Author Topic: How to invest and what to expect - German  (Read 2144 times)

Germanal

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How to invest and what to expect - German
« on: March 02, 2017, 02:28:46 AM »
editted for privacy
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 07:38:31 AM by Germanal »

stevewisc

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Re: How to invest and what to expect - German
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2017, 08:09:26 AM »
"17,50€ german not avoidable TV service (it is just like another tax in reality)"

Isn't it great how your neighbors can force you to buy TV service - "Here, take some sleeping pills they are great oh and you have to pay for them whether you use them or not." 

***
As for books -  :)
"A random walk down wall street" is great.
"Intelligent Investor" by Ben Graham
"One up on wall street"  - This is old and may not be timeless.

Probably some into to personal finance in Germany - get the basics of tax deferred accounts, and similar local to Germany rules.

***
 Indexfonds - or EFT's to put the money in.  - hopefully 4% is a low estimate
A pile to choose from here: http://www.boerse-frankfurt.de/etp

Real Estate? Would be interesting to see what that looks like in Germany. 

just two cents worth. :)

Germanal

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Re: How to invest and what to expect - German
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2017, 02:30:27 AM »
thank you for your reply. That helps a lot and provides me with something to read :)


Maschinist

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Re: How to invest and what to expect - German
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2017, 03:25:37 PM »
thank you for your reply. That helps a lot and provides me with something to read :)

As a German living in the US I can say that the problem with Germans is less the saving part but the investing part that is absolutely lacking.
You can propel yourself in front of 90%+ of your compatriots by understanding and then also regularly investing into index funds.
Don't believe what your neighbors are saying about the risk of stock buying. They have most likely no clue about it.
The number one reason that the average German has such a low net worth despite a booming economy with decent salaries is the fact that the majority of their savings is rotting away in checking- and savings account with zero yield (negative after inflation)

Now to the facts:

Vanguard ETF's are avaiable in Germany too.
You just need a broker.
You can for example open an interactivebrokers account:
https://www.interactivebrokers.com/de/home.php
and afterwards buy European based Vanguard ETF funds with virtually no cost.
The most easy thing is a single ETF the Vanguard All World fund in its European based version:
https://global.vanguard.com/portal/site/loadPDF?country=de&docId=1549
If you learn a little bit more you can put your money in three or four different Vanguard ETF's to optimize fees and enable better balancing.
If you are interested in a German style MM page/forum you can have a look here:
http://freiheitsmaschine.com/
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 03:35:17 PM by Maschinist »

Duvet

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Re: How to invest and what to expect - German
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2017, 03:06:45 PM »
Hello Dear Neighbor,

Haha good to see we are not the only one country getting f*cked by "mandatory TV service"

I am also pretty much a beginner in investing,

as Maschinist said, you should be able to have access to a large range of ETF in Germany. I have a lot of ETF available here in France. Personally I use my online banking account to invest in those ETF, I can buy American ETFs like the SP500 index and European indexes too.

With investments like that you could easily rely on 4% (and this super safe considering the American market averages 7% per year with inflation)

Guten Abend!

Feivel2000

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Re: How to invest and what to expect - German
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2017, 03:40:30 PM »
Hi,

I am from Germany as well, so I can relate to you.

Starting with you monthly bills, I cannot see much room to improve, but there still is some room:
1) Internet for 35€
I pay currently about 15€ for my Telekom 16.000 DSL (the best I can get... High speed wasteland...) and lately I saw an even cheaper offer for a Vodafone 100 Mbit line on MyDealz: https://www.mydealz.de/deals/vodafone-internet-phone-cable-100-oder-unitymedia-2play-jump-120-ab-rechn-10-eur-monat-gratis-sonos-play1-971825

Since you have time to shop around, I would recommend watching this page for offers.

2) Cellphone for 45€
I don't know the details of you contract, but you can get 3 GB with unlimited texts and minutes, without shopping around, for 10€ per month. Based on this, your contract forces you to buy a new smartphone every two years for 24*35=840€. That's very expansive and not a bargain.
You could buy last years model (the S7, a phenomenal device, is available for around 379€) or only upgrade when and if it's really necessary and save these 35 extra Euro every month.
Combining the cell service and the smartphone in one contract makes even less sense, since you can easily afford to buy the S8 if you want to. And I am pretty sure that you won't have to pay 840€ for it.

3) Your car
Switch to a smaller, used, gasoline car. This will reduce taxes and insurance.

