Update to "Buying a parent a home thread"

[EconDiva]

Hi everyone,

This is an update to the thread I posted in 2019 below:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/case-studies/case-study-buying-a-parent-a-home/

In summary, I have continued to have conversations with my mom about the prospect of buying her a different house to live in.  I have been bringing this up several times a year; I believe this year is my 3rd year trying to have conversations with her about it.  I have continued to get a lot of pushback from her with rationale that varied from attachment to the home, to not being able to afford another place unless it was fully paid for, to being overwhelmed with not knowing if the next place would be safe (as she mentions how God has kept her safe all these years in her current home).

Well, last night while doing random stuff at home I got this strong urge, almost a voice in my head out of NOwhere that said "you need to look into the status of your mom's property".

To make a long story short, a few minutes later after doing a search of court records I discovered the home she is in right now foreclosed in 2018, was auctioned off, and sold for $3100 in 2019.  After reading some of the documents to a friend of mine with more expertise than me, we both quickly/easily determined by what was written that she is in fact no longer the deed holder (USDA owns the deed).

I have a lot of emotions right now about this because I don't understand why she just wouldn't tell me.  And I have a ton of questions too (like, is this why she started paying for a storage unit last year when she wasn't working and couldn't afford to keep up with one?).  Besides being blindsided, I'm rather confused as well as she has alluded to requesting help to pay to fix some things in the house as recent as a couple of months ago.  Why even allude to requesting for help to put money into a home she no longer personally owns?

One of the last times I brought this subject of me getting her a new place, I mentioned to her that there were so many issues with her current home that I absolutely did not want to wait until this became emergent (such that I was potentially getting an urgent call to help due to her literally being out on the street or something).  Now it turns out the issue might be more urgent than I ever knew.  In short, I have no clue how she's been able to stay in the home.  I am going to speak to her about this at some point soon but in the meantime am going to try to make some calls to see if I can get info although I doubt anyone will give me any since I'd be calling about my mom.  If anyone has any insight on who I can contact, likelihood of what might be happening here (she rents the house from USDA now?; she's just been fortunate no action has been taken?), or in particular what you would do in this situation now knowing what I know...

...please do share. 

[EconDiva]

Just got off the phone with the attorney's office.  Of course, they could only confirm what I already knew which is that USDA holds the deed now.

They cited COVID as the primary reason eviction has not occurred yet. 

What I am trying to understand is what is a reasonable amount of time she might have left before they finally pursue eviction?  The attorney's office stated that it could be literally any amount of time-in one month or 5 years.  They stated I could try contacting the local sheriff's office and state this question to them generally (for a home foreclosed in that county in 2018, what do they think is the estimated timing eviction might be pursued?).  I 'could' be waking sleeping giants so to speak (thereby speeding up the possibility of eviction sooner instead of later) if I were to call them with her name and details of the case so it sounds like I should stay away from doing that.

Just as I have been worrying about for the past several years, I don't want to be suddenly contacted out of the blue with a call that I need to figure out how/where to house her.  Although I have been knowing in my heart for some time now that I would be faced with this type of decision, the circumstances under which this is now occurring is different than I thought (I originally thought [as per my original thread]) that it would happen due to sheer condition of the home).  Now that I know a foreclosure has occurred, the need for action on my part is more imminent that I ever knew prior to now and I'm trying to wrap my head around what to do about all of this.

[ysette9]

Wow, I’m sorry you are dealing with this. What a thing to discover!

Unfortunately I have no advice as I have never heard of such a situation. Being that she could be evicted anytime between tomorrow and five years from now it would be best to talk with her and set up next plans starting immediately. Ideally moving would be done on your (plural) terms and not when someone knocks on her door and tells her she has an hour to clear out because she is trespassing.

Good luck and sending strength. This doesn’t sound easy.

[BikeFanatic]

I remember that thread, Sorry to hear about the mess, my personal experience has been that older folks just hang in there until the last minute then reach out desperate for help. This is how it happen  in my family.

Instead of poking any bears, maybe broach the subject with her and start looking for a place. Tell her you are tired of her obstructioninst behaviors and it is time to take this seriously. Offer your love and financial support. Also I sympathze with your mother I imagine the prospect of leaving her home is just too har to face as well as the loss of independence being in finacial straits and having to rely on her children. Be gentle but firm. I also was able to bring in antoher relative to help with my mother
her sister was a big help at making her face her fears.
Good luck, let us know how it goes.

[reeshau]

I would say you are somewhat lucky it's USDA, and not a private landlord whose top priority is this house.  Have you looked at USDA's website to see if the property is up for resale?

https://properties.sc.egov.usda.gov/resales/public/howToBuy

I have no idea how much more, if anything, they would sell it for.  And buying it just brings you back to your old problem.  But maybe it would provide your mom some relief to finally listen to other options.

[EconDiva]

Wow, I’m sorry you are dealing with this. What a thing to discover!

Unfortunately I have no advice as I have never heard of such a situation. Being that she could be evicted anytime between tomorrow and five years from now it would be best to talk with her and set up next plans starting immediately. Ideally moving would be done on your (plural) terms and not when someone knocks on her door and tells her she has an hour to clear out because she is trespassing.

Good luck and sending strength. This doesn’t sound easy.

Well, the "tomorrow to five years" statement was just to say it could be any day (not that that's the real timeframe fyi).

Yes; I do have to speak to her about this soon (I will likely do it after we spend the Christmas holiday and allow for that time to be peaceful rather than bringing this up although it will be weighing heavy on my mind).  As I'm just finding all of this out I really don't know what to even suggest we plan for at this point yet.  Thank you for the well wishes.

[EconDiva]

I remember that thread, Sorry to hear about the mess, my personal experience has been that older folks just hang in there until the last minute then reach out desperate for help. This is how it happen  in my family.

Instead of poking any bears, maybe broach the subject with her and start looking for a place. Tell her you are tired of her obstructioninst behaviors and it is time to take this seriously. Offer your love and financial support. Also I sympathze with your mother I imagine the prospect of leaving her home is just too har to face as well as the loss of independence being in finacial straits and having to rely on her children. Be gentle but firm. I also was able to bring in antoher relative to help with my mother
her sister was a big help at making her face her fears.
Good luck, let us know how it goes.

I do understand that there is fear, anxiety, denial and all other kinds of emotions for her; I'm always torn because I'm super frustrated to know her plan seems to be to wait until it was so urgent that I would be potentially have to take action on very limited notice.  I'm mostly hurt.

But anyways, yes, I 'may' be inquiring for other support.  It is unlikely but it's at the point where it may happen.

[EconDiva]

I would say you are somewhat lucky it's USDA, and not a private landlord whose top priority is this house.  Have you looked at USDA's website to see if the property is up for resale?

https://properties.sc.egov.usda.gov/resales/public/howToBuy

I have no idea how much more, if anything, they would sell it for.  And buying it just brings you back to your old problem.  But maybe it would provide your mom some relief to finally listen to other options.

Thank you for posting this.  I checked the site and there are only like handful of homes posted nationally; none in SC at all unless I missed something. 

You make a good point that me purchasing the home brings me back to all of the original problems; I am not sure that even if it was an option if would be worth doing that or not.

[SunnyDays]

I read through your previous thread, and this one, and have the following thoughts on the situation:

The hoarding has been a long-term issue and isn't likely to be fully resolved.  The best you can hope for is for things to improve to some degree.

Your mother must be the one to request serious help.  So far she hasn't, in spite of rather desperate living conditions.  Her mention of going to therapy didn't happen because she wanted it on terms (you going with her) that she probably knew would not work, so it was a hollow gesture on her part.

She is only 60, so still pretty young, although she might feel/look older due to unaddressed health issues and unhygienic environment.  So she has a lot of years to work and also to struggle with her hoarding.  You'll be in it for the long haul.

She has already lost her house even though she still lives there, and buying it back would be costly and pointless, even if you fixed it up, because she would just continue to destroy it, so you would get no return on your investment.  Except for the roof over her head, she is already living like a homeless person.  As soon as she is evicted, she will be homeless and at that point will have to decide what to do.  Because she is still a competent adult, this will ultimately be her decision.  All you can do is wait for her to ask you for help.  Before that time, you can decide what exactly you're willing to offer her.  The best solution, in my opinion, is to top up her rent, if necessary, on either an apartment or a long-term hotel rental and help her move.  This has the advantage over a house in that it's more economical and she would have external constraints on her hoarding (less space to hoard and greater consequences if she does).  A short-term, stop-gap measure if there is a sudden eviction could be to rent a room from a friend. Any of these options would make it easier for you to manage if/when that time comes.

You may be able to stall a while longer, until she turns 62, as I believe that is when SS kicks in, no?  That extra income will allow her more options than right now.  In the meantime, press for some form of therapy for her.  Her willingness, or not, to pursue this will let you assess how much investment she will make in fixing her situation.  Make it clear that the more she does for herself, the more you will do for her.

