Author Topic: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers  (Read 10034 times)

sleepless_in_seattle

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FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« on: August 06, 2019, 10:50:12 PM »
Hi all,

I've been mostly reading the blog and forums, finally gathered courage to post myself.

I've been for ~12 years in the US, had prior career abroad but very little savings due to 65% marginal tax rate bracket there... (fun times). Currenty work for a well known tech company, wife works as an RN couple of days a week; mostly helping with kids commute. We have 3 kids: 16yo, 14yo, and 4yo.

Current net worth: ~3.4M
House 850k-900k, fully paid off
Taxable saving accounts - ~1.7M
Retirement accounts (both of us) - 600k
Vested stock from the current employer - 180k

This doesn't include college funds for the kids that I have fully financed (130k for each of the older ones, 80k for the little one).

Expenses - ~9200k a month, with the following breakdown
Property tax - ~650/month (8k/year)
Utilities(water, electricity, mobile phone, waste management, homeowners association) - 600
House cleaner - 290

Two cars (both bought new in cash before I stumbled on this blog :) )
Insurance - 125
Gas - 250 (my car is pretty spendy at 20miles/gallon but we use it for long trips that we like so that we all fit, commute is 10 miles each way, with drop off at childcare on the way so no shuttle/vanpool etc. would work)
Maintenance/licensing - 60

Groceries and house supplies - 2000 (this is based on historical data; aiming to drop to 1500 for now)
Restauraunts - 300 (aiming at 100 for now)
Clothing - 150

Childcare for the little one - 1500
Various classes - 1300. This is something that I don't want to cut to give kids and myself enrichment.

Pocket money - 400. This is a long standing agreement between me and the wife that each of us gets 200 to spend as they want. This has saved a lot of quarreling over money so totally worth it.
Streaming services/concerts/movies - 200

Unforseen - 1000 (just saving up for that busted boiler when it happens).

So, not counting the unforseen I am spending ~8k month. My take home salary is ~10k, and my wife makes ~500 for her sporadic shifts. This is after we've maxed out on pretax 401k and HSA, and currently deposit 1000/paycheck from my salary into Roth 401k. I also get ~12k after tax in company stock per month that I haven't been touching.

Questions that I'd like help with:
1. If I'm computing the spending correctly, we are at ~120k/year, meaning I need 3M to be FI. Do I count the house value into that? Or is that just liquid assets?
1.5 According to some calculators I've seen online, liquid assets FI is 4 years away. Is that accurate in your opinion?
2. Any ideas on savings based on the budget above? I can cut the cleaner and reduce grocery bill to 1500. I don't see how to make it smaller given 4 grown ups in the house and the desire to buy (reasonably expensive) fruits and veggies, not just bananas at 0.7/lb.
3. Is Roth 401k a good idea? Should I max it out to reach 50k/year in retirement saving?
4. Any other comments/thoughts/suggestions more than welcome.


sleepless_in_seattle

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2019, 11:01:46 PM »
To clarify - the situation like mine is not something described on any of the blogs I've seen. They typically talk about 60k/year expenses and 120k/year income. I wanted to check if my math checks out.

secondcor521

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2019, 12:23:10 AM »
Answers:

1.  No, you would exclude the house value, unless you have plans to downsize or move to a cheaper COL place relatively soon after retirement.  So for FIRE purposes, you appear to be at ~$2.5M currently.

1.5.  Depends on how you're invested and if you're willing to reduce lifestyle to FIRE.  Roughly, though, if you're at $2.5M and invested in stocks, maybe you make 10%, or $250K per year.  Plus the $12K in stock vesting, plus whatever you are adding will help.  If FI is $3M, then depending on how the market does, you're probably less than 2 years away, not 4.

2.  No suggestions here.  You're high income and spend quite a bit; nothing wrong with that as long as everyone is happy.  If you or your wife's work is making anyone unhappy, then as a family you should sit down and decide what is least important and can be sacrificed.  If you just decree less eating out and lower grocery costs, you will probably end up with a rebellion.

3.  Most people think Roth 401(k)s are a good idea, as long as you like your investment choices and the investment costs are reasonable.  If you feel like you still have leftover cash flow and want to accelerate FIRE, a Roth 401(k) would be a good place to put it.

4.  Involve your wife in the planning and decision making and get to FIRE with her.  Divorces are horrible and, in your case, would set back FIRE by a number of years.  Talk with her, share your goals/dreams/fears, and listen as she shares hers.  Find win-win solutions and compromises as needed.

FYI, if you stop working, you might find that your taxes drop a lot, and your stress related spending drops a lot.  You may also have more time and energy to work on money-saving projects - for example, I'm improving the insulation on my house and doing more extensive tax planning which will save me on utilities and taxes, respectively.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 12:25:36 AM by secondcor521 »

SwordGuy

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2019, 01:18:25 AM »
First of all, congrats on being in such fine shape financially!

Second, you won't need daily child care if you both FIRE.   Your food/eating out/clothing/household goods costs are crazy high.  You are spending $2450 a month on these items.   $1000 should be plenty.  Plenty of info out there to learn how and to still eat tasty food that's good for you.  That's $2950 a month you should be easily able to cut from your FIRE budget.  That's $885,000 you don't have to have in your portfolio to support that spending!

You spend $1300 a month on personal enrichment classes?  Seriously?    What for?    I ask that in all honesty.   My wife and I go to workshops way more frequently than normal.   We have fully equipped wood shop, pottery studio, jewelry studio, glass studio and sewing room, plus a copious supporting library and we don't approach your spending level even if we include purchasing the tools and books!  You do realize that entire families live on less than you are spending on classes?   It's ok if you want to do it, I just want to recalibrate you to make sure you understand it's not even vaguely normal and may well give your kids a very warped idea of how life will be like once they are out of your home.  Half the above would still be an amazing amount and would teach your kids to prioritize limited resources if they have to cut back a bit on classes.

Get the above items under control and you could probably quit today.  We're talking at least $42,000 in annual spending that could easily be cut.










soccerluvof4

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2019, 03:25:56 AM »
Yea I have to agree with @SwordGuy for the most part. I have a 20 year old at home but in college a 19 yo away in college a 15 yo and 13 yo old at home and my Groceries are 7-800$ a month. There are alot of areas you can save and not give up your lifestyle. Our numbers are pretty similar been fire'd over 4 years and I dont feel like I am missing out on anything. Yes at times there are things I would like to buy and I do. I just bought a new boat a year ago. Clean up some of your expenses and your fine imo.

reeshau

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2019, 04:11:08 AM »
Get the above items under control and you could probably quit today.  We're talking at least $42,000 in annual spending that could easily be cut.

I agree with @SwordGuy 's assessment.  This is when things get interesting, and you see if you really "need" all the wants--when you realize that's the only reason you are still working.

Steeze

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2019, 05:01:32 AM »
The 4% rule is based on a 75%/25% stock/bond allocation. Having so much cash will require you to save quite a bit more because it is yielding ~2% and not invested and growing at ~7%. That cash is at best keeping up with inflation.

Freedomin5

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2019, 07:14:48 AM »
Your situation probably isn’t as unique as you think it is. There are just a lot of high earners who don’t post case studies. Our net income is higher than yours. Our expenses are WAY lower than yours. Therefore, no need for a case study as it would make a pretty boring one.

In any case, the issue isn’t in your computations or in your savings — you have done very well with savings. The issue is mainly in your spending. I’m sorry, but $2000 on food and supplies is ridiculous. Our family of five adults and one child spends approx. $800 on food. Have you broken down your grocery bills by line item and analyzed which things are truly necessary and which are just “wants”? And for the necessary things, is there a way to get it for cheaper? Maybe shop at a cheaper grocery store? Buy the store brand instead of the name brand?

