Author Topic: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?  (Read 10281 times)

MrsK

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Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« on: February 18, 2015, 08:44:18 AM »
I read the blog about homeschooling with interest.  My kids are older so I don't have a horse in this race, but it struck me that so much about MMM is learning to get tough and self-reliant--grow your food, fix your own stuff, skip a few meals, etc.  Homeschooling certainly makes the parents flex their self-reliant muscles more as they now need to learn to be teachers.  But, what about the kid?  You now have created an entire environment that flexes to meet your child's preferences. 

This blog made me reflect on some of my teachers and my children's teachers.  So many good ones.  I learned piano from a very harsh woman and am very grateful for the discipline she instilled in me.  My son was a bit of a handful in the first grade and his teacher helped to set up boundaries that I had not.  He is now in 10th grade excelling at school, taking college level courses, playing varsity sports and is very popular and I have to say his path to success started with that teacher and his learning a little bit of sit down and shut up. 



Toffeemama

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2015, 09:22:22 AM »
It definitely depends on the parents a whole lot more, but my answer is no.  In fact, properly homeschooled kids can turn out with an extra dose of "grit", just by the nature of self-directed learning.  Kid needs to find out about ancient Rome, or the French Revolution?  Let's get to the library or the computer, so you can find out as much as you can!  You can have them do a search for relevant events on the subject, and figure out where they need to go and what they need to get from it.  When it's time to make friends, the child learns to put him or herself out there.  As a parent, you would have to stay on top of the child's needs, but it's more of a guidance role.

I guess you could say it takes "grit" to have learning shoved on you, and to be forced to rely on others to tell you the things you need to know.  But why not teach kids a different kind of "grit" that is taking their education into their own hands?

kathrynd

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2015, 09:42:57 AM »
Personally I don't agree with homeschooling any child  (there may be some exceptions for disabled etc ).

I don't know the facts surrounding the MMM child, so I am not specifically referring too him/them.

I think when  children are  around over achiever parents (and very bright) , they hear a lot of conversations.

Sometimes the attitude of parents towards school reflects on how a child will act in school.

They think rules don't apply to them.
They think every adult wants to hear what they  think, because their parents do.
The child may also be exceptionally bright, but school teaches more than school work.

They need to be able to interact with children and adults other than friends and family.
Some will be smart, less smart, come from a wealthy family or even a dysfunctional one.

To be able to follow rules, even if they don't agree or understand.
Need to shhh when you may be disturbing others.

Parents may think their precious child has great manners. Possibly do, when they are present, but maybe not, when parents  aren't around.
Having another adult discipline may be required.





Louisville

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2015, 09:51:53 AM »
Personally I don't agree with homeschooling any child  (there may be some exceptions for disabled etc ).

I don't know the facts surrounding the MMM child, so I am not specifically referring too him/them.

I think when  children are  around over achiever parents (and very bright) , they hear a lot of conversations.

Sometimes the attitude of parents towards school reflects on how a child will act in school.

They think rules don't apply to them.
They think every adult wants to hear what they  think, because their parents do.
The child may also be exceptionally bright, but school teaches more than school work.

They need to be able to interact with children and adults other than friends and family.
Some will be smart, less smart, come from a wealthy family or even a dysfunctional one.

To be able to follow rules, even if they don't agree or understand.
Need to shhh when you may be disturbing others.

Parents may think their precious child has great manners. Possibly do, when they are present, but maybe not, when parents  aren't around.
Having another adult discipline may be required.
I'm with you. One of the comments under MMM's post scoffed at the idea that a what their kid learned today was "how to stand in line". Well, kids (and adults) DO need to learn how to stand in line. Too often, when a parent says, "So-and-so is stiffling my kid's creativity" you can subsitute, "So-and-so is expecting my kid not to be a brat".
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 09:59:25 AM by Louisville »

AJ

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2015, 10:01:18 AM »
The child may also be exceptionally bright, but school teaches more than school work.

I would say if anything, school taught me that I don't have to try very hard and things will be handed to me in life. I could basically show up, sleep through class, skip the homework, then ace the test and to pass my classes. I learned that if you have to work for grades you're not very smart or doing it wrong. I learned that it's better to say what the teacher obviously wants to hear (even if it is wrong) rather than express original thought.

If school remains today like it was when I was there, I don't blame parents of bright children for wanting to homeschool. It was a great daycare, and may be a great place for average children, but for kids at the ends of the learning spectrum (both gifted and those with higher than average needs), homeschooling may be a better option. Learning to conform isn't always a child's highest need.

Toffeemama

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2015, 10:01:53 AM »
Is anyone really under the impression that home schooled children don't know how to stand in a line?  Or that line-standing is a pursuit worthy of 8 hours a day, 5 days a week?

Home schooling definitely isn't for everyone, and it doesn't guarantee well-socialized, above-average, independent-thinking young adults.  But neither does it guarantee bratty know-it-alls who don't know how to take turns and treat others well.  As though selfish, obnoxious adults who were raised in a public school never existed?

I think the point MMM was trying to make was that he'd rather his child spend the majority of his time exploring his interests, and learning as much as knowledge he can consume, than trying to "behave" and sit still.

MrsK

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2015, 10:44:47 AM »
Personally I don't agree with homeschooling any child  (there may be some exceptions for disabled etc ).

I don't know the facts surrounding the MMM child, so I am not specifically referring too him/them.

I think when  children are  around over achiever parents (and very bright) , they hear a lot of conversations.

Sometimes the attitude of parents towards school reflects on how a child will act in school.

They think rules don't apply to them.
They think every adult wants to hear what they  think, because their parents do.
The child may also be exceptionally bright, but school teaches more than school work.

They need to be able to interact with children and adults other than friends and family.
Some will be smart, less smart, come from a wealthy family or even a dysfunctional one.

To be able to follow rules, even if they don't agree or understand.
Need to shhh when you may be disturbing others.

Parents may think their precious child has great manners. Possibly do, when they are present, but maybe not, when parents  aren't around.
Having another adult discipline may be required.
I'm with you. One of the comments under MMM's post scoffed at the idea that a what their kid learned today was "how to stand in line". Well, kids (and adults) DO need to learn how to stand in line. Too often, when a parent says, "So-and-so is stiffling my kid's creativity" you can subsitute, "So-and-so is expecting my kid not to be a brat".

This. I have a friend who is constantly at odds with the school over her first grader.  She thinks her kid is gifted and spirited and that it is too much to ask to have him stand in line and learn manners at lunch.  I have spent enough time with this kid to know that he is never told no, he has no rules and nothing is expected of him. 

RunHappy

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2015, 10:48:22 AM »
I find it all very interesting. I can see both sides for homeschooling.  I don't think it would work for every child.  I would be interested in hearing from adults who were homeschooled.  What did they do after high school?  Do they feel it helped/hampered them? 