I understand your anxiety about the whole situation, but sometimes, all you can do is let the SHTF and pick up the pieces afterward.  But don't compromise your own life to do so.  Whatever you do, you likely won't get any gratitude for it, but only complaints about it not being the right thing.  So be prepared for that.  Best of luck.

[CrustyBadger]

@EconDiva, I read your first case study when you posted it, but didn't have any bright ideas to suggest at the time.

You said then that your mom had no running water at her house.  Do you know if that is still the case?  And when was the last time you visited her at her home to see the extent of the hoarding situation?

There is an extremely compassionate documentary about hoarders on Amazon Prime called Beyond Hoarding, if you haven't seen it yet I suggest you do.   If you mom is a hoarder and hasn't been getting treatment, and already was at the stage where she had not running water, chances are great that things have gotten even worse since last year.

I do not think buying your mom a new house to move into is a good idea.  Full blown hoarding can really damage houses.  I would try to find her an apartment and help her get treatment for her hoarding.  I don't know what to do about the stuff in her house.  Renting storage for all her items is a really bad idea.  That's just relocating the hoard.

[Frankies Girl]

I'm so sorry the news isn't better. I had hoped your mother might have started therapy or reached out for help on her own, but it appears she's still in deep denial and in the grips of serious mental illness.

The fact that the house was foreclosed on and then sold for ~$3K is telling. The property owners likely bought up LOTS of condemned properties with the intent of selling them on for developers (selling for land value and expect the house is a total loss) and they may not even realize there IS someone living in the house, especially if there are no utilities in service at that address. She's basically what appears to be a hold-over tenant or even outright squatter at this point, so if the owners were aware the house was occupied, they likely would take steps to remove her.

In the case of her losing the house and impending eviction, since there has been an eviction moratorium pretty much the whole year due to COVID, she has in a way been able to avoid dealing with reality longer than usual, but she's fast approaching being homeless because she's refusing to actually deal with the matter and take action. As she is in her 60s, it may be time to call the county elder/social services to ask about what options are available for a hypothetical relative. You likely could speak to a social worker and ask them what is involved with doing a welfare check on her and her living conditions (and whether you can ask for a check anonymously).

I could see as a less extreme measure of calling and telling her that you are aware she's been foreclosed on, and ask her what her plans are. Plainly, but with compassion explain she's running out of options and that while you are there, and love her, and will do what you can, she's putting herself in unnecessary trouble and causing you serious worry besides. Do not entertain the delusions; facts, truth, options that are based in reality, but with compassion. It's a hard road, but might get through to her eventually.

But. The amount of stress and worry and dealing with a stubborn, angry and deeply delusional hoarder is so... draining and frustrating and mostly futile if they're unwilling to accept help offered I agree that it may be in your best interests to just wait her out and let her deal with what comes and step in if/when she actually asks. She knows you love her, and offered help in the past and how to contact you. Reach out to check in regularly, but just as a reminder: I am worried about you and your living situation. Your current conditions are not normal or safe and you don't have to live like this. I'm here, and I love you, and I can help you if you want it.

This is all just such a burden and scary and heartbreaking. Untreated mental illness is such an absolute tragedy.

[reeshau]

I would say you are somewhat lucky it's USDA, and not a private landlord whose top priority is this house.  Have you looked at USDA's website to see if the property is up for resale?

https://properties.sc.egov.usda.gov/resales/public/howToBuy

I have no idea how much more, if anything, they would sell it for.  And buying it just brings you back to your old problem.  But maybe it would provide your mom some relief to finally listen to other options.

Thank you for posting this.  I checked the site and there are only like handful of homes posted nationally; none in SC at all unless I missed something. 

You make a good point that me purchasing the home brings me back to all of the original problems; I am not sure that even if it was an option if would be worth doing that or not.

Sure--I have no background in these transactions, but when you mentioned a government owner I thought there must be some process for disposal, and it is likely public in some way.

There are a few other sites that do have SC listings, although many seem to be commercial repackaging of public data.  But if It's not in one place, aggregation is a legitimate service.  You may also try looking here:  https://www.hudhomesusa.org/welcome.html

Even if you don't want to buy it yourself, if you do find it, it could help you keep tabs on the process.  i.e. when it goes off listing.

[EconDiva]

I read through your previous thread, and this one, and have the following thoughts on the situation:

The hoarding has been a long-term issue and isn't likely to be fully resolved.  The best you can hope for is for things to improve to some degree.

Your mother must be the one to request serious help.  So far she hasn't, in spite of rather desperate living conditions.  Her mention of going to therapy didn't happen because she wanted it on terms (you going with her) that she probably knew would not work, so it was a hollow gesture on her part.

She is only 60, so still pretty young, although she might feel/look older due to unaddressed health issues and unhygienic environment.  So she has a lot of years to work and also to struggle with her hoarding.  You'll be in it for the long haul.

She has already lost her house even though she still lives there, and buying it back would be costly and pointless, even if you fixed it up, because she would just continue to destroy it, so you would get no return on your investment.  Except for the roof over her head, she is already living like a homeless person.  As soon as she is evicted, she will be homeless and at that point will have to decide what to do.  Because she is still a competent adult, this will ultimately be her decision.  All you can do is wait for her to ask you for help.  Before that time, you can decide what exactly you're willing to offer her.  The best solution, in my opinion, is to top up her rent, if necessary, on either an apartment or a long-term hotel rental and help her move.  This has the advantage over a house in that it's more economical and she would have external constraints on her hoarding (less space to hoard and greater consequences if she does).  A short-term, stop-gap measure if there is a sudden eviction could be to rent a room from a friend. Any of these options would make it easier for you to manage if/when that time comes.

You may be able to stall a while longer, until she turns 62, as I believe that is when SS kicks in, no?  That extra income will allow her more options than right now.  In the meantime, press for some form of therapy for her.  Her willingness, or not, to pursue this will let you assess how much investment she will make in fixing her situation.  Make it clear that the more she does for herself, the more you will do for her.

I understand your anxiety about the whole situation, but sometimes, all you can do is let the SHTF and pick up the pieces afterward.  But don't compromise your own life to do so.  Whatever you do, you likely won't get any gratitude for it, but only complaints about it not being the right thing.  So be prepared for that.  Best of luck.

I agree RE: letting her be the one to approach me for help.  Actually, the last time I brought up the house situation weeks ago, I told her we'd had so many conversations about it and that I know the issue isn't going away but as it is clear she does not want to take action, I pressed upon her that I am here for her and I need 'her' to come to 'me' when she's ready to do something.  She agreed.  I was just getting to the point of tiring of bringing up the topic at the time.

Also, she turned 62 a few weeks ago as my original thread was from last year prior to her turning 61 fyi.  I haven't discussed SS with her other than stating that she needs to consider forgoing it for now (I believe she's estimated to get $700 monthly at age 62; it's closer to $1200 if she can wait a handful more years-these are estimates I pulled from her statement several years ago though so need to look into this). 

You have made some great suggestions and I appreciate your input.  Today I am feeling moreso that I won't mention anything when I go home to see her over Christmas.  Maybe my mind will change about that but for right now, that's how I'm feeling.  I'm feeling like I need to just take a step back, 'try' to not worry so much and instead just pray and continue to set aside money knowing that one day sooner rather than later I will have to employ funds to helping her.  I don't feel today that paying for two places is feasible so if I were to make a decision today I'd be looking at getting a place for the both of us.  Yet I know we might drive each other a bit crazy in that scenario so overall, I feel right this moment isn't the time to execute any plans as I'm not in the headspace to make the best decision right now.  Rather, time is likely better spent weighing options; if indeed the eviction moratoriums are extended then there will 'likely' be time for me to mull over all of these things. 

Your last statements about "letting the SHTF" is exactly how I felt about things waking up this morning as I wouldn't even necessarily know what to plan for if making decisions right now at this moment anyways.

[EconDiva]

I think that there have already been a few posters mentioning therapy which I have been pushing for for quite some time now.

So while I'm thinking about it I should mention that last it was brought up a few weeks ago over Thanksgiving, she stated she had already been to the local Community Action center for info on therapy services and that due to COVID they aren't doing in person appointments.  I had no clue she'd been checking in with them to see when she could start services as she hadn't told me that.  She proceeded to say that it will be her first stop once their services are back up as normal which I was shocked to hear.

So she does really 'seem' to be in a place right now where she is actually finally willing to take the action of seeing a therapist fyi, although it has been a long road of just getting to this point where she seems to have the genuine desire to go.

[EconDiva]

@EconDiva, I read your first case study when you posted it, but didn't have any bright ideas to suggest at the time.

You said then that your mom had no running water at her house.  Do you know if that is still the case?  And when was the last time you visited her at her home to see the extent of the hoarding situation?

There is an extremely compassionate documentary about hoarders on Amazon Prime called Beyond Hoarding, if you haven't seen it yet I suggest you do.   If you mom is a hoarder and hasn't been getting treatment, and already was at the stage where she had not running water, chances are great that things have gotten even worse since last year.

