Giving our future selves the shaft vs. location, location, location!

[FIence!]

You guys, reading the current post was like stepping into a logical and emotional quagmire!

We currently live in a location that we are, at best, lukewarm on. In the summer it's pretty tolerable, and we pretty much hate it in the winter. BUT! We are saving tons of cash living here. MMM's post today seems to extol the virtures of sucking it up in order to save for the future, but then he says:
Choosing a Place to Live is not about kitchen countertop surfaces or closet arrangements. It’s about putting you in the center of where you want your life to be. You can always decorate and optimize, but you cannot teleport. So location is everything, even if it means downsizing or renting instead of buying. Living in the right place gives you back time, energy, and friends.

So, location is everything even if it means downsizing or renting... but is location everything even if it means spending more money?

I would really love to hear thoughts from people who have been in this decision or made this decision. Did you decide to work many more years to live somewhere you love? Or do you have a personal story of trudging through several years of living somewhere you borderline hated because the FIRE carrot was dangling overhead?

How much does it change the argument that we are not in an unhappy location because of countertops or closets (we actually love our house, just not the location), but because it's where we can build a stash... albeit by living a cold-weather life with fewer friends and cultural opportunities, where we tend to complain a lot?

[Scooter]

I am currently living through this dillema. I think I could retire and sustain myself and my family right now; if I was willing to move to a different location. The problem is, I am a little bit of a sucker for "good" schools, "nice" weather, natural beauty, etc. All of these are trade offs for time. I am originally from the Detroit area, but have no desire to return there. I know that I could buy a 40K house in Detroit and make it work, but I have to admit that I want more luxury than I imagine that life would offer. The area of North Carolina where I currently live means more to me (and my family) than the few extra years of working.

[MrsK]

Location is something I am also struggling with . . .

I could retire right now if I was willing to move to a cheaper location.  I am willing to work 5 more years so that the kids can finish school here and then retire.  I worry about my future self because my current self is enjoying CA but will need to make my future self live in Wisconsin in order to retire.

[FIence!]

Too funny, Scooter, we're pretty much living your "I could, but..." scenario. We're in MI, in a house that has under 30k on the mortgage. Being from here, I think you totally get the trade offs. It's freezing cold and grey right now, and we're looking into the abyss with it being only November. And culturally... another abyss. Did you very specifically select the place you live now weighing it against a cheaper (maybe MI) life, or did it just kind of happened through a series of decisions, and now you like how it turned out? (And you say it's a dilemma... does that mean now and then you are still swayed by cheaper living enough that you might consider it?)

MrsK, going "backwards" from a place you love to a cheaper place is tough, that's what brought us here. It's really nice to have more savings, be free from the worry of a debt crises right around every corner, have a mortgage we *could* pay off this year if we wanted to, etc., but it really confirms that money buys security more than happiness. So now we're in the position of deciding which carries more weight.

[SisterX]

So now we're in the position of deciding which carries more weight.

I think you really just need to decide how much you dislike living there.  Yes, it will be a trade-off but most things in life are.  If reaching FI as quick as possible is your be-all, end-all goal, then staying there and being miserable in the short term is probably worth it.  It doesn't sound like you really think that it is, though.  And, this is not a contest.  Being able to say, "I reached FI!" is great, but how you get there matters just as much as anything else.  Is it really worth it if you have to make yourself miserable, or are you willing to trade some life at a job in order to enjoy all of the time you don't spend working?  That is the ultimate choice, and only you can make it.  I think that simply posting this question here should give you your answer, because part of you will be hoping that a majority of people will give you one answer or the other.  Figure out which that is and make your choice accordingly.