Your clothing bill is also quite high. Shop at thrift stores, and have your 16 year old start purchasing their own clothes. If they need money, they can get a part-time job.

I also agree with the previous poster that $1300 for enrichment activities is very high. What activity costs $1300 per month? Try to find lower cost options. It can be the same activity, just done more frugally.

fuzzy math

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2019, 07:40:44 AM »
I think you're much closer than you think. If your expenses are $8k a month, $96k a year, then $2.4MM is your 25x expenses.

You do need to clarify whether your Taxable account is actually in savings, or whether that was a typo.

I don't understand this statement either
Quote
This is after we've maxed out on pretax 401k and HSA, and currently deposit 1000/paycheck from my salary into Roth 401k.

Are you following IRS rules for 401k? Its the same limit for both pretax and roth 401k. $19k total for each person between all accounts. If you're asking whether you should be doing a roth or not, I think you'd see more benefit from a traditional 401k because it would reduce your taxes and you are at the highest earning point of your life.

Also, the one glaring thing I see here that no one has already addressed is that your wife is bringing in $500 a month, and yet you're paying $1500 a month in child care for the 4 yr old. Is this is a full time preschool program that you're specifically sending the kiddo to for the purposes of preschool or childcare that's costing you $1000 a month more than your wife makes? Your financial situation should improve vastly once this last kiddo goes off to public school. I'm assuming that he/she will start Kindergarten next August? That's another $18k removed from your annual spending.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 07:45:18 AM by fuzzy math »

ZMonet

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2019, 08:53:26 AM »
Congrats on being in such great financial shape! 

Others have tackled some of the bigger issues.  On the "fully funded" college funds, is it your goal to pay for all of your kid's college?  It would seem $130k won't be sufficient to do that if they want to go to a private school.  With your income and assets, the kids are unlikely to get any financial aid.  I think with your assets outside of retirement accounts, even if you had zero income your kids would be unlikely to get any financial aid.  With your savings, you could easily pay for college out of cash flow, but the added expense is something to consider if your plan is to cover 100% of education.

sleepless_in_seattle

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2019, 08:57:12 AM »
Thanks everyone for thoughtful replies!

I'll address follow up questions below.



You spend $1300 a month on personal enrichment classes?  Seriously?    What for?    I ask that in all honesty.   ...  You do realize that entire families live on less than you are spending on classes?   It's ok if you want to do it, I just want to recalibrate you to make sure you understand it's not even vaguely normal and may well give your kids a very warped idea of how life will be like once they are out of your home.  Half the above would still be an amazing amount and would teach your kids to prioritize limited resources if they have to cut back a bit on classes.

Get the above items under control and you could probably quit today.  We're talking at least $42,000 in annual spending that could easily be cut.


I do realize the classes budget we have is higher than many people's total monthly budget. My kids know this (at least the older ones do, the young one can't count this high yet :) )

The breakdown is as follows:
  • The biggest chunk is a private guitar teacher. He charges 60/hr and three of us take lessons so it's 180/week or ~800/month. I wouldn't have done it if I didn't have the money for it but it does provide a lot of progress compared to self-study and a much better way to spend the time than watching Netflix.
  • Various math/physics/chem enrichment classes for the older kids. This has been a great way to get their brains developed and learn to solve non-standard problems. Somehow I find public school's science/math curriculum lacking (and our school is highly rated). This is about 250/month for the two of them all told
  • Swim instruction for the little one. 45/lesson once a week comes out to ~200/month. I see knowing how to swim as a safety thing plus swimming is a great sport when he's older.
  • The wife takes some classes, we pay for ski passes on our local resort and some other smaller stuff rounds up the list

Again, I realize most of it is completely optional and can be cut. I do want to have a portion of my day that is fun hence the guitar; and I do want the kids to develop hence the math/science/swim classes.

Your situation probably isn’t as unique as you think it is. There are just a lot of high earners who don’t post case studies. Our net income is higher than yours. Our expenses are WAY lower than yours. Therefore, no need for a case study as it would make a pretty boring one.

Well, as is pointed out elsewhere my friends don't tend to discuss finances openly. So if I'm boring it's good - I just need to find a model to follow; hopefully this post will give me pointers.

In any case, the issue isn’t in your computations or in your savings — you have done very well with savings. The issue is mainly in your spending. I’m sorry, but $2000 on food and supplies is ridiculous. Our family of five adults and one child spends approx. $800 on food. Have you broken down your grocery bills by line item and analyzed which things are truly necessary and which are just “wants”? And for the necessary things, is there a way to get it for cheaper? Maybe shop at a cheaper grocery store? Buy the store brand instead of the name brand?

I agree this is a first place to save. Most of the shopping is done at Costco with occasional trips to QFC for forgotten milk. Is it better to reduce the budget gradually or go whole hog and set a 800 goal straight away?


Your clothing bill is also quite high. Shop at thrift stores, and have your 16 year old start purchasing their own clothes. If they need money, they can get a part-time job.

Well, the small one is growing fast and so some of it is replenishing his wardrobe. The other part is replacing worn out items (shoes mostly). While I realize thrift stores will be cheaper I would prefer not to go there - what's the point of being a high earner if I can't buy new clothing occasionally?

You do need to clarify whether your Taxable account is actually in savings, or whether that was a typo.

My bad on phrasing choice. It's a taxable brokerage account invested in a mix of stocks.

Are you following IRS rules for 401k? Its the same limit for both pretax and roth 401k. $19k total for each person between all accounts. If you're asking whether you should be doing a roth or not, I think you'd see more benefit from a traditional 401k because it would reduce your taxes and you are at the highest earning point of your life.

I've used my annual bonus to fully fund the $19k pretax contribution to a traditional 401k, plus get employer match. The wife sends 50% of her paycheck to 401k so she's going to deposit ~13k in hers. I suggested setting her contribution ratio to 100% but she wants to see some money in the bank (easier psychologically).

The contributions to Roth are done via backdoor conversion - I deposit post tax money and it gets reclassified as Roth.

Also, the one glaring thing I see here that no one has already addressed is that your wife is bringing in $500 a month, and yet you're paying $1500 a month in child care for the 4 yr old. Is this is a full time preschool program that you're specifically sending the kiddo to for the purposes of preschool or childcare that's costing you $1000 a month more than your wife makes? Your financial situation should improve vastly once this last kiddo goes off to public school. I'm assuming that he/she will start Kindergarten next August? That's another $18k removed from your annual spending.

First, as I mentioned the pretax paycheck of my wife is higher, but half is going to 401k. I listed only the "take home" portion.

Even with the young one at preschool and the wife working a couple of days a week, there's not that much free time between driving the kids to classes, household chores etc. Also, he's getting great preparation for school there education-wise and social skills-wise. Not sure I could've given him that at home.

When he starts kindergarten (next year presumably), the bill will drop but we will need after-school care I guess. So say 500/month instead of 1500? I'm sure with my experience with older kids there will be classes etc that will just replace the makeup of this budget, but not wipe it out completely :)


Others have tackled some of the bigger issues.  On the "fully funded" college funds, is it your goal to pay for all of your kid's college?  It would seem $130k won't be sufficient to do that if they want to go to a private school.  With your income and assets, the kids are unlikely to get any financial aid.  I think with your assets outside of retirement accounts, even if you had zero income your kids would be unlikely to get any financial aid.  With your savings, you could easily pay for college out of cash flow, but the added expense is something to consider if your plan is to cover 100% of education.