I do not think buying your mom a new house to move into is a good idea.  Full blown hoarding can really damage houses.  I would try to find her an apartment and help her get treatment for her hoarding.  I don't know what to do about the stuff in her house.  Renting storage for all her items is a really bad idea.  That's just relocating the hoard.

Definitely still no running water.  Also, she hasn't worked since around May of this year.  I personally think work for her will continue to be very spotty the older she gets and the longer she goes without therapy to treat the depression and other issues going on (although I'm hopeful therapy will start in 2021). 

The last time I visited was when I mentioned in the original thread so sometime first half of 2019.  Past 15 years-ish I've only been visiting 1-2 times a year because I can't stay overnight anymore and also, I would always have an immediate depressive episode right after each visit due to the progressive worsening.  So I know things are getting worse as I've seen it progress and am the only one in the family who has really laid eyes on things.  I will however definitely check out that documentary; thanks for mentioning!

Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting she get a storage unit.  She already has one.  I know because when she lost her job earlier this year she asked to use the credit card I have her on as an authorized user on to pay for some things (we agree that she requests to use it before using if the amount is over a certain amount and it's not emergent).  When I checked the statement I found she had made a payment on a storage unit and when we spoke about it she said she had obtained for well over a year prior.  So she didn't tell me about it and had one for quite some time; I didn't say much because I know hoarders will get storage units to continue hoarding but now I realize she likely obtained one to start moving over her 'most' prized items..at least that's my thought because the timing I recall her stating she got the unit now matches up with the timing of when the home had been auctioned off.  It also makes sense now why she got a PO Box a few years ago; could never figure that one out but so many things are starting to make sense now.

[SunnyDays]

Would you be willing to pay for some private psychology sessions for her?  I'm sure there would be something offered virtually or by phone if she has the ability to do that.

Also, if at some point, you decide that something just has to be done, you could contact the local health inspectors or fire department and they would probably condemn the house and lock her out.  Drastic measure, but it's an option.

[DaMa]

Thank you for the update and sharing your experiences!  I have no advice, but may be in a similar situation some day. 

[six-car-habit]

 I would be suspicious of her statement that she visited the community action center, to ask for help, but was turned down due to Covid / no appointments available.  She's possibly set up a plausible lie to tell you, so that she need not continue that strand of the discussion.  It's just too convienent.
    Are you believing they wouldn't offer their services over the phone ?   Are phone appointments taboo ?  No, its a plausible lie, based on factors beyond her control [ Covid] , that is easy to pass off as truth under the umbrella of - "people can't meet in person because of pandemic, therefore I have to put off, again, seeking help."

 I went back and looked at the old thread. She was being decieving back then about the house issues.  You now know , definitively, that she didn't use her inheritance to pay off the mortgage [ back then you thought it was possible ]

  Are you really going to be able to sit there with her at X-mas , knowing that she in fact has no lawfull interest in the house, it is owned by someone else, and she could have the eviction process happen at any day in the future, and say nothing in the interest of peace and goodwill. ?

   The Best present you can give her is to tell her you know about USDA auctioning off the house.  If you can't bear to say it, write it in a X-mas card, which you hand to her as soon as you arrive.   Then let the chips fall where they may.  Re-state your offer to help when she is ready for help [ and ready to be honest].

[Peony]

Following. I have an adult child with untreated mental health problems and addiction. While not the same it sounds like both situations create a lot of the same worries.

[Metalcat]

One thing I had to learn with my mom was not to be hurt by her behaviour. You may recall from your previous thread that I was in a similar situation with my mom, just nowhere near as bad.

My baby brother actually gave me clarity on this when things were at their worst, and I had lost a lot of money due to her refusing to get her affairs in order to help me bail her out.

He pointed out that if she was capable of acting in a way that would spare me harm in this situation, she would have been able to spare herself.

Of course she's going to hurt you in this, the only behaviour she knows is enormously damaging. If she was capable of behaving reasonably about this for you, she would have done so for herself. She's not being hurtful to you, she's being what she considers to be normal. Actually cooperating with you, actually preventing the situation from being worse is so foreign to her, it would make no sense.

This is her normal. If you get involved in her normal, you will get injured because that's what her normal does.

As I said previously, unless this is a situation where you should really have a conservatorship over her, then you should not be stepping in to try and fix this, even when she loses her house.

If she's at all mentally competent, she may need to hit rock bottom before she's capable of seeking real help and being willing to let go of her self destructive behaviours.

These are choices she makes, she's not powerless here. She's made many series of choices that have provided highly predictable outcomes. In a very real, and very sick way, this is the life she wants. I know that's almost impossible for you to understand, but it's true. That's why she protects it.

I used to think people hid this stuff because they were ashamed, but that's only part of it. If that was all, they would welcome help when someone found out. But they don't, they keep hiding, they bury it further into secrets. They are actually afraid or having that life taken away from them.

You MUST try to understand that point. She is trying to protect this life she has made for herself FROM you. Until you truly grasp that, you will keep running into brick walls and you will keep being surprised and hurt by her behaviour.

Until the pain of her life choices hurts enough to break whatever addiction she has to this behaviour, no amount of help you provide will actually help her. It will only drag you down into the mess with her.

She has to want out. Badly.
Clearly she doesn't.
She's been willing to go without running water for years in order to maintain her lifestyle, it's *that* important to her.

Maybe being evicted will be rock bottom enough for her to finally be ready for meaningful help and change, but it might not be, and you need to be prepared for that.

I strongly recommend you make a plan for a temporary living situation for her, because that's a very reasonable help to give to a mother in need, but don't commit to a longterm housing arrangement that you are on the hook for. That's not a reasonable or mentally healthy support at this time.

Unless or until you are convinced that she is committed to doing meaningful psychological work, then make your help very, very temporary.

That's what we mean when we say you can't help her unless she wants to help herself. She doesn't want to be rescued from her life. Until she does, you can't do anything to help her.

Perhaps rent her a furnished room somewhere safe for 3-6 months so that she can figure out how she wants to move forward, because she really does need to be the one to decide that. If she's still unwilling to be proactive in changing her own life, then she's going to have to hurt more until she's ready.

Enabling her is the worst thing you can do for her AND for yourself.

Lastly, I recommended before that you seek your own counselling to help you process the very complicated emotions of this process. The only way you will be able to make responsible choices is if you can think clearly through the intense feelings and reactions, and sometimes that requires and objective expert to help. I knew I was doing something stupid when I started avoiding the topic with my therapist. I did it anyway, but at least I was aware of it, and that helped me pivot quickly when I finally admitted to myself that my help wasn't helping.

If you want a bit of hope though, my mom is doing really well. After decades, she turned a huge corner, has her finances far more in order, has applied for and received government support, and has fixed critical problems in her house to prepare it for sale. She seems FINALLY sick of her self destructive life and ready to move on to something healthier.

Why? Because of my help?
Hell no.
Her breaking point was losing my support. She finally felt like she had no options, and had to take a long hard look at the life she had been protecting, and decided for herself that it wasn't worth it.

Is she handling everything optimally? Oh goodness no, but now she asks for my advice, not for my money.

[EconDiva]

Would you be willing to pay for some private psychology sessions for her?  I'm sure there would be something offered virtually or by phone if she has the ability to do that.

Also, if at some point, you decide that something just has to be done, you could contact the local health inspectors or fire department and they would probably condemn the house and lock her out.  Drastic measure, but it's an option.

I am willing to pay for therapy/teletherapy. 

I had a teletherapy appointment with my therapist (a former social worker) yesterday who gave some suggestions regarding offices to reach out to locally to try to see resources for therapy for my mom so I will be making a few calls today.

I am trying to avoid for now doing anything that would potentially accelerate the eviction process fyi.

[Metalcat]

Would you be willing to pay for some private psychology sessions for her?  I'm sure there would be something offered virtually or by phone if she has the ability to do that.

Also, if at some point, you decide that something just has to be done, you could contact the local health inspectors or fire department and they would probably condemn the house and lock her out.  Drastic measure, but it's an option.

I am willing to pay for therapy/teletherapy. 

I had a teletherapy appointment with my therapist (a former social worker) yesterday who gave some suggestions regarding offices to reach out to locally to try to see resources for therapy for my mom so I will be making a few calls today.

I am trying to avoid for now doing anything that would potentially accelerate the eviction process fyi.

Very happy to hear you have your own therapist. I couldn't remember and didn't reread the entire old thread.

[EconDiva]

@Malcat -

Your post was so helpful to read; thank you for responding to my update.

I do want to express that the very first day I found this out I was in "action mode".  In other words, "What do I do?" "Where will a get a place for her or us to live now?"  "How quickly can I move her out?"

