Author Topic: Electric bikes  (Read 74560 times)

tyort1

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #150 on: November 23, 2015, 04:51:06 PM »
I also like the conversion kit from Clean Republic because it's pretty dang simple - a new front wheel with the hub in it.  It connects to a separate battery pack.  Beyond simple.
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hoping2retire35

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #151 on: December 16, 2015, 07:03:59 AM »
Does anyone know what a typical state rule is regarding getting insurance/registration on a electric bike? I have a low speed moped where all you have to have is a drivers license, so I guess it would depend on the speed capability of the bike.

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #152 on: December 16, 2015, 09:13:35 AM »
Yep. I think federal rule is 750 w max with speed limited to the equivalent of 35 km per hr.
Below that and you are a bicycle.

Above that and you need to check with your state for requirements to register as a limited speed motorcycle or motorcycle. Those may require brake lights, headlamp, speedometer, signal, and maybe a brake check

Some cities or states reduce the ebike federal guideline cut off to 500w. City bylaws may govern where you can ride on paths, etc.


Goldielocks

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #154 on: December 17, 2015, 12:28:11 AM »

Here is the wiki (I hate referencing Wiki, but I am lazy today and had cross checked this to the actual US legal text last year, so I think it is ok..

The federal Consumer Product Safety Act defines a "low speed electric bicycle" as a two or three wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals, a top speed when powered solely by the motor under 20 mph (32 km/h) and an electric motor that produces less than 750 W (1.01 hp). The Act authorizes the Consumer Product Safety Commission to protect people who ride low-speed electric vehicles by issuing necessary safety regulations.[49] The rules for e-bikes on public roads, sidewalks, and pathways are under state jurisdiction, and vary.
....
Low Speed electric Bicycles have operable pedals, an electric motor of less than 750W (1 hp), and a top motor-powered speed of less than 20 miles per hour (32 km/h) when operated by a rider weighing 170 pounds.


Minimum age of around 15 or 16 in effect for quite a few states.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws


Syonyk

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #155 on: December 17, 2015, 12:07:19 PM »
Does anyone know what a typical state rule is regarding getting insurance/registration on a electric bike? I have a low speed moped where all you have to have is a drivers license, so I guess it would depend on the speed capability of the bike.

"You don't have to."  California allows pedal assist bikes up to 28mph, and pretty much everywhere else allows 20mph and 750W (Washington allows 1000W) to be considered in the same class as a bicycle, so no registration/title/insurance/etc.

Some states are a bit more confusing (Idaho doesn't actually have a concept of an electric bike, and their "What is it?" flow chart is dreadfully confusing for this case), so I tend to go with "Nobody cares enough to know what it is, so if it looks like a bicycle and you're riding it like a bicycle, nobody will think it's anything but a bicycle."
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Jeremy E.

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #156 on: December 17, 2015, 12:17:41 PM »
Does anyone know what a typical state rule is regarding getting insurance/registration on a electric bike? I have a low speed moped where all you have to have is a drivers license, so I guess it would depend on the speed capability of the bike.

"You don't have to."  California allows pedal assist bikes up to 28mph, and pretty much everywhere else allows 20mph and 750W (Washington allows 1000W) to be considered in the same class as a bicycle, so no registration/title/insurance/etc.

Some states are a bit more confusing (Idaho doesn't actually have a concept of an electric bike, and their "What is it?" flow chart is dreadfully confusing for this case), so I tend to go with "Nobody cares enough to know what it is, so if it looks like a bicycle and you're riding it like a bicycle, nobody will think it's anything but a bicycle."
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Syonyk

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #157 on: December 20, 2015, 07:26:29 PM »
Hooray for my home state, I love Idaho.

:D I'm moving out there in the next year.  Seems a wonderful place!

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I put a rebuilt BionX kit into a medium frame Specialized tonight - good fun.  I've still got a lot to do to finish making a "good commuter" out of it, but it's basically a "to sell" build - the battery pack is freshly rebuilt with greater-than-stock capacity (as I can do), and it seems easier to sell a fully functional ebike than just the kit.

