Author Topic: Is there a parallel MMM and Bogleheads case study?  (Read 2012 times)

markbike528CBX

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Is there a parallel MMM and Bogleheads case study?
« on: September 28, 2018, 09:14:24 AM »
The thread is a  result of this discussion:


Yes do a case study with all the proper information - and then get feedback. 
You can also do one at the bogleheads forum. 

Is there a side-by-side (dual-posted)MMM/bogleheads case study?  I would be interesting to compare/contrast the responses.
My guess. 
Bogleheads: Only $2M!, you'll be reduced to cat food in no time.   
MMM: Verily, you must hang out with Warren Buffett and all the 0.001percenters.

Ha. That is funny. So the Bogleheads would consider me too poor, and fellow MMMers would consider me too rich. Got it. LOL.

My suggestion/inquiry  for a side-by-side (dual-posted)MMM/bogleheads case study was serious to determine if the silly stereotypes I presented are based on any facts.  

I'm FIRED, so my case wouldn't be useful. 

I did a google search ie....

site:forum.mrmoneymustache.com/case-studies/ bogleheads

and couldn't find any cross-posted case studies.

MDM

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Re: Is there a parallel MMM and Bogleheads case study?
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2018, 09:42:55 AM »
Bogleheads tends to focus more on investment choices, while MMM tends to focus more on freeing up money to invest.  Much overlap, and each could learn from the other in many cases.

PizzaSteve

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Re: Is there a parallel MMM and Bogleheads case study?
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2018, 09:55:40 AM »
I read too much bogleheads bashing on this forum. Bogleheads is an outstanding resource and their wiki is a great starter link for technical investor guidance, unlike mmm, which is more of a story than technical.  The need to bash high net worth people smacks of insecurity, especially since MMM himself is likely high net worth. Most real high net worth people I know are incredibly frugal, not wanton spenders, as implied.

That said, the idea to support cross posting case studies is a good one.

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: Is there a parallel MMM and Bogleheads case study?
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2018, 10:35:57 AM »
A brilliant and fun idea, yes!

markbike528CBX

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Re: Is there a parallel MMM and Bogleheads case study?
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2018, 11:21:27 AM »
I read too much bogleheads bashing on this forum. Bogleheads is an outstanding resource and their wiki is a great starter link for technical investor guidance, unlike mmm, which is more of a story than technical.  The need to bash high net worth people smacks of insecurity, especially since MMM himself is likely high net worth. Most real high net worth people I know are incredibly frugal, not wanton spenders, as implied.

That said, the idea to support cross posting case studies is a good one.

PizzaSteve, I hope I wasn't "bashing", more like poking fun at both forums stereotypes.  Which would be nice to confirm/deny with a case study.
and maybe an er.org study too, if they do that per spartana's note.

Yep, if I have a technical question*, I've often gone to bogleheads.


*?small cap value overperformance due to survivorship bias?

Slow2FIRE

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Re: Is there a parallel MMM and Bogleheads case study?
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2018, 05:44:07 PM »
Perhaps er.org is the middle ground for a poor Bogelhead/rich mustashian.   http://www.early-retirement.org

There is also Reddit financial independence

Papa bear

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Re: Is there a parallel MMM and Bogleheads case study?
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2018, 08:32:42 PM »
Perhaps er.org is the middle ground for a poor Bogelhead/rich mustashian.   http://www.early-retirement.org
+1

It’s where I started posting before joining here. It has a lot of good info, just is an older, more affluent crowd.  And it has a lot of longer term FIRE people.


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PizzaSteve

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Re: Is there a parallel MMM and Bogleheads case study?
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2018, 11:19:06 AM »
I read too much bogleheads bashing on this forum. Bogleheads is an outstanding resource and their wiki is a great starter link for technical investor guidance, unlike mmm, which is more of a story than technical.  The need to bash high net worth people smacks of insecurity, especially since MMM himself is likely high net worth. Most real high net worth people I know are incredibly frugal, not wanton spenders, as implied.

That said, the idea to support cross posting case studies is a good one.
Its not bashing a very high NW people, its bashing people who have a very high NWs and who feel that no one can or should RE on less than a very high NW. To me that smacks of insecurity and fear. MMM, despite his NW now, had the confidence to FIRE with a much lower NW as did many others. All who have done well dispite the dire warnings of BH types who say it can't be done, we should amass a fortune and YOLO and we're all gonna die in poverty in a few short years after RE.
Agreed.  I just dont see that being posted on Bogleheads.  I read it posted here that Bogleheads posters think that way, but havent felt it at all reading their posts.  If anything, they ignore ERE topics and focus on investing.

jlcnuke

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Re: Is there a parallel MMM and Bogleheads case study?
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2018, 06:03:07 PM »
I read too much bogleheads bashing on this forum. Bogleheads is an outstanding resource and their wiki is a great starter link for technical investor guidance, unlike mmm, which is more of a story than technical.  The need to bash high net worth people smacks of insecurity, especially since MMM himself is likely high net worth. Most real high net worth people I know are incredibly frugal, not wanton spenders, as implied.

