need help prioritizing

[mamabear18]

Hello

[mbl]

I roughly calculated $3900 a month for all the expenses that you've listed.
With $4700 every two weeks that's about $10k a month.
UPDATE:  saw your double thread post and seed that it's $4700/month....got it.

1. Are you putting some of that into savings every month?

2. I would strongly suggest that you increase your 401(k) contributions.
I suspect that you could max it out to 18500 without to much of a hit to your family budget.
7% would appear to be about right for now.  In your tax bracket it might make better sense to fully fund your Roth IRA and then put the balance in your 401(k) each year.    The tax advantage for your family is small.

3. Why are you short on cash when rent comes due based on $4700 every two weeks.
It would seem that you would have more than enough to pay with some left over?
Perhaps doing a detailed tracking of spending would identify exactly where your money is going and can be very helpful is plugging any leaks.


4.  Using your bonus to buy "stuff" isn't very clear and that seems like a great deal of money to buy "stuff" with when you
are considering home ownership down the road.

5.  If you live in a place like NYC or San Francisco or any other HCOLA market, maybe putting off purchasing a home until you move to a lower COLA would make more sense?

[Linea_Norway]

Groceries - about $180-$200 week (this can include paper towels, paper plates, toilet paper, sometimes beer).  I could do a better job of keeping track of this. I shop at walmart mostly so I'm getting the best prices.

As you mention them specifically, do you use paper plates a lot? Can you not wash off normal or plastic plates?

Sling tv - $45
Netflix $11

Isn't this double TV? Can you cut out one, or both?

Gym member for 1 person = $30

Do exercises at home and run outside?

Spend $ 124 about once every other month on housecleaning.

Can the stay at home parent do this instead?

$spend about $100 every other month on babysitting

Sounds like quite a lot. Do you so often do things without your children? Can you hire a cheaper person (teenage girl?)

I don't have a grasp on how much we eat out - but I'd guess about once or twice a week.  Mostly cook all meals.

We eat out maybe once a month. 1-2 a week is often in my book.

We don't really save money biweekly. My paycheck goes to bills and if we have leftover money, we use it to go out, eat out , activities for kids, lunch for working parent, occasional toy for kids. 

This sounds like you are spending the money because it is there. This is your big saving potential. Look at MMM's calculation on what your occasional cup of coffee costs you after 10 years. All this leftover money, counted on a whole year and on 10 years, invested in funds, could have generated some nice money. Start being in saving modus all the time.

2.  Should I be saving more for college?  How much should I save?  We only have an account for 1 child now.  I am open to having them work and save their own money as well.  I would like to help some, but retirement is my priority over college. 

In that case, no.

3.  Should i pay off the car?

Can you swap the car for a cheaper one that doesn't need a loan?

4.  Cash is in ING direct.  I'm scared to put it into mutual funds now b/c ithe market is so high. Should i put cash money into mutual funds or hold it til the market crashes?  IF you think I should put into mutual funds now regardless of where the market is - how much do you recommend? Most of that cash is for a down payment for a house.

The stock market is not a good place to invest for a very short period. We know the stock market will go up and down and you don't want to lose a lot of money on short term.

7.  I hate keeping a budget which is why i don't have a huge handle on expenses after bills. I'd guess we have about $500 left over after bills.

The best way to save money is to track your expenses. Just track absolutely everything and question everything you buy. See if you could have done without it. Compare from month to month in the different categories and get the numbers down for each month.

[Marley09]

***I moved from the other thread to keep everything in one***

Hello! Doing some rough calculations, it looks like you have around $800 unaccounted for every month, which is not including the $15k-$30k bonus.  That is $9700 a year!  I think that you really need to start keeping a budget and find out how much you are actually spending on travel, the kids, eating out, etc.  Since your spouse is home, would they be willing to do the cleaning or a part of the cleaning?  This would save you $1488 a year. 

1. Have you looked into housing in a specific Midwest location?  Would you keep the same job and same pay? Would your spouse start working after the move? Personally, I would do a quick breakdown of how a move would impact my bottom line for better or worse- factoring in different options like rent vs. buy, overall cost of living, etc. 
2. I think that you need to focus on your retirement.  Your children will be able to get loans for college, but you cannot get loans to retire.
3. I would.  This will give you $358 a month or $4296 a year to invest.
4. This sounds like market timing to me, but maybe another poster can address where you put downpayment $.
5. I can't give you specific advice on when your spouse goes back to work, as that is so personal to your family, but my husband and I both work and have 2 kids.  It takes some planning and work, but the small details typically fall into place.  What are your biggest concerns in this area?

It sounds like you are on a good path with the changes you have already made, but you should really start to keep a budget to see where all of your money is going.

-Marley

[Mezzie]

Some easy cuts:
-Sling TV
-eating out (make it a once a month event instead)
-housekeeper

Other ideas:
-$58 is a lot for just one cell phone. See if you can negotiate something cheaper
-Track your spending -- every penny. You can't make real changes until you know where your money is going.
- I'd hold off on the college funding, personally. It's something you can revisit when you have two incomes again.
-That's a pretty big car payment. What's the interest rate? That will determine if you need to pay it off early or not.

[AMandM]

We don't really save money biweekly. My paycheck goes to bills and if we have leftover money, we use it to go out, eat out , activities for kids, lunch for working parent, occasional toy for kids.  We only save when we get our bonus.  Also, if we run out of money, which we usually do with rent paycheck, then we will use the credit card but pay it off every month.

My first suggestion would be this:
The next paycheck, if you have leftover money after paying the bills, don't go out, don't eat out, don't buy lunch at work, don't take the kids to activities, don't get any toys. Keep that money for two weeks, so at the following paycheck you can pay the rent and all the bills without running out of money.   

We also use some money to buy air tickets to visit family out of state.  We usually use southwest points so we get 1 free ticket a year and pay out of pocket for other tix.  Usually get cheap fares.
We also use some bonus money for a weekend getaway that costs about $800 a year.

Take home after taxes and deductions is about $4,700 every 2 weeks month.