It only took overnight before (and I mentioned this somewhere upthread^) I woke up the next morning feeling very differently.  The past few days I have mulled over all of the times action has been taken to financially 'bail' her out of much smaller situations.  At one point a few years ago, she even expressed to me that although she is very happy and grateful I've always been there for her, that  I need to realize that some things are for her to handle alone in order to stop me from enabling her.  I was in denial about me enabling honestly; her father used to the be one saving her and now perhaps I am.

Maybe 10 years ago or so, I asked her father/my grandfather (now deceased) way back then any advice he had for me about the troubling housing situation.  He told me back then that it was a ticking timebomb and that he knew he would no longer be around when it exploded.  He said he was sorry for me because he could see that everything would potentially fall on me to handle, and that really the only advice he could offer was this:  Do not harbor unhealthy emotions (specifically anger) as a result of the situation; particularly against anyone else who chooses not to help me in helping her.  (Honestly he was passively referring to my brother.)  But what he said is coming to pass; although I am a bit hurt and frustrated I can't genuinely say I'm that shocked (or angry).  She hasn't been taking care of herself for a long time and no amount of nicely asking or pressure from me has resulted in her changing her behavior such that she has been willing to be open and communicate with me about so many important things.

I have been in therapy myself for ~15ish years off and on.  I have a regular therapist that I do bring this situation up with from time to time actually so we have spoken about this before and will continue to; I personally 'know' that I need therapy and (just recently, combined with spirituality) it is giving me the support I need to be as emotionally healthy as I can during times like these. 

I am so very encouraged by your story; it gives me a bit of hope to hear how much progress your mom made.  I am so happy to hear that; great for her!  I don't know what is the future for my mom, but I want to express that right now I am totally in alignment with what you stated meaning that I now agree she needs to hit rock bottom.  This is in essence why I recently mentioned upthread I am now considering not telling her I even know; I'm at a point today where I feel like I should indeed just 'let the chips fall where they may'.  Rather than stress about it and try to execute a plan and save the situation, just figure it out when the "ticking timebomb truly explodes" so to speak.  Like you said I can put her somewhere temporary (I even thought that when the call comes, maybe she finds a friend to stay with until I find a place, or I put her in an AirBnb or something...I don't know).  Bottom line is the primary thing I've taken from everything I found out this week is that I'm not putting enough money away to prepare for this particular situation so I have to work on that now.  The plan for what to do with her and how to execute likely just needs to come later if and when she comes to me about it.

Excellent points you made about how if she could have avoided causing me trouble she would have avoided it for herself and how to an extent this is how she wants things to be - I have struggled with accepting these notions in the past.  Thanks again for all of your insight.

[EconDiva]

I would be suspicious of her statement that she visited the community action center, to ask for help, but was turned down due to Covid / no appointments available.  She's possibly set up a plausible lie to tell you, so that she need not continue that strand of the discussion.  It's just too convienent.
    Are you believing they wouldn't offer their services over the phone ?   Are phone appointments taboo ?  No, its a plausible lie, based on factors beyond her control [ Covid] , that is easy to pass off as truth under the umbrella of - "people can't meet in person because of pandemic, therefore I have to put off, again, seeking help."

 I went back and looked at the old thread. She was being decieving back then about the house issues.  You now know , definitively, that she didn't use her inheritance to pay off the mortgage [ back then you thought it was possible ]

  Are you really going to be able to sit there with her at X-mas , knowing that she in fact has no lawfull interest in the house, it is owned by someone else, and she could have the eviction process happen at any day in the future, and say nothing in the interest of peace and goodwill. ?

   The Best present you can give her is to tell her you know about USDA auctioning off the house.  If you can't bear to say it, write it in a X-mas card, which you hand to her as soon as you arrive.   Then let the chips fall where they may.  Re-state your offer to help when she is ready for help [ and ready to be honest].

I believe she went to the Community Action center; you have to understand that up until recently all she would say about therapy were things like "I'm never going".."No one can make me go"..."I will never see another therapist in my life"...she has been very adamant for years that I'm wasting my time pushing it on her.  Only very recently has she seemed to turn a leaf with this so I personally don't think her statements surrounding this issue were lies.

Regarding your question: "Are you really going to be able to sit there with her at X-mas , knowing that she in fact has no lawfull interest in the house, it is owned by someone else, and she could have the eviction process happen at any day in the future, and say nothing in the interest of peace and goodwill. ?"

My response is:

Yes.

Just as she sat there for the past 3 years allowing me to constantly ask about the house and push to get her into a new one knowing she was in the process of eviction.

Make no doubt about it; not telling her is not because I wish to be spiteful.  It is to, as I mention upthread now, allow her to come to me for help at this point.

You don't know how many hours I have spent telling her I'm here to help over the years.  How many times I've already resolved issues for her.  How I've taken her to open houses in her area to walk her through homes telling her she could have that home for free and I'd take care of all of the packing and moving - all she has to do is just agree to it.

She doesn't need a restate of my offers again in any card at this point.

[EconDiva]

I'm so sorry the news isn't better. I had hoped your mother might have started therapy or reached out for help on her own, but it appears she's still in deep denial and in the grips of serious mental illness.

The fact that the house was foreclosed on and then sold for ~$3K is telling. The property owners likely bought up LOTS of condemned properties with the intent of selling them on for developers (selling for land value and expect the house is a total loss) and they may not even realize there IS someone living in the house, especially if there are no utilities in service at that address. She's basically what appears to be a hold-over tenant or even outright squatter at this point, so if the owners were aware the house was occupied, they likely would take steps to remove her.

In the case of her losing the house and impending eviction, since there has been an eviction moratorium pretty much the whole year due to COVID, she has in a way been able to avoid dealing with reality longer than usual, but she's fast approaching being homeless because she's refusing to actually deal with the matter and take action. As she is in her 60s, it may be time to call the county elder/social services to ask about what options are available for a hypothetical relative. You likely could speak to a social worker and ask them what is involved with doing a welfare check on her and her living conditions (and whether you can ask for a check anonymously).

I could see as a less extreme measure of calling and telling her that you are aware she's been foreclosed on, and ask her what her plans are. Plainly, but with compassion explain she's running out of options and that while you are there, and love her, and will do what you can, she's putting herself in unnecessary trouble and causing you serious worry besides. Do not entertain the delusions; facts, truth, options that are based in reality, but with compassion. It's a hard road, but might get through to her eventually.

But. The amount of stress and worry and dealing with a stubborn, angry and deeply delusional hoarder is so... draining and frustrating and mostly futile if they're unwilling to accept help offered I agree that it may be in your best interests to just wait her out and let her deal with what comes and step in if/when she actually asks. She knows you love her, and offered help in the past and how to contact you. Reach out to check in regularly, but just as a reminder: I am worried about you and your living situation. Your current conditions are not normal or safe and you don't have to live like this. I'm here, and I love you, and I can help you if you want it.

This is all just such a burden and scary and heartbreaking. Untreated mental illness is such an absolute tragedy.

@Frankies Girl -

Very happy to hear from you; I have gone back to re-read your posts in my original thread multiple times since that thread was originally posted by the way.

Although this isn't good news, I am so very grateful to know the information I now know.  It came at a time I did need to know so I can get more serious about setting aside separate funds for her situation and what is now sure to happen sooner rather than later.

I almost can't believe I never looked into this - that's not like me AT ALL.  It was like I was blindsided because I am that one person at work, in the family, amongst my friends, that is jokingly sometimes referred to as the "private investigator" - always researching/looking into/getting into the bottom of things for both myself and for others.  It is strange that in this situation I did not ever think until now to look into this; especially after the countless conversations with my mom about her house.  It was seriously as if I wasn't meant to know until now.  (For anyone reading this thread who is a Christian/Believer, the way things unfolded [how I came to being aware of this info] was interesting; I can share that if anyone is interested in hearing.)

I'm not sure if you saw this but the deed went back to the USDA.  I have no clue as to their awareness of her living in the home.  I am in agreement that this is clearly a squatter situation at this point.  She has some serious denial too; she sometimes sends me photos of something new she's bought for the house and all of these little 'side projects' she's working on with outside plants/decorations and things for the yard.  :(

She continues to pay the electric bill fyi.

You're right on point about the eviction moratorium giving her more time as well as about social services; I spoke to my therapist yesterday (she's an ex social worker) and she recommended the same which I will be pursuing.  RE: the welfare check, what exactly would be the purpose of that specifically by the way?  When I spoke with my therapist she said it's to 'make sure she's ok', but I do speak to my mom every week and just saw her last month for Thanksgiving so I know she's "her version of ok", and I already know the condition of the home.  I will be touching bases with social services specifically to see how I can get her support for therapy though.

I think at this point the conversation with her about me knowing isn't going to happen and that I'd now rather just let things unfold as they may, meaning let her come to me when she's finally ready to talk and execute a plan.  Sometimes I wonder if she would do that or just start living in her car or something..I don't know at this point.

I do realize the importance of keeping myself healthy (emotionally, physically, etc.) and have started to get 'warnings' from two close family members the past year or two about this in that they feel I need to have some more mental separation between her issues and my own life because they feel it's impacting me health-wise.  No doubt it has so I'm trying to understand how to balance my love and support for her with keeping myself in the right headspace as I have depression too (that isn't necessarily mild in nature either).  Her situation is heartbreaking indeed.