The things are rather breeding in my garage.  I need to get rid of a few, but some of them are R&D bikes, and others aren't quite ready to sell yet (mostly because I haven't finished building or R&D'ing them).

It's quite the fun hobby! :D
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hoping2retire35

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #158 on: January 19, 2016, 12:47:48 PM »
OK, what is the running opinion of buying a kit for an existing bike versus a new(read used, but new to the buyer) complete electric bike?

I am thinking of doing this for a tandem, so if that makes a difference please post.

Rollin

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #159 on: January 19, 2016, 01:01:54 PM »
OK, what is the running opinion of buying a kit for an existing bike versus a new(read used, but new to the buyer) complete electric bike?

I am thinking of doing this for a tandem, so if that makes a difference please post.

I would be more apt to purchase a brand name used then one that was put together from various sources.  Not to say that they are a problem, but for example my Bionx kit is tried and true.  Maybe I would see what the original battery was expected to do and do a test on the used one just to make sure it was still in good shape.  Of course, a lot depends on the price too.
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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #160 on: January 19, 2016, 01:27:16 PM »
I'm back to square one with doing an e-bike conversion.  Anyone have any (current) recommendations?

FWIW, I recommend not buying anything from Dillenger.  After 3.5 months and a credit card chargeback dispute, I finally got my full refund for the defective conversion kit. 

Jeremy E.

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #161 on: January 19, 2016, 01:32:16 PM »
OK, what is the running opinion of buying a kit for an existing bike versus a new(read used, but new to the buyer) complete electric bike?

I am thinking of doing this for a tandem, so if that makes a difference please post.
I bought a complete electric bike and the frame is quite different from a normal bike(see picture) however I don't think there would be a lot of options for a complete tandem ebike so making your own might be a good idea, it might be a bit tricky with 2 cranks, I'd probably recommend a rear wheel kit. Bion X definitely makes the best rear wheel kits but they are also the most expensive.

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #162 on: January 19, 2016, 01:39:34 PM »
In full disclosure, I started a business regarding electric bikes about 6 months ago.  It's a side gig and is doing fairly well.  It's an interest to me, so I like doing it.  For anyone looking at a mid drive, the Bafang brand has some good options.  I'll be carrying them myself soon, along with some hub motors.  If you live in a flat area, a rear hub motor is all you'll ever need.  In hilly terrain, a mid drive is more ideal, but you can get by with either.  I've been commuting up rather steep terrain for the past several months mainly with a hub motor, occasional with a mid drive setup.  Just depends on the weather.  (One is a velomobile, so I use it when raining.)
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Rollin

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #163 on: January 19, 2016, 01:40:29 PM »
OK, what is the running opinion of buying a kit for an existing bike versus a new(read used, but new to the buyer) complete electric bike?

I am thinking of doing this for a tandem, so if that makes a difference please post.
I bought a complete electric bike and the frame is quite different from a normal bike(see picture) however I don't think there would be a lot of options for a complete tandem ebike so making your own might be a good idea, it might be a bit tricky with 2 cranks, I'd probably recommend a rear wheel kit. Bion X definitely makes the best rear wheel kits but they are also the most expensive.

I was alluding to the (cost of Bionx), but I have to say that when I had an issue they handled it (actually replaced the rear wheel hub with a brand new one).  I have two Bionx kits BTW (one on the Big Dummy and one on the Xtracycle).
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Jeremy E.

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #164 on: January 19, 2016, 01:46:58 PM »
I'm back to square one with doing an e-bike conversion.  Anyone have any (current) recommendations?

FWIW, I recommend not buying anything from Dillenger.  After 3.5 months and a credit card chargeback dispute, I finally got my full refund for the defective conversion kit.
I've never done an electric bike conversion, but If I was going to convert a bike, I'd try and find a decent steel framed hard tail, and get a 500 watt e rad mid drive conversion kit for it, probably get a battery from em3ev.com as I've heard great things about them. If you want to spend as little as possible then I'd probably go for a bafang BBS02 350 watt mid drive conversion kit and make some LIPO batteries with LIPO from HobbyKing.com. Electricbikereview.com reviews lots of bikes and kits, the endless sphere forums can give you a lot of good information as well. You can get more reliable products with faster shipping from stores like em3ev.com, but if you want less expensive(and potentially more risky) products you can try aliexpress and alibaba.

