Author Topic: Whole life policy - keep or cash out?  (Read 1151 times)

neophyte

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Whole life policy - keep or cash out?
« on: April 13, 2021, 09:12:21 PM »
Apologies if this is more of an Ask a Mustachian question than a mini case study. I recently found out I am the owner of a whole life policy my grandfather took out on me in the 80s. He paid the required premiums for the first 10 years, and then my parents took it over but stopped paying into it. My knee jerk reaction is to cash it out and invest it, but there's this annoying little voice at the back of my head saying "but it's guaranteed..." so I'd like to run it by the better minds here first.

Current value: $19664
Guaranteed interest rate: 5%
Fees: $27.70 /month (fixed fee - actually decreasing very very slowly. I'm basically earning $50/month on the policy at this point)
Death benefit: $360k
Benefit as far as I'm concerned if I'm dead: $0

Rough overview: 34, single, only dependants are a dog and cat, no plans for children. About $200k mortgage debt at 2.75% assets more than enough to cover that. I don't really see a need for me to have life insurance. Hopefully FIRE in about 6 years or so.

I should throw this all in Vanguard, right?

secondcor521

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Re: Whole life policy - keep or cash out?
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2021, 09:20:53 PM »
I would.

Read up on the "endowment effect" and see if it applies to you with respect to this policy.

You also may feel obliged because of the fact that it was given to you by your grandfather and parents.  I think this is understandable but also think it should not be relevant to your decision.

neophyte

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Re: Whole life policy - keep or cash out?
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2021, 01:23:07 PM »

Read up on the "endowment effect" and see if it applies to you with respect to this policy.
Thanks for the heads up. I'll look into this!
Edit: hahaha. I just looked it up. I was thinking this had to do with taxes or penalties or something. Nope. I'll just get rid of this thing then.

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You also may feel obliged because of the fact that it was given to you by your grandfather and parents.  I think this is understandable but also think it should not be relevant to your decision.
No worries there. Granddad's been dead for a couple decades now and my parents' approach was to stuff it in a drawer and forget about it.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2021, 01:26:50 PM by neophyte »

ysette9

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Re: Whole life policy - keep or cash out?
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2021, 01:42:09 PM »
I can’t find a good article off the top of my head but th white coat investor blogs and talks about whole life insurance fairly frequently. He says that buying whole life almost never makes sense but an old policy may make sense to keep. The reason being that all the negative returns are front loaded into the first 10-20 years, so something older may be an ok return on the money. You would need to look into the details of your policy to see.

jeroly

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Re: Whole life policy - keep or cash out?
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2021, 03:17:36 PM »
I can’t find a good article off the top of my head but th white coat investor blogs and talks about whole life insurance fairly frequently. He says that buying whole life almost never makes sense but an old policy may make sense to keep. The reason being that all the negative returns are front loaded into the first 10-20 years, so something older may be an ok return on the money. You would need to look into the details of your policy to see.

Whole Life policies are comprised of two parts - an investment and an insurance policy.  In the best case scenario, each part is 'best of brand' -

For the investment part, best case scenario = the investment choices are adequate (i.e. not outrageously high fees compared with other options), and the surrender charges have dropped off so that cashing in the policy does not result in charges beyond the usual (e.g. a $25 termination fee).
this part will be comparable to other choices like putting the money in your Vanguard / Fidelity / Schwab account, etc. and buying low-cost index funds.
If so, this part is not the problem (note: usually this is not the case - the expense ratios are high or interest rate paid low or choices of investment funds is poor, or a combination of the above..)

For the insurance policy part, best case scenario = the insurance charges are competitive.  However the OP says that there is 0 value to them in the insurance portion of the policy.  Since 'competitive' prices will be more expensive than $0, this part will be pricier than needed.

So they can definitely do better by cancelling the policy and transfering the cash value to a low cost brokerage where the usual investment advice can be followed (e.g. buy low ER index funds, use an appropriate stock/bond asset allocation, etc.) and manage it on a comingled basis with your other funds.


neophyte

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Re: Whole life policy - keep or cash out?
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2021, 10:22:54 AM »
Holy.... so, if I'm doing it right, investing $1000 annually in an S&P 500 index from 1987-1997 would have added up to around $100,000 by now.  (And I'm almost certainly not doing it right since 3 different calculators gave me 3 different answers. $100k was low end) YIKES!  I'm calling them up as soon as I press "post."

Edit: policy surrender paperwork submitted.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 11:13:46 AM by neophyte »

alcon835

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Re: Whole life policy - keep or cash out?
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2021, 03:51:14 PM »
Looks like you're all covered here.

I'll just note, there are a few reasons to keep a whole life policy - especially one purchased when you are very young - but you don't seem to check any of the boxes. Glad to see you're taking the cash and doing something better with those funds!

Goldielocks

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Re: Whole life policy - keep or cash out?
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2021, 05:43:09 PM »
It's been a while since I deep dived into insurance questions, and I wanted to use this post as a thought exercise.

This is not advice to the OP given:
-- the OP has cancelled it already,  and
--has zero need for life insurance, term or permanent, present or future, EVER, and
-- the "protection from creditors" benefit is low to nil if you are not in debt / not an entrepreneur, and
-- is not looking for another (expensive!) retirement vehicle with tax sheltering advantages
-- doesn't have a child you could roll it over to for their college costs on a tax preferred basis  and
-- is already an active investor that will do something better with the money to make it grow, not just spend it now. ​
-- Is not looking to extract cash temporarily (you have the option to keep it "invested" at 5% (minus insurance) and borrow against the premium.)