Thanks for reading my update and for commenting!

[SunnyDays]

Thinking about her "rock bottom" and your continued offers of help, I wonder if the latter is forestalling the former?  As long as she knows that there's someone to bail her out, why would she do anything to help herself?  And right now, with her knowing that no one is doing anything about an eviction either, she might have a false sense of security about her situation.  "I can just stay here as long as I want, and if something happens that I can't, then EconDiva will fix things for me."  That mindset would sap all motivation.  So saying nothing more about it is probably wise, and if she brings it up, I would put the onus back on her, as in "What will you do then?" without offering rescue.  She may well end up in her car, and even that might not be rock bottom for her, except for a likely panic that she has to part with most of her stuff.

I'm not Christian, but I do believe that sometimes things are hidden from us for a reason.  I've had that kind of experience for myself.  Maybe God/the universe is trying to tell you something? (I would be interested in hearing the details if you want to share it.)

[Metalcat]

Thinking about her "rock bottom" and your continued offers of help, I wonder if the latter is forestalling the former?  As long as she knows that there's someone to bail her out, why would she do anything to help herself?  And right now, with her knowing that no one is doing anything about an eviction either, she might have a false sense of security about her situation.  "I can just stay here as long as I want, and if something happens that I can't, then EconDiva will fix things for me."  That mindset would sap all motivation.  So saying nothing more about it is probably wise, and if she brings it up, I would put the onus back on her, as in "What will you do then?" without offering rescue.  She may well end up in her car, and even that might not be rock bottom for her, except for a likely panic that she has to part with most of her stuff.

I'm not Christian, but I do believe that sometimes things are hidden from us for a reason.  I've had that kind of experience for myself.  Maybe God/the universe is trying to tell you something? (I would be interested in hearing the details if you want to share it.)

Yeah, that's what rock bottom and enabling are all about.

People try to help, but they're just enabling the person's continued self destruction. It's not intentional, they just make the critical logical error of assuming the person actually wants resolution, when they don't really.

It's a common and understandable mistake, because from the helpers point of view, they can't fathom the person wearing anything but to escape their hell.

[VAR]

Strongly advise that you do not let her live with you!
This is what I did to avoid my hoarder parent becoming homeless last year. And now my "hobbies" are all based on anti-hoarder tactics(adding locks to everything, removing furniture, changing the exterior landscaping so cant hide piles in the yard, etc etc). But I work so parent has many more hours a week to devise ways to hoard in my house than I have to prevent it. Everything is a constant fight. It is miserable.
I was delusional I guess that parent would have some gratefulness at not being homeles (wrong, so wrong). Actually if anything I think parent blames me.

Also I think your projected detachment for holidays is wonderful. Keep it past the holidays. Do not pay 3 months at a time at some airbnb.
That will become the expectation.

I felt strongly it was the right thing to "take care of" my parent. But the result is I am being relentlessly dragged down to her level.

Practice this phrase: "oh no. That sounds stressful. What are you going to do?"

Let go of "how can i help/ i have an idea/ what about if...."

[Metalcat]

Strongly advise that you do not let her live with you!
This is what I did to avoid my hoarder parent becoming homeless last year. And now my "hobbies" are all based on anti-hoarder tactics(adding locks to everything, removing furniture, changing the exterior landscaping so cant hide piles in the yard, etc etc). But I work so parent has many more hours a week to devise ways to hoard in my house than I have to prevent it. Everything is a constant fight. It is miserable.
I was delusional I guess that parent would have some gratefulness at not being homeles (wrong, so wrong). Actually if anything I think parent blames me.

Also I think your projected detachment for holidays is wonderful. Keep it past the holidays. Do not pay 3 months at a time at some airbnb.
That will become the expectation.

I felt strongly it was the right thing to "take care of" my parent. But the result is I am being relentlessly dragged down to her level.

Practice this phrase: "oh no. That sounds stressful. What are you going to do?"

Let go of "how can i help/ i have an idea/ what about if...."

Ugh, I am so sorry you are dealing with this.

It's exactly in line with what I was saying above, that they don't want to be rescued from their horrid lives, the want to be rescued from just *some* of the consequences of their choices, but they very much would like to cherry pick which ones....and they bring the rest with them, and if they're in your home, they bring it there. 

And worse, you're the asshole for having taken it away in the first place, and you're the ongoing asshole for trying to control them.

OP, I also STRONGLY recommend against letting her live with you, but I think I recall from your previous posts that you were already against that? Regardless, even if you get hit with a sudden, urgent request for help, do not even let her move in temporarily. That's why I suggested having a temporary lodging situation ready that you can comfortably afford.

Preferably one you know she won't try to stay in long term as a default, because she really needs to decide for herself where she is going to live. Not just land somewhere on your dime that she can passively settle into and resent you for.

That's why I suggested renting a room for a few months. She'll want out quickly if she's sharing a living space with other people who are allowed to dictate how she lives in that space.

I only suggest this if you're like me and know that your resolve not to step in will dissolve the moment you feel your mom is in real danger. I personally just *can't* not help, so this type of plan is my way of fortifying my boundaries and making sure that she never ends up living with me, or living on my dime indefinitely, but with both of us miserable about it.

[mozar]

The people who do welfare checks are sometimes mandated reporters which means if they see abuse, or in your case, illegal living conditions, they will report it to the government which will kick off the eviction process.

I understand if you don't want that, but it could be useful to have in your back pocket.

My aunt was living with my dad for many years and the landlord told my dad that he would be evicted if my aunt continued living there (she is a hoarder). My dad had been complaining to me for many years about all the problems with his sister but wasn't motivated to do anything about it until an actual eviction notice. As she is not mentally competent he found a half way house for her.

In your case I don't think you should rent her an apartment or an AirBnB or let her stay with her friend as she is likely to abuse a well kept living situation. Instead of thinking of this as a last resort, I think a women's shelter should be the first option. Being homeless can enable her to get access to wrap around benefits.

Some homeless shelters are worse than others so if you want to spend time researching something instead of just worrying, you can use the time to research the safety records/ services of different homeless shelters. If that day comes that she has been evicted you will be ready with phone numbers that she (not you) can call.

You mentioned that she is involved with a church. You can also call them up and ask them what kind of help they can give.

Something that might be really painful for you is if she paints  you as the "bad guy" for not enabling her to continue to avoid the consequences of her behavior. That is something you will have to work through separately from your mother. It's time for either the state or her church to step in.

I remember your thread(s) and you have my sympathies.

[Dicey]

OTOH, a friend's mom went through something related. She lost her job and eventually her house, but no one ever came knocking, so she lived there until she died, several years after the foreclosure .This was during the Great Recession and the property wasn't worth a lot. Perhaps the bank figured it was good that someone was making sure the pipes didn't burst.

My friend's deadbeat brother mooched off his mom and lived in the house with her until she died. No idea what happened to him.

[Peony]

Following.

[iluvzbeach]

@EconDiva, thank you so much for sharing your story.  It is immensely helpful as I am going through a very similar situation with my father and it is incredibly difficult.  I hate knowing that others are going through the same painful situation that I am, but at the same time it's nice to know I am not in this alone and that there are others who can relate.  I am so very sorry that you're dealing with such a difficult situation with your own mother.

@Malcat, thank you (and others who've commented) on your wise advice/feedback.  One of your responses above was so good that I feel like I should send you some money for the "online therapy."

I'm primarily posting to follow for the support and encouragement that comes from reading responses from other wise forum members.  That said, @EconDiva, I don't think you should do anything to rent or pay for any sort of housing accommodations for your mother as I believe it would just be part of enabling her and potentially put you at great financial & liability risk.  What I would do in your shoes (and will for my own father) is check into low-income senior housing and get her on a list ASAP so that when she reaches the top of the list, there will be a place she can move into on her own accord.  The more you can keep her independent of you and all housing/finances separate, the "safer" it will be for you and you must place taking care of yourself above all else.  I write this, in part, as advice to myself as I hope I'll handle the situation in this way when the time comes.

Best wishes in dealing with this most difficult of situations.

[EconDiva]

Happy New Year everyone!  We made it to 2021!!

So a brief update on the situation and current thoughts:

My mom and I usually meet up in a city that is an hour from where she lives whenever I come into town.  This is the city I would like for her to move to because there is an airport there, it's closer to amenities, has more job opportunities and her church home is there.  I haven't been to my mom's actual house in a year and a half.

I called my mom on the morning I was heading out and said I was on the way so I thought the plan of her meeting me in that city was still on because she didn't say anything different.  When I called her because I was ~20 minutes away from the city and was asking if she was there yet or on the way, she said she couldn't come because she had a fall and I'd need to come to her house to get her b/c she couldn't stand or walk.  Long story short, I picked her up, we spent that evening in urgent care; turns out she broke her leg.  It happened in the wee early hours of that morning (like so early it was still pitch black outside) but for some reason she didn't tell me when I called her the first time that day.