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #165 on: January 19, 2016, 01:50:10 PM »
OK, what is the running opinion of buying a kit for an existing bike versus a new(read used, but new to the buyer) complete electric bike?

I am thinking of doing this for a tandem, so if that makes a difference please post.
I bought a complete electric bike and the frame is quite different from a normal bike(see picture) however I don't think there would be a lot of options for a complete tandem ebike so making your own might be a good idea, it might be a bit tricky with 2 cranks, I'd probably recommend a rear wheel kit. Bion X definitely makes the best rear wheel kits but they are also the most expensive.

I was alluding to the (cost of Bionx), but I have to say that when I had an issue they handled it (actually replaced the rear wheel hub with a brand new one).  I have two Bionx kits BTW (one on the Big Dummy and one on the Xtracycle).
I was only replying to hoping2retire, I wasn't talking about anything you said I just think that Bion X makes the best rear wheel kits, but they're very spendy. It seems you also back Bion X so that makes two of us.

dogboyslim

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #166 on: January 19, 2016, 03:37:14 PM »
I was thinking about one of these and looked at my insurance policies to make sure my liability was covered.  For my bicycles, my homeowners liability covers me, but it excludes liability for a motor vehicle, which is a defined term to include any vehicle that is powered wholly or in part by a motor.  I called my agent and she said I'd need a separate e-bike liability policy.  Terms vary by carrier, so I'm not saying you aren't covered for liability, but please check your specific policy.  Given the faster speeds of e-bikes, I can see an accident having potentially larger damages that would give the insurance companies reason to deny coverage.

Syonyk

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #167 on: January 19, 2016, 05:21:47 PM »
OK, what is the running opinion of buying a kit for an existing bike versus a new(read used, but new to the buyer) complete electric bike?

I am thinking of doing this for a tandem, so if that makes a difference please post.

If it's for a tandem, do it yourself.  IF you can find a commercially built tandem, you're going to pay obscene amounts of money for it.  Commercial electric bikes are generally quite pricey for what they are. :/

And as for finding a commercially built tandem, used?  Good luck.  I doubt you can find a single one for sale.  That's so far down the weeds of weird builds that it's likely to be impossible to find.

If you want "bolt on and go," get one of the newer BionX kits with a heavy duty wheel.  Replace your rear wheel, and go.  You'll probably need to order some extension cables to be able to mount everything where it needs to go.  The kit is expensive, especially with a large battery, but it really does just work, and they've done a nice job with their torque sensors.  It's "set the assist and go."  Also, more usefully on a tandem, you have regenerative braking, and a tandem is heavy enough that this may well be useful.  One downside is that the kits generally limit at 20mph (US federal limit), and tandems can cruise a lot faster, so you wouldn't have assist at cruise.

If you want to pure DIY, the sky is the limit.  I'd generally suggest a rear hub drive, as that avoids the complexity of trying to figure out a mid-drive with a tandem.
My random project blog - ebikes, DIY, fans, and more: http://syonyk.blogspot.com

Rollin

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #168 on: January 22, 2016, 07:07:55 PM »
OK, what is the running opinion of buying a kit for an existing bike versus a new(read used, but new to the buyer) complete electric bike?

I am thinking of doing this for a tandem, so if that makes a difference please post.
I bought a complete electric bike and the frame is quite different from a normal bike(see picture) however I don't think there would be a lot of options for a complete tandem ebike so making your own might be a good idea, it might be a bit tricky with 2 cranks, I'd probably recommend a rear wheel kit. Bion X definitely makes the best rear wheel kits but they are also the most expensive.