That said, the idea to support cross posting case studies is a good one.
Its not bashing a very high NW people, its bashing people who have a very high NWs and who feel that no one can or should RE on less than a very high NW. To me that smacks of insecurity and fear. MMM, despite his NW now, had the confidence to FIRE with a much lower NW as did many others. All who have done well dispite the dire warnings of BH types who say it can't be done, we should amass a fortune and YOLO and we're all gonna die in poverty in a few short years after RE.
Agreed.  I just dont see that being posted on Bogleheads.  I read it posted here that Bogleheads posters think that way, but havent felt it at all reading their posts.  If anything, they ignore ERE topics and focus on investing.
That's true. I know the few times I ventured into BH and er.org there was a lot of "you need $x to retire comfortably" but I don't recall any trashing of the ERE or MMM set. Just an attitude of it can't be done or shouldn't be done that young with that small of a NW or passive income. But overall (to me) they seem in general to be a spendy bunch with a more luxurious lifestyle than the average MMM follower who may hang out here. I seem to recall several BH vs MMM threads at BH that were anti-MMM. Some justified of course (IRP and MMM's personal "accounting" for his annual budget) but many just saying its impossible. It still like to see a 4-way case study though. BH vs ER.org vs MMM vs ERE. Fun

Nah, I like my stereotypes.

ERE.org has the "I can barely afford my bills assuming everything works out perfectly in the future if I don't work, so I'll almost certainly have to find work again, but I'm going to call myself retired now because I got a flat tire but won't start that new part-time job to cover the unexpected expenses until next week", and a 4-10% SWR sounds pretty pessimistic despite having absolutely zero room in the budget

Over here at MMM we have the "I can cover the flat tire, but if I encounter any health condition, a significant negative economic event, or any 'real' problems I'll probably have to go back to work, so I'll work a second job ... err side hustle.. in retirement but call myself retired" group, and the "I'll wait to get that new job until I'm scared I don't have enough" group, so a 4% SWR has virtually no chance of ever not working out, even if I can't afford to cut spending much/if at all.

Over at er.org we get the pretty balanced group.. "I've got my budget covered, adequate insurance, a significant bit of spending, but I can cut that back if there's a significant economic event so I don't have to go back to work" and a 3-4% SWR, depending on personal situation and risk tolerance, is probably fine.

Then we get the Boglehead - "a 4% SWR isn't conservative enough unless you have 20 years or less left in life, and your budget should have no more than 10% covering necessary expenses while the rest covers your yachting and jet-setting around the world".

All perfect stereotypes.. of at least one poster on each site :D :P

Spud

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Re: Is there a parallel MMM and Bogleheads case study?
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2018, 09:21:30 AM »
It seems to me that there’s a continuum with a focus on expense reduction at one end, and a focus on maximising investment returns at the other.

If you look at the financial problems most people in developed countries face, do those problems exist because people, for whatever reason, consistently spend more money than they actually earn, or do those problems exist because their investment returns were only 9% last year instead of 15% like the year before?

Hopefully the answer is obvious.

That’s why, in my opinion, the teachings of ERE and MMM are infinitely more valuable and more applicable to the majority of people.

Bogleheads sounds as if it’s people who are already wealthy, tinkering obsessively with their substantial portfolios. I appreciate that probably isn’t the case, but it’s my perception simply from reading posts from various threads on these forums.

I don’t wish to sound crass, but the investment side of things is a walk in the park. Most people will struggle with investments for two reasons.

1.   They have ZERO money to invest because they’re up to their eyeballs in debt and are ignorant antimustachians.

2.   They don’t know about the existence of index funds, and get suckered into some active managed stuff that sounds really technical and complex (read: crap and expensive) by predatory salesmen types.

The most valuable financial information online for most people is MMM posts from April 2011 up to some time in 2013. Cutting expenses is the way forward. A friend of mine recently got back in touch asking for some advice on investments. Roughly 3 years ago he was spending 78% of his income and wasn’t sure where the other 22% was going. Now he’s got a much higher income and is saving 55-60% of it all because I wrote him a couple of emails in 2015 and included some links to early MMM content. I just covered the basics and said “Devour MMM’s blog”

I didn’t include links to ERE, at least initially, because the writing style is less accessible and the methods too extreme for most (me included). I still love it and recommended it eventually because it makes you think hard about your choices. Or at least it does with me.

Regarding healthcare, I imagine the Bogleheads strategy would be to live and eat like a stereotypical opulent “Westerner”, lots of food and not much else, but make sure you have the best possible health cover, regardless of cost.
 
For ERE I imagine the strategy would be to have far cheaper health cover, but eat really healthily and simply (home cooking), avoid smoking/alcohol and work out at home with a pullup bar, gymnastics rings and kettlebells, actively ensuring that obesity and sarcopenia (and all the subsequent problems) are banished.

Different strokes for different folks I guess, but I like the self-reliance that ERE and some of MMM talks about. It’s empowering.

One of the things that ERE makes plain is that the solution to most people’s problems these days is “throw money at it”. It’s borderline being prepper/survivalist mentality for personal finance in some places, but I find that quite appealing as well, rather than simply saying “Get filthy rich, and then just spend your way out of trouble.”