I only know 2 adults who were home schooled.  One is doing ok. He has a good job as an electrician, good family, etc.  One thing I have noticed, though, is he doesn't handle life's obstacles well.  The other, the verdict is still out on her.  She is young, was partially homeschooled, but became a very rebellious teen to the point of getting emancipated.  She is around 20 or 21 now, so she is still making her life path.

Kaspian

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2015, 10:55:14 AM »
I'm fairly sure that MMM and the Mrs. aren't those types of parachute parents who bubble wrap their kids and homeschool so that little Jimmy won't ever get teased in gym class or come in contact with measles or a peanut.  I believe this kid will have grit and then some!  Odds are that he'll be a 90% clever, tougher DIY-er than any of his peers.
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AllieVaulter

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2015, 11:05:41 AM »
Is anyone really under the impression that home schooled children don't know how to stand in a line?  Or that line-standing is a pursuit worthy of 8 hours a day, 5 days a week?

Home schooling definitely isn't for everyone, and it doesn't guarantee well-socialized, above-average, independent-thinking young adults.  But neither does it guarantee bratty know-it-alls who don't know how to take turns and treat others well.  As though selfish, obnoxious adults who were raised in a public school never existed?

I think the point MMM was trying to make was that he'd rather his child spend the majority of his time exploring his interests, and learning as much as knowledge he can consume, than trying to "behave" and sit still.

Exactly!  There are PLENTY of places to learn how to stand in line.  The grocery store, the bank, the slide at the park.  Do we really need to send children to an institution that specializes in "line-standing"? 

I teach at a university and a disturbing trend that I see is that students cannot ask questions.  It seems that there are several factors causing this:  1)  they don't have the self-awareness to know what they know and what they don't, 2) they don't have practice asking questions 3) they aren't interested in anything - not even their major!  4)  As soon as they encounter an intellectual struggle they give up.

The current model for school is "sit here and listen to what I say".  The student is completely uninvolved.  All the effort in this situation is provided by the TEACHER!  If we want learning (defined as long term change in knowledge or behavior) then the majority of students need to be putting in more effort.  Homeschooling is one way to make that happen. 

Another highly disturbing side effect of school is that people actually believe that learning only happens at school.  This is ridiculous.  Life IS learning!  People SHOULD be learning every second of the day!  Instead we condition children to think that learning only happens at one time, in one place, and it's SOOOO BORING.  After school is the time for play - facebook, xbox, TV, maybe sports if you're lucky. 

I was not homeschooled, but I know several adults who were.  One went to college where he was a collegiate athlete, placing 4th at Nationals.  He is also a highly gifted musician.  He is currently a successful engineer.  We still get together with some of our other college friends.  Another girl I went to college with ended up doing social work in other countries (Haiti is the only one I can think of specifically).  Another is working at Boeing. 

Amateur Mustache

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2015, 11:56:42 AM »
Hi all, adult who was homeschooled here.

Background:
I was homeschooled up until 9th grade when, due to family illness, I attended my local public high school. I had a great experience with homeschooling, and as a result a much better experience in high school, college and career.

I am of the camp that on balance kids of parents who invest time and effort are going to do great whether those kids are in public, private, or home school. However, no matter the school choice, one BIG caveat is that I strongly believe that it gets dangerous whenever parents' only passion is their kids. In cases where parents don't have any other hobby or interest and are living entirely through their kids, I think there is a much higher likelihood of helicopter parent syndrome, or trying to keep kids in a bubble, both of which can lead to lower 'grit.'

Advantages to homeschooling for me included:
(i) flexibility: ability to learn at a faster or slower pace as necessary, ability to participate in many more activities.
(ii) broader social opportunities: in addition to local friends and extracurricular friends, you can volunteer, travel, be part of multiple homeschool groups, go to camp, get to know more adults than if you were in school,… etc.

For context: While I was homeschooled, I went to band and art class at school, played sports, did girl scouts, participated in homeschool groups, went to camp every summer (before ppl get all fired up – scholarships are definitely available!), volunteered with the Red Cross, volunteered at an estuarine research reserve, and got to travel around the country via music scholarships.

Advantages to public high school for me included:
(i) access to science lab materials I might not have at home (liquid nitrogen, blow torches).
(ii) a couple absolutely fantastic teachers, and some pretty bad teachers. Obviously, I learned a lot from the great ones, but I also learned from the bad ones how to 'play the game.' We can discuss the value or lack thereof of this particular skill :-)

For context: By the time I was in high school, the fact that I had already developed some confidence, understanding of my learning style, and specific interests made the school years more fulfilling. I am sure it's possible I would have developed these in a traditional school setting, but I think it's easier with a small class size (1) and more time for extracurricular opportunities.

Respectfully,
Amateur Mustache

« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 11:58:18 AM by Amateur Mustache »

mxt0133

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2015, 12:01:45 PM »
Here is a survey of adult children that were homeschooled/unschoolded infer what you want from it, keep in mind it is a self selected group.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201406/survey-grown-unschoolers-i-overview-findings

 

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2015, 01:41:10 PM »

They think rules don't apply to them.
They think every adult wants to hear what they  think, because their parents do.
The child may also be exceptionally bright, but school teaches more than school work.

They need to be able to interact with children and adults other than friends and family.
Some will be smart, less smart, come from a wealthy family or even a dysfunctional one.

To be able to follow rules, even if they don't agree or understand.
Need to shhh when you may be disturbing others.

Parents may think their precious child has great manners. Possibly do, when they are present, but maybe not, when parents  aren't around.
Having another adult discipline may be required.
I may be feeding the troll, but I'll bite.  I'm not quite sure how to respond to such blind biases.  You should visit our home.  Your eyes will be opened to a great deal.

They think rules don't apply to them. I'm not sure how your home is structured, but we certainly have rules at home, and they apply to all of our kids.  Try telling this to my daughter who was in the car when I got a speeding ticket.  Since when are schools the only place with rules?
They think every adult wants to hear what they think, because their parents do. Our kids learn that Mom and Dad aren't always interested in what they're doing.  I would go mad if I had to express intense interest in everything our kids do.
The child may also be exceptionally bright, but school teaches more than school work. So does homeschooling.  Not only do our kids learn math, science, reading, spelling, and history, they also get music, religion, recess, social skills, home economics....the list goes on.
They need to be able to interact with children and adults other than friends and family. They do--they're involved in extracurriculars, go to church, and have lots of time to play with kids in the neighborhood.  Or did you assume that my wife and kids never leave the house?
To be able to follow rules, even if they don't agree or understand. See response to #1 above.
Need to shhh when you may be disturbing others. With a newborn, there's *plenty* of opportunity for this!
(learning manners) I'm sorry, but since when has public school been an shining example of a place where people have manners?
Having another adult discipline may be required. How is that different from normal home life?

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2015, 01:50:22 PM »
I find it all very interesting. I can see both sides for homeschooling.  I don't think it would work for every child.  I would be interested in hearing from adults who were homeschooled.  What did they do after high school?  Do they feel it helped/hampered them? 