I was alluding to the (cost of Bionx), but I have to say that when I had an issue they handled it (actually replaced the rear wheel hub with a brand new one).  I have two Bionx kits BTW (one on the Big Dummy and one on the Xtracycle).
I was only replying to hoping2retire, I wasn't talking about anything you said I just think that Bion X makes the best rear wheel kits, but they're very spendy. It seems you also back Bion X so that makes two of us.

No disagreement here.
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Goldielocks

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #169 on: January 28, 2016, 01:18:05 AM »
OK, what is the running opinion of buying a kit for an existing bike versus a new(read used, but new to the buyer) complete electric bike?

I am thinking of doing this for a tandem, so if that makes a difference please post.

If it's for a tandem, do it yourself.  IF you can find a commercially built tandem, you're going to pay obscene amounts of money for it.  Commercial electric bikes are generally quite pricey for what they are. :/

And as for finding a commercially built tandem, used?  Good luck.  I doubt you can find a single one for sale.  That's so far down the weeds of weird builds that it's likely to be impossible to find.

If you want "bolt on and go," get one of the newer BionX kits with a heavy duty wheel.  Replace your rear wheel, and go.  You'll probably need to order some extension cables to be able to mount everything where it needs to go.  The kit is expensive, especially with a large battery, but it really does just work, and they've done a nice job with their torque sensors.  It's "set the assist and go."  Also, more usefully on a tandem, you have regenerative braking, and a tandem is heavy enough that this may well be useful.  One downside is that the kits generally limit at 20mph (US federal limit), and tandems can cruise a lot faster, so you wouldn't have assist at cruise.

If you want to pure DIY, the sky is the limit.  I'd generally suggest a rear hub drive, as that avoids the complexity of trying to figure out a mid-drive with a tandem.
Agreed!

Hub drive is much easier for do it yourself.   You can take in your existing wheel, and the hub drive to a bike shop and pay them to respoke it.  easy.  attach the controller / battery / throttle / light and you are pretty much done.

 Mid drive, and there are a lot more parts to consider, as I just discovered, like what rear cassette to use, other parts.     We are building a mid drive bike now, so will see how noisy it is when done, but excited to do it.

Bafang - man, I wanted one of those (with nylon gear for lower noise) but they are so expensive.  Over $800 the last time I looked, and the CDN dollar keeps falling.   We went with a different drive, similar to Bafang but much cheaper.

hoping2retire35

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #170 on: January 28, 2016, 06:07:20 AM »
Has anyone done a front drive?

this seems like a pretty affordable option. What are the downsides?

http://www.electric-bike-kit.com/hill-topper.aspx

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #171 on: January 28, 2016, 09:53:41 AM »
Has anyone done a front drive?

I've ridden one.  http://syonyk.blogspot.com/2015/09/schwinn-tailwind-review-in-2015.html

Quote
this seems like a pretty affordable option. What are the downsides?

Many.

1. You can't use a front hub drive with suspension forks unless they're designed for it.  Which is to say, don't use a front hub drive with suspension forks.
2. The handling is goofy at best.  Bike geometries are not designed for power through the front wheel.  Handling gets vague and rather dangerous depending on the power and geometry - much like how a high power front wheel drive car is weird under power, the bike will do the same thing.
3. You run a much higher risk of spinning the wheel up from the power if it's wet or slick out.

If you are going to do it, make sure you use non-suspension forks and good torque arms.  If your front hub tears the dropouts up and falls out, you're going to crash, probably quite violently and painfully.  Front wheel failures are no fun at all, from what I hear.

If you live in a very flat area and are willing to go with a 250W kit or so (max), it's borderline acceptable, but it's still not a good general solution.
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synonym

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #172 on: January 28, 2016, 02:40:54 PM »
I've had no trouble with riding/handling my front wheel electric bike kit (350W Dillenger).
(Installation did require some grinding to open out the dropout, otherwise it's an fairly clean install).
My bike is an electra Townie - no suspension, steel forks, long wheelbase.
I ride it on roads and bike paths, occasionally gravel/dirt, though performance with slick tires is not the best when its loose and steep. That would be a job for a different bike/motor though.
Typically i tool around at anything from 10-25 mph, only mostly flat or comparatively gentle slopes.
Hope that helps.