I was aiming for financing a public school. I also would prefer to not have them accumulate student debt as I can affort that. My take is that I'm responsible to educate them through to bachelor's degree and they are on their own from that point. If they get admitted into a place that requires 60k/year I will probably think twice before sending them to it - not sure it's worth it in comparison to UW in Seattle which charges $12k/year.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 08:59:33 AM by sleepless_in_seattle »

sleepless_in_seattle

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2019, 09:01:19 AM »
Another common discussion we have at home is the point of "RE". I'm more than happy to give up the corporate job and stay at home with volunteering/teching/open source contributions. The wife disagrees and sees her profession as part of her identity. I wasn't able to convince her otherwise.

Car Jack

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2019, 11:32:45 AM »
I didn't see your income numbers, but assume it's really high, so some of my answer is based on that.

You spend a shit load of money on luxuries and extravagances, but because you earn a shit load of money, it's not hurting you.  So that's a full neutral.

You've saved a shit load of money.  Paid off house, 529s, retirement savings.

I think if you stop working, you're going to keep spending like crazy.  So you will eat through your savings, which is what it's there for.  I don't think there's any worry there and I think you're able to monitor balances and project where you'll be when you kick the bucket.

On the other side, throwing myself in there a bit....what if your kids are accepted to better private colleges for a field they are extremely motivated to go into that most likely will give them a great job?  Will you say no because it's $70k a year? (which is less than what they'll make as a first year salary)   This is your choice.

MoneyizHere

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2019, 12:15:03 PM »
To better optimize:  I'd suggest taking a look at your 401k plan to see if you're eligible to make after-tax contributions/in-plan withdraws for the mega-back door roth option.  It'll essentially boost your ROTH's up to $37k (assuming you do not get a matching - and you're probably getting matching of some sort.) (Federal limit is $56k for all source contributions)

Definitely have your Wife up to 100% on her contribution - Show her the tax savings of doing so on the remaining $6000 that she's short of contributing.  (also look to see if her 401k has mega-back-door-roth eligibility esp since she anticipating to continue working).  To off-set the expectation of $ in the bank account - transfer the equivalent of your paycheck into her bank account.   

You definitely could stop with work if you drop your expenses to half of what you have. 




sleepless_in_seattle

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2019, 12:54:38 PM »
I didn't see your income numbers, but assume it's really high, so some of my answer is based on that.

My bad.

Income
Myself - 440k/year (including stock based comp)
Wife - 35k/year

Total 475k

Savings
Stocks - 180k
401k pretax - 19k
401k employer match - 10k
wife's 401k - 13k
HSA - 7k
HSA employer match - 2k
Roth backdoor conversion - 20k

Total: 239k + 12k by employer - 251.

This alone gives 52% savings rate but I know I can do better. Assuming cutting services and grocery bugdet, adds 30k/year for a total of 60% savings.


You spend a shit load of money on luxuries and extravagances, but because you earn a shit load of money, it's not hurting you.  So that's a full neutral.

Luxuries? I don't have a yacht, waterfront property, Tesla, private buttler. Is my spending on classes a luxury?

Maybe I don't have a good basis of comparison, but looking at my friends and coworkers I don't lead the flashiest lifestyle. My house is more modest, cars are older, we travel less and dont shop at Whole Foods. So if there's someone in my income bracket that can share how they lead mustachian approved lifestyle, that would serve like a great basis for comparison.


I think if you stop working, you're going to keep spending like crazy.  So you will eat through your savings, which is what it's there for.  I don't think there's any worry there and I think you're able to monitor balances and project where you'll be when you kick the bucket.

Well, the goal is to dial it down so I don't spend like crazy.

FWIW, the high paying job is nice and has its perks, but I'd leave in a heartbeat if I could.  The wife seems to take a different view :)

On the other side, throwing myself in there a bit....what if your kids are accepted to better private colleges for a field they are extremely motivated to go into that most likely will give them a great job?  Will you say no because it's $70k a year? (which is less than what they'll make as a first year salary)   This is your choice.

I haven't gone to college in the US so I don't know this for sure: is there a correlation between tuition and earnings potential? I think that there might be to a point and going to a good public college is sufficient. 70k/year is 5800/month which is unsustainable even with my insane income. Especially when both kids are at college at the same time, 13k/month is a tad high. :)

So, I would try to guide them to a good school which is not so crazily expensive. Or hope for a merit based scholarship if such beasts exist.

sleepless_in_seattle

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2019, 12:56:48 PM »
To better optimize:  I'd suggest taking a look at your 401k plan to see if you're eligible to make after-tax contributions/in-plan withdraws for the mega-back door roth option.  It'll essentially boost your ROTH's up to $37k (assuming you do not get a matching - and you're probably getting matching of some sort.) (Federal limit is $56k for all source contributions)

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I'm already doing that at 1k/paycheck, so after maxing out pretax 401k it left about 20k/year going into Roth.

Definitely have your Wife up to 100% on her contribution - Show her the tax savings of doing so on the remaining $6000 that she's short of contributing.  (also look to see if her 401k has mega-back-door-roth eligibility esp since she anticipating to continue working).  To off-set the expectation of $ in the bank account - transfer the equivalent of your paycheck into her bank account.   

Her workplace doesn't seem to have mega-backdoor roth. I'll try to convince her to max out the pretax portion for now. Baby steps...


fuzzy math

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2019, 01:26:17 PM »
Thanks everyone for thoughtful replies!

I'll address follow up questions below.



You spend $1300 a month on personal enrichment classes?  Seriously?    What for?    I ask that in all honesty.   ...  You do realize that entire families live on less than you are spending on classes?   It's ok if you want to do it, I just want to recalibrate you to make sure you understand it's not even vaguely normal and may well give your kids a very warped idea of how life will be like once they are out of your home.  Half the above would still be an amazing amount and would teach your kids to prioritize limited resources if they have to cut back a bit on classes.

Get the above items under control and you could probably quit today.  We're talking at least $42,000 in annual spending that could easily be cut.


I do realize the classes budget we have is higher than many people's total monthly budget. My kids know this (at least the older ones do, the young one can't count this high yet :) )

The breakdown is as follows:
  • The biggest chunk is a private guitar teacher. He charges 60/hr and three of us take lessons so it's 180/week or ~800/month. I wouldn't have done it if I didn't have the money for it but it does provide a lot of progress compared to self-study and a much better way to spend the time than watching Netflix.
  • Various math/physics/chem enrichment classes for the older kids. This has been a great way to get their brains developed and learn to solve non-standard problems. Somehow I find public school's science/math curriculum lacking (and our school is highly rated). This is about 250/month for the two of them all told
  • Swim instruction for the little one. 45/lesson once a week comes out to ~200/month. I see knowing how to swim as a safety thing plus swimming is a great sport when he's older.
  • The wife takes some classes, we pay for ski passes on our local resort and some other smaller stuff rounds up the list

Again, I realize most of it is completely optional and can be cut. I do want to have a portion of my day that is fun hence the guitar; and I do want the kids to develop hence the math/science/swim classes.

Your situation probably isn’t as unique as you think it is. There are just a lot of high earners who don’t post case studies. Our net income is higher than yours. Our expenses are WAY lower than yours. Therefore, no need for a case study as it would make a pretty boring one.

Well, as is pointed out elsewhere my friends don't tend to discuss finances openly. So if I'm boring it's good - I just need to find a model to follow; hopefully this post will give me pointers.

In any case, the issue isn’t in your computations or in your savings — you have done very well with savings. The issue is mainly in your spending. I’m sorry, but $2000 on food and supplies is ridiculous. Our family of five adults and one child spends approx. $800 on food. Have you broken down your grocery bills by line item and analyzed which things are truly necessary and which are just “wants”? And for the necessary things, is there a way to get it for cheaper? Maybe shop at a cheaper grocery store? Buy the store brand instead of the name brand?