I only know 2 adults who were home schooled.  One is doing ok. He has a good job as an electrician, good family, etc.  One thing I have noticed, though, is he doesn't handle life's obstacles well.  The other, the verdict is still out on her.  She is young, was partially homeschooled, but became a very rebellious teen to the point of getting emancipated.  She is around 20 or 21 now, so she is still making her life path.
I was not homeschooled.  I rather enjoyed going through public schools, or at least some aspects of it.  My experience was in many was similar to AJ's--I skated through my classes, sleeping, eating, doing homework for other classes...

Boy was my freshman year of college a wake-up call!  That first year of EE just about killed me.

MrsK

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2015, 02:34:35 PM »
Hi all, adult who was homeschooled here.

Background:
I was homeschooled up until 9th grade when, due to family illness, I attended my local public high school. I had a great experience with homeschooling, and as a result a much better experience in high school, college and career.

I am of the camp that on balance kids of parents who invest time and effort are going to do great whether those kids are in public, private, or home school. However, no matter the school choice, one BIG caveat is that I strongly believe that it gets dangerous whenever parents' only passion is their kids. In cases where parents don't have any other hobby or interest and are living entirely through their kids, I think there is a much higher likelihood of helicopter parent syndrome, or trying to keep kids in a bubble, both of which can lead to lower 'grit.'

Advantages to homeschooling for me included:
(i) flexibility: ability to learn at a faster or slower pace as necessary, ability to participate in many more activities.
(ii) broader social opportunities: in addition to local friends and extracurricular friends, you can volunteer, travel, be part of multiple homeschool groups, go to camp, get to know more adults than if you were in school,… etc.

For context: While I was homeschooled, I went to band and art class at school, played sports, did girl scouts, participated in homeschool groups, went to camp every summer (before ppl get all fired up – scholarships are definitely available!), volunteered with the Red Cross, volunteered at an estuarine research reserve, and got to travel around the country via music scholarships.

Advantages to public high school for me included:
(i) access to science lab materials I might not have at home (liquid nitrogen, blow torches).
(ii) a couple absolutely fantastic teachers, and some pretty bad teachers. Obviously, I learned a lot from the great ones, but I also learned from the bad ones how to 'play the game.' We can discuss the value or lack thereof of this particular skill :-)

For context: By the time I was in high school, the fact that I had already developed some confidence, understanding of my learning style, and specific interests made the school years more fulfilling. I am sure it's possible I would have developed these in a traditional school setting, but I think it's easier with a small class size (1) and more time for extracurricular opportunities.

Respectfully,
Amateur Mustache

Thank you for such a thoughtful response!  Obviously you have loads of grit and a can do attitude. 

RunHappy

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2015, 03:45:29 PM »
Hi all, adult who was homeschooled here.

Background:
I was homeschooled up until 9th grade when, due to family illness, I attended my local public high school. I had a great experience with homeschooling, and as a result a much better experience in high school, college and career.

I am of the camp that on balance kids of parents who invest time and effort are going to do great whether those kids are in public, private, or home school. However, no matter the school choice, one BIG caveat is that I strongly believe that it gets dangerous whenever parents' only passion is their kids. In cases where parents don't have any other hobby or interest and are living entirely through their kids, I think there is a much higher likelihood of helicopter parent syndrome, or trying to keep kids in a bubble, both of which can lead to lower 'grit.'

Advantages to homeschooling for me included:
(i) flexibility: ability to learn at a faster or slower pace as necessary, ability to participate in many more activities.
(ii) broader social opportunities: in addition to local friends and extracurricular friends, you can volunteer, travel, be part of multiple homeschool groups, go to camp, get to know more adults than if you were in school,… etc.

For context: While I was homeschooled, I went to band and art class at school, played sports, did girl scouts, participated in homeschool groups, went to camp every summer (before ppl get all fired up – scholarships are definitely available!), volunteered with the Red Cross, volunteered at an estuarine research reserve, and got to travel around the country via music scholarships.

Advantages to public high school for me included:
(i) access to science lab materials I might not have at home (liquid nitrogen, blow torches).
(ii) a couple absolutely fantastic teachers, and some pretty bad teachers. Obviously, I learned a lot from the great ones, but I also learned from the bad ones how to 'play the game.' We can discuss the value or lack thereof of this particular skill :-)

For context: By the time I was in high school, the fact that I had already developed some confidence, understanding of my learning style, and specific interests made the school years more fulfilling. I am sure it's possible I would have developed these in a traditional school setting, but I think it's easier with a small class size (1) and more time for extracurricular opportunities.

Respectfully,
Amateur Mustache

Thanks for your response!  Follow on question:  If you have children would you homeschool them?

Amateur Mustache

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2015, 04:25:58 PM »
Runhappy,

Thanks for your question! It's definitely not an easy answer, especially as I think it's always hard to say what one will or will not do with kids before one has them :-)

But here are a few thoughts.
First, I don't think it's a decision to be taken lightly. As I mentioned above, I think all parents need to have outlets for creativity that aren't just their kids. I think of it as a 'put your own oxygen mask first so that you will be better at assisting others' type of thing. Being around anyone for much of the time is not an easy thing, and there are great and loving parents for whom the time away from their kids enables there to be that oxygen mask: opportunity to do a job they love (or if FI, volunteer, build houses, etc).

Second, I think it's important to note how helpful it is to have a partner who is supportive and involved in the homeschooling process. In my case my parents took turns not working and staying home (which was also super cool I might add! And a 1 to 2 student to teacher ratio!). I am sure it is doable, but I expect much harder to do if one parent is not bought in. Similarly, while being a single parent is hard enough, being a single homeschooling parent is exponentially harder.

So on to my conclusions. Assuming I felt confident in my oxygen mask (and my spouse's oxygen mask), I would definitely very strongly consider homeschooling for the aforementioned flexibility and resulting ability to get involved in a wider range of activities. I think it's a great way to give kids a more personalized education, give them time & opportunities to explore their passions, and instill intrinsic motivation. Short answer: a considered yes.

Respectfully,
Amateur Mustache

« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 04:32:46 PM by Amateur Mustache »

ender

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2015, 05:23:38 PM »
I would love to be able to FIRE and homeschool kids with my spouse.

If anything, public schooling robbed me of grit - I can guarantee if my parents were responsible for my academic curriculum I would have had a heck of a lot more work than what my public school was...

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2015, 08:00:11 PM »
Runhappy,

Thanks for your question! It's definitely not an easy answer, especially as I think it's always hard to say what one will or will not do with kids before one has them :-)

But here are a few thoughts.
First, I don't think it's a decision to be taken lightly. As I mentioned above, I think all parents need to have outlets for creativity that aren't just their kids. I think of it as a 'put your own oxygen mask first so that you will be better at assisting others' type of thing. Being around anyone for much of the time is not an easy thing, and there are great and loving parents for whom the time away from their kids enables there to be that oxygen mask: opportunity to do a job they love (or if FI, volunteer, build houses, etc).