Making Cookies

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #173 on: February 02, 2016, 07:42:14 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE

I thought this electric bike "problem" was interesting.

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #174 on: February 02, 2016, 09:07:04 AM »
I don't care a bit about the drama of competitive cycling. :)  Hopefully this gets the concept of an electric bike in front of a few more people, though.

A week ago, I did an "electric bike demo day" at work - I have three of the things in my garage right now (my commuter, my long range bike & the one my wife rides, and one I'm building for another guy with a rebuilt battery pack), so I took them to work and showed them off/let people ride them.

I got to see a lot of "ebike grins" - the silly grin people come back with after taking one for a spin the first time.

No idea if it'll get anyone to switch from their car, but at least it's planting the seed.  Parking at work is radically better with the new building online, so the parking aspect is less important now.
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Making Cookies

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #175 on: February 02, 2016, 09:52:33 AM »
Oh I'm not into the competitive bike thing either but the way the motor was integrated into the bike was interesting to me from an engineering standpoint.

The e-bike kits have gotten nicer along the way over the past decade. I'd like to build a mid-drive and integrate the batteries into the frame somehow.

Definitely want one to help conquer the hills around here which are steep. I want to ride more but don't want to struggle up curvy roads where I might not be spotted by the yahoo racing along at 50 mph on a country road with no shoulders.

The e-bike tech would help me minimize the time spent on dangerous portions of various roads I ride. 

Goldielocks

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #176 on: February 03, 2016, 01:38:20 AM »
Has anyone done a front drive?

I've ridden one.  http://syonyk.blogspot.com/2015/09/schwinn-tailwind-review-in-2015.html

Quote
this seems like a pretty affordable option. What are the downsides?

Many.

1. You can't use a front hub drive with suspension forks unless they're designed for it.  Which is to say, don't use a front hub drive with suspension forks.
2. The handling is goofy at best.  Bike geometries are not designed for power through the front wheel.  Handling gets vague and rather dangerous depending on the power and geometry - much like how a high power front wheel drive car is weird under power, the bike will do the same thing.
3. You run a much higher risk of spinning the wheel up from the power if it's wet or slick out.

If you are going to do it, make sure you use non-suspension forks and good torque arms.  If your front hub tears the dropouts up and falls out, you're going to crash, probably quite violently and painfully.  Front wheel failures are no fun at all, from what I hear.

If you live in a very flat area and are willing to go with a 250W kit or so (max), it's borderline acceptable, but it's still not a good general solution.

I rode one for several years, including a daily bike commuter and towing a trailer with kids in it up hills.

It was terrific.  Low cost and a lot of power.  Ran on the lead acid battery for at least 30 minutes, and hour with pedalling.  Batteries today are so much better, too.

Disadvantages (which is why we are building a mid drive bike now):
Heavy front wheel -- I wasn't jumping a full 4 inch square curb or large roots on trails anymore.
When the battery is dead, there is a lot of internal rolling resistance in the hub motor (front or back).
Our kit had a lot of wires zap strapped to our bike frame (it was a kit, so no wires fed from through the tubes).

BUT Advantages-- it was under $500, simple to install and operate, we installed on an existing bike, all the normal bike accessories worked (paniers, trailer, trail a bike).  The hub motor is so quiet, and it had lots of power.  Hub motor is enclosed so dirt, sand and puddles are not a problem.  Simple to shift gears and less gear shifting needed.

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #177 on: February 12, 2016, 10:23:28 AM »
Which mid-drive kit are you using? Link? Thanks.


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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #179 on: February 12, 2016, 12:56:42 PM »
The Bosch kits are apparently insanely good, but also insanely expensive.

The E-Rad kit is a Bafang BBS02 unit with a bunch of nice goodies added (stuff you'll want anyway).  They're quite good, from what I hear.  I haven't actually owned a mid-drive bike.
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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #180 on: February 12, 2016, 01:02:13 PM »
The Bosch kits are apparently insanely good, but also insanely expensive.

