Author Topic: Freshly FIRE - Now how do I calculate Roth Conversions/ACA  (Read 6658 times)

NoEllipsis

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 32
  • Location: San Francisco
Freshly FIRE - Now how do I calculate Roth Conversions/ACA
« on: March 27, 2021, 12:08:47 AM »
Hi All, I've been on my FIRE journey for over a decade now, I can't say when I exactly started. But I made the plunge to quit my (hopefully) last job forever earlier this month! I wasn't expecting to do it exactly when I did so my cash cushion is a little lower than I would have liked, but I'm dealing with it. Worrying about my cash position is much less stressful than my job I just left!

The last few weeks I've been digging into ACA and taxes like crazy and I'm just trying to find what the optimal path forward for me is 5 years + from now. I'm 38, single, and I know that my home that I currently own (still have a mortgage) will not be my forever home because of <reasons>.

Here's the numbers:

Mortgage: 185k (490k equity)

Brokerage: 650k
Roth IRA: 1,400k
Traditonal IRA: 210k
401k: 235k
Cash: 23k

Annual Expenses: ~33k (Excludes Healthcare Expenses [more on that below since this is one of my questions] and taxes, but this year I've more than paid my taxes on that)


This year I made ~38k from my job before I left, and I could make it the rest of the year without really inflating my "income" anymore, in fact, I have a short term loss for the year of 2k so that will lower things a touch.

Since I know in the future I'll be moving to a different "forever" home I need to plan for that event. I'm going to estimate that it will take place in roughly 10-12 years from now, and when that happens I'll take the proceeds from my current home + ~500k to move someplace nicer to live out my "golden" years.

So I'm trying to figure out the proper Roth conversions that I should be doing, how it works with earnings, capital gains, and how that all fights with ACA subsidies. Right now I can keep my income low and get subsidies for a cheap bronze plan, or I could add to my Roth conversions so I can access the money earlier and I lose most of the ACA subsidies. The difference in subsidies appears to be ~2k if I boost my income and do a rollover this year.

Questions:
1) As far as my Roth conversions - Is this year significantly different for me since I have working income, versus in 2022 all of my income will be long term capital gains/dividends? Since my annual expenses will probably be close to 40k/year I don't have a lot of Roth conversion room in the 12% tax bracket. Do long term capital gains/qualified dividends not count towards income when looking at Roth conversions? I'm currently thinking this year that a conversion doesn't make much sense, maybe a small one, but not a significant one. But in 2022 I can convert roughly 40k and keep that all in the 12% bracket. I'm hoping that's right.

2) Since I prefer future flexibility (access to money outside of my retirement accounts) over a few thousand dollars I may save in ACA subsidies, should I just ignore trying to be under income levels for ACA benefits? This is assuming ACA is similar in 2022 and going forwards. I'm guessing that I can keep my income low for 2021 since all of my income came from a job, but in 2022 I'll be having a decent amount of LTCG and Roth conversions so I realistically can't keep my income low enough for ACA subsidies in future years.


I may be planning for something that I'll change my mind on in the future. Perhaps I won't want to spend so much on a different home, San Francisco is expensive and right now I want to stay in the bay area because of friends/family, but who knows what the future holds. I may decide to move somewhere different down the road but I want to make sure that when the time comes I have more options rather than being limited by how much cash I can access.

The one thing I know for sure is that my current home will not be my forever home, the main reason is that it's on the 3rd floor with no elevators and 3 flights of stairs at age 65 will get tough. I know I need to plan to eventually move.

Thanks!

seattlecyclone

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7266
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Seattle, WA
    • My blog
Re: Freshly FIRE - Now how do I calculate Roth Conversions/ACA
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2021, 01:11:02 AM »
Right now I can keep my income low and get subsidies for a cheap bronze plan, or I could add to my Roth conversions so I can access the money earlier and I lose most of the ACA subsidies.

Yes, this sums up the trade-off nicely.

Quote
Questions:
1) As far as my Roth conversions - Is this year significantly different for me since I have working income, versus in 2022 all of my income will be long term capital gains/dividends?

Yes, this year is a bit different. All that money you earned from your job is taxed at regular rates (same as Roth conversions), as opposed to the more favorable dividend/capital gains rates. Furthermore you'll probably find your income is higher this year. Every dollar you earned working counts as income, but when you sell a dollar of shares in your brokerage account you'll realize less than a dollar of income. Only the gain counts as income, not the cost basis.

Quote
Since my annual expenses will probably be close to 40k/year I don't have a lot of Roth conversion room in the 12% tax bracket.

