in a really stupid way not connected to the distance.
First of all, I would never dream of passing you in the situation you described unless there was a dedicated passing lane for our direction. If I did without that, I would be stupid, but it would have nothing to do with the distance I kept previously. If there is a passing lane, I would probably pass you, unless you had switched your turn signal on to signal that you wanted to change lanes.
Quote
Your car accelerates much faster, so it's quite possible that you have gotten to the middle of my trailer without me seeing you, and I Wont see you where you are.
Do you actually have such a large blind spot right on your left side so that you cannot see what's going on the lane to your left? That's the first I ever heard about that. That would mean that you can never can never change lanes. Parking the truck would also seem quite impossible unless there is very much space.

piccione88

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2015, 03:38:25 AM »
 The thing is you wouldn't know what the situation is. When you are right behind a truck, you can't see what's up ahead.
 And I obviously can see a large majority of the trailer. How about you think about the situation again. I don't have 4 seconds to look before changing lanes, so it is dependant on where you are on the trailer when I go to change lanes. As I said, it's completely possible that you have gotten to the middle part of my trailer when I look.
 My original post was about drafting to save mileage. The article implied that it's a good way to save gas. That would imply to me, that they are suggesting driving long stretches behind a truck at that close distance. Thats what I'm saying is dangerous.
 Every truck driving school, and company, says how dangerous cars driving on trucks ass is. I just love when people who have never driven a truck, want to tell me what's safe to do around them. Would you argue with a rocket scientist about a safe way to build propulsion systems?
 
« Last Edit: June 21, 2015, 03:55:58 AM by piccione88 »

piccione88

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2015, 03:45:31 AM »
A lot of trailers used to have the picture of our blind spots, or at least if you can't see my mirrors I can't see you. But obviously people ignored them.
 Really even in your car it's a good idea to know who is around your car at all times.

But here is a picture, so you can come up with some reason why if you did everuthing perfect, it would be safe.

« Last Edit: June 21, 2015, 03:57:31 AM by piccione88 »

WerKater

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2015, 04:20:07 AM »
Two seconds behind the truck can hardly be qualified as "on the truck's ass". In your picture the car behind the truck is obviously way too close. And the truck is just as much too close to the car in front. 2 seconds at 80km/h is about 45m or almost twice the length of a really large truck. So the two cars in the same lane as the truck have nothing to do with the situation I described.
The cars in the other lanes will in fact have a problem if the truck driver decides to change into their lane because he has not seen them. But what this tells us is that one should not drive next to a truck for extended periods of time. But even then, an accident in that situation would clearly be the truck driver's fault. If you do not have enough time to make sure that your lane change is safe, you cannot change lanes. If there is an obstacle in front of you and you can't change lanes, brake. If you do not have enough time to brake, you were probably too fast.
Not that that has anything to do with the original question of whether a 2 seconds distance is safe.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2015, 04:30:02 AM by WerKater »

piccione88

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2015, 08:44:05 AM »
 The car in front is meant to show how dangerous it is to cut in front of a truck. Any truck driver who rides that close to a car, should have the police called on them. And I have called in drivers I see do this. A lot of guys do that when a car variates speed to not let the truck pass. But following like that is putting that drivers life in danger. It takes much, much longer to stop a truck, and a  truck can do a lot of dmage in a rear end collision at speeds as low as 15 mph
 Which is exactly why it's dangerous to follow closely behind a truck. You just can't admit it for some reason. You keep changing your story. At first it doesn't matter if I can see you, implying that driving so close that you can't see my mirrors is fine. Then when I list the dangers, you say what you would do,and why it would be my fault if I hit you. Which which a)what you would do means nothing to whether or not this part of the theory is safe for drivers, and b) it wouldn't matter who is at fault because I've just lost my license, job, and have to live with the guilt, and you and anyone in the carnage is dead, or seriously hurt.
 Now I show you that it's common knowledge that following too close is dangerous. You ammend your story to the strict definition of 2.seconds. I am operating under the assumption that a lot of people are going to interpret that liberally. As statements you made, imply you did. Like I mentioned before, after my too close to see mirrors comment, which is much closer than 45m at the speeds you listed,you said what does it matter? You also said you'd be tired following that close, implying that having to stay alert enough to react to movements at that distance would make you tired.
 I have seen a lot of people drafting trucks, and it's on the upswing. They all drive a cars distance from the truck in front of them. Trucks are very dangerous vehicles, and us drivers work 14 hour days, so we're not always as fresh as you.
 So when the article mentions drafting, I think everyone should be aware how dangerous it is. Just saying 2 seconds behind off handedly is not enough. People count at different speeds, people don't remember every detail of articles, and may only apply the drafting part
 I feel like everyone should know just how dangerous that can be. I tried to do that. But what do I know, I've only driven a million miles in a truck, and you've seen them. If you rode along in a truck, I guarantee you would be singing a different tune.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2015, 08:48:33 AM by piccione88 »

music lover

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2015, 10:22:37 AM »
Two seconds behind the truck can hardly be qualified as "on the truck's ass". In your picture the car behind the truck is obviously way too close. And the truck is just as much too close to the car in front. 2 seconds at 80km/h is about 45m or almost twice the length of a really large truck. So the two cars in the same lane as the truck have nothing to do with the situation I described.