The E-Rad kit is a Bafang BBS02 unit with a bunch of nice goodies added (stuff you'll want anyway).  They're quite good, from what I hear.  I haven't actually owned a mid-drive bike.
they are a newer version of the BBS02 unit, engineered and designed by a different company, but made by the same company

Syonyk

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #181 on: February 12, 2016, 01:47:32 PM »
Ah, interesting.  I thought it was just a rebadged unit.  Neat!
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Goldielocks

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #182 on: February 12, 2016, 09:49:13 PM »
Which mid-drive kit are you using? Link? Thanks.

Cylone mid drive motor...

3000W  so it lasts longer.  we will limit the speed to legal limit, but let it climb hills under load...

http://lunacycle.com/motors/mid-drive-kits/cyclone-mid-drive/cyclone-mid-drive-3000-watt-planetary/
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 09:51:36 PM by goldielocks »


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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #184 on: February 13, 2016, 07:57:33 AM »
Which mid-drive kit are you using? Link? Thanks.

Cylone mid drive motor...

3000W  so it lasts longer.  we will limit the speed to legal limit, but let it climb hills under load...

http://lunacycle.com/motors/mid-drive-kits/cyclone-mid-drive/cyclone-mid-drive-3000-watt-planetary/
That's interesting - much less than the Bafang kit. What's so hard about installing that? The Web page makes it sound difficult but doesn't say why.

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #185 on: February 13, 2016, 08:42:44 AM »
Cylone mid drive motor...

3000W  so it lasts longer.  we will limit the speed to legal limit, but let it climb hills under load...

http://lunacycle.com/motors/mid-drive-kits/cyclone-mid-drive/cyclone-mid-drive-3000-watt-planetary/
It will last longer because it has 300watts? That makes no sense, it's like saying a car will last longer because it's 300hp

Well, 3000W, not 300W.  Plus not using that most of the time.  And it's reasonable.

It's heavily overspec'd for the legal speed limit (usually 20mph, at least in the US).  Rolling at 20mph on a motor will typically consume around 600-700W electrical from the battery - so cruising at less than a quarter of rated power.  Even running hard up hills, it's likely to be less than the rated 3000W, so it's going to be cooler running and should last basically forever.

Running a motor (and controller) well under it's rated power is a good way to keep them going for a long time.  I'm doing the same thing - my motor is rated to about 80v, and my controller is a 60A/50A capable unit I'm currently running at 36v/35A (though I never see more than 32A and about 1100W through it).  I did this because it's my daily commuter, and my previous build finally failed from me pushing the motor too hard (it had a lot of other problems early on as well, all related to power handling).

So, yes, using a 3kW motor on a street bike should make for a very reliable motor & controller pair when run at street power settings.

Also, a lot of ebike parts come with "Chinese power ratings" - which should generally be interpreted as the power it will handle, once.  I usually assume about a 50% derate for highly reliable use.
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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #186 on: February 13, 2016, 11:44:34 AM »
Cylone mid drive motor...

3000W  so it lasts longer.  we will limit the speed to legal limit, but let it climb hills under load...

http://lunacycle.com/motors/mid-drive-kits/cyclone-mid-drive/cyclone-mid-drive-3000-watt-planetary/
It will last longer because it has 300watts? That makes no sense, it's like saying a car will last longer because it's 300hp

Well, 3000W, not 300W.  Plus not using that most of the time.  And it's reasonable.

It's heavily overspec'd for the legal speed limit (usually 20mph, at least in the US).  Rolling at 20mph on a motor will typically consume around 600-700W electrical from the battery - so cruising at less than a quarter of rated power.  Even running hard up hills, it's likely to be less than the rated 3000W, so it's going to be cooler running and should last basically forever.