Anywho, we did spend Christmas in the hotel I booked in the city as planned; I had to extend the hotel stay and car rental to take her to ortho to get a cast.  (Last week was kinda expensive d/t her being uninsured and me paying med expenses OOP but could've been worse.)  Right after that I drove her back to her home town to get stuff out her house so she could come back with me.  It made the most sense as there is no way for her to safely get around in her home with a broken leg (I tripped multiple times myself inside the house while there which usually happens d/t the amount of clutter). 

So she'll be with me here in Atlanta for the next 5-6 weeks.  Then I'll take her back to her state for her follow up, at which time hopefully she gets her cast off.  However, I have had many thoughts about what next month will look like.  I may need to actually stay there for a while for a number of reasons.  When I had taken her home, she wanted to show me the local county center she planned on going to for therapy.  When we pulled up she said that it's still not open and hasn't been all the months she's been checking.  It turns out, they've been open the whole time but she assumed they weren't because 'there were always only a few cars in the parking lot so how was she supposed to know they were open?'.  She was angry for some reason when I told her they were never closed (I went in and spoke with someone about the process of starting therapy for her).  So, I have the paperwork for that and what I envision happening is that when I take her back, she will want me to accompany her to her first appointments (she has expressed a ton of anxiety about going and explicitly once last year stated she would go but only if I could go with her).  I have no clue how all of that will pan out and how long I'd need to be away from Atlanta or where I'd stay.  But right now I think I need to take it one step at a time.

My therapist stated that if we start therapy together to focus on the immediate issue of the housing situation - my mom doesn't know I know the status of the home and my therapist stated that family therapy might be the best place to announce that and work on it together.  My therapist believes all of the other problems (which could take years/forever to work out) can be broached over time.  My mom and I did get into an argument over Christmas which isn't atypical; the next morning she asked me to take her back home which luckily we were able to talk through all of that.  I just get so drained sometimes from our arguing and so depressed after seeing her living circumstances knowing I will come back home to a nice, warm, clean place of my own.  It really makes me feel like a failure of a daughter sometimes to be honest.  It's what keeps me wanting to take the situation into my own hands and fix it, although I have agreed with many of you that I need to take a step back and let her come to me.  I hate seeing my mom live this way when I have so much hope that she can do better but only with some HELP which I'd be the one to give.

Anywho; I digress -

I had been doing a lot of praying about my next move over the past few months (I like to move around and have started to get the itch again).  I had no clue whether to go back to Chicago temporarily (my job is there but I work remotely now) or to try somewhere new like Miami.  However, it is 'starting' to seem like I might need to take up the option of indeed moving but back to SC temporarily as I'm just starting to get the feeling I might need to be there for a while to work through some things.  It could end up being for the sole reason of getting my mom set up with therapy, or it could also turn out I end up helping some way with a home (i.e., getting her on the senior housing list as a poster mentioned above) or getting her situated with primary care and social services, or a combination of these things.  Either way, something is starting to say to me that I might need to consider being much closer for a little while.  I realllllllly do not want to go back to living in SC at ALL (even temporarily) but it may be needed; we shall see.  It's possible that if this occurs it could happen quickly as I feel the need to "strike while the iron is hot" so to speak with this whole therapy thing.

[EconDiva]

Just wanted to add -

I don't know exactly what conditions my mom suffers from; she was once diagnosed with bipolar disorder however sometimes I think she may have been misdiagnosed.  I know hoarding falls in the obsessive/compulsive range of disorders I think and she does exhibit a ton of depression and anxiety. 

She is starting to express a tad more paranoia; she's always been that way but last week she argued with me that her neighbors sometimes follow her when she leaves the house.  Honestly, the fall was partly due to her taking luggage down her outside concrete stairs in the pitch dark of morning - she has started to do a LOT more stuff at night and the reason she does is because she doesn't want her neighbors to see because she swears they're watching.  She has no outside lights on the house and there are no street lights on her road as she lives way out in the country so combined with the fact that there are no rails on the steps led to a bad situation. 

[six-car-habit]

 Sincerely wishing you good luck in the next 5-6 weeks while she is living with you.  There will be some fights, stemming from her "loss of independence" - and wanting to bring various junk into your apartment.

  It may be rude to say -  ' i told you so ' , but hey, back on reply # 17 on this thread I advised she had Never attempted to set up an appointment at the community action center.  Now you know this is true.  Start calling her dishonesty out when she has LIED to you ....

[EconDiva]

I'm not Christian, but I do believe that sometimes things are hidden from us for a reason.  I've had that kind of experience for myself.  Maybe God/the universe is trying to tell you something? (I would be interested in hearing the details if you want to share it.)

So, I was raised Christian but for many years (most of my adult life) I was borderline agnostic a large part of the time.

So many things have happened to me over the past 4ish months that seem to be of a spiritual nature that I couldn't begin to speak on all of them; even if I did most of it would likely just sound weird/crazy...I'm still trying to figure out some of it myself.  I will express that one of the things that happened is that all of a sudden, out of nowhere, I first got a HUGE urge to pray for forgiveness of my sins.  Like, out of the blue..never happened before.  So I started doing that.  After that, I got a HUGE urge to fast.  Have NEVER fasted for spiritual reasons before.  So I prayed about that asking for direction/confirmation via the Word/bible - the night I prayed about this and opened up my Bible the passage I randomly flipped to and read literally ended with the very last verse speaking about fasting. 

So I did a Daniel fast for the first time for about a month.  I was not praying as heavily as I felt I should during that time, but I did read some articles about it and after watching a ton of Youtube videos I started to think to myself...what am I fasting for?  A lot of people have something in mind they are fasting for before they even begin.  They usually want an answer to a question or questions or direction; that sort of thing.  Or maybe deliverance from something (breaking of bondage from something addictive for example).  Or help with something (i.e., finances or illness).  Because I was led to fast, I felt there must be a reason for it, but during the fasting I concentrated on asking for certain things, all of which I won't name here.  But one of the things I put priority on asking for direction on was where to live next.  I kept praying to God that I felt it 'might' be time for me to move again but I wanted his input on it this time (for the first time in my life). 

By the end of the fast, I didn't feel like I had gotten a strong answer to anything in particular.  I was however shown a few things about myself (for instance, how food is a bit of an idol in my life).  To be honest, I 'kinda' knew that to an extent but it was helpful to see my relationship with attachment to food as comfort in a more spiritual light.  After seeing articles and vids about so many groundbreaking revelations and such that happened to people by the very last day of their fast, I had accepted there wasn't really anything 'big' so to speak that would come out of it.

That was until the day (a few weeks after the fast ended) that I had an almost 'internal voice' say to me out of NOwhere suddenly one day that I needed to look into the status of my mom's house...NOW.  I mentioned this upthread^.  It was almost like an urge; a commanding.  And as I mentioned, I'm shocked at myself for never having put 2 and 2 together up until this point; it was indeed like I had blinders on all of this time to the situation.  I literally came full circle in understanding that I was being told to fast for revelation - that God was preparing to show me something.  That is how I truly feel today.

To top it off ya'll (I hadn't really talked about this), during the fasting period, I had started going through my clothing taking out certain items I just all of a sudden felt weren't, well, modest enough anymore.  I just out of nowhere started feeling a pull to get rid of certain items.  A slight pull; I didn't overhaul my wardrobe or anything.  I just started to feel a shift in how I saw myself when I dressed in certain things.  I say all of this to say that during that time I reminisced on the days where, remember the period that the WWJD bracelets were in?  I thought about them and thought to myself "I'm going to look into something like that...but I'd like a bible verse on mine."  (No clue what verse.) 

So.  I took an Uber ride one day and the driver was a minister.  Not just a minister but also an enterpreneur with a clothing site for modest like clothing it turns out.  We talked about 20 minutes in the ride about spirituality; it was such a good conversation and it hit me at just the right time because that particular day of fasting I was having a hard time adhering to my fast.  The conversation with him really helped me.  I almost didn't want to get out of the car when he dropped me off.  And right as I was about to get out of the car, he said, "Hey; I want to give you a gift."  He reached to the passenger side, then reached back to me and what did he put in my hand?

A bracelet.  Imprinted with the following:

Psalms 127:1



Here is the first verse from it:  "Unless the LORD builds the house, its builders labor in vain."

^I have been wearing the bracelet pretty much daily since the day I received it.  I did look the verse up when I first got it, but it wasn't until after my fast ended, on the day that I got the 'urge' to look into the status of my mom's home, that I also revisited the verse that day post finding out about my mom's situation as I had looked at the bracelet and suddenly felt the need to revisit the passage again. 

To anyone who reads this I say - take from this story what you may.

[EconDiva]

Sincerely wishing you good luck in the next 5-6 weeks while she is living with you.  There will be some fights, stemming from her "loss of independence" - and wanting to bring various junk into your apartment.