Second, I think it's important to note how helpful it is to have a partner who is supportive and involved in the homeschooling process. In my case my parents took turns not working and staying home (which was also super cool I might add! And a 1 to 2 student to teacher ratio!). I am sure it is doable, but I expect much harder to do if one parent is not bought in. Similarly, while being a single parent is hard enough, being a single homeschooling parent is exponentially harder.

So on to my conclusions. Assuming I felt confident in my oxygen mask (and my spouse's oxygen mask), I would definitely very strongly consider homeschooling for the aforementioned flexibility and resulting ability to get involved in a wider range of activities. I think it's a great way to give kids a more personalized education, give them time & opportunities to explore their passions, and instill intrinsic motivation. Short answer: a considered yes.
You're on the right track.  It's NOT an easy decision (nor should it be!).  My wife and I considered it for over 2 years before diving in.  She's a SAHM, so we didn't have to worry about work hours, but she does at times need a break from the kids :)

It's not an easy thing to homeschool.  It takes a huge commitment of time and energy on my wife's part, and since I'm the breadwinner, she carries the burden almost exclusively.  But the results have been wonderful.

Baron235

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2015, 08:34:51 PM »
Whether you homeschool or use public school, you give up something.  With homeschooling you get some benefits that you can't replicate at a public school and if you go to public school, you will get some benefits that you won't get at a home school.    In the end, I think for 99% of kids it really doesn't make that much of a difference.  For the most part, kids are going to end up where they are going to end up (assuming you have intelligent bright parents who are there for their kids).

Also, I do think MMM's FI does impact some of his kids issues.  He sees his parents have all this freedom and he expects it for himself.  If his parents, had to go to work, he may have a different view of it.  Not saying that is an issue.  I am just pointing out that issues like this could be a result of FI. 


RunHappy

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2015, 06:00:57 AM »
Runhappy,

Thanks for your question! It's definitely not an easy answer, especially as I think it's always hard to say what one will or will not do with kids before one has them :-)

But here are a few thoughts.
First, I don't think it's a decision to be taken lightly. As I mentioned above, I think all parents need to have outlets for creativity that aren't just their kids. I think of it as a 'put your own oxygen mask first so that you will be better at assisting others' type of thing. Being around anyone for much of the time is not an easy thing, and there are great and loving parents for whom the time away from their kids enables there to be that oxygen mask: opportunity to do a job they love (or if FI, volunteer, build houses, etc).

Second, I think it's important to note how helpful it is to have a partner who is supportive and involved in the homeschooling process. In my case my parents took turns not working and staying home (which was also super cool I might add! And a 1 to 2 student to teacher ratio!). I am sure it is doable, but I expect much harder to do if one parent is not bought in. Similarly, while being a single parent is hard enough, being a single homeschooling parent is exponentially harder.

So on to my conclusions. Assuming I felt confident in my oxygen mask (and my spouse's oxygen mask), I would definitely very strongly consider homeschooling for the aforementioned flexibility and resulting ability to get involved in a wider range of activities. I think it's a great way to give kids a more personalized education, give them time & opportunities to explore their passions, and instill intrinsic motivation. Short answer: a considered yes.

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2015, 07:41:04 AM »
I think public schooling robbed me of grit. It was too good a fit for my personality. I'm very compliant and test extremely well, so awards were heaped upon me. Then I graduated with no ability to design a task for MYSELF and complete it--no follow-through, no ingenuity, and an overinflated sense of my worth. (I got all the prizes! I must be the best!)

I would consider homeschooling my kids... but I like working part-time, so I don't know if it could work out. They are only 2 and 4 right now.
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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2015, 08:04:45 AM »
One leading (albeit really controversial) homeschooling voice say that School actually robs you of grit, because schools don't encourage to overinvest in their passions.

http://education.penelopetrunk.com/2014/03/21/the-latest-thing-education-reformers-agree-kids-need-that-they-cant-get-in-school/

I'm not sure that 100% agree with the line of logic, but I think that  no kid will be lacking in life lessons if they don't spend time in traditional classrooms, unless the kids are deliberately sheltered from all of life.

Personally, the desire to homeschool my son (and future children) is one of the reasons that I hope to become financially independent quickly, so there's that bias going into my response.

I will say that parents need to be cognizant of the message homeschooling (and especially unschooling) sends their kids, but that has more to do with parenting than schooling in particular. About 90% of the homeschool adults (adults who were homeschooled as kids) that I know are awesome adults, while the remainder are self-interested sluggards.


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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2015, 08:18:30 AM »
I think public schooling robbed me of grit. It was too good a fit for my personality. I'm very compliant and test extremely well, so awards were heaped upon me. Then I graduated with no ability to design a task for MYSELF and complete it--no follow-through, no ingenuity, and an overinflated sense of my worth. (I got all the prizes! I must be the best!)

Ha, this was me too and I don't think I've seen this point made before in all the homeschooling/public school discussions here. Although it was probably good for me to learn how to deal with being made fun of in elementary school... academically, college was a little bit of a rude awakening and grad school was a HUGE one.

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2015, 10:51:41 AM »
Overall I enjoyed the article. I am open minded enough to realize that my way is not the only way, and that kids can flourish in a wide variety of settings.

A couple of lines, however, really got to me. This was the main one: "The idea of a free public education for all is still a great one. In my school, at least a third of the kids come from families where the parents don’t seem to be putting much effort into their upbringing. Nobody is reading to them at home, or talking about science or teaching them a trade. There’s no Lego. The Xbox and the TV and processed junk food are the only thing going at these households, drowning out the chance to actually learn by creating anything for themselves."

It just rubbed me the wrong way. So very one-sided and close minded about how families are. We have Legos in our house, but our kids also watch TV and play video games. We read to our kids at least 30 minutes a day, but our kids eat Cheetos sometimes and one of our kids probably thinks chicken nuggets is a food group. It just led me to think that MMM had a lot of stereotypes running around in his head about how people actually live.

Plus I don't tend to judge people's parenting based on these semi-outward things. Good parents teach good values. They teach their kids to be kind, to value the ideas and thoughts of other, to realize that they are not the center of the universe. These things can be done even with a television or some "tablet time" like my kids get. If I see a kid eating White Castle right before a parent teacher conference (I have before), I don't automatically think "terrible parent." I more likely think of how frenetic life is these days, and in that case, they were carless and had to walk 2+ miles to the conference after work and probably stopped on their walk to get the kid dinner before they turned right around for the walk home.

Public schools certainly have problems, but I tend to give parents the benefit of the doubt and choose not to see the majority of parents I talk to as bad parents just because they have different values than I do.

One more thing: I can't stand the trope I saw in the comments to the blog post that the smartest kids in the classroom are oftentimes the most unruly ones. Yeah, whatever. It just sounds like a parent who wants to give their misbehaving kid a pass. A parent tried to pull that in my kid's daycare after the child was physically assaulting other two years olds. Apparently he was scratching and hurting other children, "because he is so smart."