Running a motor (and controller) well under it's rated power is a good way to keep them going for a long time.  I'm doing the same thing - my motor is rated to about 80v, and my controller is a 60A/50A capable unit I'm currently running at 36v/35A (though I never see more than 32A and about 1100W through it).  I did this because it's my daily commuter, and my previous build finally failed from me pushing the motor too hard (it had a lot of other problems early on as well, all related to power handling).

So, yes, using a 3kW motor on a street bike should make for a very reliable motor & controller pair when run at street power settings.

Also, a lot of ebike parts come with "Chinese power ratings" - which should generally be interpreted as the power it will handle, once.  I usually assume about a 50% derate for highly reliable use.
I guess that makes sense, although I think you meant going 20mph will run the motor around 600-700w not consume that much of the battery, as you measure a battery by watt hours, not watts.

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #187 on: February 13, 2016, 11:55:12 AM »
Posting to following as I'm thinking of buying an e-bike in a year or so.
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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #188 on: February 13, 2016, 12:09:29 PM »
I guess that makes sense, although I think you meant going 20mph will run the motor around 600-700w not consume that much of the battery, as you measure a battery by watt hours, not watts.

Yes, that's what I said.  I suppose "consume" may not have been the best term, though. 

"Steady state power use at 20mph on flat ground is about 600W" may be a better phrasing.
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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #189 on: February 14, 2016, 01:12:11 AM »
Which mid-drive kit are you using? Link? Thanks.

Cylone mid drive motor...

3000W  so it lasts longer.  we will limit the speed to legal limit, but let it climb hills under load...

http://lunacycle.com/motors/mid-drive-kits/cyclone-mid-drive/cyclone-mid-drive-3000-watt-planetary/
It will last longer because it has 300watts? That makes no sense, it's like saying a car will last longer because it's 300hp

It needs stronger gears to carry the 3000W versus a 500 W motor.

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #190 on: February 14, 2016, 01:14:20 AM »
Which mid-drive kit are you using? Link? Thanks.

Cylone mid drive motor...

3000W  so it lasts longer.  we will limit the speed to legal limit, but let it climb hills under load...

http://lunacycle.com/motors/mid-drive-kits/cyclone-mid-drive/cyclone-mid-drive-3000-watt-planetary/
That's interesting - much less than the Bafang kit. What's so hard about installing that? The Web page makes it sound difficult but doesn't say why.
We are about to find out...   I think it means more difficult than a hub motor, which was so simple even I could do it.  The mid drive will take my DH a little longer.  I think because you want to get the chain drive / tension just right, but we will see.

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #191 on: February 14, 2016, 01:18:19 AM »
Cylone mid drive motor...

3000W  so it lasts longer.  we will limit the speed to legal limit, but let it climb hills under load...

http://lunacycle.com/motors/mid-drive-kits/cyclone-mid-drive/cyclone-mid-drive-3000-watt-planetary/
It will last longer because it has 300watts? That makes no sense, it's like saying a car will last longer because it's 300hp

Well, 3000W, not 300W.  Plus not using that most of the time.  And it's reasonable.

It's heavily overspec'd for the legal speed limit (usually 20mph, at least in the US).  Rolling at 20mph on a motor will typically consume around 600-700W electrical from the battery - so cruising at less than a quarter of rated power.  Even running hard up hills, it's likely to be less than the rated 3000W, so it's going to be cooler running and should last basically forever.

Running a motor (and controller) well under it's rated power is a good way to keep them going for a long time.  I'm doing the same thing - my motor is rated to about 80v, and my controller is a 60A/50A capable unit I'm currently running at 36v/35A (though I never see more than 32A and about 1100W through it).  I did this because it's my daily commuter, and my previous build finally failed from me pushing the motor too hard (it had a lot of other problems early on as well, all related to power handling).

So, yes, using a 3kW motor on a street bike should make for a very reliable motor & controller pair when run at street power settings.

Also, a lot of ebike parts come with "Chinese power ratings" - which should generally be interpreted as the power it will handle, once.  I usually assume about a 50% derate for highly reliable use.
  Wow Syonyk, that is pretty much verbatim what my DH said.   Including the Chinese power rating bit...  ... wait a minute -- are you my DH in disguise?....