I agree this is a first place to save. Most of the shopping is done at Costco with occasional trips to QFC for forgotten milk. Is it better to reduce the budget gradually or go whole hog and set a 800 goal straight away?


Your clothing bill is also quite high. Shop at thrift stores, and have your 16 year old start purchasing their own clothes. If they need money, they can get a part-time job.

Well, the small one is growing fast and so some of it is replenishing his wardrobe. The other part is replacing worn out items (shoes mostly). While I realize thrift stores will be cheaper I would prefer not to go there - what's the point of being a high earner if I can't buy new clothing occasionally?

You do need to clarify whether your Taxable account is actually in savings, or whether that was a typo.

My bad on phrasing choice. It's a taxable brokerage account invested in a mix of stocks.

Are you following IRS rules for 401k? Its the same limit for both pretax and roth 401k. $19k total for each person between all accounts. If you're asking whether you should be doing a roth or not, I think you'd see more benefit from a traditional 401k because it would reduce your taxes and you are at the highest earning point of your life.

I've used my annual bonus to fully fund the $19k pretax contribution to a traditional 401k, plus get employer match. The wife sends 50% of her paycheck to 401k so she's going to deposit ~13k in hers. I suggested setting her contribution ratio to 100% but she wants to see some money in the bank (easier psychologically).

The contributions to Roth are done via backdoor conversion - I deposit post tax money and it gets reclassified as Roth.

Also, the one glaring thing I see here that no one has already addressed is that your wife is bringing in $500 a month, and yet you're paying $1500 a month in child care for the 4 yr old. Is this is a full time preschool program that you're specifically sending the kiddo to for the purposes of preschool or childcare that's costing you $1000 a month more than your wife makes? Your financial situation should improve vastly once this last kiddo goes off to public school. I'm assuming that he/she will start Kindergarten next August? That's another $18k removed from your annual spending.

First, as I mentioned the pretax paycheck of my wife is higher, but half is going to 401k. I listed only the "take home" portion.

Even with the young one at preschool and the wife working a couple of days a week, there's not that much free time between driving the kids to classes, household chores etc. Also, he's getting great preparation for school there education-wise and social skills-wise. Not sure I could've given him that at home.

When he starts kindergarten (next year presumably), the bill will drop but we will need after-school care I guess. So say 500/month instead of 1500? I'm sure with my experience with older kids there will be classes etc that will just replace the makeup of this budget, but not wipe it out completely :)


Others have tackled some of the bigger issues.  On the "fully funded" college funds, is it your goal to pay for all of your kid's college?  It would seem $130k won't be sufficient to do that if they want to go to a private school.  With your income and assets, the kids are unlikely to get any financial aid.  I think with your assets outside of retirement accounts, even if you had zero income your kids would be unlikely to get any financial aid.  With your savings, you could easily pay for college out of cash flow, but the added expense is something to consider if your plan is to cover 100% of education.

I was aiming for financing a public school. I also would prefer to not have them accumulate student debt as I can affort that. My take is that I'm responsible to educate them through to bachelor's degree and they are on their own from that point. If they get admitted into a place that requires 60k/year I will probably think twice before sending them to it - not sure it's worth it in comparison to UW in Seattle which charges $12k/year.

Preschool is fine. Before your wife's salary was disclosed, it just wasn't obvious whether anyone had looked to see if it was a wash financially.

Private college is rarely a great financial decision. If your kid wants to go to Harvard to study political science and become a lobbyist, it's a great place to make connections with rich people. But if your kid wants to be successful, a state school with a carefully chosen major and great grades will get them far enough to have success beyond what they could ever imagine.

Do your older 2 kids enjoy guitar? They are old enough to be taking band, orchestra or guitar lessons at school. They don't have to love or do the same instrument as you if it isn't their thing. Music classes at school are great because they're free, you don't have to listen to them practice as much, and they're exposed to a huge variety of musical options.

Also RE: public school and science / math. Your kids can join science, robotics, math club or whatever else is offered for free. It will look much better on a college application too. See if their grades and progress make them eligible for advanced, honors or AP courses. That will provide more intellectual stimulation than other science enrichments.

Definitely encourage your wife to put 100% of her salary in a 401k. You don't have any more options to find extra tax deferred space. is she earning any matching into her retirement? If she is keen on working after you quit, her salary alone will provide a huge buffer towards your annual spending. If you're planning on doing any open source work, I bet you'll find options for meaningful paid part time gigs or work in the future. You have many options with where you are...

MoneyizHere

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2019, 01:27:41 PM »
Quote
I haven't gone to college in the US so I don't know this for sure: is there a correlation between tuition and earnings potential? I think that there might be to a point and going to a good public college is sufficient. 70k/year is 5800/month which is unsustainable even with my insane income. Especially when both kids are at college at the same time, 13k/month is a tad high. :)

So, I would try to guide them to a good school which is not so crazily expensive. Or hope for a merit based scholarship if such beasts exist.

I think the cream should rise to the top.  Without meeting an actual candidate - the recruiter could only make assumptions.  High GPA, difficult to get into university, this candidate must be great - so lets go there to recruit. 

You may want to direct your kids to the expensive school's career fairs (not necessarily to actually attending the university).  Once the recruiters meet them and if they are impressed by the first person contact they'll get a shot at an interview.  If your kids want to go to a particular company for work - they need to figure out where those companies are actually doing active recruitment.  Once they meet the recruiters - its a level playing field.  Recruiters can't possibly go to EVERY university -so they concentrate on those they think they'll find the talent.

 

sleepless_in_seattle

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2019, 02:39:10 PM »
Private college is rarely a great financial decision. If your kid wants to go to Harvard to study political science and become a lobbyist, it's a great place to make connections with rich people. But if your kid wants to be successful, a state school with a carefully chosen major and great grades will get them far enough to have success beyond what they could ever imagine.

Yeah, I had an inkling this was the case, thanks for confirming!

Do your older 2 kids enjoy guitar? They are old enough to be taking band, orchestra or guitar lessons at school. They don't have to love or do the same instrument as you if it isn't their thing. Music classes at school are great because they're free, you don't have to listen to them practice as much, and they're exposed to a huge variety of musical options.

I actually started after them, seeing how much fun they had. They've taken guitar electives at school but they're more advanced than what the curriculum there offers, unfortunately.


Also RE: public school and science / math. Your kids can join science, robotics, math club or whatever else is offered for free. It will look much better on a college application too. See if their grades and progress make them eligible for advanced, honors or AP courses. That will provide more intellectual stimulation than other science enrichments.

Their grades are good, nothing to complain about.

They are taking AP at school already, attend clubs etc. I actually encouraged my son and he started a chemistry club at his school last year; partly to learn and partly to look good on the college application :)

If I didn't have the money I'd drop these classes but I still think the quality of instruction I get there is far better than what they'd see at school. Happy to point you to the specific classes they're taking in a PM.

I think the cream should rise to the top.  Without meeting an actual candidate - the recruiter could only make assumptions.  High GPA, difficult to get into university, this candidate must be great - so lets go there to recruit. 

You may want to direct your kids to the expensive school's career fairs (not necessarily to actually attending the university).  Once the recruiters meet them and if they are impressed by the first person contact they'll get a shot at an interview.  If your kids want to go to a particular company for work - they need to figure out where those companies are actually doing active recruitment.  Once they meet the recruiters - its a level playing field.  Recruiters can't possibly go to EVERY university -so they concentrate on those they think they'll find the talent.