I agree with Marley09, your total listed spending comes to under $4000 a month.  If you aren't saving anything biweekly, then you must be spending far more than you realize. I know it is a pain, but you will really have to track your spending in more detail if you want to figure out where there are changes to be made.

To your questions:
1. Personally, I would not move to the Midwest just because housing is cheaper. If you have family/friends there, if there's a particular place you would like to live, if there are job opportunities for your husband, then I'd start looking for jobs there and researching salary vs COL differentials.  Once you have a good job offer, then you can decide rent or buy based on the conditions in that place at that time.  However, I would not necessarily require that a house be paid off before retiring; if you don't buy, you'll have to pay rent in retirement.

2. Having only 1 college account (I'm assuming it's a 529) is not a problem, because you can change the beneficiary later on if necessary, or create a second account and transfer some of the money over.  If you want to save more for college, you should run some numbers projecting your retirement funds at your current contribution rate, making some assumptions about your husband's future income and contributions, and see how much leeway you have.

3. Unless the car is on a 0% loan, I would pay it off with some of your cash.

4. As a general principle, not based on predictions of an imminent crash, the market (including mutual funds) is too volatile for money that is likely to be used within a couple of years. I would put it into CDs myself.

5. I can't offer any practical advice as the only time we had two full-time working parents our household life was chaos. Can your husband do some part-time or occasional gig work?

6. Even in your HCOL place, you are living on one income. That's great! When your husband eventually starts making money, you guys will be able to seriously up your savings rate as long as you don't cheat yourselves through lifestyle creep.
 

7.  I hate keeping a budget which is why i don't have a huge handle on expenses after bills. I'd guess we have about $500 left over after bills.

This is a psychological hurdle you will have to commit yourself to getting over if you want to make real progress.  You cannot redirect your money if you don't know where it's going now. I hate it too, so I do sympathize!  It's one of the unpleasant parts of life, like cleaning the bathroom floor, that have to get done.  As noted above, your total listed spending is about $700 less than your monthly income, so if you are estimating that you spend $500  a month on unspecified other things, you're off by 40%.

Changes I made recently = stop eating out for work lunches. Packing more of my meals. If I do pay for lunch its $5 at subway.
I cancelled amazon prime - their rates go up as of dec. for us and it is not longer worth it.
Started grocery shopping at walmart to save.
Cooking at home more. Preplanning meals and precooking.

Eating out less is huge, congrats!  It saves a lot of money, and it also exercises your badassity muscles, which will make you stronger and ready to take on harder challenges... such as tracking your spending.

[formerlydivorcedmom]

I never tracked spending either.  I was a little afraid of what I'd see.

Then, thanks to this site, I discovered Mint.com.  It's free, it's by the same people who make TurboTax, and it talks to pretty much all of your accounts to put all of your spending and saving in one snapshot for you.  This works great for me since 95% of my spending is on credit cards that I pay off each month.

It was eye-opening to find out how much we were spending and where.  Rather than feel guilty about where the money was going, we asked ourselves whether that spending was valuable to us.  We eat out about once a week...and that is worth the cost to us.  DishNetwork....that wasn't worth it.  Random shopping at Walmart/Target/Amazon....not worth it.  We are much more targeted with our spending now, and it leads to a lot less guilt.

I've been tracking spending now for 2 years, and we're still making adjustments.  We adjust to one change (like you did, with making your own lunches) and then make another one.

Whether the second parent goes back to work and when is soooo personal.  Some spouses are stay-at-home parents forever.  I was a SAHM for the first 9 months of my daughter's life and was so overwhelmed I went back to work.  My husband quit work to go back to school and be a part-time SAHD when the kids were 6-9.  Now he's working again.  You do what is best for your family, which is not necessarily what is best for any other family out there.

[Tuskalusa]

Totally agree with tracking spending. It’s a necessary evil, in my book. I kind of hat3 seeing what we spent and where, especially in crazy months, but I’ve found it’s essential. We use YNAB to track monthly spending (not free, but very reasonable).  We use Mint to track the big picture (all bank and investment accounts, as well as credit card and mortgage). I get a lot of comfort from understanding exactly where we’re at.

I’m gonna be in-mustacian and say that the housekeeper is probably a good investment in sanity, given that you’re living in a small apartment with 2 small children. The SAHP already has a full time job, as does the working parent. This sounds like a bi-monthly “reset” that allows the family to maintain on the off months.

I wonder if there might be some kind of part time flexible job that would allow the SAHP to pick up a little income, as well and start developing some skills when they want to get back into the workforce. Might be worth exploring.

And yeah, I’d pay off the car. Saves on interest and gives some “breathing room” each month.

Please keep posting on your progress. :)

[AMandM]

Oh, another small suggestion: could your husband find a babysitting co-op so the two of you can go out without having to pay? I have teenagers who babysit and in our HCOL area the going rate is $10-12/hr (for teenagers!!!), so I'm not surprised at what you spend.

It's probably trickier for him, because some people are not willing to have a man babysit their kids, but it's worth investigating. Who knows, there may even be a SAHD network near you.

[robartsd]

AmandM- I’ve thought about a babysitting co op with friends- but I have a fear about my 2 year old getting hurt with so many kids and only 1 babysitter.  I also have a hard time bc my friends have had major accidents with their small kids and I don’t want anything to happen to mine. My friends have 2-3 kids of their own and to add 2 more to the mix is scary.  I pay $15 an hour for babysitting for 2 kids and that’s a deal in California.

              Thank you for suggestions. I will try to do that.  When I see leftover money - it tempts me to spend.  Out of curiosity- why wouldn’t you move to the Midwest?  Part of it for us is being closer to family, buying a house so we can have controlled housing expenses, if we sell, some of the money will be returned to us and we can use in retirement.  Also, I will never be able to buy a house in California. 1 million for areas with good public schools or my other option is to buy for $800,000 for crappy schools and put my kids in private school which there is no way I can afford any of that.

$15/hr is a good rate for a babysitter in California, especially in an area where housing is as expensive as you quote (your housing pricing sounds like you're most likely in the Bay Area - statewide median home price is about $540k).