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #192 on: February 14, 2016, 06:20:30 AM »
Pretty sure I'm not. No 3kW bikes in my garage...
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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #193 on: February 14, 2016, 07:27:57 AM »
We are about to find out...   I think it means more difficult than a hub motor, which was so simple even I could do it.  The mid drive will take my DH a little longer.  I think because you want to get the chain drive / tension just right, but we will see.

Please update us on how it goes.  I have no problem doing any "normal bike" work -- have all the necessary tools, and am a former shop mechanic.

FWIW, installing a rear hub motor kit took me hours.  It was sold to me as 8-speed compatible, but the 8-speed thread-on freewheel didn't fit on the hub body without the freewheel locking up.  I had to chamfer the hub mating surface with a Dremel in order to make it fit (and still freewheel properly), and to maintain a 135mm OLD measurement -- i.e. no freewheel spacers, which would just spread the rear triangle and screw up chainline.  That wheel was really made for a 7-speed.

I'm interested in the mid-drive (and triangle-mount battery, or water bottle cage mount battery) in order to try to keep that weight low and balanced F-R.  The hub motor kit + rear rack battery made for a very rear-heavy bike, with the battery weight high off the ground.  I can also use normal Q/R wheels (not the shoddily-built hub motor wheels), and not have to futz about with filing the dropouts. 

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #194 on: February 14, 2016, 08:15:57 AM »
Just spent awhile reading all the things I can find online about the Cyclone 3000W motor.  I can see now why it's described as difficult to mount.  The hose clamp + giant zip tie seems like a fairly hokey way to hold the 10-pound motor in place.  I'll have to do some more reading on it, and on the Bafang ones, which look like a much better integrated kit (no exposed drive chain, motor mounts to BB threads w/ built-in bracket).

Anyone know if the Bafang bottom bracket can be replaced when it wears out?  e.g., with a Shimano square taper BB?

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #195 on: February 15, 2016, 03:32:18 PM »
Just spent awhile reading all the things I can find online about the Cyclone 3000W motor.  I can see now why it's described as difficult to mount.  The hose clamp + giant zip tie seems like a fairly hokey way to hold the 10-pound motor in place.  I'll have to do some more reading on it, and on the Bafang ones, which look like a much better integrated kit (no exposed drive chain, motor mounts to BB threads w/ built-in bracket).

Anyone know if the Bafang bottom bracket can be replaced when it wears out?  e.g., with a Shimano square taper BB?
Yeah,,,,  I wanted Bafang, too, but the cost was horrendous, as the CDN dollar tanked, it jumped up about another 50% in cost.  Well over $800 just for the motor.
I think we can accept hose clamps and such.   DH is actually making both a batter cover / bracket and motor bracket in the shop to address this.

To the other post about matching up the hubs and drive train, we hoped to avoid large issues by finally just accepting the recommended rear hub parts and ordering them.  A bike shop will put together the basic bike, we are just mounting the motor, battery, throttle, etc.

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #196 on: February 16, 2016, 03:45:54 AM »
Who all has a bike instead of the kit?  What are the favorites in the Ebike department?

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #197 on: February 16, 2016, 09:25:12 AM »
Who all has a bike instead of the kit?  What are the favorites in the Ebike department?

What are you asking, specifically?  Who has a factory built bike instead of a conversion they did themselves?
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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #198 on: February 16, 2016, 09:59:49 AM »
Who all has a bike instead of the kit?  What are the favorites in the Ebike department?
I really enjoy my haibike xduro rx 29, I've found it for as cheap as $2,800 recently, while still very expensive(especially compared to converting your own bike), I think it's okay if you use it for your main mode of transportation (I sold my car to justify buying it, I paid $3,000)

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #199 on: February 16, 2016, 01:07:39 PM »
I inherited an Electra Townie bike which I still have not ridden. I have just started to look into using it. I have the feeling YouTube will be in my future. I carpool and my commute is over 35 miles round trip so this bike will not be used for getting to work.