As someone working for a top 5 company in my space, I know how the process works. I've seen people with a liberal arts degree who self taught CS and got hired. As long as you can get a referral and an interview you have a shot.

BTW, I don't know if it's relevant for this community, but I'm happy to share my experience with interview prep for getting into these top tier tech companies. I've done it for my friends and they've had great success. Happy to do it if someone wants it. Maybe I can start a consultancy business out of it? :)
« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 02:53:26 PM by sleepless_in_seattle »

reeshau

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2019, 03:30:05 PM »

You spend a shit load of money on luxuries and extravagances, but because you earn a shit load of money, it's not hurting you.  So that's a full neutral.

Luxuries? I don't have a yacht, waterfront property, Tesla, private buttler. Is my spending on classes a luxury?

Maybe I don't have a good basis of comparison, but looking at my friends and coworkers I don't lead the flashiest lifestyle. My house is more modest, cars are older, we travel less and dont shop at Whole Foods. So if there's someone in my income bracket that can share how they lead mustachian approved lifestyle, that would serve like a great basis for comparison.

Why is your spending tied to your income?  That is not at all a message of MMM.  You have a poor reference group, which is helping you justify your wants as some kind of need.  Get a new reference group.  I bet I can tally up far more people living with less, than you can examples of people who "need" more.

I think if you stop working, you're going to keep spending like crazy.  So you will eat through your savings, which is what it's there for.  I don't think there's any worry there and I think you're able to monitor balances and project where you'll be when you kick the bucket.

Well, the goal is to dial it down so I don't spend like crazy.

FWIW, the high paying job is nice and has its perks, but I'd leave in a heartbeat if I could.  The wife seems to take a different view :)

Good news!  You can quit tomorrow!  You just need to change your spending.  And not even to drastic levels by most standards; still quite comfortable and spendy.  But given your answers so far, it sounds more likely that you will keep working, and complaining about it.  That's probably common in your reference group, too.
 Just understand that it is all a choice--either way--and be at peace with that choice.  Your life will be better for it.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 03:36:40 PM by reeshau »

sleepless_in_seattle

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2019, 03:44:01 PM »
Why is your spending tied to your income?  That is not at all a message of MMM.  You have a poor reference group, which is helping you justify your wants as some kind of need.  Get a new reference group.  I bet I can tally up far more people living with less, than you can examples of people who "need" more.

Oh, I'm sure that my spending is in the "not necessary for survival" category; hence the comment on how I'd cut it in leaner times.  It's definitely a "want" not a "need".

Good news!  You can quit tomorrow!  You just need to change your spending.  And not even to drastic levels by most standards; still quite comfortable and spendy.  But given your answers so far, it sounds more likely that you will keep working, and complaining about it.  That's probably common in your reference group, too.
 Just understand that it is all a choice--either way--and be at peace with that choice.  Your life will be better for it.

Heh, I'm trying to balance the two extremes - quit tomorrow and live on a "needs" only budget or work for a bit more and dial down spending a bit so that I can sustain my somewhat spendy lifestyle into RE.  Nothing crazy, but want to give my kids a better than average education, be able to finance some fun experiences and travel.

Hope this makes sense.


habanero

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2019, 04:10:48 PM »
I'll chime in and give you some credit. Yes, your spending is quite big and in some areas a fair bit over the top, but frankly - given your income I think you have done a fairly fine job in avoiding lifestyle creep. There are a few "wants" in there that are quite costly, but it could have been So Much Worse given how much dough you bring home. Maybe you don't like eating out or whatever - but spending "only" 300 bucks / month at restaurants for a family of 5 with your income is quite an achievement.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 04:15:46 PM by habaneroNorway »

sleepless_in_seattle

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2019, 04:47:31 PM »
I'll chime in and give you some credit. Yes, your spending is quite big and in some areas a fair bit over the top, but frankly - given your income I think you have done a fairly fine job in avoiding lifestyle creep. There are a few "wants" in there that are quite costly, but it could have been So Much Worse given how much dough you bring home. Maybe you don't like eating out or whatever - but spending "only" 300 bucks / month at restaurants for a family of 5 with your income is quite an achievement.

Thanks. It feels a bit like "good job not developing a drug addiction" :)

« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 05:18:36 PM by sleepless_in_seattle »

jps

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2019, 04:52:32 PM »
It feels a bit like "good job not developing a drug addition" :)

That could be a fair analogy, if you had told us that you were in a job/situation where 99% of people around you had developed a drug addiction. Then it would be worth congratulating!

I think you have done well given how big your income is. I get the sense that most people who have that much coming in (and who don't frequent MMM) just spend nearly all of it. Your ~50% savings rate, while still having probably almost every thing that you could want and dream of, is great.

I can't add anything that someone else hasn't already said here. Trimming up the budget is really a choice of what your goals are and how badly you want to achieve them. You have done good work so far, though. Everything else after this point is gravy.

habanero

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2019, 04:53:38 PM »
You're welcome. Also, your big spending items are avoidable and will eventually go away, it's not like you need to make 400k a year to pay for the mansion, the boat, the holiday homes, the fancy cars, the gardener the pool boy and so on.

Im all for you spending 60 bucks / hour on guitar lessions if it gives you and the kids joy. You can afford it. And it ain't forever.

pdxvandal

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2019, 10:36:40 PM »
A guy with $3.4M net worth asking for financial advice from strangers on the interwebs ... mmmmkay.

Ben Kurtz

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2019, 10:50:45 PM »
According to some calculators I've seen online, liquid assets FI is 4 years away. Is that accurate in your opinion?

In the general opinion of this community: Yes. Four more years would be the best estimate of time to FIRE, based on the numbers in the scenario you present. 

In fact, this question is asked and answered in a 2012 post from the main blog: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/

On your numbers it has been calculated that you have a ~50% savings rate.  According to the table set forth in that blog post, the estimated time to FIRE with that savings rate is 16 years, starting from a net worth of zero.  You also say you are 12 years into your sojourn in the U.S. and your current savings / earnings pattern, so four more years brings you to 16 years.  Your numbers aren't presented in a way that makes calculating your savings rate perfectly easy, and I suspect your rate might be slightly higher than 50% so the time-to-FIRE might be a little shorter than that. 

And as that blog post should make clear, the specific number of dollars at stake doesn't much figure into the calculation.  Time-to-FIRE is really just a function of how various dimensionless percentages interact.  Accordingly, to a first approximation and using some fairly stylized and rigid assumptions, the calculation of time-to-FIRE is the same for the family earning $120,000 per year and spending $60,000 of it as it is for the family earning $240,000 per year and spending $120,000 of it -- 16 years.

Of course, the interesting stuff that has kept this board in operation for years and years on end is the examination of those assumptions -- just how closely any given case really matches them -- and discussions of how to adjust one's personal performance in order to change some of the spending and savings ratios realized in daily life.  Especially if the person writing in is dissatisfied in some way with his current trajectory.

As all the other posters should have made abundantly clear: You can quit tomorrow and expect to sustain a very high standard of living based entirely on your passive income for the rest of your days (and if your wife keeps working even better).  Or you can continue in your present course for the next +/- 4 years and expect by the end of that time to reach a net worth which will allow you to maintain basically your current standard of living for the rest of your days.  Or you can make some minor tweaks to your current level of fairly lavish spending and meet in the middle somewhere.  Only you can figure out how much you like guitar lessons vs. how much you like or dislike having to go to the office every day.

The real question you should be asking yourself, which comes up fairly regularly for people who write into this forum with your kind of profile (there are a steady supply of such folks), is not on the nuts and bolts of accumulating enough investments to support an opulent lifestyle entirely on passive income. Rather, it is on the question of what you think you want to do with your time if/when you leave the daily grind.  You've mentioned some ideas on this point in passing, but it sounds like there is a lot more planning you could be doing around your "encore career" or "encore pursuit" once you pull the plug.