Now regarding your last question:
We have quite a few good financial bloggers in Germany:
  • Finanzrocker.net
  • Finanzwesir.com
  • Zendepot.de
to only name three.

If you are looking for books, the blogs often have a book section. Many classics are also available in German, like Rich Dad, Poor Dad. If you are looking for something more practical, check out "Souverδn investieren mit Index-Fonds" from Gerd Kommer (https://www.amazon.de/Souver%C3%A4n-investieren-Indexfonds-ETFs-Privatanleger/dp/3593395428).

You can invest in ETFs, all you need is a broker. The magic word is Sparplan, with a saving plan you can buy the ETFs monthly with little or no fees.

Robo Adviser like Bettermint  exist in Germany as well. I know two, but never looked into the details:

Bonus tip: check out the 5 Ideen YouTube channel. They offer a great overview over several financial books.

I hope I could help you,
Ludger


Germanal

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Re: How to invest and what to expect - German
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2017, 02:31:35 AM »
thank you for your reply. That helps a lot and provides me with something to read :)

As a German living in the US I can say that the problem with Germans is less the saving part but the investing part that is absolutely lacking.
You can propel yourself in front of 90%+ of your compatriots by understanding and then also regularly investing into index funds.
Don't believe what your neighbors are saying about the risk of stock buying. They have most likely no clue about it.
The number one reason that the average German has such a low net worth despite a booming economy with decent salaries is the fact that the majority of their savings is rotting away in checking- and savings account with zero yield (negative after inflation)

Now to the facts:

Vanguard ETF's are avaiable in Germany too.
You just need a broker.
You can for example open an interactivebrokers account:
https://www.interactivebrokers.com/de/home.php
and afterwards buy European based Vanguard ETF funds with virtually no cost.
The most easy thing is a single ETF the Vanguard All World fund in its European based version:
https://global.vanguard.com/portal/site/loadPDF?country=de&docId=1549
If you learn a little bit more you can put your money in three or four different Vanguard ETF's to optimize fees and enable better balancing.
If you are interested in a German style MM page/forum you can have a look here:
http://freiheitsmaschine.com/

Yes, germans are really good at saving. Especially in the zone I`m born, we are generally known to be "economical and not wasteful"

There is still a difference between buying stocks from one company and hoping for increases = risky
and investing in large index funds, maybe in real estate funds and so on. That is why I`m here. I don`t believe in that stigma!

Thanks for the links. With my current online bank I should also be able to buy those vanguard etfs.

Gonna check out your site.

Germanal

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Re: How to invest and what to expect - German
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2017, 02:58:21 AM »
Hello Dear Neighbor,

Haha good to see we are not the only one country getting f*cked by "mandatory TV service"

I am also pretty much a beginner in investing,

as Maschinist said, you should be able to have access to a large range of ETF in Germany. I have a lot of ETF available here in France. Personally I use my online banking account to invest in those ETF, I can buy American ETFs like the SP500 index and European indexes too.

With investments like that you could easily rely on 4% (and this super safe considering the American market averages 7% per year with inflation)

Guten Abend!

Yes, the crazy part about that TV service is... I never watch any TV channels. 0 minutes in the last 3 years and they also upload their shows to netflix (which you have to pay for aswell), so you pay twice for stuff you don`t want!
I have an online bank, which enables me to invest by myself. Just not sure if I can also invest in vanguard etfs with that bank, but I will check it out!



Hi,

I am from Germany as well, so I can relate to you.

Starting with you monthly bills, I cannot see much room to improve, but there still is some room:
1) Internet for 35€
I pay currently about 15€ for my Telekom 16.000 DSL (the best I can get... High speed wasteland...) and lately I saw an even cheaper offer for a Vodafone 100 Mbit line on MyDealz: https://www.mydealz.de/deals/vodafone-internet-phone-cable-100-oder-unitymedia-2play-jump-120-ab-rechn-10-eur-monat-gratis-sonos-play1-971825

Since you have time to shop around, I would recommend watching this page for offers.

I need a high speed internet connection for uploading and streaming. Also vodafone has huge lag spikes or bad latency for games sometimes. Also I΄m living in a small town and most of the providers do not offer a highspeed internet connection. I might be able to save 10€ at most for my 100 mbit, but I would risk a lot in order to do so. Thanks for the advice.