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2015, 11:50:34 AM »
"Grit," manners, etc. have everything to do with parenting and not much to do with where the kid is schooled. If parents teach their child how to stand in line, how to take turns, how to behave appropriately, the kid will learn those things, whether he goes to school or not. If the parents let the kid run wild, never say no, and never require him to learn how to behave, the kid will be impossible, even if he goes to school every day.

I went to public schools, and I value public schooling, but not everything about it was so great.

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2015, 01:00:16 PM »
I have 3 kids. I think they have to go to school and its good for them. Not just for the learning but for the social interaction.

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2015, 01:10:58 PM »
Social interaction.
The cornerstone of the K-12 experience.

Love to see the rules for teaching this at school.
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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2015, 09:25:32 PM »
"Social interaction." Like the time someone threw a lollipop at my head and no one told me I had something stuck to my hair? Or the time I was sexually harassed on the school bus?

I'm not saying that there isn't value in the social interaction at school, just that it's a double-edged sword and that there are some disadvantages to throwing kids together in a big, forced, mixed group before they develop social graces.
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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2015, 11:59:22 PM »
Social interaction: because you met an awkward homeschooler, right?

There are some incredibly awkward homeschoolers out there, and there are plenty of painfully awkward kids roaming the halls of your local public schools. Who cares? If social interaction is a big opposition point for you against homeschooling, head to a mall or movie theater on a Friday night, grab a bench, wait for a gaggle of tweens to walk by, and ponder the value of social interaction at a traditional school.

I live a few blocks from a public high school and middle school, so lots of kids walk by my house every afternoon. I have oodles of nonscientific data. From my observations I have gathered that their socialization consists mainly in seeing who can use the f-word the most (and the loudest, a new category this year), gossiping about what phony drama is going on in the hollow romantic life of a fellow 12 year old, and talking about what they will blow their money on this coming weekend (Beats headphones? iPhone 6? New LeBrons?). How people consider this useless nonsense "essential" is beyond me. And this is just when they are actually walking. Remember hanging out before or after school....talking? When I jog by the kids waiting to go in or waiting for a ride, very few of them are actually socializing. Almost every single one of them is face down on a smartphone.

I regularly get texts from a 12 year old cousin from her classroom. She is done with class AND homework and the teacher is cool with them being on their phones. I don't think my cousin's class is unique in public schools. So maybe they aren't even socializing in school much anymore.

Disclaimer: Hops were involved in this semi-lucid post.


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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2015, 08:59:25 AM »
My original post was about grit, not really social interaction.  My point was that one of my favorite MMM articles is about how adversity helps kids.  Not doing things for them that they can do themselves, not making life too easy for them, not buying them out of boredom, etc. --this allows them to flex their own grit muscle so they can grow up to resilient adults.

In his homeschool article, it seems like the MMMs are creating a homeschool that centers around the kid in such a way that it eliminates (IMHO a lot of healthy) adversity.


EricL

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2015, 09:24:31 AM »
I was never home schooled and to a degree I agree with some arguments against it.  But I think the large institutionalized schools may give kids too much grit. 
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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2015, 09:48:53 AM »
In his homeschool article, it seems like the MMMs are creating a homeschool that centers around the kid in such a way that it eliminates (IMHO a lot of healthy) adversity.

Adversity can be a valuable lesson but there are various degrees of adversity that people can tolerate and cope with. They can either grow from it or fall into a sense of helplessness.  There is a concept called post traumatic growth which is the opposite of posttraumatic stress disorder.  The basic concept is people have various degrees of stress/trauma/adversity that they can tolerate.  If it is within their tolerance they can usually learn from it, overcome it and grow from it.  This is the growth part side.  If it is too much to bear and they cannot recovery from it then PTSD occurs.

That's why some people can grow up to be healthy and successful in a public school environment while some go on a shooting rampage in both extremes.  Most people fall in the middle.  The advantages of homeschooling is being able to vary the amount of stress/adversity for each student.  You can increase it by giving them gradually increasingly difficult tasks or problems, measure their response and adjust the difficulty accordingly.  This way you prevent either boredom, complete withdrawal, or outright destructive outbursts.

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2015, 09:04:16 PM »
I was never homeschooled, and to be honest, I was happy with my high school education. I liked going to school most of the time, and there were definitely some classes that I legitimately looked forward to! Varsity athletics, advanced placement courses, awesome manufacturing technology class. I loved it! And the social interaction (my high school had 1700+ students), was awesome!

So, when my sister started talking about how, "my kids are definitely going to be homeschooled! etc. etc." I was on the other side of the fence saying, "What the hell are you talking about!? Why would you even consider something like that!?"

Well, my sister is a stay at home mom, and the intention had always been there for her to be home with her children. For my sister, who definitely didn't flourish in school past grade 8, she had a different outlook on public education. Her children are 4(boy) and 6 (girl) now, and though the eldest is just starting 1st grade it's clear that she's well ahead of the curve. The boy goes to school two days a week (for speech therapy) and LOVES it. When the girl had classes at the preschool, she HATED IT.

I asked my sister what she plans to do when she no longer has the capacity to teach beyond certain subjects (math, science, etc), and she made it clear to me that the resources are available to make homeschooling successful.

My niece and nephew spend a lot of time with other children (three or four different families) and my sister makes a serious effort at raising well rounded kids. They follow the rules, listen well, are respectful and polite, and break the rules too! (Like most children will, wherever they are)

In the long run, I think it comes down to the quality of the experience that the homeschooled children are provided with. There is no reason why it can't easily be just as beneficial for the child as public schools are for the child, and vice versa. Not all children thrive in public schools. As long as the family makes the correct effort, why not?

I had 4 different friends that were homeschooled all of their education, and they are all just as well rounded as any of my other friends.

Does this mean that I intend to homeschool my children when we have them? I don't think so. My wife and I both really enjoyed school growing up, and so we don't have the non-positive outlook that other people might have. AND we're in a great school district currently, making it even less enticing. Of course, it will come down to a case by case study at that point. But I don't really lean one way more than the other, and I DEFINITELY used to think that homeschooling was NOT the way to go. Can't tell me that now though.
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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2015, 05:44:14 PM »
I was never homeschooled, and to be honest, I was happy with my high school education. I liked going to school most of the time, and there were definitely some classes that I legitimately looked forward to! Varsity athletics, advanced placement courses, awesome manufacturing technology class. I loved it! And the social interaction (my high school had 1700+ students), was awesome!

....

Does this mean that I intend to homeschool my children when we have them? I don't think so. My wife and I both really enjoyed school growing up, and so we don't have the non-positive outlook that other people might have. AND we're in a great school district currently, making it even less enticing. Of course, it will come down to a case by case study at that point. But I don't really lean one way more than the other, and I DEFINITELY used to think that homeschooling was NOT the way to go. Can't tell me that now though.
It's interesting--my wife and I followed a very similar path.  Both of us went through public schools and really enjoyed it.  And our kids started off in public school.  Once we had kids in the system, our perspective dramatically, if gradually, changed.