So my advice is to keep on plugging away at the daily grind while (1) figuring out what you really want to do when you grow up and (2), as others here have been strongly suggesting, making at least some moderate attempts to make your spending more efficient in order to boost your savings and reduce your expected post-FIRE burn rate.  Exercising the "frugality muscles" is always a worthwhile workout.

Oh yeah, and make sure you diversify out of your large holdings in company stock as swiftly and regularly as you can.  Think "Enron."

sleepless_in_seattle

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2019, 10:38:54 AM »
A guy with $3.4M net worth asking for financial advice from strangers on the interwebs ... mmmmkay.

And it's a problem because? Most of what I've learned after college (which was a long time ago) is based on listening to strangers on the interwebs. There is, in fact, this guy, Peter Adeney, I've been reading about lately. Should I listen to him? :)

On a less snarky note, I don't have financial education and so asking people who have thought about this topic to double check my math seems like a valid request, no? The fact that I have a high net worth is thanks to the incredible luck I had with my profession choice and workplace choices; not due to some financial genius.

sleepless_in_seattle

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2019, 10:47:07 AM »
@Ben Kurtz, thanks so much for the detailed response!

The real question you should be asking yourself, which comes up fairly regularly for people who write into this forum with your kind of profile (there are a steady supply of such folks), is not on the nuts and bolts of accumulating enough investments to support an opulent lifestyle entirely on passive income. Rather, it is on the question of what you think you want to do with your time if/when you leave the daily grind.  You've mentioned some ideas on this point in passing, but it sounds like there is a lot more planning you could be doing around your "encore career" or "encore pursuit" once you pull the plug.

Great point! Any pointers on how to start doing that? My vague ideas on what I would do if I didn't have a 5days/week job are:

  • Volunteer as a teacher for some of the math/coding classes (the same ones my kids attend). In fact I've signed up to do it in the upcoming school year; I'm sure there's some small salary there but I haven't even asked about it yet :) I'm more interested in trying myself as a teacher.
  • Get a master's degree. I realized that I'm more interested in formal post-grad education now than when I was 20.
  • Spend more time with my 4yo; esp when he starts school. I'd rather meet him after school at 3pm than have another afterschool care.
  • Contribute to some open source project/work remotely/freelance.
  • Standard stuff on "exercise more"/"have more time to practice guitar"

While I know what to do for #1, #3, #5; I'm less certain about #2 and #4.

Oh yeah, and make sure you diversify out of your large holdings in company stock as swiftly and regularly as you can.  Think "Enron."

Totally makes sense. I've been holding the last year worth of vested stock just to see if I can get some "higher risk/higher reward" going. It's traded sideways so far. My goal is to keep the company stock below 10% of my total investment account.

affordablehousing

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2019, 11:03:20 AM »
I think there are tons of shades of mustachianism on this forum and it's brave to set yourself up for bashing with a case study as it is all too easy to be influenced by your peer group to discern between relative and absolute frugality. It seems to me that you are saving a good bit of money, and when you're getting paid ~$220 an hour at your job, you ought to be able to hire and support some service economy staff like cleaners or class teachers.

RE: the discussion on colleges, I think you are just at the income point where a good private college could be tempting, but still seem really expensive. You probably could be getting some financial aid at your income level that would help make things easier. I would let your kids interests and aptitudes dictate what route to pursue. I wouldn't get too discouraged about not being able to afford it yet.

I think in terms of your highest and best use. Right now, without you really knowing what you want to do in terms of contributions to yourself, the world, humanity, etc., except the typical "be more present, do fun stuff, be a more involved parent" answer (which is valuable in its own right), I think a cushy high paying job is your highest and best use. Soak that sucker for all she's worth.

Metalcat

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2019, 11:25:39 AM »
Well, contrary to what you think, your numbers are actually not at all uncommon compared to a lot of people around here.

I've seen countless case studies of people who make hundreds of thousands and spend 100-150K/year, while living a lifestyle that is rather modest compared to their compatriots.

So if you are looking for a model to follow, mosey on down to the case studies and see what other high earner/high spender types are up to, or head on over the Bogleheads, which is far more likely to provide the kind of guidance you are looking for.

As for the numbers, the math makes sense regardless of the numbers involved, so don't worry about that.

From my perspective though, I don't think you should be looking for any kind of model to follow as one of the biggest mistakes people make in life is to follow prescribed paths instead of introspecting and forging their own.

What should you spend? How much should you save? What should your risk tolerance be? Who knows!

That's actually the main benefit of the blog and the forum. It isn't even really the whole retirement thing, it's learning to think for yourself, to fully understand how to utilize money to facilitate building your best life, and to realize that all of the rules and metrics out there are pretty fucking arbitrary.




affordablehousing

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2019, 01:57:29 PM »
great post Malkynn! People seem to post to the forum for all kinds of reasons, to air agitation, to boast, to inspire, to invite praise, to inveigle the humble brag, but this is a sort of anonymous therapy for those that worry about money and those that worry about not worrying about money. The OP doesn't have anything to ask, I think it just wants confirmation that they are great. The lurking question is about what gives fulfillment and satisfaction.

Side note, but I always find it interesting when couples set up a dynamic with one high earner, and the other getting beer money versus two working professionals. The forum seems to get a lot of each type of post and I always wondered how net happiness fared in each case.

Metalcat

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2019, 02:04:00 PM »
great post Malkynn! People seem to post to the forum for all kinds of reasons, to air agitation, to boast, to inspire, to invite praise, to inveigle the humble brag, but this is a sort of anonymous therapy for those that worry about money and those that worry about not worrying about money. The OP doesn't have anything to ask, I think it just wants confirmation that they are great. The lurking question is about what gives fulfillment and satisfaction.

Side note, but I always find it interesting when couples set up a dynamic with one high earner, and the other getting beer money versus two working professionals. The forum seems to get a lot of each type of post and I always wondered how net happiness fared in each case.

I think the OP is just looking for his tribe and doesn't see himself in the various blogs he's read, which is valid.

However, it's usually a good idea to read a bit before posting in a forum, because it became immediately obvious to me within a single day of reading that a lot of people here were high earning and high spending. So OP pretty much stumbled face first into his tribe without realizing it.

sleepless_in_seattle

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2019, 03:11:17 PM »
@affordablehousing - I didn't come here looking for confirmation I'm great. I think I phrased my questions pretty clearly in the body of the post. As probably many others, I don't have other ways to validate my RE math.

@Malkynn - I looked through case stuides before posting and didn't find one for high earner/high spend situation. Maybe was too impatient, I did spend ~week lurking before this post :)

Metalcat

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2019, 03:57:24 PM »
@affordablehousing - I didn't come here looking for confirmation I'm great. I think I phrased my questions pretty clearly in the body of the post. As probably many others, I don't have other ways to validate my RE math.

@Malkynn - I looked through case stuides before posting and didn't find one for high earner/high spend situation. Maybe was too impatient, I did spend ~week lurking before this post :)

There really are TONS of people here in your income/spending range.

Just post your specific questions and you will get tons of feedback.

Now, brace yourself, you will get a lot of criticism of your spending as well, same with every other high spender who has ever posted here. Just don't take it personally and you will find the answers that you are looking for.

That said...I'm still not really clear what answers you are looking for. As I said before, the math works no matter what the numbers are.

What are you feeling you aren't getting from the blogs you've read and case studies you've looked at? What about spending more than 60K makes you feel like the wealth of info is somehow not applicable to you??