2) Cellphone for 45€
I don't know the details of you contract, but you can get 3 GB with unlimited texts and minutes, without shopping around, for 10€ per month. Based on this, your contract forces you to buy a new smartphone every two years for 24*35=840€. That's very expansive and not a bargain.
You could buy last years model (the S7, a phenomenal device, is available for around 379€) or only upgrade when and if it's really necessary and save these 35 extra Euro every month.
Combining the cell service and the smartphone in one contract makes even less sense, since you can easily afford to buy the S8 if you want to. And I am pretty sure that you won't have to pay 840€ for it.

Yes there are contracts that are cheaper, but I got the most recent Samsung (in that case the Galaxy S6 back then) for 45€ Month, as you can see I`m paying the 35*24 + the 10€ already. If I wouldn`t need a contract right now, I can use one free number from my Internet contract (which is currently used by my dad). I can`t save more here.

3) Your car
Switch to a smaller, used, gasoline car. This will reduce taxes and insurance.

I always buy used cars. There is the option to move closer to my working place, but that would be rather stupid. I don`t want to live there, and I don`t know how long I will work there.
With my new car I get my gasoline costs down to 100€ / month. There is also an important thing about driving that most people neglect on the MMM site. Being in motion, provides you the best ideas and driving can be something good too. I don`t have any traffic blocks, I put on a podcast and learn something. It frees my mind and I have fun while driving. Not having a car is currently no option. In total I pay 2000€-2200€ / year for the car (maintenance, insurance, taxes, gasoline, wheels, without considering any repairs. Yes it would be the best option to save the most money from.


Now regarding your last question:
We have quite a few good financial bloggers in Germany:
  • Finanzrocker.net
  • Finanzwesir.com
  • Zendepot.de
to only name three.

If you are looking for books, the blogs often have a book section. Many classics are also available in German, like Rich Dad, Poor Dad. If you are looking for something more practical, check out "Souverδn investieren mit Index-Fonds" from Gerd Kommer (https://www.amazon.de/Souver%C3%A4n-investieren-Indexfonds-ETFs-Privatanleger/dp/3593395428).

You can invest in ETFs, all you need is a broker. The magic word is Sparplan, with a saving plan you can buy the ETFs monthly with little or no fees.

Robo Adviser like Bettermint  exist in Germany as well. I know two, but never looked into the details:

Bonus tip: check out the 5 Ideen YouTube channel. They offer a great overview over several financial books.

I hope I could help you,
Ludger




Amazing sources. Thank you

farfromfire

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Re: How to invest and what to expect - German
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2017, 05:12:24 AM »
I have an online bank, which enables me to invest by myself. Just not sure if I can also invest in vanguard etfs with that bank, but I will check it out!

N26? They take waaay too much in fees: https://docs.n26.com/legal/n26-invest/n26-pricing-invest-en.pdf
And no, they do not work with Vanguard, their 5 funds have much higher expense ratios (a mix of 0.20%-0.70%, so 0.45% for a portfolio balanced in their funds).

Feivel2000

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Re: How to invest and what to expect - German
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2017, 06:09:08 AM »
1) Internet for 35€
Quote from: Germanal
I need a high speed internet connection for uploading and streaming. Also vodafone has huge lag spikes or bad latency for games sometimes. Also I΄m living in a small town and most of the providers do not offer a highspeed internet connection. I might be able to save 10€ at most for my 100 mbit, but I would risk a lot in order to do so. Thanks for the advice.

I switched recently from O² DLS to Telekom DSL and save roughly 15€ per month. They both use the same (Telkom) wires for delivering DSL so the service is basically the same. But I have no need for low latency and (unfortunately) no high speed option available.

2) Cellphone for 45€
Quote from: Germanal
Yes there are contracts that are cheaper, but I got the most recent Samsung (in that case the Galaxy S6 back then) for 45€ Month, as you can see I`m paying the 35*24 + the 10€ already. If I wouldn`t need a contract right now, I can use one free number from my Internet contract (which is currently used by my dad). I can`t save more here.

Sorry. No. You are wrong. You can save A SHITLOAD of money here.
You have paid 35*24=840€ for your Galaxy S6.
In April 2015, the month of the release, you could buy the S6 for 594€ (savings: 246€).
In Mai 2015: 560€ (savings: 280€)
In June 2015: 500€ (savings: 340€)

And for the Galaxy S8 it will be similar. You will pay the absolute maximum possible for the device.
And these savings are only under the assumption that you need the latest flagship phone the moment it is released. If you could "settle" for a S7 which is a very good device, you could save even more.