But mainly because OP had zero need or use for life insurance - large assets, no dependents,  doesn't care to leave an estate / donations, etc.

The other posters are correct, whole life is two products in one :
an investment product +  life insurance,
in a tax-advantaged, held outside of the estate, held outside of reach of creditors, product - typically with massive front loaded fees in the first 5+ years... although the fees can continue longer depending on how it is structured.



Investment
Am I correct to assume that this is considered to be approx $20k cash surrender value, with a guaranteed 5% rate of return?   

Then it earns at least $1k/yr.  maybe more  or -- at least 5% return, guaranteed -- which is a heck of a lot better than the ETF Bond market right now.

OR -- at death (assume age 86, life expectancy), Future Value will be at least $171,000 in 44 years, BUT!  it looks like 1/3 of the returns are funding the life insurance, so your return guarantee is only 3.5% if you don't value the insurance.  Still a bit better than ETF Bonds

If held until death, your actual death benefit of $360,000, represents a 6.8% guarnateed annual rate of return.  (death in 44 years).  Which is pretty damn awesome except you can't use the money after you are dead.

NOTE:
Today's cash surrender value may have a portion that is taxable and a portion that is not taxed... so you may end up with less upon redemption than $20k, AND you do have to pay taxes on the growth if you put it into a non-registered account. 

Note, the $360k death benefit is NOT TAXED.

Insurance


Let's assume you are approx 42 years old, male, nonsmoker and compare this insurance to the cheapest term insurance (that increases its rates every 5 years, guaranteed renewable, but not a fixed rate guarantee for your life).  Why?  Because that this the cheapest life insurance, especially for people who need life insurance for a while (10-20 years, while children are dependent and assets are low), but won't in future when their net worth is much larger, children are on their own.

Insured through whole life for: $360k, $27/mo x 12 = $324/yr
Rates paid at the company I use: $2.18/mo per $25k=$376/yr..  (If you were 46 to 50 this goes up almost double).

Cost of your insurance $28/mo x 12 = $336. 
On the face of it, these are very good rates for the insurance.  Especially if your monthly premiums never increase.

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One last thought..
My mother bought a tiny permanent life insurance policy when she had her first child, face value of approximately $14k, I believe.   She paid the tiny monthly dues (<$6/mo?) until the CSV equalled the face value, and received her letter "no more contributions are required" 35 years later.  Let's guess she paid $72/yr x 35 yr = $2520 in total.

The life insurance company offered scholarships to insurance owners, their children and grandchildren.   
Both I and my daughter each received $8k in scholarship money, (after the policy was 20 years and 45 years, respectively) for $16k total.  AND the $14k death benefit (and its Cash Surrender Value) is still in effect.

Assuming she dies in 10 years, her return on her $6/mo investment will be 5.7%, plus "free" term insurance for 35 years.

So, if you have whole life insurance, please check out the other member benefits... like student scholarships.
-------------------------------------
TLDR - check for scholarship benefits offered by your life insurance company.
TLDR - whole life insurance does not make any sense unless you actually need life insurance or have a very specific use case.   But if you do, then policies already held for more than 10-20 years may have already paid the high fees, and may be competitive with self-directed investing and purchasing term life policies.

GoCubsGo

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Re: Whole life policy - keep or cash out?
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2021, 12:38:13 PM »
FWIW- I'm digging into my parents whole life policies.  They have 3 which total $150K in cash value with AXA. 

Recently I sat in on my parents annual meeting with their financial advisor (they like him and I haven't been able to get them to leave).  He basically said not to tap it and didn't recommend cashing out and rolling it over to him (surprising).  His point was they don't need the money at this time and the guaranteed return is well above average.  From what I can tell the fees aren't huge.  Basically, he said keep it and if they need the money to pull from it, if not, it's a fairly large death benefit to either of my parents when they pass.

neophyte

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Re: Whole life policy - keep or cash out?
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2021, 08:17:31 AM »

Investment
Am I correct to assume that this is considered to be approx $20k cash surrender value, with a guaranteed 5% rate of return?   
Just popping in to answer. It seems to be, although the only paperwork I have is an account statement. 5% guaranteed didn't sound too bad to me.
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Then it earns at least $1k/yr.  maybe more  or -- at least 5% return, guaranteed -- which is a heck of a lot better than the ETF Bond market right now.

OR -- at death (assume age 86, life expectancy), Future Value will be at least $171,000 in 44 years, BUT!  it looks like 1/3 of the returns are funding the life insurance, so your return guarantee is only 3.5% if you don't value the insurance.  Still a bit better than ETF Bonds
After the fees/insurance it was earning about $600/ year. I think I calculated close to 3%. Which wasn't as exciting as 5%.

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Which is pretty damn awesome except you can't use the money after you are dead.
Yes, this part's a bummer.

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NOTE:
Today's cash surrender value may have a portion that is taxable and a portion that is not taxed... so you may end up with less upon redemption than $20k, AND you do have to pay taxes on the growth if you put it into a non-registered account.
Yes, they'll be withholding federal tax. I will owe state and maybe local. We'll see how much. They are supposed to be sending my mother a check here in a week or so. (Changing the address was gonna be annoying so I didn't bother)
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So, if you have whole life insurance, please check out the other member benefits... like student scholarships.
Huh. No idea and that ship has sailed. I would be sad to learn that I missed out on free college money back when I was in school though.