Honestly, just participate and you will learn whatever you need to and you will quickly find out that you aren't rare here at all.

sleepless_in_seattle

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2019, 04:28:34 PM »
Now, brace yourself, you will get a lot of criticism of your spending as well, same with every other high spender who has ever posted here. Just don't take it personally and you will find the answers that you are looking for.

For sure. I found the discussion above very productive and helpful. So very grateful to all the folks who chimed in.

That said...I'm still not really clear what answers you are looking for. As I said before, the math works no matter what the numbers are.

Typical MMM blog post talks about income of ~60k, food budget of $70/week and savings needed of 750k (living on 30k/yr). Please agree that my situation is very different; both due to having a different family makeup, living in a lower COL area and lifestyle choices. Seeing how this math works for me was a great help.

What are you feeling you aren't getting from the blogs you've read and case studies you've looked at? What about spending more than 60K makes you feel like the wealth of info is somehow not applicable to you??

Honestly, just participate and you will learn whatever you need to and you will quickly find out that you aren't rare here at all.

Planning to participate more...

For now, seems like my homework is to actually plan what RE could look like, beyond "don't go to the office" part.

I am also planning to work on boosting that savings rate as discussed.

Peachtea

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2019, 06:30:43 AM »
Re your groceries, the interesting thing is that you’re somehow spending more at Costco than people who buy specialty organic stuff from stores like Whole Foods. We used to grocery shop at Whole Foods, although we were not particular about buying organic. Our monthly average of for food and personal care was $550/month for 2 adults. Even if you ignore the concept bulk buying/cooking for a family and scale that to 5 adults, that’s still only $1400/month for 5.

Here’s a family that was spending $1800 on a very specialize, organic, local co-op diet.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/case-studies/case-study-please-help-me-whittle-down-our-budget!/

So I guess I would look at how much food you might be wasting by buying in extra bulk when you don’t need it and whether your Costco grocery budget actually includes things like clothes and other trinkets they sell. Try menu planning (plan what you’ll eat for a week, make a list of what you need for that, and stick to your list when shopping), only shopping for groceries once a week, and shopping at Aldi or even whatever a “regular” grocery store is in your local area.

elaine amj

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2019, 06:59:25 AM »
Thinking about what FIRE life looks like to you is likely one of the best exercises you can do.

MMM retired extremely early because they were two engineers living only a small amount above the poverty line. They chose FIRE instead of more luxuries. Then again, he felt they were already living a wildly luxurious life and didn't need any more.

I didn't pare my own expenses quite so low so my numbers are higher than MMM. That said, I too decided a simpler life was sufficient for me and cut out a lot of luxuries I didn't value enough so I could retire at 39. My DH has decided he wants a few more luxuries in our travels so will likely work an extra couple of years to pad the stash a bit more.

You just have to decide what is sufficient for you and your family and figure out how many years of work it will take to fund that. There's always ways to spend more money. And luxury is certainly nice. If you feel it is worth more years of your working life, go for it.

The most important thought I learned from MMM was the concept of "enough". When I have "enough", I really don't need more. And it was really, really interesting how many things I didn't "need" when I realized it would "cost" me more years of work.

Don't get me wrong - I don't deprive myself of the things I care about. Yes, I have a $50 yard sale couch in my living room - but we go on a lavish vacation every year (cruises/Disney/Asia/Europe) and travel 1-2 times a month somewhere.  Some thing I will work extra for, some things I won't.

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sleepless_in_seattle

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2019, 09:22:34 AM »
Thanks @Peachtea and @elaine amj !

Re. groceries - definitely looking to cut to $1500. I think this won't be too hard, will let you all know how it goes in a month or two.

The most interesting aspect of the discussion here for me was realization I needed to figure out what post RE life would be like. I am open for suggestions on how to go about figuring that out. My ideas here, as stated above, are around getting a master's, volunteering, or finding a part time/remote work on some software project. If anyone has pointers for the latter I'm interested to know (or point me to the place in the forum where I can ask).

I definitely would prefer to stop the 5days/week job which I had in some form or another since my early 20s. 20+ years is enough IMHO and I am not looking forward to 20 more. Very few luxuries would justify that.

SwordGuy

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2019, 11:57:36 AM »
I definitely would prefer to stop the 5days/week job which I had in some form or another since my early 20s. 20+ years is enough IMHO and I am not looking forward to 20 more. Very few luxuries would justify that.

Not even twenty years of two new supermodels a night would be enough to tempt me.

Though I might tough it out for a year or three. :)

secondcor521

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2019, 12:12:15 PM »
The most interesting aspect of the discussion here for me was realization I needed to figure out what post RE life would be like. I am open for suggestions on how to go about figuring that out. My ideas here, as stated above, are around getting a master's, volunteering, or finding a part time/remote work on some software project. If anyone has pointers for the latter I'm interested to know (or point me to the place in the forum where I can ask).

I definitely would prefer to stop the 5days/week job which I had in some form or another since my early 20s. 20+ years is enough IMHO and I am not looking forward to 20 more. Very few luxuries would justify that.

The way I handled this was to make a list of all the things I thought I wanted to do.

When I FIREd, my plan was to do stuff until I got bored, then do something off my list.

In actual fact, I've only done a few things off my list.  I've done other things which have also been good.

I did go through a period where I thought I should be obligated to complete my list.  I didn't like the trapped feelings of obligation that came along with those thoughts, so I quit thinking that way.

Similarly, I also feel free to add things to the list and remove things from the list.

I certainly don't ever expect I'll run out of things to do.

MonkeyJenga

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2019, 12:32:42 PM »
The most interesting aspect of the discussion here for me was realization I needed to figure out what post RE life would be like. I am open for suggestions on how to go about figuring that out. My ideas here, as stated above, are around getting a master's, volunteering, or finding a part time/remote work on some software project. If anyone has pointers for the latter I'm interested to know (or point me to the place in the forum where I can ask). 

What do you currently do in your free time?

This book might help: http://www.erniezelinski.com/How-to-Retire-Happy,-Wild,-and-Free.html

sleepless_in_seattle

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2019, 02:45:21 PM »
What do you currently do in your free time?

I don't have much free time, that's part of the problem.

In what I have it is, in no particular order:
  • Playing with kids (mostly the 4yo, the teens prefer to stay in their rooms)
  • Guitar practice
  • Skiing in winter, biking in summer
  • House work (car maintenance, yard maintenance, cleaning)
  • Meeting friends (either inviting them over or going to their place)

I don't know if driving the kids to various afterschool classes counts as "free time", but I maintain it doesn't :)

In the same vein, here's a list of things I would like to do if I had more free time
  • Ski more, and not on a weekend where you spend 50% of the time in the line
  • Do more mobile programming
  • Do some Coursera or local community college classes in Physics, AI, Chemistry etc.
  • Travel

This book might help: http://www.erniezelinski.com/How-to-Retire-Happy,-Wild,-and-Free.html

Thanks! Ordered from the library :)

BicycleB

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2019, 02:46:52 PM »
I don't have financial education and so asking people who have thought about this topic to double check my math seems like a valid request, no? The fact that I have a high net worth is thanks to the incredible luck I had with my profession choice and workplace choices; not due to some financial genius.

@sleepless_in_seattle, this is one of the most honest self-assessments I've seen on the forums ever. I wasn't even going to answer until you wrote this, but - Bravo!!