[Scooter]

FIence, I call it a dillema because my wife and I are both from the metro detroit area, so we still have ties there. I go back to visit friends and family twice a year. As far as my current location goes, I have been able to see a lot of the world thanks to my job (military.) While I loved living in places like Hawaii, Virginia, and Florida; I found that NC suited my personal interests, had an agreeable climate, good proximity to mountains and oceans, decent cost of living, good schools, and is relatively close to most family and friends. Plus I feel like my kids can stay in the same state after college, so we decided to put down roots here. I requested to be assigned here for my last assignment because I wanted to be sure this was the right place. So, it was by design. However, I must admit that I do browse Zillow on occasion and look up houses for 50K. Usually after a long day at work :)

Too funny, Scooter, we're pretty much living your "I could, but..." scenario. We're in MI, in a house that has under 30k on the mortgage. Being from here, I think you totally get the trade offs. It's freezing cold and grey right now, and we're looking into the abyss with it being only November. And culturally... another abyss. Did you very specifically select the place you live now weighing it against a cheaper (maybe MI) life, or did it just kind of happened through a series of decisions, and now you like how it turned out? (And you say it's a dilemma... does that mean now and then you are still swayed by cheaper living enough that you might consider it?)

MrsK, going "backwards" from a place you love to a cheaper place is tough, that's what brought us here. It's really nice to have more savings, be free from the worry of a debt crises right around every corner, have a mortgage we *could* pay off this year if we wanted to, etc., but it really confirms that money buys security more than happiness. So now we're in the position of deciding which carries more weight.

[luna]

This is a great question.

Currently living in New York and could retire if I was willing to live somewhere else. For the moment liking my job, so I'm staying.

Would I be willing to add 10 years of work just to live in a particular location?

Maybe.

[rocksinmyhead]

Ugh, I understand this so much. My boyfriend and I were just talking the other day about how we are torn on how seriously we should be looking at moving. We kind of hate Tulsa. We are both from up north (Twin Cities and Pittsburgh), and we miss tolerable summers and better options for outdoor recreation. I would LOVE to be closer to my family. Also, being surrounded by insanely conservative political views is maddening after a while. On the other hand, there are some cool aspects to it. Rent is cheap, and we could also buy a house for pretty cheap. Our current neighborhood has A LOT of issues, but I can walk to work, we have a bike path and park nearby that is convenient for dog-walking, we have some good friends here, there's a pretty neat up-and-coming craft beer scene, I've been able to fulfill my dream of owning a sailboat and we have a pretty convenient place to sail it, etc. But the primary thing keeping us here is that I have a GREAT job (both in that I enjoy it and it also pays really well). I'm scared I wouldn't even be able to get a decent job in one of our hometowns, and if I did it would be at least a 50% pay cut and probably also a suckier job. But we both feel like we're postponing things like getting married and having kids because, weren't we going to move out of Oklahoma before we did that?!? I don't want my kids to be Okies, LOL! It's so hard. I totally feel ya.

[RosieTR]

We did both.  Moved to Phoenix for a big bump in pay (for me, and eventually for DH).  Lived there for 3 years.  Moved back to CO for about a $20K/yr drop in pay.  If I had it to do over, never would have moved in the first place.  Would have moved back sooner if we could have.  Due to the housing crisis and timing, we wound up losing all the gains in income anyway, but had we stayed we'd have been closer to ER for sure.  Even though my job now is just OK (not the suckiest ever, but not what I was "born to do") I'd rather work 3 more years here than have lived 3 more months there.

If ER is fairly close, you will have enough $ to move to a place where you'll thrive after becoming FI then it's likely worth it to stick it out.  If you cannot figure out a workable plan to eventually move to a place where you're happier after ER, you should revisit your plans.  Such as "on this track, we'll be ready to move to Desired Location and be FI at age 40".  If you're 37, might be worth it if you can stand it.  If you're 27 you might think about a plan B.

Some criteria might also be in order:
-your health or mental health.  If living somewhere is seriously impacting your health, consider moving. 
-being near people who might not realistically make it til you move to desired location.  You can't get back time with Grandma or Dad or having your kids know Great-Grandpa or Aunt Jane.  Being closer to family might be worth extra time working, or extra time in not your ideal place. 
-realism about how great desired location will be.  I know people who moved to Boulder because they thought: Boulder is *awesome*!!!  But there are some things they found they dind't consider and didn't like about it (lack of diversity, the general attitude of people didn't fit them, the weather was more unpredictable than they wanted, not much to do if you're not into the outdoors or beer, etc).  Every place has drawbacks and sometimes a blessing is also a curse.  Hard to imagine getting sick of the sun when you're in the midwest or PNW in winter, but some people who move to the desert SW or SoCal eventually find they get sick of the sun or the lack of seasonal variation.