Mezzie-  we have looked into less expensive cell phone plans but we have found that this is a pretty good deal considering what we get.  Switching would only save us a few dollars where we live and it would require buying a new phone bc my husbands phone is so old.  We also need the good reception bc we live in a building that provides crappy reception with other carriers.  I also feel bad for my hubby bc he is at home all day with 2 little kids and it’s his only toy.  Maybe I’m being a sucker.  Interest rate is 1% on car.  Again, we bought this before kids and agreed we have this car until it dies.  It’s was my husband’s first time having a new car.  He has always had an old used car.  Maybe my husband is spoiled lol.

Which carrier do you require? I use Page Plus Cellular to save a bundle on my phone while still using Verizon's towers. If you phone is paid off and you're not under contract, you should be able to take it over to a VMNO that uses the same network and get basically the same coverage (often the VMNOs don't participate in the primary carrier's roaming agreements). If the phone is old, they won't "support" it, but it should still work. My current phone is about 10 years old.

Linda Norway- I may have answered some of your questions above.  I would love to cancel all tv but my husband refuses bc he is a sports freak.  I don’t think I can win.  He watches way too much tv. I could care less about tv. 

If you don't have cable, just Sling TV and Netflix, you're already ahead of most people and maybe this isn't a battle worth fighting. If Sling TV and Netflix are on top of cable I'd try to convince husband that you don't need all three. Do you get any over the air TV (we use a PVR to record free TV and don't subscribe to any service)? I would try to convince husband to select 1 TV service that provides the most value and figure out how to make due without the others.

Ok-  so like I mentioned earlier- Idug deep into my spending for August and it’s worse than I thought. 
I have spent about $850 on groceries so far since the last week of July ( used my payday as a starting point as I get paid every 2weeks. )  I haven’t even gone this weekend yet so i plan to add to that number.

I spent about $500 on eating out- much worse than I thought. Lots of unnecessary spending when taking kids out.

Check out https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/have-a-sub-$200month-grocery-budget/ for ideas on how to get your food spending way down.

There were some misealleaneous amazon things I bought- don’t even know why.  I bought a planter to grow my own herbs bc I was bored :/

Growing your own herbs isn't a bad idea, purchasing things because you are bored is a very bad idea. Herbs grow just fine in whatever plastic containers you would be throwing out anyway (just poke some holes in the bottom and put it on the lid to catch runoff. Make decorating the containers a project you do with your kids.

I know I can do better than that.  My challenge is that I never know how much I really have. When I see money in the account - my brain says - oh it’s ok to buy a cofeee because I need to treat myself.  Or if I have a bad day and my hubby looks tired- I say oh you look like you need a break- let’s order take out. Or oh we schedule d a haircut at 5:00 pm and we don’t have time for dinner. Let’s get takeout.

Perhaps you just need a "treats" budget. Treat's aren't fun when you feel guilty about them. Set an amount, set it aside, track it, and ENJOY it. For the just don't have time to cook, figure out some meals to put in the freezer that you can go to.

I want to track my spending but need help on what I should actually be doing.  It took me over an hour to track august spending and it was so tedious,

Please share how you guys do it. I already have a mint account and up,landed accounts- I just don’t know what to do.

Thank you everyone for your ideas and suggestions. Very helpful.

There are lots of budgeting methods, the trick is to find one that works for you and stick with it. I find that this is much harder when there are two people sharing the budget.

I've seen a lot of people who use the cash in envelopes method - they withdraw cash for all their discretionary spending and put budgeted amounts into envelopes for each budget category. The benefit is that you know immediately when the category goes over budget. One con is that this is not compatible with using credit cards to earn rewards. When single and in college I used Budget from Snowmint CS to simulate an envelop system, but data entry became too tedious as our financial life became more complicated after I married and graduated.

Mint is great in that it automatically captures transactions on your accounts. Unfortunately, you're back to the data entry problem with cash and I don't carry a device that has internet access in order to record on the spot. Also I find Mint's automatic categorization hit-and-miss enough that I feel to effectively use it's budgeting feature I still have to log in weekly to review transactions. This is as close as we've come. If you find you only have a few problem categories, you can carefully budget those and let Mint's automated tracking be good enough for the rest.

With just over half a million in retirement accounts, you're doing pretty well if you move to a LCOL area. By the time you pay off a house, compounding alone might get you to FI. Good luck.

[mrmoonymartian]

...my husband can’t clean m-f bc kids are really small and at home full time. His hands are full.

...Maybe I’m being a sucker.

...Maybe my husband is spoiled lol.

...He watches way too much tv.

...I clean the whole house on a Saturday while he watches the kids. MAybe I’m being unreasonable...

...if I have a bad day and my hubby looks tired- I say oh you look like you need a break- let’s order take out.

Hard to say how much of that is reasonable/unreasonable from here. Cherry-picking them like this certainly makes it look like a negative pattern is emerging.

I do think it would be reasonable to switch so that he cleans the whole house on a Saturday while you watch the kids. He gets to watch them all week while you are working. He could spread the cleaning out over the course of the week if he wants to watch sports on Saturday.

That one small change may make a big difference to your energy and stress levels.

[nessness]

A couple things I haven't seen mentioned:

1. Don't just assume Walmart is the cheapest for groceries - depending where you live, you might be able to get cheaper (and fresher!) food at local stores, especially ethnic grocery stores. If you happen to be in LA, Super King is great (or at least it was several years ago when I lived there).

2. Have a few 10-minute dinners in your back pocket so you don't resort to take-out so often. Scrambled eggs with toast and fruit, grilled cheese and a steamed veggies, etc.

[englishteacheralex]

I read the whole thread so I guess I'll pitch in some thoughts...

1. For context, we are: family of four, two full time jobs, a 4 year old and a 1.5 year old.

2. We live in Honolulu--extremely HCOL. We love it here--no escape hatch to the Midwest--and didn't want to pay $2k/month indefinitely to rent a 2 bedroom. So we bought a condo in a neighborhood that is just ok but does have good schools. $364k, $635/month maintenance fees. It's working for us really well; has appreciated about $60k in the last three years--just wanted to show that there are ways to get around really high housing markets. Or maybe we just got lucky.