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2015, 06:57:44 PM »
Whenever people talk about "grit" I think about Alfie Kohn's "The Myth of the Spoiled Child." It's an interesting read. But that's slightly off-topic...

I was homeschooled PreK-12 (with dual enrollment 11-12th grade at a CC), as was my husband, and we plan on homeschooling our children as well. I don't think being educated at home by my parents robbed me of grit. The home is often a microcosm wherein lie all the adversities a child would face out of the home too. There were bullies in my home. There was need for quietness. There was need for orderliness. There were other adult authority figures aside from my parents. And so on and so forth. The home is not an island unto itself, and even the most tightly knit and isolated family is not immune to human nature. (Not that I'm in favour of homeschooling for the purpose of cultural isolation, I heavily disagree.)

I want my children to learn important life lessons and be able to healthily function in society, but those are top priorities in my parenting, not top priorities in my academic instruction. There can be some overlap, and naturally there is in public school, but perhaps MMM's point about homeschooling is that it separates the two to some degree which allows academic instruction to be more efficiently accomplished.

crazyworld

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2015, 10:47:32 AM »
To the thread's main topic - probably not.  There are enough situations in real life to teach you.  I think most of grit is something you are born with.

I finally read through MMM's post and all the comments...and I'd say that I am now somewhat less in favor of home-schooling than I was before.  It appears that the most home-schooled kids or their parents can say is that the child did well/is in grad school/PhD/has a great job/business etc. So at the end of the day, kids will become what they will, regardless of almost any external influence (short of dire poverty, abuse etc).  Folks going through public/private/parochial schools, are all also doing the same things as are the home schooled kids.  By definition, most of us are average, and home schooling is no guarantee of producing an individual that will do anything out of the average.  Lots of successful products from both environments.

That said, it would be nice if schools were a bit less focused on teaching everyone all kinds of advanced math & science (not talking about elementary curriculum here), and maybe have a more diverse curriculum.  Shop class, home ec, personal finance, trade/vocational training, philosophy, theater, public speaking etc.  Or if not that, then cut the time spent in school, so young people can follow their personal interests.  If educators have become dazzled by a few over-achievers in asian countries (and I am asian), they need to remember that the hard core teaching that goes on in a lot of asian schools, will certainly produce this type of result. But what of it?  For a few of these "top performers", there are 100's of non-performers - just like everywhere else.
Sorry, seriously off-topic...this was a very important post/topic for me personally.  I have an only child, a boy, loves legos, has had some issues at schools (both public & private), is anxious about tests - kind of like little MM.  Though I don't consider him gifted =)

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2015, 07:09:24 PM »
Hi Crazyworld,

What would make you more in favor of a given school option over others? Not trying to sound snarky at all, so please don't take it that way. I also tend to agree with you that parents who love their kids are generally going to do well by them, on average, no matter the school choice. (See my above comments for more on that). I was just struck by your comment that you are now less in favor of homeschooling, and I am genuinely curious for you to expand your thoughts on that. It strikes me that schooling generally is perhaps less strictly about outcomes (you cite grad school, jobs, etc.) and more about the ability to at the margin impact kids' ability to (i) expand on their interests and (ii) overcome subjects they may learn more slowly by giving additional attention/learning style options. Again not saying this can strictly only happen in a homeschooling context, but that this can be one good (and inexpensive) option for this. Curious to hear your thoughts.

Respectfully submitted,
Amateur Mustache

Sid Hoffman

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2015, 08:29:41 PM »
One leading (albeit really controversial) homeschooling voice say that School actually robs you of grit, because schools don't encourage to overinvest in their passions.

It goes along with a CGP Grey video (a youtube content producer) who is a teacher in England.  When asked what the one thing is he'd like to change in the world, he ultimately answered schooling, because the current model is designed around the notion that says if you are X years old, you will learn Y and will accept it at a rate of Z.  The material may or may not even be right or interesting to the students at their individual development curves, and even if it's right, it may not be taught at the right pace.

In a class of 30 students, the teacher basically has to just go at the rate the curriculum demands, which might be right for, say, 6 students.  For a dozen of them, you're going too fast and they don't actually learn the material.  For another dozen you're going too slow and losing their interest or squandering their potential.  This is especially true for the classes for which there is no honors alternative; you simply stick it out.

Further complicating it is the fact that there's a certain number of people for whom traditional schooling doesn't work or isn't helpful.  You look at many of the world's most creative and successful inventors and entrepreneurs and often they either didn't go to college or dropped out because it was a waste of their time.  Traditional schooling didn't work for me either and I effectively never went to college, yet I've been very successful in a demanding technology field as well as life-long learning on every subject that I can apply to my own life, and many that don't apply but capture my interest.  Put me in a classroom with a teacher and 20 students though and I flounder.  I hate that I can't learn traditionally, but I do my best to deal with it.

I'm not sure where we go from here, but I think education has the possibility of being the next great leap in society.  If we can engage and provide more individualized learning for every person, maximizing the use of creative human talent for all of society, not just the lucky ones that had the good fortune of being born with a brain that is well tuned to the current educational system.

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2015, 08:41:23 PM »
I think public schooling robbed me of grit. It was too good a fit for my personality. I'm very compliant and test extremely well, so awards were heaped upon me. Then I graduated with no ability to design a task for MYSELF and complete it--no follow-through, no ingenuity, and an overinflated sense of my worth. (I got all the prizes! I must be the best!)

Ha, this was me too and I don't think I've seen this point made before in all the homeschooling/public school discussions here. Although it was probably good for me to learn how to deal with being made fun of in elementary school... academically, college was a little bit of a rude awakening and grad school was a HUGE one.

+1
I learned how to play the game and answer the questions as required to get a good grade. I learned how to sneak under the radar and play sweet if I wanted to get away with something. Sit still, stay in line, speak up only when spoken to. Do as I say. Learn what I tell you to learn (and then quickly forget it after the exam). I wish I'd had an educational environment when I was young that fostered ingenuity, innovation, creativity, etc.

I was reading a lot about education a couple months ago and one of the things that struck me was the idea that the current education system over time tends to instill in children the fear of being wrong, therefore inhibiting any potential innovation or entrepreneurship. Obviously this isn't true for all children, but for me it rang very true.


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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2015, 11:50:08 AM »
Hi Crazyworld,

What would make you more in favor of a given school option over others? Not trying to sound snarky at all, so please don't take it that way. I also tend to agree with you that parents who love their kids are generally going to do well by them, on average, no matter the school choice. (See my above comments for more on that). I was just struck by your comment that you are now less in favor of homeschooling, and I am genuinely curious for you to expand your thoughts on that. It strikes me that schooling generally is perhaps less strictly about outcomes (you cite grad school, jobs, etc.) and more about the ability to at the margin impact kids' ability to (i) expand on their interests and (ii) overcome subjects they may learn more slowly by giving additional attention/learning style options. Again not saying this can strictly only happen in a homeschooling context, but that this can be one good (and inexpensive) option for this. Curious to hear your thoughts.