[MsRichLife]

We've chosen location as one of our most important things in our lives. I would choose not to live somewhere I hated, regardless of the financial benefits.

While I continue to work, we wanted to live somewhere close to work and in a walkable community. I hate nothing more than having to get in the car to go places, so suburbia is not for us. As a result we are currently living in a small townhouse with a courtyard close to the city and with two 'village' like communities within 15 minutes walk. We wouldn't trade it for the moment but it won't be our forever place.

After FIRE we plan to move to a small, rural town and are currently trying to weigh up whether we live a little further out of town on 10 acres, or a walk to town on 1 acre. Having realised how much I like to walk and bike everywhere, the 1 acre close to town is currently winning.

[deborah]

When I wanted to buy my first house, I worked out where all the bus tram and train routes were in Melbourne, and bought at a hub (not the CBD which only has apartments, but somewhere with a garden). I never regretted buying there. I still think it was the best location in Melbourne.

[steggy81]

"but is location everything even if it means spending more money?"

I often wonder the same thing. 

My husband and I live in Houston, TX with our small child.  We live near an outer loop of the city, it's not surburbia, but it's not urban either.  No zoning, strip malls everywhere, tearing down of trees, etc.  So it doesn't matter how far you get, none of it is really nice.  For reference, I'm a native Houstonian and it's the only reason I live here.  We've often considered moving, but our family ties keep reeling us back in.  Since we aren't leaving, we would like to at least live in a nicer area of the city.  But how can we do it?!!!

The going rates for homes in areas close to our offices start around 400k near my office and one million at least near his office.  For reference our home mortgage is $124k and we pay $1500 (15 year).  To get a rental, as in one bedroom apartment near our offices we would be paying at least $1800 a month.  So when does it make sense to move from your cheap home that is 14 miles from work to the home that is 5 miles from work that you cannot afford?  I should also state that our home is very modest.  We are not impressed with countertops and excessive square footage.  We would love to live in a more desirable part of Houston, but don't know how to do it. 

[FIence!]

But we both feel like we're postponing things like getting married and having kids because, weren't we going to move out of Oklahoma before we did that?!? I don't want my kids to be Okies, LOL! It's so hard. I totally feel ya.

Ha ha, we don't plan on ever having kids, but several times we've said, "Thank god we're not having kids, or we'd have to move right now!"

See, the putting life on hold is a lot of what we're feeling too. At the same time, I can't stress enough that moving isn't simply a matter of optimizing FIRE plans or saving more. It's a matter of saving anything. We were literally in hair on fire debt when we lived somewhere more expensive, and now we're not. I fear moving would reignite my hair.

[Jack]

I worry about my future self because my current self is enjoying CA but will need to make my future self live in Wisconsin in order to retire.

Why are you creating a false dichotomy for yourself? The alternative to California is not Wisconsin; the alternative to California is anywhere cheaper, including the Pacific Northwest, the East Coast (outside of the DC/NY/Boston megalopolis), the Gulf Coast, or even maybe even just a more rural part of California.

The going rates for homes in areas close to our offices start around 400k near my office and one million at least near his office.  For reference our home mortgage is $124k and we pay $1500 (15 year).  To get a rental, as in one bedroom apartment near our offices we would be paying at least $1800 a month.  So when does it make sense to move from your cheap home that is 14 miles from work to the home that is 5 miles from work that you cannot afford?  I should also state that our home is very modest.  We are not impressed with countertops and excessive square footage.  We would love to live in a more desirable part of Houston, but don't know how to do it. 