3) Your car
Quote from: Germanal
I always buy used cars. There is the option to move closer to my working place, but that would be rather stupid. I don`t want to live there, and I don`t know how long I will work there.
With my new car I get my gasoline costs down to 100€ / month. There is also an important thing about driving that most people neglect on the MMM site. Being in motion, provides you the best ideas and driving can be something good too. I don`t have any traffic blocks, I put on a podcast and learn something. It frees my mind and I have fun while driving. Not having a car is currently no option. In total I pay 2000€-2200€ / year for the car (maintenance, insurance, taxes, gasoline, wheels, without considering any repairs. Yes it would be the best option to save the most money from.

I am not advertising having no car but a smaller car. But one can clearly see that you love your car and enjoy driving around and that's totaly fine. Just be sure that you know that you used 18.000€ car is a luxury and lifestyle item.


Germanal

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Re: How to invest and what to expect - German
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2017, 04:04:34 AM »
I have an online bank, which enables me to invest by myself. Just not sure if I can also invest in vanguard etfs with that bank, but I will check it out!

N26? They take waaay too much in fees: https://docs.n26.com/legal/n26-invest/n26-pricing-invest-en.pdf
And no, they do not work with Vanguard, their 5 funds have much higher expense ratios (a mix of 0.20%-0.70%, so 0.45% for a portfolio balanced in their funds).

Ing-Diba. I bought 6 books, about finance and investing, thanks to many recommendations and I`m reading all the MMM posts from the get go (only he ones which could benefit me)

Can`t tell you how much fees they take right now...

Germanal

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Re: How to invest and what to expect - German
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2017, 04:13:06 AM »
1) Internet for 35€
Quote from: Germanal
I need a high speed internet connection for uploading and streaming. Also vodafone has huge lag spikes or bad latency for games sometimes. Also I΄m living in a small town and most of the providers do not offer a highspeed internet connection. I might be able to save 10€ at most for my 100 mbit, but I would risk a lot in order to do so. Thanks for the advice.

I switched recently from O² DLS to Telekom DSL and save roughly 15€ per month. They both use the same (Telkom) wires for delivering DSL so the service is basically the same. But I have no need for low latency and (unfortunately) no high speed option available.

2) Cellphone for 45€
Quote from: Germanal
Yes there are contracts that are cheaper, but I got the most recent Samsung (in that case the Galaxy S6 back then) for 45€ Month, as you can see I`m paying the 35*24 + the 10€ already. If I wouldn`t need a contract right now, I can use one free number from my Internet contract (which is currently used by my dad). I can`t save more here.

Sorry. No. You are wrong. You can save A SHITLOAD of money here.
You have paid 35*24=840€ for your Galaxy S6.
In April 2015, the month of the release, you could buy the S6 for 594€ (savings: 246€).
In Mai 2015: 560€ (savings: 280€)
In June 2015: 500€ (savings: 340€)

And for the Galaxy S8 it will be similar. You will pay the absolute maximum possible for the device.
And these savings are only under the assumption that you need the latest flagship phone the moment it is released. If you could "settle" for a S7 which is a very good device, you could save even more.

3) Your car
Quote from: Germanal
I always buy used cars. There is the option to move closer to my working place, but that would be rather stupid. I don`t want to live there, and I don`t know how long I will work there.
With my new car I get my gasoline costs down to 100€ / month. There is also an important thing about driving that most people neglect on the MMM site. Being in motion, provides you the best ideas and driving can be something good too. I don`t have any traffic blocks, I put on a podcast and learn something. It frees my mind and I have fun while driving. Not having a car is currently no option. In total I pay 2000€-2200€ / year for the car (maintenance, insurance, taxes, gasoline, wheels, without considering any repairs. Yes it would be the best option to save the most money from.

I am not advertising having no car but a smaller car. But one can clearly see that you love your car and enjoy driving around and that's totaly fine. Just be sure that you know that you used 18.000€ car is a luxury and lifestyle item.

2) Having a good cellphone is not a luxury for me (in general it is), but I need the cellphone for my side business (youtube, travel etc)
That is one reason to have a good cellphone right (the galaxy S6 fills that need already, no need to upgrade)

I have a special situation with my contract, which I cannot get into, but even if I wouldn`t have that... I could still just take the Galaxy S8 and immediately sell it and stick with my S6


3) Yes the car is a luxury. Don`t forget one thing. Cheaper cars are mostly more dangerous aswell, if you ever got into a car crash, you will respect this investment a little more.
Anyhow, as I`ve said, my car would be the best way to save the most money right now.