Respectfully submitted,
Amateur Mustache

Hello AM, it can be hard to condense one's entire thought process into a few words sometimes...my comment was specific to comparing the outcomes of home-schooling vs traditional schooling - and it appears (from this mostly anecdotal discussion), that outcomes are about the same with regards to what happened after school-age as the person went to college/work.  For sure, if you have the inclination and ability to teach your child, by all means do so.  And for some, it really may be a better way to go.  For parents who are not able to home-school, there are still many hours after school for their children to pursue their own interests.  And schooling covers a lot of ground - the whole of it should not be un-interesting for most people.  So I may not like math very much, but love literature (for example). Both are covered by schooling. And then I get to read literature at home after school, in summer etc. 
Other people may want to go completely old-school - maybe learning to run your family farm. Or, what I glean from reading old British literature - there were no schools - poor people had no education or prospects, rich people taught their children, or had a governess. 
I personally do not have a farm, am not independently wealthy, and my child as of now does not appear to be especially gifted or self-motivated; so in future, he needs to be able to do well enough to earn his living.  This could be accomplished by either traditional or home-schooling.  And I am (again, personally), not inclined to spend all my days being his teacher, mother, playmate.  That comes out sounding selfish, but its really not. I am happy to teach him at home as needed and love to travel with him, take him to concerts, museums etc, which is also all part of his education.

What would make me pick home-schooling over traditional?  Maybe if the child that was very gifted in one thing it would make more sense to me - like a gifted musician.  I would be happy giving him all the time in the world to his music and do very little of the rest of the curriculum. Or if the child was truly miserable in school and the school and I had tried many things and it just did not work.  My son has actually had something or the other come up over the years - started talking later, was still parallel playing while other kids were group playing, hard time with transitions, someone said his "executive function" was of concern after they did a screening, screened for ADD, had trouble making friends for sometime.  And yet, he grew out of all these things and now in grade 5 is just an average sort of kid.  I am fine with that =)

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2015, 03:00:14 PM »
Mustache friends, when schooling at the home I suggest adding 1 cup of sand per day to each child's diet. This same sand will then be deposited in your porcelain receptacle. Do this until the child can make their deposit without gritting of the teeth. Matter of fact, I recommend for all of the children, and should be part of every school lunch program.   
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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2015, 07:12:47 AM »

Hello AM, it can be hard to condense one's entire thought process into a few words sometimes...my comment was specific to comparing the outcomes of home-schooling vs traditional schooling - and it appears (from this mostly anecdotal discussion), that outcomes are about the same with regards to what happened after school-age as the person went to college/work.  For sure, if you have the inclination and ability to teach your child, by all means do so.  And for some, it really may be a better way to go.  For parents who are not able to home-school, there are still many hours after school for their children to pursue their own interests.  And schooling covers a lot of ground - the whole of it should not be un-interesting for most people.  So I may not like math very much, but love literature (for example). Both are covered by schooling. And then I get to read literature at home after school, in summer etc. 
Other people may want to go completely old-school - maybe learning to run your family farm. Or, what I glean from reading old British literature - there were no schools - poor people had no education or prospects, rich people taught their children, or had a governess. 
I personally do not have a farm, am not independently wealthy, and my child as of now does not appear to be especially gifted or self-motivated; so in future, he needs to be able to do well enough to earn his living.  This could be accomplished by either traditional or home-schooling.  And I am (again, personally), not inclined to spend all my days being his teacher, mother, playmate.  That comes out sounding selfish, but its really not. I am happy to teach him at home as needed and love to travel with him, take him to concerts, museums etc, which is also all part of his education.

What would make me pick home-schooling over traditional?  Maybe if the child that was very gifted in one thing it would make more sense to me - like a gifted musician.  I would be happy giving him all the time in the world to his music and do very little of the rest of the curriculum. Or if the child was truly miserable in school and the school and I had tried many things and it just did not work.  My son has actually had something or the other come up over the years - started talking later, was still parallel playing while other kids were group playing, hard time with transitions, someone said his "executive function" was of concern after they did a screening, screened for ADD, had trouble making friends for sometime.  And yet, he grew out of all these things and now in grade 5 is just an average sort of kid.  I am fine with that =)

Thank you Crazyworld. I appreciate your thoughtful response, and I think your approach makes a lot of sense.

RootofGood

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2015, 12:31:44 PM »
OP, yeah, you have a point. 

Part of life and growing up is dealing with difficult people, difficult situations, and those with differing attitudes and opinions. 

Some of those difficult people are in elementary school.  Some are students, some are teachers.  I figure my kids will eventually go to college and be exposed to these scary people who aren't necessarily nice or who might have divergent opinions.  They may even get a job where they don't always agree with coworkers, bosses, clients, and vendors.  Treat these obstacles as learning experiences and they aren't obstacles at all. 

That's my MMM take on it.  Although the bigger philosophy should be "analyze the alternatives and do whatever is best for your children given the schools they would attend and the resources you can throw at them if homeschooled". 
Retired at age 33 to spend more time with my wife and 3 kids.  2 years in and still loving every minute!
Sharing my thoughts on early retirement, finances, taxes, travel, and life in general at rootofgood.com

forummm

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2015, 09:07:38 AM »
You can structure your homeschooling environment however you like. Some parents do it to shelter their kids from the world. But you don't have to follow that approach. And you can also have them exposed to hard situations that build character. That will probably happen no matter what--life is just hard sometimes. But participating in sports, music, spelling bees, or other disciplines that require focused effort and adversity will provide a lot of what I think you're getting at. Just being around other children through team or group activities requires the development of grit.

Many homeschool families get together with large groups of other homeschool families, so social interaction can occur there too.

okonomiyaki

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #45 on: April 02, 2015, 02:25:32 AM »
I loved school - and I went to public schools for all of my education. I learned about, and was encouraged by, teachers, did well on tests, and was disciplined and behaved. I also had the chance to meet people outside of my parents' social circle and "class" - which I find really valuable, since for both Uni and grad school I was among a very small cohort of very high achievers (and, oh, yeah, I graduated both school and Uni with top marks - because I loved learning, and nothing could beat me out of it - and, no, public school did not try) - and now it's really nice to know people who are mechanics and tradies, not just white collar academics galore.

Also - getting teased and learning to deal with it. Really painful as a child; very useful as an adult who doesn't expect to be treated like a precious petal. Clubs and random activities in school. Passionate teachers. Learning to work with - and lead - people I don't like to get the job done.

Also, one of the best ways for people to learn (backed by research) is called peer learning, where by questioning and reasoning with each other a group of students gets to an answer together (and - potentially - finds more creative solutions to existing problems); you cannot easily have this in a homeschooling situation.