2 seconds may not be "on the truck's ass", but it's also too far away to effectively ride the slipstream.

WerKater

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2015, 12:19:04 PM »
[...]
The only thing I claimed was that there was nothing inherently dangerous about 2 seconds distance. That (and that I personally do not usually do it) is in fact the very first thing I said in this topic.

You never answered what precisely would be dangerous about you not being able to see me when I am behind you. Except that you came up with teleportation technology which can make me magically appear right next to you in your blind spot just because I was previously 2 seconds behind you.  And you chose to post a picture with a car following about one meter (~ 0.05 seconds) behind a truck. When I told you that that has nothing to do with what I am talking about, you accused me of "ammending my story to the strict definition of 2 seconds" -- which was the very assumption I freaking started with.

Obviously it is dangerous to be too close. But not because the driver in front of you can't see you. But because it leaves you too little time to react. That's where the 2 seconds rule comes from. That's the time that you need in order to react safely to almost all manoeuvres the vehicle before you could suddenly perform.
Since you are only replying to things you are making up.

But, whatever, I am giving up. No point in continuing this.

wienerdog

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2015, 02:26:39 PM »
When you are right behind a truck, you can't see what's up ahead.
 

Not in Argentina.  At least not behind a Samsung truck. lol

https://youtu.be/6GNGfse9ZK8

piccione88

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2015, 08:28:17 PM »
 Wow, that is a really great invention. It would be really nice to see that technology be standard soon. That and basic truck safety being a part of the written drivers test. There are far too many cocky ignorant drivers, and not enough truck saftey measures to compensate.

Leisured

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #43 on: July 07, 2015, 05:44:28 AM »
Thank you for the Samsung Argentina video, wienerdog. A very ingenious idea. I wonder about the cost of the flat screens, unless they are of poorer resolution than flat screens for the house. I suspect that Samsung Argentina might have donated a hundred or so of these systems for publicity.


Making Cookies

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #44 on: February 02, 2016, 12:05:55 PM »
In the article, Mr. Mustache says to draft behind a truck, with the caveat of staying two seconds behind them.
 As a truck driver, I can tell you, for your safety, it's not worth it!!! We cannot see you unless you can easily see both our mirrors. If you are changing lanes, and there is a reason I have to get over, I won't see you.
 As a driver, cars following close, comes just behind cars without lights in winter, cars getting onto highway too slow, and drivers not giving us enough space before cutting in front, as our biggest hazard/pet peeve.

I've seen big trucks fling debris like rocks and retreads behinds them. Don't ever follow too closely. Especially on a motorcycle. What do you save? Five gallons of gas on a long trip? That's what - $10 worth of gasoline right now? A windshield costs $200+. A trip to the hospital costs $X,XXX+.

Yeah it was neat when I was a 20-something and immortal to see how the drop in wind resistance allowed me to back off the throttle. Want to save on gas? Just drive less or drive slower. Same result. ;)

Fuel going bad: friend put a fuel stabilizer in his motorcycle tank and a year or so later I bought the motorcycle. Carbs all had stuck parts inside and I had to take them all apart and massage them back to life. They really needed to be rebuilt but another guy wanted the bike and I wanted an air compressor so we made a deal. I broke even but lost my time. ;)

Hopped in my third car over the weekend. 9 months sitting outside. Battery was dead again (store your car with the battery disconnected is my recommendation). Last time the battery died AutoZone replaced it under warranty. Bad cell. This time I need to pull it and go see what is wrong this time. Acts like a bad cell again. Still under warranty I hope.

Anyhow - jump started it and it started after 10 secs of cranking. Ran great. Drove it around the neighborhood.

Started pressure washer after being stored for 6 months. No fuel stabilizer. Started on first pull. Basic push mower - first pull. 6 months. Stored under the shed. No stabilizer.

My point being that ethanol is suspect. Avoid it. Lots of gas stations still offer ethanol free fuel if you look around. A country store near me has it. I'm a bit wary of the fuel stabilizer hype.

For 6 months or a year - just park your vehicle or engine if the tank has good fuel in it. Anything longer I think you ought to drain the fuel system - including the carb bowl if your vehicle has a carburetor. Store the vehicle somewhere out of the weather.   

FWIW - if your car is anything modern - the gas pump is in the top of the tank. Even many of the 1980s cars had the pump in the top of the tank. Go back into the 70s and there were still cars with the gas flowing out of the bottom of the tank to an external pump and filter. I think it as a NHTSA safety mandate.

A broken fuel line on an old car means the whole tank of fuel potentially leaks onto the ground or into a vehicle fire.

A broken fuel line on an in-tank fuel pump means there is a leak until the pump is switched off. No fuel gravity feeding into a fire after a collision. Can interrupt fuel pump power with oil pressure switches (engine stops, fuel pump stops), inertia switches (car suffers impact, switch cuts power), and/or computer.

I think light trucks have adopted all the same standards now but suspect that in the 80s or 90s they were a few years behind the cars.

Making Cookies

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Re: Hypermiling, oil changes, and gas "spoilage"
« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2016, 12:15:19 PM »
And lastly - let me recommend the "Russian Dash Cam Compilation" videos as a driver's education resource.

There you can see what all the mistakes can lead to.

Probably not a good video to watch with the younger kids.