Edit: I wanna add something to the car topic. I would not have a car, if I wouldn`t be working. There is always the option to sell the car after I retire (retirement in itself will give me the freedom to do what I love, without the need in getting paid for it)
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 04:23:31 AM by Germanal »

Feivel2000

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Re: How to invest and what to expect - German
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2017, 04:28:33 AM »


2) Having a good cellphone is not a luxury for me (in general it is), but I need the cellphone for my side business (youtube, travel etc)
That is one reason to have a good cellphone right (the galaxy S6 fills that need already, no need to upgrade)

I have a special situation with my contract, which I cannot get into, but even if I wouldn`t have that... I could still just take the Galaxy S8 and immediately sell it and stick with my S6.

Now I am curious, what makes this contract so special?


Ayanka

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Re: How to invest and what to expect - German
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2017, 04:47:05 AM »
Germanal, I work in a company that makes food supplements. Honestly, unless you have a deficiency there is little to no use taking food supplements. Yes, they claim to have all kinds of nice effects. Let's just put it this way, if you have had an iron deficiency several times in your life and you are feeling tired, by all means take iron supplements. But don't take them just because. Just try to be really diligent with your food if this is important to you, it should give you all the nutritients you need. Am I saying to stop cold turkey? No, but at least find out if you can make do with less than €24 a month.

And yes, I do take food supplements in winter. I have had a vit D deficiency in the past and I don't like most products it naturally is in. There is no way in hell I am paying €24 a year for it.

And oh yeah, ignore the brands. For the Belgian market, there is a pretty big chance they get made at the same place, whether it is brand name or not.

Germanal

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Re: How to invest and what to expect - German
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2017, 02:11:50 AM »


2) Having a good cellphone is not a luxury for me (in general it is), but I need the cellphone for my side business (youtube, travel etc)
That is one reason to have a good cellphone right (the galaxy S6 fills that need already, no need to upgrade)

I have a special situation with my contract, which I cannot get into, but even if I wouldn`t have that... I could still just take the Galaxy S8 and immediately sell it and stick with my S6.

Now I am curious, what makes this contract so special?

It is not replicable and an error from the contractor :D

Germanal

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Re: How to invest and what to expect - German
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2017, 02:27:38 AM »
Germanal, I work in a company that makes food supplements. Honestly, unless you have a deficiency there is little to no use taking food supplements. Yes, they claim to have all kinds of nice effects. Let's just put it this way, if you have had an iron deficiency several times in your life and you are feeling tired, by all means take iron supplements. But don't take them just because. Just try to be really diligent with your food if this is important to you, it should give you all the nutritients you need. Am I saying to stop cold turkey? No, but at least find out if you can make do with less than €24 a month.

And yes, I do take food supplements in winter. I have had a vit D deficiency in the past and I don't like most products it naturally is in. There is no way in hell I am paying €24 a year for it.

And oh yeah, ignore the brands. For the Belgian market, there is a pretty big chance they get made at the same place, whether it is brand name or not.

I`m a nutritionist / bodybuilder.

I tried many many supplements over the years and could nail it down to only a few, after reading a lot of studies, that actually help.
Afterwards I checked where I can get the highest quality (if even needed for that supplement) for the best price.

Supps I currently use...

Krilloil (not taking any if I eat fish, taking half of the usual dosage since my diet is anti inflammatory already)
ZMA (Zinc and Magnesium)
Vitamin D3 (during winter)
Whey Protein (is cheaper than food, I buy the 2.5-5kg boxes and add it for flavoring or to add protein, cheapest protein source there is...)
BCAAs (after current studies... this is out)
Apple Cidar Vinegar (good stuff, one glass of water with it per day)
Probiotics (won`t be buying it again)
Vitamin C (have it at home, but I΄m only taking it when I feel getting sick or have had a day, where I know I could get sick)


I don`t think 24 € are a lot.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 02:29:30 AM by Germanal »

Feivel2000

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Re: How to invest and what to expect - German
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2017, 02:38:17 AM »
Well, I doubt that this contractor error is worth 20€/month.

I wouldn't worry about the supplements, do it myself (mainly fish oil and vitamin D).
I am surprised you don't use Kreatin.

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