Is your goal to move somewhere "more desirable" or to move somewhere "closer to work?" If the goal is the latter, then I'm sure you could find somewhere that's both closer and affordable simply my readjusting your standards with regards to "desirable" (in particular, by being willing to accept a neighborhood with a somewhat higher crime rate or less-good schools).

[mm1970]

Location is something I am also struggling with . . .

I could retire right now if I was willing to move to a cheaper location.  I am willing to work 5 more years so that the kids can finish school here and then retire.  I worry about my future self because my current self is enjoying CA but will need to make my future self live in Wisconsin in order to retire.

I can relate.  I am 44, I live in Santa Barbara.  We could both retire now if we moved back to where our families live.

But I love California. 

[mm1970]

"but is location everything even if it means spending more money?"

I often wonder the same thing. 

My husband and I live in Houston, TX with our small child.  We live near an outer loop of the city, it's not surburbia, but it's not urban either.  No zoning, strip malls everywhere, tearing down of trees, etc.  So it doesn't matter how far you get, none of it is really nice.  For reference, I'm a native Houstonian and it's the only reason I live here.  We've often considered moving, but our family ties keep reeling us back in.  Since we aren't leaving, we would like to at least live in a nicer area of the city.  But how can we do it?!!!

The going rates for homes in areas close to our offices start around 400k near my office and one million at least near his office.  For reference our home mortgage is $124k and we pay $1500 (15 year).  To get a rental, as in one bedroom apartment near our offices we would be paying at least $1800 a month.  So when does it make sense to move from your cheap home that is 14 miles from work to the home that is 5 miles from work that you cannot afford?  I should also state that our home is very modest.  We are not impressed with countertops and excessive square footage.  We would love to live in a more desirable part of Houston, but don't know how to do it.

Well, I guess I wouldn't move then.  I mean, I like the idea of living/ working close to the same place so you can bike, etc., but sometimes it's not terribly feasible.  And personally, how long do you work for the same company?  I've had 3 jobs in the 17 years that I've lived where I do (admittedly, all in the same general area).  My husband has had 3 different jobs.  We bought our house to be mid-point between our jobs but then he changed jobs, now we are both commuting 10 miles in the same direction (our offices are a block from each other).

But how long will we be at these jobs?  People don't stay in the same place forever anymore.  You could buy a house near your job, but then change jobs. Then what?  I've thought about moving to near our workplace, but it would cost a lot of money to sell our house and buy another one, and we didn't buy at the best time.

[Beardog]

My situation is a bit different than Flence! but involves making a choice to move to a low COL area.  This spring I will sell my condo in a high COL area and move to a low COL area.  Although I am expecting that this move will be very challenging, it will allow me to bank some equity and FI much sooner.  I have been visiting potential communities over the past year and have narrowed down my decision to two of them.  Both cities have many desirable characteristics, but the move will involve leaving friends and a comfortable way of life behind, starting a new life and adapting to a different social milieu.

Flence! - are you sure you've explored all the options in your state or region?  Are there communities in which you might not save as much, but in which you would be happier?  I don't know what you're interests are ... but have you looked into things like getting involved in community organizations, such as teaching an adult ed class in the town's continuing ed program?  volunteering to teach English to foreign language speakers?  coaching sports?  Can you strategically plan a few low cost trips a year to nearby cities to enjoy some of the cultural opportunities lacking in your own? 

When you're making tough sacrifices (like living in an area you don't like to save money) it can be hard.  But when you start to get close to FI and can see the benefits of the choices you've made, it can be a really wonderful feeling.  If you tough it out and achieve your financial goals, you might find that the sacrifice was worth it.  (That's how I'm feeling right now!)

One more thing ... living in a higher COL are can be challenging when you are trying to live a Mustachian lifestyle.  People don't understand why you don't have a smart phone or why you don't go on fancy vacations every year.  People think nothing of dropping large sums of money dining in fancy restaurants.  The high COL area in which I currently live has incredible cultural opportunities but also presents challenges in dealing with affluence.  It has occurred to me that I might feel more comfortable living in one of the more modest communities that I'm planning to move to.