3. We track everything on Mint in a compulsive kind of way. Every single day both of us log on to categorize expenses, even though the automation is decent. We set a detailed budget on there. Mint is awesome. I've been using it for about ten years.

4. You do you, but we don't bother with a housekeeper. We just team up to speed clean on the weekends and after dinner (about 1/2 an hour after dinner to polish up the kitchen and the floors, and then about 2 hours over the weekend on laundry, trash, etc.). We don't worry about the fact that the place looks kinda not awesome a lot of the time. It's fine. Having an 850 square foot condo REALLY helps with not having to spend a lot of time on cleaning.

5. We cook almost all our meals at home. The freezer is our best friend. Most of our cooking is done on the weekends in massive batches and then thawed out and eaten over the week. This process can be skipped some weekends if we are going out to do something fun. My point is that it's very do-able to trim that food budget.

6. We have a pretty decent network of friends with whom we exchange babysitting. Also have some teenagers who will watch both kids for $10/hour. It helps that I'm a teacher--I have a lot of contacts with teenagers. Try posting on facebook. I've also had excellent luck with finding babysitters there (there are facebook pages that cater to military--find them! Military wives are awesome for babysitting!).

7. Beater cars are a key part of our strategy. We have two. Both were under $5k to buy and haven't given us any trouble. I've been driving beaters since...my whole life. Honestly I've never had a bad experience, but I also do my research carefully before the buy.

8. Cell phone: buy a refurbished one. In July I got an iPhone 6s from Walmart (they now sell refurbished!) for $189. Both DH and I have the AT&T Go phone deal that is $40/month each. Nicer phone and a cheaper plan with very good coverage. There you go.

9. Read Amy Dacycyn. She's awesome for tips on groceries and lots of other stuff, too.

Good luck! Track that spending! It's the most important change you can make. The awareness is what gives you the motivation to change.

[Linea_Norway]

If leftover money is burning in your pocket, then maybe you should transfer a certain amount to a savings account the day after you received it. Based on the tracking of your spending, you can now make a plan for how much you want to save each month. Put that money somewehere else so you don't see it all the time.
You already did get scared of how much you are spending. That is why you should continue tracking this and become aware of your habits. Then you can start making improvements. Pick an anrea and try to spend less on it next month.

To track your spending, there are some automated systems like Mint. Or you can use an app where you track manually. Or you make your own in excel after an export of you transactions.

[Tuskalusa]

I found this cool tutorial on how to set up a budget in Mint. Hope this helps!
https://youtu.be/5nH4Dhw_UQ0

Tracking expenses can be stressful. I also tend to look at our expenses and cringe. But I just tell myself, “At least I know the whole picture...now I can figure out what to do next.”

[AMandM]

The kind of babysitting co-op I was thinking of involved people babysitting your kids only, not their own as well, and you later babysitting only their kids. But under the circumstances, I understand your reluctance!

When I see leftover money - it tempts me to spend. 

Ah, but the thing is, it's not really leftover, is it?  It's needed--for the bills or groceries in a rent pay cycle, or for retirement, or for savings.  Happily, you can fairly easily reduce the temptation by hiding this money from yourself. Maybe set up an automatic transfer from the account your paycheck goes into to a separate savings account, so that every payday $X disappears from view.

Out of curiosity- why wouldn’t you move to the Midwest?  Part of it for us is being closer to family, buying a house so we can have controlled housing expenses, if we sell, some of the money will be returned to us and we can use in retirement.  Also, I will never be able to buy a house in California.

Sorry, I don't think I was clear.  It's not that I would never move to the Midwest; in fact, there are aspects of it that really appeal to me. But I wouldn't decide to relocate *just* because of lower house prices. I would have to have other reasons as well, such as being closer to family, better weather, more congenial social climate, better job prospects, etc.

Any tips on getting over the psychological hurdle? [snip]  I need help with how to track spending regularly. What do I do? How often? I’ve used mint but don’t get how that helps.  Any tricks to making it a habit?  I agree I have to track it. 

What makes it possible for me is to have a system with a very low "barrier to entry." The easier it is to record an expense, the more likely I am actually to do it. We used to keep an excel spreadsheet on the family computer, but that meant that every entry required that (a) the computer had to be free (b) I had to boot Excel--and that was too big an overhead to be worth doing for every single purchase. Now I use pen and paper, which is super simple for recording spending, but it does mean more work when doing the monthly totals.  Ideally I record each day's expenses that day. When I remember to do it first thing after dinner, that helps a lot. Usually each month I go back over the month's credit card statement, amazon orders page, and check register to make sure I haven't missed anything.
If I had a smartphone or tablet, I'd probably go back to a computerized spreadsheet, because then I could enter each expense as soon as I incur it.
My daughter uses YNAB and highly recommends it. As I understand it, you divide up your money and assign it to categories in advance. Then when you enter an expense, that amount is deducted from the corresponding category. It's another way of hiding "leftover" money, because you could create a category of money for random spending and limit how much goes in there; the rest isn't leftover, even if it's not spent yet, because it's earmarked for other needs.

Ok-  so like I mentioned earlier- Idug deep into my spending for August and it’s worse than I thought.  [

Congrats on doing this! Yes, it's painful both to do the work and to see the results, but I hope you agree that the knowledge is worth it.

I have spent about $850 on groceries so far since the last week of July ( used my payday as a starting point as I get paid every 2weeks. )  I haven’t even gone this weekend yet so i plan to add to that number.

I spent about $500 on eating out- much worse than I thought. Lots of unnecessary spending when taking kids out.

Ouch!  Those are big numbers!  But the good news is that food is actually a pretty easy category in which to make big cuts.

Ways to cut down on eating out:
Keep water and trail mix or granola bars in the car, so if you're running late you can stave off hunger till you get home, rather than hitting a drive-thru.
Keep some quick and easy meals in the freezer or pantry for the nights when you're tired. This doesn't have to mean you make extra meals from scratch--frozen grocery-store pizza or a box of pasta and a jar of spaghetti sauce count!