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #46 on: April 02, 2015, 04:01:17 AM »
Adult who was home schooled checking in here!

Ok first I am very surprised that there are people who think that is wrong for anyone to home school, while I think homeschooling gives some advantages I would never say that it is wrong for anyone to go to public school. The points against homeschooling be these people really had nothing to do with whether homeschooling was viable but rather railing against bad parents.

My expereince- I was home schooled up to grade 9 then went to high school and college. Being home schooled allowed a lot of freedom to travel and see the world which was great as it is kind of education you can't get in a classroom. I think the most important thing it taught me was to teach myself. I learned at a young age how to read and apply without having to have a teacher actually teach me. This really helped me succeed when I went to school because I wasn't dependent on a teacher to teach me, so I caught on to things very quickly even in subjects that I had never studied before. This gave me a clear advantage over all other students in my class who hadn't been home schooled and needed to be taught! I finished top of my class and went on to get a BS and an MBA.

All that being said I also thinking going to Highschool was also important for my education I strive on competition and that was missing at homeschool, I also enjoyed the increased interaction with peers. Of course this is just my own experience but for me I wouldn't have it any other way. a base of homeschooling then move on to normal school.

rosaz

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #47 on: April 03, 2015, 01:26:24 PM »
Also - getting teased and learning to deal with it. Really painful as a child; very useful as an adult who doesn't expect to be treated like a precious petal.

Public school kid myself, and my daughter's currently there as well, but the above line just put me on a thought tangent and I thought I'd post:

Is it just me or do we expect kids to routinely deal with stuff that we as adults would never tolerate? I can't say that I'm ever really teased as an adult - most workplaces would never tolerate that, and I simply wouldn't bother with the presence of anyone who did that anywhere else. Good natured jibes among friends, or the very occasional stray comment from a stranger, sure... but being forced, everyday, to sit next to someone who was deliberately cruel for their own enjoyment? What sort of adulthood are we trying to prepare them for?

And the teasing's just the tip of the iceberg... as a kid I was told I had to deal with sexual assault, stalking, threats of violence, that today would have me on the phone with the police straightaway. But it was ok then, because we were just kids (and this was at a tony suburban school, FWIW).

I guess some of the "tough love" arguments strike me more as "I paid my dues, so they should pay theirs", rather than thinking about what's actually best for the kids themselves.

JLee

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #48 on: May 04, 2015, 11:09:50 AM »
I think public schooling robbed me of grit. It was too good a fit for my personality. I'm very compliant and test extremely well, so awards were heaped upon me. Then I graduated with no ability to design a task for MYSELF and complete it--no follow-through, no ingenuity, and an overinflated sense of my worth. (I got all the prizes! I must be the best!)

Ha, this was me too and I don't think I've seen this point made before in all the homeschooling/public school discussions here. Although it was probably good for me to learn how to deal with being made fun of in elementary school... academically, college was a little bit of a rude awakening and grad school was a HUGE one.

+1
I learned how to play the game and answer the questions as required to get a good grade. I learned how to sneak under the radar and play sweet if I wanted to get away with something. Sit still, stay in line, speak up only when spoken to. Do as I say. Learn what I tell you to learn (and then quickly forget it after the exam). I wish I'd had an educational environment when I was young that fostered ingenuity, innovation, creativity, etc.

I was reading a lot about education a couple months ago and one of the things that struck me was the idea that the current education system over time tends to instill in children the fear of being wrong, therefore inhibiting any potential innovation or entrepreneurship. Obviously this isn't true for all children, but for me it rang very true.
Ya.

I find it ironic how, on an early retirement forum that promotes being different, thinking outside the box, and finding better ways to do things, there are posts saying that public schools are good because they force children to follow rules and 'do what they're supposed to do.' Isn't the whole point of MMM to buck the trend? Be different? Find better ways? Not follow "rules" that make no sense (work for 40 years and retire on social security)?

Find whatever option works best for your family and your situation - whether it's public school or homeschooling doesn't matter.

akstarr

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Re: Does homeschooling rob kids of grit?
« Reply #49 on: May 09, 2015, 07:12:01 AM »
I don't think homeschooling robs kids of grit, I think it makes more of it.

I was both, homeschooled part of the time and public school part of the time.  The "law" says you have to attend school, however there is nothing in that law saying you have to open your towel after shower in p.e. class to "prove " you took a shower. That was some messed up crap. This was in the 80's and that lady is still a teacher doing that crap with the full support of the school board.
You have to go to school, being naked in front off a teacher is not on that list. I loathed exercise until last year because of that. Did it give me grit? No it made me hate that shit. I loathe any type of physical classes to this day because of that.

My kids? Public schooled until at the point they were no longer getting an education. When my daughter has to spend her class time teaching other students and can't complete her work? Done. You aren't teaching my child, you are using her as a teacher assistant, she isn't learning, she is doing the job YOU were paid to do. That was not my 4th grade daughter's job. She was the to learn, not do the teacher's job for her. The learning my daughter had that year ? Zero zip nada. While I feel bad for the student who suffered when my daughter left, at point is enough?
Why should my tax dollars pay for my 4th grade daughter to tutor other students and not have any learning opportunities?

To whoever made the comment about discipline??? My kids went to school to learn, not for discipline. Parents should take care of that at home, so your demon spawn isn't disrupting the school. And if said spawn is ? Not my kids problem , and it shouldn't be up to my  child to correct such behavior. That falls on the school. My child(ren) have a right to their education, it's not on them to police the classroom, that is the job of the facility, not a child.

Funny story or not. I went for lunch one day.... While we were sitting there all of the sudden the lights went off in the cafeteria. I thought it was a power outage, my kids said no this is normal. Apparently the principal was trying to start a "no talking" during lunch policy. Can I mention there were no windows in this room? I called the school board, they said blah blah "discipline", I said what discipline, these are kids eating lunch.

After that I called the school superintendent who immediately got us all together for a happy meeting. The principal said she thought there should be no talking during lunch. I said really? prisoners in jail are allowed to talk why can't a bunch of elementary kids?
The worst thing about this? In a school of over 600 I was the only parent who even said a word about it. I was the only parent who paid attention. The principal is not longer there, the ACLU got involved. It was a frickin elementary school, not prison, don't treat it like that.

Now? My kids are homeschooled through a state run correspondence school. I have another graduate from high school this year and am very happy about that. Yes he has a state accredited diploma, not one mama made up on the computer.  Said son has also spent his senior year doing home renovations learning a trade , skills he will have forever.

As far as behavior and discipline? Manners learned young are manners learned well. Meaning it is a non issue here.  There was never an option for that to happen. They were taught at a young age to be polite, table manners, etc. If you grow up with it, it comes naturally. Gee when you teach your kids to say please and thank you from the get go it's a non issue.

Did my kids have a great time in public school ? You bet! Good option for them ? Yes. However over time priorities have changed and homeschool is now the best option.