  It may be rude to say -  ' i told you so ' , but hey, back on reply # 17 on this thread I advised she had Never attempted to set up an appointment at the community action center.  Now you know this is true.  Start calling her dishonesty out when she has LIED to you ....

I appreciate the well wishes.

I will be having my teletherapy visits (outside) to help myself out during this time lol.

She could not go into her house to bring everything she wanted to bring out of her house to my apartment because of her broken leg.  She stayed in the car and I went in and brought the stuff out and only what she needed.  So no big issues there.

Hey, I want you to know that I definitely would give you credit where it's due.  I need to look back at exactly what you stated but if you stated she did not attempt to make an appointment then you are correct I guess.  I obviously trust her intent more than you do however; if she did not want to do therapy there's no way she'd drive over there.  There's also no way she'd ask me to drive US there together to show me the place.  She's spent many years telling me she wants nothing to do with therapy so I think this is an obvious change of heart.  She did not do the rational thing by going in the parking lot and thinking "well I only see 2 cars so it must be closed; no need to go in because it's closed."  That didn't make any sense whatsoever but I honestly believe she did not think the place was open; she was not happy I pointed this out to her because it made her feel incompetent that she'd been basing her thoughts on an incorrect assumption which could have been easily checked if she just got out the car and walked to the door. 

In summary, she is not quite as motivated by ill intent as she is just plain irrational unfortunately.  We shall see what comes of all of this though; thanks again for the well wishes.

[CrustyBadger]

I don't know exactly what conditions my mom suffers from; she was once diagnosed with bipolar disorder however sometimes I think she may have been misdiagnosed.  I know hoarding falls in the obsessive/compulsive range of disorders I think and she does exhibit a ton of depression and anxiety. 

She is starting to express a tad more paranoia; she's always been that way but last week she argued with me that her neighbors sometimes follow her when she leaves the house. 

My understanding is that onlye fairly recently, hoarding disorder has become its own diagnosis in the DSM-5 that may occur along with, and be exacerbated by, anxiety, ADHD and OCD but can also be independent of those conditions.

This is important because treatment for hoarding disorder may be very different from treatment for OCD.   Most important to know is that there IS effective treatment for hoarding disorder, and that most people who suffer from this mental illness can just "decide to get better when they hit rock bottom" as some people think. 

However, effective treatment for hoarding disorder isn't available everywhere.

[CrustyBadger]

She is starting to express a tad more paranoia; she's always been that way but last week she argued with me that her neighbors sometimes follow her when she leaves the house.  Honestly, the fall was partly due to her taking luggage down her outside concrete stairs in the pitch dark of morning - she has started to do a LOT more stuff at night and the reason she does is because she doesn't want her neighbors to see because she swears they're watching.  She has no outside lights on the house and there are no street lights on her road as she lives way out in the country so combined with the fact that there are no rails on the steps led to a bad situation.

What is she doing outside at night that she doesn't want the neighbors to see?  Why is she taking luggage down to the curb, for instance?  Was she giving it away?   This does sound manic if it is happening often.

[Metalcat]

I don't know exactly what conditions my mom suffers from; she was once diagnosed with bipolar disorder however sometimes I think she may have been misdiagnosed.  I know hoarding falls in the obsessive/compulsive range of disorders I think and she does exhibit a ton of depression and anxiety. 

She is starting to express a tad more paranoia; she's always been that way but last week she argued with me that her neighbors sometimes follow her when she leaves the house. 

My understanding is that onlye fairly recently, hoarding disorder has become its own diagnosis in the DSM-5 that may occur along with, and be exacerbated by, anxiety, ADHD and OCD but can also be independent of those conditions.

This is important because treatment for hoarding disorder may be very different from treatment for OCD.   Most important to know is that there IS effective treatment for hoarding disorder, and that most people who suffer from this mental illness can just "decide to get better when they hit rock bottom" as some people think. 

However, effective treatment for hoarding disorder isn't available everywhere.

Being one of the people who used the term "rock bottom", I feel the need to clarify that I don't think any hoarder just gets better on their own after hitting rock bottom.

But I *do* believe that autonomous adults who have overtly rejected any and all help to address their hoarding do need to hit whatever their personal "rock bottom" is before they will be receptive to receiving help.

This is the case here, it's taken her mom literally losing her home for her to even consider going to therapy. I don't think any of us have implied that she doesn't need intensive, specialized psychological support.

[EconDiva]

She is starting to express a tad more paranoia; she's always been that way but last week she argued with me that her neighbors sometimes follow her when she leaves the house.  Honestly, the fall was partly due to her taking luggage down her outside concrete stairs in the pitch dark of morning - she has started to do a LOT more stuff at night and the reason she does is because she doesn't want her neighbors to see because she swears they're watching.  She has no outside lights on the house and there are no street lights on her road as she lives way out in the country so combined with the fact that there are no rails on the steps led to a bad situation.

What is she doing outside at night that she doesn't want the neighbors to see?  Why is she taking luggage down to the curb, for instance?  Was she giving it away?   This does sound manic if it is happening often.

She took the luggage out of the house to get it in her car.  You see, she had luggage because she was originally supposed to meet me at a hotel an hour away to spend Christmas week with me as we do not stay at her home.

She doesn't want them to see her leaving the house or coming home.  So if she has to leave to get groceries or go to the PO Box or whatever, she now prefers to leave at night because she simply says she does not want to give the nosy neighbors the satisfaction of being able to see her comings/goings.  When I used to visit more frequently, at one point, whenever I pulled up to the house she would come outside quickly telling me to move the car to the side of the house now-she wanted it on a side she 'felt' less people would see so they wouldn't know I was there.  When I came to get her this time, as I brought her down the steps into my car rental she got a bit angry stating that neighbors were now coming outside their house to see who I was and what was going on.  Of course, I felt it was nothing out of the norm (even if they do peek out the window or come out for a minute to their car but with the intent of being nosy, I would barely notice but I sure wouldn't be preoccupied with it).

I have seen her in a manic state before so it doesn't seem manic to be but rather seems like a case of paranoia. 

[Metalcat]

Happy New Year everyone!  We made it to 2021!!

So a brief update on the situation and current thoughts:

My mom and I usually meet up in a city that is an hour from where she lives whenever I come into town.  This is the city I would like for her to move to because there is an airport there, it's closer to amenities, has more job opportunities and her church home is there.  I haven't been to my mom's actual house in a year and a half.

I called my mom on the morning I was heading out and said I was on the way so I thought the plan of her meeting me in that city was still on because she didn't say anything different.  When I called her because I was ~20 minutes away from the city and was asking if she was there yet or on the way, she said she couldn't come because she had a fall and I'd need to come to her house to get her b/c she couldn't stand or walk.  Long story short, I picked her up, we spent that evening in urgent care; turns out she broke her leg.  It happened in the wee early hours of that morning (like so early it was still pitch black outside) but for some reason she didn't tell me when I called her the first time that day.

Anywho, we did spend Christmas in the hotel I booked in the city as planned; I had to extend the hotel stay and car rental to take her to ortho to get a cast.  (Last week was kinda expensive d/t her being uninsured and me paying med expenses OOP but could've been worse.)  Right after that I drove her back to her home town to get stuff out her house so she could come back with me.  It made the most sense as there is no way for her to safely get around in her home with a broken leg (I tripped multiple times myself inside the house while there which usually happens d/t the amount of clutter). 

So she'll be with me here in Atlanta for the next 5-6 weeks.  Then I'll take her back to her state for her follow up, at which time hopefully she gets her cast off.  However, I have had many thoughts about what next month will look like.  I may need to actually stay there for a while for a number of reasons.  When I had taken her home, she wanted to show me the local county center she planned on going to for therapy.  When we pulled up she said that it's still not open and hasn't been all the months she's been checking.  It turns out, they've been open the whole time but she assumed they weren't because 'there were always only a few cars in the parking lot so how was she supposed to know they were open?'.  She was angry for some reason when I told her they were never closed (I went in and spoke with someone about the process of starting therapy for her).  So, I have the paperwork for that and what I envision happening is that when I take her back, she will want me to accompany her to her first appointments (she has expressed a ton of anxiety about going and explicitly once last year stated she would go but only if I could go with her).  I have no clue how all of that will pan out and how long I'd need to be away from Atlanta or where I'd stay.  But right now I think I need to take it one step at a time.

My therapist stated that if we start therapy together to focus on the immediate issue of the housing situation - my mom doesn't know I know the status of the home and my therapist stated that family therapy might be the best place to announce that and work on it together.  My therapist believes all of the other problems (which could take years/forever to work out) can be broached over time.  My mom and I did get into an argument over Christmas which isn't atypical; the next morning she asked me to take her back home which luckily we were able to talk through all of that.  I just get so drained sometimes from our arguing and so depressed after seeing her living circumstances knowing I will come back home to a nice, warm, clean place of my own.  It really makes me feel like a failure of a daughter sometimes to be honest.  It's what keeps me wanting to take the situation into my own hands and fix it, although I have agreed with many of you that I need to take a step back and let her come to me.  I hate seeing my mom live this way when I have so much hope that she can do better but only with some HELP which I'd be the one to give.