Ways to cut down on your groceries:
Saving on groceries usually involves some form of paying less by doing some work yourself. It doesn't have to mean becoming a kitchen slave, though; because convenience is very expensive, you can often save significantly by doing a small amount of work.  Example: at my grocery store this week, whole zucchini cost $1.99/lb, but a 12-oz package of zucchini sliced lengthwise was $3.99.  So buy fruits and vegetables whole. Another example: Marinated pork tenderloin $6.99/lb, but plain whole tenderloin $2.99/lb. Buy the whole and a bottle or two of marinade.  Cut the tenderloin into 3-4 pieces and freeze the ones you don't cook this week. If you have more time, you could save more by making your own marinade.

Avoid single-serve packages of anything as much as possible. Make your own individual servings in ziplock baggies or tupperwares if necessary.  This is an area where a parent at home full-time can make a big difference.

The other work you can do to save on groceries is watching the flyers and building your menu and shopping list around the sales.  Last week, those whole zucchini were on sale for $0.99, and whole tenderloin is often down to $1.99.  Menu planning is (after tracking spending) my least favorite household-management task. Concentrating on the sale items makes it easier to choose what to have for dinner all week.

More broadly, I think it would also help in every are if you and your husband try to wean yourselves from the idea that you deserve to be treated.  We all deserve the basics, but none of us deserves treats.  I don't want to sound too Pollyannaish, but if I think about it, the "hard days" that make me feel tired are usually the result of having lots beyond the basics.  I'm tired because I had to drive [I have a car! I can go wherever I want whenever I want!] to the doctor [my country has the most advanced medical care in the world! I have insurance!], or because I've been chasing kids [I have children! they're healthy and active and curious!], or because I've been doing housework and maintenance [I have a secure roof over my head! I have skills!], or because I've been dealing with cranky customers [I have customers! I have income!].  Reorienting my thinking to focus on what I have, rather than what I don't, has been very helpful to me.

Keep going! You can do this!

[JCGreen]

Hey, I just wanted to say, I think you doing a decent job. It is hard to save money on one income, but you have over half a million.

As for investing, I would highly recommend you read J.L Collins blog, it contains some of the best advice I have ever read. It would also be worth your time to read the investing order on this forum for where to put money.

The biggest expenses in most people life is housing, transportation/cars, college education, and child care.

The good: Your child care expenses are low due to the stay at home spouse.
                It looks like all of your education has been paid for.

The Mediocre: Housing expenses are high, but probably appropriate for your area/needs. That being said, if you rent, it is easier to move, and if your kids are stay at home, the schools don't really matter. Will your 5 year old be starting school soon or be home-schooled? Housing will be much less expensive should you chose to move to the mid-west, and it might be worth taking a pay cut to do so.

Transportation costs are on the higher side, The choice to buy a new car is an expensive choice. Because the car is on a loan, you are  required to have more expensive insurance for it. I am not saying you need to sell the car, just recognize that this was an expensive decision.

It would be useful to have a talk with your spouse about what your long term goals are. Would you both like to be stay at home parents tomorrow? All you have to do is figure out how to live on $35k a year. Need more than $35K? What can you do to lower expenses and/or bring in more money to reach your goals in the time frame you would like? It seems to me you and your spouse don't have decided goals, and that can be the cause of disagreeing on what spending is important to you and what is not.

Others have gone through your list of expenses about how to save more money, but you don't seem to have taken them up on the suggestions. This suggests to me that you don't have a solid goal in mind for the money, as eating out to the tune of $500 a month is more important than your next financial goal. You don't have to take up all the suggestions, but you should know that some of these decisions are costing you money.

It is often easier to look at someone else life and see solutions of how to live life more efficiently, than it is to make these changes in our own life.  I am extremely guilty of this in my life. My housing costs are too high for my income, but I am unwilling to move, because I am looking for a job closer to my parents, and if I find one, I don't want to break a lease and deal with moving costs twice. During the last 6 months I have turned down one solid job offer and not changed my living situation. If I would have moved when I realized my housing costs were putting a damper on my savings, I could have saved an additional 15% of my take home pay.  These changes are hard to make, and it is easy to justify them with excuses (see above), but they are well worth making and they are easier to implement when people (your spouse) are on your side.

[Linea_Norway]

Marley09- my husband can’t clean m-f bc kids are really small and at home full time. His hands are full.  We usually clean on the weekends- I clean the whole house on a Saturday while he watches the kids. MAybe I’m being unreasonable, but I can’t muster deep cleaning the bathroom and kitchen regularly.  It’s too much work and I wouldnt be spending time with my kids.  After a day of cleaning after working full time I am dead tired and ignore my kids the rest of the day.  That doesn’t make me happy.
 

Would it be an idea that you and your husband alternate on cleaning the house on Saturday while the other one plays with the kids? Or that cleaning becomes his job, while you watch the kids?

[Freedomin5]

With regard to saving hubby’s income, and avoiding the temptation to spend it, consider setting up a monthly automatic transfer so that you don’t have an opportunity to spend the money once it hits your bank account. Also consider having his salary deposited in an account where the bank card is conveniently “lost” or frozen in a block of ice. We lived off DH’s income for several years and saved my income by having the salaries deposited in different accounts. I never brought my bank card and therefore made it more difficult for myself to spend that money.

[Freedomin5]

I also find no joy in tediously entering all my expenses. So what I did was figure out how much I spent each month, took out that amount in cash, and spent down the cash each month (similar to the envelope system but without the specific categories). Once the cash was gone, we made do with whatever was in our fridge/cupboard, and didn’t spend on anything extraneous, until the next month.

I still use a similar system by setting aside an amount in my online payment system. I don’t touch the money in my bank account. That all gets diverted into investments.