Don't forget about the standard deduction! The tax brackets are based on your taxable income, which is your AGI minus your standard or itemized deductions. For a single person the standard deduction is $12,550 this year, and the 15% bracket goes up to $40,525 taxable income, which means you can gross $53,075 before you move up to the 22% bracket.

Quote
Do long term capital gains/qualified dividends not count towards income when looking at Roth conversions?

The capital gains/dividends stack on top of the regular income. Suppose your gross income this year is $40k from regular income (work and Roth conversions) and $20k from dividends/capital gains. You look at the regular income first. Subtract the $12,550 standard deduction and you have $27,450 of regular taxable income. The first $9,950 of this will be taxed at 10% and the rest will be taxed at 12%.

Now we look at the capital gains. Your total taxable income is $47,450 ($27,450 of regular income plus the $20k of capital gains). The 0% capital gains bracket ends at $40,400 of taxable income. You'll pay 0% capital gains tax on the first ($40,400 - $27,450 = $12,950) of capital gains income, and 15% on the remaining $7,050.

When you're straddling the border of capital gains rates like this, doing an extra $1 of Roth conversions will not only cost you 12¢ of tax from the Roth conversion directly, but because the capital gains stacks on top of the regular income you'll push a dollar of your capital gains income into the 15% bracket. That means the net cost of that Roth conversion will be 27%. Something to keep in mind for sure.

Quote
I'm currently thinking this year that a conversion doesn't make much sense, maybe a small one, but not a significant one. But in 2022 I can convert roughly 40k and keep that all in the 12% bracket. I'm hoping that's right.

Sure, you could convert this much in the 12% bracket when you take the standard deduction into account. Depending on your withdrawal strategy from your taxable brokerage account you may find that this pushes some of your dividends/capital gains into the 15% bracket, which may not be what you want.

I am kind of curious whether you really need to do Roth conversions at all. Your pre-tax retirement accounts make up less than a quarter of your wealth. You have enough in your taxable brokerage account for at least 15 years of your expected spending, plus your $1.4 million of existing Roth balances surely has enough principal to make it to 59½ and beyond. You might want to do some small amount of Roth conversion every year just to make 100% sure your RMDs won't be ridiculously large at some future date, but beyond that I don't really see the need. Drawing down your taxable account at a relatively low income level while you're on ACA coverage and then starting some Roth conversions once you're old enough for Medicare may be the winning strategy under current law.

Quote
2) Since I prefer future flexibility (access to money outside of my retirement accounts) over a few thousand dollars I may save in ACA subsidies, should I just ignore trying to be under income levels for ACA benefits? This is assuming ACA is similar in 2022 and going forwards. I'm guessing that I can keep my income low for 2021 since all of my income came from a job, but in 2022 I'll be having a decent amount of LTCG and Roth conversions so I realistically can't keep my income low enough for ACA subsidies in future years.

What's unrealistic about ACA subsidies? You expect to spend about $40k, which when you're spending from a taxable brokerage account means you should be able to keep your income below $40k. Remember that the withdrawal of your basis doesn't count as income for this purpose. Even if your income is $40k you'll be below the threshold of 400% of the poverty level where you would have disqualified yourself from ACA subsidies under last year's law. This year the 400% cliff is gone, so you could potentially receive some subsidy even at an income above 400% of the poverty line. Again, given your asset mix and spending plans I don't think you should have any problem keeping your income at a level where you would qualify for some subsidy.

NoEllipsis

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 32
  • Location: San Francisco
Re: Freshly FIRE - Now how do I calculate Roth Conversions/ACA
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2021, 01:58:51 AM »
I am kind of curious whether you really need to do Roth conversions at all. Your pre-tax retirement accounts make up less than a quarter of your wealth. You have enough in your taxable brokerage account for at least 15 years of your expected spending, plus your $1.4 million of existing Roth balances surely has enough principal to make it to 59½ and beyond. You might want to do some small amount of Roth conversion every year just to make 100% sure your RMDs won't be ridiculously large at some future date, but beyond that I don't really see the need. Drawing down your taxable account at a relatively low income level while you're on ACA coverage and then starting some Roth conversions once you're old enough for Medicare may be the winning strategy under current law.

Thanks so much for this explanation of my situation! This is really helpful.

The reason I'm looking at Roth conversions is so that I can pull out the contributions later to possibly purchase a new home in 10-12 years, which would put me at about 50 years old, well before I can get into those accounts without an early withdrawal penalty. While my Roth balance is substantial, that mostly has to do more with a very lucky investment rather than consistent contributions. I haven't contributed to my Roth in a very long time, I think all of the contributions I made to that account are probably around 50k so I can't tap that for too much until I convert an IRA or 401k.

reeshau

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2601
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Former locations: Detroit, Indianapolis, Dublin
Re: Freshly FIRE - Now how do I calculate Roth Conversions/ACA
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2021, 10:41:41 AM »
Not much to say that @seattlecyclone didn't cover.