Anywho; I digress -

I had been doing a lot of praying about my next move over the past few months (I like to move around and have started to get the itch again).  I had no clue whether to go back to Chicago temporarily (my job is there but I work remotely now) or to try somewhere new like Miami.  However, it is 'starting' to seem like I might need to take up the option of indeed moving but back to SC temporarily as I'm just starting to get the feeling I might need to be there for a while to work through some things.  It could end up being for the sole reason of getting my mom set up with therapy, or it could also turn out I end up helping some way with a home (i.e., getting her on the senior housing list as a poster mentioned above) or getting her situated with primary care and social services, or a combination of these things.  Either way, something is starting to say to me that I might need to consider being much closer for a little while.  I realllllllly do not want to go back to living in SC at ALL (even temporarily) but it may be needed; we shall see.  It's possible that if this occurs it could happen quickly as I feel the need to "strike while the iron is hot" so to speak with this whole therapy thing.

A few points

1: DO NOT let yourself feel guilty that you have a secure and safe life and she doesn't. She made a choice to live that way. Remember that, she chose it and has ferociously defended it. She could have had your life, but she didn't want it, and still doesn't want it.

2: Yes, she clearly has mental illness, but yet again I feel the need to emphasize that unless she is mentally incapacitated to a point where she cannot be responsible for her own decisions, then DO NOT inflantalize her and project that you need to step in and save her from herself. That is not an appropriate or respectful position for you to take.

Unless and until you are in a position to legally take over her decision making for her, it is NOT your place to believe that you know better for her than she knows for herself.

This for me is the hardest part, but I've had my ass handed to me over and over and over again every time I forget my place, and my place is NOT to make decisions for my adult parent, even though their mental illness makes it difficult for them to make decisions that I consider sane or reasonable.

3: This is how it all starts. You're already getting sucked in by letting this control where you choose to live, etc.

You need to determine your boundaries and stick to them. And yes, I know how insanely hard that is, but the alternative is even harder.

Sticking to your boundaries is hard but will preserve your sanity. Letting your boundaries slip is hard but won't. Pick which version of hard you want. No matter what, this will be a messy, horrible, heartbreaking shit show. The only thing you can control is how you choose to engage.

You cannot prevent things getting worse for your mother. I know it feels like you can, but if she wants to, she has absolute power to totally fuck her life as much as she pleases. Don't fool yourself that you have the power to stop her. You don't. You only have the power to help her help herself.

...unless and until she degrades enough mentally for the courts to grant you a conservatorship, if that's what it comes to.

[EconDiva]

This is the case here, it's taken her mom literally losing her home for her to even consider going to therapy. I don't think any of us have implied that she doesn't need intensive, specialized psychological support.

It has also taken her losing her son; the loss of contact with him has been devastating and on the day it practically occurred I told her then that she needed therapy and have been telling her ever since.  The difference is on that day she was adamant that would never happen; now that things are such that he won't visit or speak to her over the phone and she'd be lucky if he returns a text twice a year, it is very hurtful.  That is another story though because it's slightly possible that relationship would still be strained without the hoarding.  (Thank God for the therapists in the world; some family dysfunction runs deep.)

During the argument last week I had touched on how her decisions and ways of communicating, etc. impacted where she stands with my brother and that the things she was saying to me are why he chooses to just not have to deal with such things.  She expressed to me the next day that she keeps saying she is now willing to go to therapy as soon as she can and that she couldn't deal with if things with she and I got to the point where it is with my brother.

[CrustyBadger]

She doesn't want them to see her leaving the house or coming home.  So if she has to leave to get groceries or go to the PO Box or whatever, she now prefers to leave at night because she simply says she does not want to give the nosy neighbors the satisfaction of being able to see her comings/goings. 

OK, I thought you meant she was doing things at, like, 3 AM to avoid being observed by the neighbors.  That's what sounded possibly manic to me.  But ... why would she be upset that the neighbors know she is going grocery shopping or picking up her mail?   That really doesn't sound normal to me.  My concern is just that I think she sounds a lot more ill than you may realize since it seems to have happened slowly.

[EconDiva]

She doesn't want them to see her leaving the house or coming home.  So if she has to leave to get groceries or go to the PO Box or whatever, she now prefers to leave at night because she simply says she does not want to give the nosy neighbors the satisfaction of being able to see her comings/goings. 

OK, I thought you meant she was doing things at, like, 3 AM to avoid being observed by the neighbors.  That's what sounded possibly manic to me.  But ... why would she be upset that the neighbors know she is going grocery shopping or picking up her mail?   That really doesn't sound normal to me.  My concern is just that I think she sounds a lot more ill than you may realize since it seems to have happened slowly.

She is indeed intentionally doing things 'after dark' so that the neighbors do not see.  I cannot definitively say it doesn't happen at 3 am, although that is unlikely because there isn't anywhere to go at that time.  Plus she's usually asleep.   She's just making more of an effort these days to ensure she does things once it's dark out (i.e., loading/unloading her laundry in her car & other examples already provided).  I cannot explain why the neighbors seeing her do these things is an issue.

[CrustyBadger]

OK.  What I would suggest is that you use this time with her stay with you in or near Atlanta to get her to have a thorough medical checkup.  I know she is only 62 and that isn't old, but it might be useful to have her evaluated by a geriatrician if you can.  Someone who can look out for signs of paranoia or dementia. 

She could be dealing with, for example, chronic urinary tract infections as a result of living in a home with no running water for over a year.   Such infections have been known to cause mental health problems.

[EconDiva]

OK.  What I would suggest is that you use this time with her stay with you in or near Atlanta to get her to have a thorough medical checkup.  I know she is only 62 and that isn't old, but it might be useful to have her evaluated by a geriatrician if you can.  Someone who can look out for signs of paranoia or dementia. 

She could be dealing with, for example, chronic urinary tract infections as a result of living in a home with no running water for over a year.   Such infections have been known to cause mental health problems.

Really??? 

I hadn't planned on her doing any appointments in ATL; only in SC since that's where she lives.  When I take her back to SC next month I planned on staying for a while (just don't know how long yet but I'm open to doing anywhere from a week to 2 months; I just have to figure out where to stay).  I was going to stay long enough primarily to her started in therapy and if I can, perhaps get set up with a PCP and get a checkup.

She has expressed urinary issues but along the lines of incontinence only that I am aware of.

The mental health issues have been present though for as long as I can remember honestly (from childhood she was always 'different' than other adults to me; she likely has multiple issues...for instance, she's had trichotillomania for as long as I can remember).

[reeshau]

I haven't been to my mom's actual house in a year and a half.

I called my mom on the morning I was heading out and said I was on the way so I thought the plan of her meeting me in that city was still on because she didn't say anything different.  When I called her because I was ~20 minutes away from the city and was asking if she was there yet or on the way, she said she couldn't come because she had a fall and I'd need to come to her house to get her b/c she couldn't stand or walk.  Long story short, I picked her up, we spent that evening in urgent care; turns out she broke her leg.  It happened in the wee early hours of that morning (like so early it was still pitch black outside) but for some reason she didn't tell me when I called her the first time that day.

Anywho, we did spend Christmas in the hotel I booked in the city as planned; I had to extend the hotel stay and car rental to take her to ortho to get a cast.  (Last week was kinda expensive d/t her being uninsured and me paying med expenses OOP but could've been worse.)  Right after that I drove her back to her home town to get stuff out her house so she could come back with me.  It made the most sense as there is no way for her to safely get around in her home with a broken leg (I tripped multiple times myself inside the house while there which usually happens d/t the amount of clutter). 

So she'll be with me here in Atlanta for the next 5-6 weeks.  Then I'll take her back to her state for her follow up, at which time hopefully she gets her cast off.

It occurs to me that you could also see this incident in line with the spiritual events you have been feeling.  If your Mom hadn't broken her leg and needed assistance, you would have not gone by the community center to confirm it was open and get that ball rolling.  (Or, had you planned to do that anyway?)  And with her not being safe alone, you have some time together.  Since you have a folow-up appointment, It's necessarily temporary.

I'd take Malcat's advice that this is hers to fix, not yours--you are a supporting character, not the protagonist.  But keep an open mind during this time.  Something will happen in the next weeks; I hope she begins a road to healing.  It sounds like it will be a long road.  Good luck to you and your family in the new year.

[EconDiva]

A few points

@Malcat -

Thanks for posting.

Your posts are hard for me to read because they are so insightful yet they hit home so hard for me that they really make me question my thoughts and the courses of action I am considering.  With you having 'been there, done that', I value your opinion and to be honest, it's in conflict with what my 'heart' wants to do (and in conflict with say what my friends/family recommend) so it's very hard.