[elliha]

If your husband can't clean at all during the time he is at home he is either bullshitting you, has some kind of executive function disorder or is severely over parenting. A two-year old and a five year old should be able to play in one room without wrecking the world and he could go into another room and clean. The two year old might sleep for a while too? During that period at least some cleaning must be possible, like bathrooms or some other non-noisy task. Things always being perfect? No, but some cleaning should be able to happen every day. If my spouse was at home I would expect basic cleaning, doing laundry and dishes and cooking food some days of the week. I would tha ink it is OK to not cook sometimes and either leave that to the working parent or something frozen and on rare occasions take out or fast food. On days where he would do a full activity with the kids where they leave the home I would not expect cleaning but if you are not at home you also at least don't make a further mess. Also paper plates? If you are not camping I cannot see a single reason to use this. If the parent don't want to do the dishes they can teach the five year old to do everything but very heavy pans and sharp knives. There is no reason for paper plates in regular life.

With that said I don't think your finances are a disaster, you do seem to have somewhat control of things but I am sure you can do a lot with your costs if you just accept that some things are possible and can happen in your life. You might find it easier if you start small like "On Wednesdays you do cleaning for one hour and on Thursday dinner is ready when I get home". I don't know the specific details of your life but if you consistently work on the no cleaning issue your husband will see that this actually possible and you don't have to spend every moment cleaning during the weekends and you might not need to hire help either.

[bugbaby]

You don't give any highly specific goals other than not working forever. You have good savings, no major debts. You're in the trenches of parenthood of 2 very young kids.

Unless both you and spouse equally want or need an immediate change in direction for life or finances, what's wrong with your current state?

Sent from my KIW-L24 using Tapatalk

[Linea_Norway]

Linda Norway - his "reasoning" for me to do it is b/c its my mess. Any thoughts?
He also complains that he is the only one that takes the trash out.  Which is true  - but the bag is too heavy for me to carry and throw over the huge bin.  When I "cleaned" this past Saturday - I didn't deep clean the sink or stove to see if he would do it during the week without me asking.  Stay tuned.

I think your argument in this case should be that you need to be able to spend more time with your kids when they are young. Therefore you deserve a Saturday off, playing with the kids. If he argues, than every alternate Saturday.

He calls it your mess. Can it really be true that a man and 2 small children don't make any mess and don't make anything dirty? What about bathroom use? They use it many times more than you do.

[mrmoonymartian]

Linda Norway - his "reasoning" for me to do it is b/c its my mess. Any thoughts?
He also complains that he is the only one that takes the trash out.  Which is true  - but the bag is too heavy for me to carry and throw over the huge bin.  When I "cleaned" this past Saturday - I didn't deep clean the sink or stove to see if he would do it during the week without me asking.  Stay tuned.

Seriously, complaining about taking out the trash? When you are busting your ass working AND cleaning for the family? Sorry for your loss, assuming he used to be a decent husband. Hope you kept the receipt.

That said, your last idea to assess his powers of ESP isn't a fair test. I'm a man and we are seriously lacking in the mind-reading department.

You need to discuss the needs of the household and come to agreement. Maybe the deep-cleaning bit can be done every 2nd week, etc. Come up with a mutually acceptable plan to manage differing expectations and share the workload better.

Or else convince yourself that being a sucker forever isn't that bad, or start taking bets on how long until you part ways.

[robartsd]

Babybug- you are right. I don't have specific goals except for $1 million in 401k  and I think that will happen in 10 years.

Hopefully compounding alone would get you there in 10 years (513,000 * 1.07^10 ~= 1,000,0000).

     Regarding the state of California - I want to buy a house and I can' t buy a house here. I would have to move very far away to afford a home and have a Long commute which i definitely do not want. I mainly want to move so I can buy a house and have space. I live in a 2 bedroom apartment with a son and daughter who will need their own rooms at some point.  And if I stay in California - each room is $1000 a month. So if I stay here - my rent will go up significantly.  It is too expensive too live here. Also - schools are very competitive and many kids can't get into decent schools here even if they are super smart and involved in all activities. Too many people here and its getting worse.

California is a big state. I can understand not finding housing affordable in a reasonable distance from your current employment; and if you're changing employment anyway, you might as well look all over the country for the best fit. With family in other parts of the country, I certainly understand looking into moving closer to them.

[schmerna]

I encourage you to get the kids involved in the housework.  At 5, he will be able to fold laundry, vacuum, place dishes near sink at a minimum.  I recommend doing these things together a few times so he learns how to do it.  Put on some fun music for laundry folding.

By 3, the baby should be putting away toys and able to help with very small chores.

Good luck!

[tweezers]

A few thoughts on the cleaning: My husband is, and has always been, the at-home parent of our two children (now 7 and 9 years).  When my second was born I assumed it was impossible to simultaneously keep the children alive and maintain a tidy-ish house because I came home to a disaster every day (and I'm not a clean freak...but it sometimes looked like a tornado hit).  When they were 6months and 2.5 years old he went away for a week and I was home with them, and nope...it is very feasible to do both.  This used to bother me, but I have come to terms with the fact that (1) the children were different with me than with him (especially when they were babies/toddlers) and it was easier for me to get things done because they were easier (probably because I was the owner of the boobs so food/comforting was quick and straightforward), and (2) he is not as organized/efficient as I am in terns of housework and cooking, and that it does take him way longer to do any one thing, let alone multitask on several things. 

Yes, it was/is annoying, but I've just accepted it because he is a great father and husband, and because I recognize that staying home with two children is difficult.  This was especially true for him because he is a bit introverted, and he found it difficult to break into the mom/playdate scene, which can be a bit clique-y in general, but even more so if you're the only dad (which he was).  Similarly, I bit my tongue when he would get coffee at Starbucks because he enjoyed doing so (being around other adults, getting out of the house).  Even though it wasn't frugal and we can make coffee at home, we could afford it and his happiness was important to me.  I don't think wanting to continue to take a 60-minute walk with the kids (rather than stay home and clean) is unreasonable, and probably a sanity-saver in terms of taking a break from reading the same book for the 17th time.

I get that its frustrating to spend money on things that seem unimportant to you when you're the one earning it (that's our household too), but if you put a pricetag on his role in your family (which is higher than just the cost of daycare because your kids are one-on-one with someone that loves them as much as you do), the cost of a phone and tv and not having an immaculate stove might not seem that significant.  Good luck. 