So here's a string of quick responses:
1. Mucho support for the people who said minimize the stock in your company but, even more importantly, shift to less cash and more stock index fund investing, to the extent you and your wife can emotionally handle not selling stock during market drops. Financially, a portfolio with 50% or more stock tends to outperform other portfolios over a period of decades, as long as you don't sell in down markets. The best technique for this is to choose and stick to a stable stock/bond proportion, and annually rebalance to match it. For example, in my financial investments, I shoot for 70% stock vs 30% bonds/cash. You could do 60/40 or even 50/50, but 25/75 is very low. If you're planning to live another 40-50 years instead of just 20, it's safer to have 50% stock or more.

2. Re groceries, I support the many people who say $2000 is high. I spend about $160 for one person, similar to the $800/ 5 people target. There are numerous threads on thrifty groceries and cooking. That said, since you have family agreement issues, I support gradual change and the $1500 target.

3. The time/effort tradeoff can go a lot of ways in your spending level and income level. You can achieve huge advantages with modest time investments, and they seem easy after you do them, but they seem hard at first. If your spouse is not on board, even harder. Consider reading the spouse conversion thread, using only techniques that would be appreciated and respected by your spouse. Marriages are important, treasure the one you have!

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/how-to-convert-your-so-to-mmm-in-50-awesome-steps/

4. Like others, I agree you could quit today if you wanted, AND if you make modest behavior changes to cover the cost.

5. Like others, agree that 4 years of staying the course at work would put you at FI with no behavior changes, barring a stock market crash about 3 years from now.

6. Strong agree re your educational instincts.

7. TBH, what jumps out the most is the non-agreement of you and your wife. Hugely important. I view this as bigger than any of the other things, to the point where everything else is mere detail by comparison.

8. Re 7, I am willing to assume you and your wife love each other, and wish to stay married, and that this is a good decision. I will strongly support it. So in my view, coming to agreement with her about how to live a life where the whole family thrives, including you and her, is the biggest key. This, not item 3, is the true starting point. Other items are tools, warmup exercises, etc.

9. With 8 in mind, I note that you're the one working, and she's the one whose identity is bound up with work. If she keeps working and you quit, how would she feel?

10. If 9 happened, and you saved the child care fees by doing child care yourself when needed, and you also save $500/mo or more on groceries by taking charge of the shopping and cooking, I think you could quit tonight and be FI right now, still taking guitar lessons. How would you feel about that? How would your wife feel?


macmoneysaver

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2019, 12:07:13 PM »
Congrats, you are in good shape.  I also agree w SwordGuy.

But here is the thing, will you still spend that much on food and enrichment when the older two move out of the house?  You should base your calculations on what you expect your expenses to be after you retire, not current expenses.  Someone mentioned your taxes will go way down, and they likely will--so calculate that.  Whatever child-dependent expenses you have, plan on those disappearing as your kids move out.

Also, it appears you did not count your employer provided stock in your net worth, I know it is 12K/month, but how much do you have?  You need to count that in your assets.

Peace

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2019, 03:53:52 PM »
OP, I’m going to go against the grain and I would really cut anything. Sure, your expenses are high, that’s ok. You earn quite a bit and there’s no reason to give up the cleaner of those classes. Maybe that food bill but otherwise, do your thing. No, you can’t count the house. You can definitely become FIRED in 4 years, your FI now, only because so much is optional. If the worst happened, you’ve got a paid off house and enough money to live without work. So congrats on that. Enjoy your best life, you only get one.

sleepless_in_seattle

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #46 on: August 27, 2019, 05:02:45 PM »
Thanks  everyone for the replies.

Here's an update for August:

On the plus side:
* fired the cleaner (saves ~$350/month)
* fired the lawn maintenance (saves $80/month, not much but why pay for something my teen kids can do?)
* doing mental math while at Costco to estimate the final bill; results in ~$150-$200 per week compared to ~$300. Grocery bill ~$1300 so far this month; 1 more week to go :)

On the other hand:
* the wife signed up for a class she wanted to take for a while; tuition payment of $600
* I signed up for a class (within my "funny money" budget), but still $400 this month

All in all, total spending so far this month is ~8500; which is lower than usual if you can believe it; and that's including the tuition payments above.

The main negative is the discussion with the wife. She keeps questioning the idea of "why do you want to quit when you're good at your job". What's more disconcerting, even though she seems to agree with my request to reduce spending; I still constantly see shopping trips popping up in Mint. :( Ideas on how to convince her without destroying the marriage welcome.

seattlecyclone

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #47 on: August 27, 2019, 08:27:53 PM »
Hi there!

I FIREd earlier this month in Seattle. I worked for a big tech company too.

Our household income was never quite as high as yours, but it wasn't that much lower in our peak years (we both switched to part time work with a proportional pay cut after our older son was born -- he's 3½ now).

Our net worth is also in the same general ballpark as yours, though again a bit lower. Our house is worth about the same. As to investments, we have more than you do in retirement accounts and less in taxable.

Where we differ considerably is in spending habits. I summarized our spending for the past couple of years in this journal post. While I think we have more than enough saved to maintain our lifestyle indefinitely, I can't really say the same about you.

Keep doing what you're doing and you'll probably be able to quit in a few years (market willing). Change up your spending habits a bit and you could easily accelerate that date up as far as today if you wish.

The question is: what do you value more? In your previous posts you say you'd "leave in a heartbeat" if you could. Well...you can! You would need to make some other adjustments in your life to make that possible. Would you find the tradeoff worthwhile? Would your spouse?

sleepless_in_seattle

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #48 on: August 28, 2019, 10:47:16 AM »
@seattlecyclone I read your journal; I don't know how you managed to spend 5k/year on groceries; thats 420/month. I'm currently targeting 1500 for the month and that's without anything too crazy. I have 2 teens at home; maybe that's part of the reason? Curious to learn how people manage to get the grocery shopping done on such a budget...

Re. fire today - some of this is wanting a certain lifestyle which requires additional 3 years at p50 to work. I think it's an acceptable deal given that I find the work interesting ~50% of the time. After 3 years, I could continue my current lifestyle + travel which is an appealing prospect.

Metalcat

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Re: FI in 4 years? Help me check the (non-standard) numbers
« Reply #49 on: August 28, 2019, 11:13:49 AM »
@seattlecyclone I read your journal; I don't know how you managed to spend 5k/year on groceries; thats 420/month. I'm currently targeting 1500 for the month and that's without anything too crazy. I have 2 teens at home; maybe that's part of the reason? Curious to learn how people manage to get the grocery shopping done on such a budget...

Re. fire today - some of this is wanting a certain lifestyle which requires additional 3 years at p50 to work. I think it's an acceptable deal given that I find the work interesting ~50% of the time. After 3 years, I could continue my current lifestyle + travel which is an appealing prospect.

We're only 2 people, but we can easily spend under $200/mo on groceries, which are not cheap where we live.

I bulk cook, we eat a almost entirely vegetarian, a lot of legumes bought in bulk, and absolutely everything made from scratch. It takes me a total of 2 hours a week, and no, I don't bake.

I have a well organized collection of over 100 recipes that I cycle through and am always adding to. If I make one with more expensive ingredients like avocados and feta, I'll balance it out with a dirt cheap recipe like spicy Asian fried cabbage, carrot, and noodles with topped with a friend egg or potato kale stew.

Our spending is actually closer to $300/mo because we always have Vega One shakes with yogurt for breakfast. If we switched to eggs/oatmeal, we could cut to well under $200.

It's really not hard, you just need to know how to cook cheap meals.

Start slow, check out sites like Budget Bytes, and start incorporating cheaper meals each week. We didn't start by trying to spend less on groceries, I legit didn't care, it just ended up this way after I decided to incorporate more vegetarian dishes and specifically sought out cheaper options.

It took about a year to switch over completely to cheap meals, but the savings was just so substantial and the food so good that it was fun.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!