Since I know in the future I'll be moving to a different "forever" home I need to plan for that event. I'm going to estimate that it will take place in roughly 10-12 years from now, and when that happens I'll take the proceeds from my current home + ~500k to move someplace nicer to live out my "golden" years.

So you think your forever home is going to be north of $1M?  You also said SF is expensive, so I was thinking  you were looking for LCOL too, until I went back to this.  I know you're in the Bay bubble, but in most of the country, you would be taking $500k out of your home equity to get a forever home, not putting more in.  (given another 10 year's SF appreciation)  And some of those places are warm with waterfront, too.  You don't want stairs, but you also don't want 4,000 sq ft to clean when you're 65.

It reminds me of a news article from a few years back.  A couple who owned a 1,600 sq ft Victorian home in SF decided they wanted something different.  So they cashed out and moved to Detroit.  Where they bought the Motown Mansion, complete with artifacts from the record label.  For even money.  It needed some work, but was in pretty good ahape.

NoEllipsis

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 32
  • Location: San Francisco
Re: Freshly FIRE - Now how do I calculate Roth Conversions/ACA
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2021, 03:24:40 PM »
My current house is on the low end for San Francisco at ~700k. More than $1M for a house in SF might still only be 1,200sqft in a nicer neighborhood with a more upkept building.

I'll likely stay within the Bay Area since all of my friends and family are here. Home is where the heart is... I may eventually decide to move to another lower cost city, most likely just a slightly less expensive part of the Bay Area (Berkeley, Oakland, etc.), but I still want the option to stay in the city I've been in for the past 14 years and counting. I don't want to HAVE to pick a different city just because I didn't plan for it. Also more than $1M for houses in Oakland aren't mansions by any means. I definitely don't want some ridiculously gross oversized house that I don't fully use.

You're right about the Bay Area bubble though, I wish I wasn't in it but I am. I've lived other places, San Diego (5 yrs), LA (2 yrs). I've never tried the east coast, yet I did do a 4 month stint in India :) None of those other places so far have quite fit what I wanted so far, I really think it's the family piece that's missing. A phone call isn't quite the same as visiting my parents every couple of weeks and hanging out for a few hours.

reeshau

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2601
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Former locations: Detroit, Indianapolis, Dublin
Re: Freshly FIRE - Now how do I calculate Roth Conversions/ACA
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2021, 04:45:02 PM »
No worries, as long as you have your eyes open about it.  No wonder, though, why the tax brackets aren't cooperating with your plans if you are shooting that big.  You may just have to bite the bullet and know you are minimizing taxes as best you can to meet your goals, even if it isn't by-the-book optimal.

ericrugiero

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 740
Re: Freshly FIRE - Now how do I calculate Roth Conversions/ACA
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2021, 08:39:05 AM »
First of all, it looks like you have plenty of money to do what you want.  But, your current plan might force you to do something that's not optimal in taxes and penalties. 

You said you don't have much contributions in the Roth account which means most of that $1.4M isn't available now.  You will have penalties if you withdraw the Roth gains before 59.5.  That makes me concerned about you having enough money to spend another $500K on housing AND still make it to 59.5 without taking out Roth growth and paying penalties. 

Here is one possible plan:
-  Live off the brokerage account for now.  $650K should last a pretty long time. 
-  Gradually convert the $450K in you traditional 401K and IRA to Roth IRA.  Those conversions can all be withdrawn after a 5 year seasoning period.  You want to convert them at least 5 years before you need the money and also do it slowly enough to keep the taxes low. 
-  The $50K Roth contributions and $450K conversions should easily get you the rest of the way to 59.5. 
-  Once you turn 59.5, you have the rest of the Roth account available tax free.  Buy your "old person house" at that point. 