[Morning Glory]

Hi. Can you sign up with Mint or Personal capital? Then you will know where the money is going. Maybe give us an update when you have a couple months of data.

Who has the gym membership and is it used frequently?

 I really think you need to ditch the paper plates. I also have a family of four (well, currently eight) and we normally only run our dishwasher every 3-4 days. If you just used a plate to cut fruit then rinse it off and use it again next time, or better yet just keep a bunch of fruit cut up in the refrigerator. Only use one cup per person per day also.

Besides the plates, what makes your trash so heavy? Are you wasting food? Buying single serve items? Both of my kids are still in disposable diapers and we only create one or two grocery bags of trash per day. Maybe this is why your food spending is so high.

Let your husband keep his walk, but ask him to take on a couple more chores. Maybe he could vacuum and wipe down the bathroom once per week, while the kids watch a cartoon? The five year old should also pick up his own toys and help with sweeping/ dusting/ etc. Then you could ditch the paid housecleaning without adding to your overall load.

What is the mess/ clutter that your husband is talking about when he says you are messy? Are you buying unnecessary crap or is he overly critical? Tracking spending might help to sort this out. Meanwhile getting rid of some stuff would be a concrete step towards making your apartment easier to clean.

[formerlydivorcedmom]

I use Mint, and I log in to check it at least 2 days a week.  I check all transactions and make sure that they are properly categorized, and then I check the monthly budgets and the spending trends for the last few months.  Once I had a good 3-6 months of expenses categorized properly, then we could start talking about whether what we were spending was reasonable.  I realized, for example, that we were spending hundreds of dollars a month at WalMart and Target and I had zero clues about what that money bought.  Groceries?  Clothes?  Stuff?....probably stuff that was so meaningless we couldn't even remember what it was.

That was a big clue to me that maybe our spending was a tad out of control.

I also have a spreadsheet that I update the last day of every month.  It lists the value of each of our accounts and the amount of our debt (currently just the mortgage).  I sum up our assets, and then calculate our net worth.  We have a set goal for retirement, so I also have a row that shows the % that we've accumulated towards that goal.  I separate out the kids' college funds to a different area, and also track the percentages of how close we are to meeting our targets there.  The second tab of my spreadsheet has a line graph to chart the changes in our assets, net worth, debt, and the college funds.

I LOVE my spreadsheet.  It is a visual representation of the progress that we are making and a good reminder to stop spending wastefully.

---

It sounds like your family is not being very efficient right now, which is costing you money.  This is absolutely not surprising considering your youngest is just transitioning to toddlerhood.

I highly recommend meal planning and food prep on the weekends.  My husband was a SAHD for a few years, and he thought this was stupid.  So I did it for our family anyway.  That means that Sunday evenings, I clean and chop a week's worth of fruits and veggies.  I package them individually or in larger quantities so we always have a healthy snack or an appropriate serving for lunches.  I prep dinners for the week and/or I restock the freezer with casseroles or prepped crock pot meals.  I also have a stash of "easy" meals - frozen meatballs, pizza rolls, frozen stir fry packages - for those days when we are totally busy.  It may take a few hours on Sunday, but the kids love to help (your 5-year-old could count how many apple slices go in this bag) or they will sit and talk to me while I'm working.  It saves A LOT of money, not buying pre-packaged foods, not buying so much junk food, and having food handy to prepare instead of confronting an empty kitchen when you are tired or stressed.   It also cuts down on the amount of dishes that need to be done - you're doing the bulk of all of your prep once per week, instead of multiple times a day.

Like you, I am messy.  My solution was to start decluttering our house.  I've given away or sold about 40% of our stuff over the last year.  We haven't missed 99% of it.  That means that a) there are a lot fewer things that need a home and b) there is actually space in cabinets and on shelves.  This makes it way easier to put things where they belong rather than leave them out.  (Except for paper - I still don't have a great solution for battling paper.)

These methods are things I could do without my husband's explicit buy-in.  *I* was getting rid of *my* stuff (and "our" stuff with his approval).  *I* was prepping the meals so he didn't have to do it.  Slowly, he has started imitating my choices.   We are still a work-in progress.

[Linea_Norway]

About dishes... When we eat breakfast, we keep the dishes out of the dishwasher and reuse them at lunch. We also reuse water glasses and tea cups many times a day. It shouldn't be necessary to run the dishwasher so often.

Sometimes, when family visits, they immediately start collecting the dishes after breakfast and force me to run the dishwasher in the middle of the day, because I don't have more than 6 pieces of cutlery of each kind. Very annoying to have so many dishes.

Maybe you could have dishes in multiple colours so that everyone can have their own colour?

[ATR]

PTF

[AMandM]

Babybug- you are right. I don't have specific goals except for $1 million in 401k  and I think that will happen in 10 years. I need to be more specific.  I know I need to sit down and do it - but I think what's keeping me from doing it is I'm afraid to put my foot down with my husband. He is mindful of the spending when i ask him - but sometimes i think he is unwilling to get rid of tv - phone, etc...part of me feels bad to ask him to do that, part of me has asked and he never really responds. I get a blank stare. It's like I'm asking him to give up eating. So that is an issue.

Yes, I think you and your husband both need to think about what your financial goals are.  Right now your only stated goal is a 401(k) worth $1,000,000 in 10 years. Can you articulate why that amount at that time--what will that make possible?  Does your husband know about this goal of yours? Does he share it? Does he also want to buy a house in the Midwest?  If the two of you can agree that (made-up example) in three years you want to have $50,000 for a down payment on a house in the Midwest, then there's a reason to curb spending now and that might make it a lot easier. In general, the whole question of your finances needs to become a joint project.

To be totally honest, I can understand your husband resisting your criticism of his spending. In the current situation, that $1M goal is pretty well guaranteed to be reached, and on top of that some of your bonus gets saved each year; why should he spend less since everything is going well, and especially why should you criticize him when you yourself are spending mindlessly too?

Eliha- I agree with you. I think he is bs - ing me. (Lol) and is over parenting. I have brought it up several times and he thinks I'm crazy. Lol. I realize this is an issue but he is very stubborn.  I will say that he cooks and has dinner ready and picks up (not cleans) every night and puts dishes in the dishwasher every night. So he thinks he does more than enough.   Sorry to rant - but I'm sure you can see where i am coming from.
Yes 2 year old naps for about an hour and 5 year old will start pre k soon. He normally walks with the kids for an hour every morning and plans to continue this when 5 year old is in school - and i don't understand why he doesn't use that time to do housework instead. Like i said - he is stubborn and feels he should continue this walk. I think the walk needs to be postponed til later in the day after it cools off.  I don't expect perfection at all - he expects the place to clean an organized - so its pressure on my to clean on the weekends - i am the messy one and contribute to things being everywhere - but that's me. I dont' know. Another story i guess.
The paper plates are my fault. We would have to do 2 loads of dishes every day without paper plates. It just prevents us from using a million dishes. The kids need fruit cut up at least 3 times a day - everything needs to be cut- my son is so picky and needs everything separate. Another long story.  I don't think I can give up the paper plates, but i can give up eating out.  I havnen't thought about the 5 year old getting involved with cleaning but my husband is impatient with him. 
Will talk to him about cleaning more. [...]
Linda Norway - his "reasoning" for me to do it is b/c its my mess. Any thoughts? [...]

I was thinking about this earlier this morning while babysitting my 2yo granddaughter. She helped me unload the dishwasher and reload it with the dirty breakfast dishes.  When we played a game, she helped me put the pieces back in the box before I let her take out a new game. She held a rag while I wiped the counter. Etc. So it is definitely possible to do housework while also minding children. The trick is to recognize that you're combing the work itself with teaching the child to do the work. Thus, the work is getting done slower than if you did it yourself, but way faster than if you didn't do it.

However...! Just because it is possible in general doesn't mean it is possible specifically for your husband. After all, it is also definitely possible in general for an adult to pick up her own stuff, but it's difficult for you specifically. I think this is another area where you and your husband need to talk and formulate shared goals. Some of these will be more important to one of you than the other, but you may find that it is easier for him to, say, take responsibility for the garbage if he can see why it's important to you and also if you can, say, acknowledge the benefits of daily fresh air for your kids. The goal is mutual support and appreciation, not each of you getting the other to do more of what I want.

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm dumping on you, mamabear, and letting your husband off the hook.   You're the one who posted, and you're the one who wants things to be different, so my advice is directed to how you can change them. Neither of us can make him change, but maybe you can take steps that will lead to him wanting to change.  Good luck!

[Dragonswan]

I read most of the thread and a couple of things jumped out at me that I don't think were addressed/suggested.  You said you get a bonus every year 15-30K.  That is the easiest way to get money into investments.  When you get it, put it ALL immediately into investments where you can't see it and won't spend it.  Then at least you have that each year if you do nothing else right now.  Keep the housekeeper, the babysitter and the TV.  Your marriage and sanity are more important than early retirement.

Then once both kids are in school your husband can go back to paid work and you can increase savings and set concrete goals like what it would take to buy a house (and where) and at what age do you want to retire and how much so you need to save and invest for that.

I'm not saying don't look for the waste in your budget, but don't go after the pennies until the big stuff is in order and right now that's the bonus and in a couple years getting a second income earner.  You can tread water for a couple of years and then get cranking on big saving for early retirement.

[Dianalou]

Just had to comment on the cleaning/cooking general duties of the household with working and without. I have a 3 year old and a 2 year old, my husband works full-time 45 min away from the house (trust me, we're looking for closer work with similar benefits!), and I have worked full time, 20 hours a week, and currently 32 hours a week while I cover for a co-worker on maternity leave. When I'm not with the kids we're paying for childcare. When we were both full-time with two little ones, the house was declining, meals were turning much more into drive-thru or frozen junk, so we decided to hire a cleaning person to come in every couple weeks, so I am very supportive of a cleaning person keeping your house in line and everyone sane. Before we could hire that person though, I went down to 20 hours a week at work. The deal was that as the person who was home all day a couple times a week, it was on me to do the house stuff because I had more time I actually COULD! Yes the stay-at-home parent is working all day, but they are physically in the house. You can empty the dishwasher while the kids are eating breakfast. You can vacuum or dry mop the house while kids are running around you like crazy people. It takes like two minutes to load the washing machine and they can help sort (I like to tell myself this helps them learn for the future and practice like colors :)). The things that I pretty much never do with the kids around is tidy-up (it will be destroyed within seconds, if it even gets finish) or fold laundry, those are strictly for after bed while watching HGTV.

And I would also think that having a stay at home parent would eliminate the need for paper plates. Your family is the same size as mine and we run dishwasher every other or every three days. Why do you need a new cutting board each time you cut fruit? Couldn't you cut up all the fruit at once and keep it in tupperware in the fridge, then just pull out the specific one to give for snacks? You can quick rinse a bowl and put in a drying rack and it's ready for the next meal or snack. We also use the same cups all day (kids cups with milk just gets put in the fridge), and the same cloth napkins all during the day. Plus less garbage means less garbage taking out fights :)

So I'm pro the TV, though I would try and find someone with Netflix you can mooch off of, but super against the excuses for being able to take care of the house. My kids entertain themselves perfectly well for 10-15 minutes while I tidy/clean up something.  I also think getting outside with the kids on the walk, or going to the park etc. is awesome. Kids AND ADULTS, especially those home with two kids all day, need to get fresh air. If I was your husband I would be begging to be the one who got to clean the house for a couple hours while you entertained the kids. Sometimes it's not just about doing an easier task, it's about doing a different task!

And I completely recommend having a direct deposit straight from your paycheck through HR at your work, or an automatic withdrawal from your bank account every month. I never think we'll be able to live on these adjustments, but you just adapt to what's in the account. Like how you're adapting to having more (you spend it), you adapt to having less (nothing left to blow on herb planters :)). I've done that with car payments and automatic savings for a house down payment. You just adapt.

Long story short: your husband is snowing you about the household duties and watching kids at the same time, and overall you're doing good stuff like your retirement savings, sounds like you just need to add a little more automation to the mix!