This is the most tax efficient plan I can see.  But, you have enough money you could afford to pay some extra taxes if you decide you want to do it differently.   At the end of the day, you might decide paying the tax penalty is worth it.  That really depends how soon you want to move. 

ysette9

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8930
  • Age: 2020
  • Location: Bay Area at heart living in the PNW
Re: Freshly FIRE - Now how do I calculate Roth Conversions/ACA
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2021, 02:42:38 PM »
I’m just curious what you bought in your Roth IRA years ago that had performed so well. And please tell me you have diversified out of it and into something boring and broadly diversified. :)

NoEllipsis

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 32
  • Location: San Francisco
Re: Freshly FIRE - Now how do I calculate Roth Conversions/ACA
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2021, 04:42:54 PM »
I’m just curious what you bought in your Roth IRA years ago that had performed so well. And please tell me you have diversified out of it and into something boring and broadly diversified. :)

I bought a bunch of TSLA back in 2012. I've taken hundreds of thousands out of that position within the past 1.5 years but still have a large position in it. Luckily since it is in a Roth I don't have to worry about the tax side of things on that. I've reinvested a lot of that into some boring things such as a total stock market index fund, but I still have a lot of individual holdings as well some boring and some not. Varies from things like Waste Management to Roku.

Even if I exclude TSLA from my holdings I'm still in a position where FIRE is possible, just probably dreaming smaller about my future than I am now. I'm not planning on making major changes for many years still, I've been on the FIRE journey for 15+ years, so another few years of just riding out a simple low stress life before upscaling my spending habits will be easy.

seattlecyclone

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7266
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Seattle, WA
    • My blog
Re: Freshly FIRE - Now how do I calculate Roth Conversions/ACA
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2021, 01:15:39 AM »
-  Once you turn 59.5, you have the rest of the Roth account available tax free.  Buy your "old person house" at that point.

Yes, I agree. That's when you'll be able to take money from your Roth IRA for free, and your Roth IRA is also where most of your money is. Taking early withdrawals from the earnings portion of a Roth IRA is super expensive. If you can avoid upgrading your housing until that's no longer the case, you're in great shape.

jeroly

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 645
Re: Freshly FIRE - Now how do I calculate Roth Conversions/ACA
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2021, 06:42:55 AM »
Two thoughts:

- I don’t think that the stairs will be a problem at 65 unless you have physical disabilities. At 80, well that’s a very different situation,

- You can avoid the tax penalties connected to early withdrawals by using all your equity as a down payment, take out a sizeable mortgage on the new property, and then pay it down when you can get penalty-free access to the Roth money.

NoEllipsis

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 32
  • Location: San Francisco
Re: Freshly FIRE - Now how do I calculate Roth Conversions/ACA
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2021, 02:43:30 PM »
Two thoughts:

- I don’t think that the stairs will be a problem at 65 unless you have physical disabilities. At 80, well that’s a very different situation,

- You can avoid the tax penalties connected to early withdrawals by using all your equity as a down payment, take out a sizeable mortgage on the new property, and then pay it down when you can get penalty-free access to the Roth money.

I know the longer I wait on moving to a forever home (for my 80's hopefully) the better shape I'll be in. At the same time if I can comfortably do it earlier to enjoy it longer, that's what I've been working for and saving a large nest egg for.

The only potential issue I might see with taking out a mortgage 10 years from now is that while I may have the savings for it in my Roth, I have no idea if a bank would let give me a mortgage without having a W2 job for a decade and still needing to wait another 10 years to access that Roth. Every time I've dealt with lenders they have been worse customer service than cable companies. I'm not going to bet on banks being accommodative to that plan, since everything in my being tells me to just rely on myself.

I think I understand the tax piece a bit more now that I wasn't clear on before so I know how I'm going to proceed. It won't be the most efficient but I think it will give me more options which will be worth the price even if I don't need those options later.

reeshau

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2601
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Former locations: Detroit, Indianapolis, Dublin
Re: Freshly FIRE - Now how do I calculate Roth Conversions/ACA
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2021, 05:45:24 PM »
The only potential issue I might see with taking out a mortgage 10 years from now is that while I may have the savings for it in my Roth, I have no idea if a bank would let give me a mortgage without having a W2 job for a decade and still needing to wait another 10 years to access that Roth. Every time I've dealt with lenders they have been worse customer service than cable companies. I'm not going to bet on banks being accommodative to that plan, since everything in my being tells me to just rely on myself.

You are talking about an asset depletion mortgage.  Yes they exist, but the market is not as large so you won't get a rate as good as a typical W-2 mortgage.  You will need to separately prove your down payment plus living expenses for 10 years or so.  I would expect the Roth won't count as you won't be 59, unless you take the time to educate some bankers on a mega backdoor.  Assuming they have the patience to listen, and the flexibility to consider it.

https://themortgagereports.com/68921/asset-depletion-mortgage-how-it-works

I happened to FIRE last year, and came back from overseas already with no job.  Given the pandemic, I got a lot of "normally we could, but not now."  So we just bought the house.  If I went back for a mortgage now, it would be considered a cash out refi, which again would be an interest rate hit.  So, piss on 'em