Econdiva 2022 update (to "Buying a Parent a Home" thread)

[iris lily]

EconDiva’s mother wasn’t a tenant. She was the property owner and was foreclosed on. The realtor is working with the new owners.

EconDiva, sorry to pipe in here again but I wanted to come back to say I hope you don’t think my last response was insensitive in regard to your mom owning the consequences. That is not my intent at all. You getting counseling is very good as it pertains to your own health and well-being, and for determining how you will help, if at all, in this situation. I was thinking further about what appear to be mental health concerns for your mom and I thought of this analogy that I wanted to share. If your mom had cancer and refused to see a doctor for it, what would you be able to do to help her with “fixing” the cancer? You wouldn’t be able to do anything, other than continue encouraging her to see a doctor. Now, for a moment, let’s pretend the mental health issues are like a type of cancer (hypothetically thinking), is the situation not the same? You can encourage her to seek medical advice, but if she won’t do that she will only continue to get sicker. You won’t be able to cure her and bringing her into a home (whether you just pay for it or potentially live there too) with you is just going to put your own health & well-being at risk.

I know the mom here is a former owner, I just used the word “tenant” for ease of term.

[former player]

Your determination to help your mother is admirable.  One of the big problems is one that you yourself acknowledge: that she is a hoarder with untreated mental health issues who is incapable of maintaining a working, hygienic home, and also that she is intensely resistant to change on those issues - which are known to be difficult issues to resolve even given goodwill on the part of the patient.

I would hope that you could also acknowledge two other truths.  The first is that you yourself are entitled to a clean, working home that forms a safe space for you.  The second is that if you share your home with your mother at any time when she has not been successfully treated for her mental health issues then that home will not be a clean safe space for you and that you will not be able to live in harmony with your mother in that home without losing your own identity and life to your mother's problems.

I hope very much that whatever help you are able to give your mother it will not involve sharing a home with her.

[EconDiva]

I think you expectation that your brother pay something towards the upkeep of your mother, assuming he can afford it, is reasonable. In the other areas  you’re dictating to him how he needs to think and feel meaning he needs to regard her with more compassion. You don’t really get to tell him that. But really he doesn’t  have to pay anything towards her support anyway.

I don't disagree; I don't have the right to tell him how to think and feel. 

Of course she’s continuing to hoard. Also you cannot  make her take medication and I don’t know why you would get into a ongoing conflict about that, you can’t make her. Period.

No; you're right.  I can't make her.  I definitely don't want to argue about getting on/taking meds.

Boy your grandfather sure was wise.

Tell me about it...

She’s already shown 1000 times she’s not gonna pay attention to what you tell her.

I know.  Trust when I say I don't have much hope for change.

[elaine amj]

I found it really interesting when my brother mentioned some things about my mother when we were in our 30s. Growing up, I considered her an amazing mother and thought she was just about perfect.

But my brother (just a year older) had a very different experience with our mother and had far more difficult interactions with her - something I hadn’t realized.

I just remember being so shocked that my brother had such a different childhood growing up in the same family. But after that I paid more attention - and yes, my mother was always trying to “improve” him whereas I was the golden child.


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[cchrissyy]

Your determination to help your mother is admirable.  One of the big problems is one that you yourself acknowledge: that she is a hoarder with untreated mental health issues who is incapable of maintaining a working, hygienic home, and also that she is intensely resistant to change on those issues - which are known to be difficult issues to resolve even given goodwill on the part of the patient.

I would hope that you could also acknowledge two other truths.  The first is that you yourself are entitled to a clean, working home that forms a safe space for you.  The second is that if you share your home with your mother at any time when she has not been successfully treated for her mental health issues then that home will not be a clean safe space for you and that you will not be able to live in harmony with your mother in that home without losing your own identity and life to your mother's problems.

I hope very much that whatever help you are able to give your mother it will not involve sharing a home with her.

that's worth reading again and again

[iris lily]

Your determination to help your mother is admirable.  One of the big problems is one that you yourself acknowledge: that she is a hoarder with untreated mental health issues who is incapable of maintaining a working, hygienic home, and also that she is intensely resistant to change on those issues - which are known to be difficult issues to resolve even given goodwill on the part of the patient.

I would hope that you could also acknowledge two other truths.  The first is that you yourself are entitled to a clean, working home that forms a safe space for you.  The second is that if you share your home with your mother at any time when she has not been successfully treated for her mental health issues then that home will not be a clean safe space for you and that you will not be able to live in harmony with your mother in that home without losing your own identity and life to your mother's problems.

I hope very much that whatever help you are able to give your mother it will not involve sharing a home with her.

that's worth reading again and again

Yes this is really good, agreed. I would also add that OP puts her own financial stability in jeopardy if she buys her mother a place to live in. The mom will trash it. It will cause problems with neighbors. It will be a constant emotional strain, and very likely an economic strain.

That is, unless the OPcan buy a place free and clear with lots of extra money she has laying around. Whether the mom “can’t “or “”won’t” fix herself is  all the same when it comes to how it impacts EconDiva.

[BabyShark]

Econdiva, I remember the initial thread and recently found this and I don't have any advice but just wanted to say you have the thoughts of another random internet stranger. You are incredibly strong to be holding all of this.

[Dicey]

I found it really interesting when my brother mentioned some things about my mother when we were in our 30s. Growing up, I considered her an amazing mother and thought she was just about perfect.

But my brother (just a year older) had a very different experience with our mother and had far more difficult interactions with her - something I hadn’t realized.

I just remember being so shocked that my brother had such a different childhood growing up in the same family. But after that I paid more attention - and yes, my mother was always trying to “improve” him whereas I was the golden child.


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Oh boy, I can relate to this! I was the oldest and had a totally different experience with my mother than my younger siblings. Recently, my sister mentioned how hard it was for her when mom died. I said nothing aloud, but in my head I was saying, "What?"  I miss my mom in the abstract, but not her everlasting criticism. May she rest in peace.

[Sandi_k]

I found it really interesting when my brother mentioned some things about my mother when we were in our 30s. Growing up, I considered her an amazing mother and thought she was just about perfect.

But my brother (just a year older) had a very different experience with our mother and had far more difficult interactions with her - something I hadn’t realized.

I just remember being so shocked that my brother had such a different childhood growing up in the same family. But after that I paid more attention - and yes, my mother was always trying to “improve” him whereas I was the golden child.


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Oh boy, I can relate to this! I was the oldest and had a totally different experience with my mother than my younger siblings. Recently, my sister mentioned how hard it was for her when mom died. I said nothing aloud, but in my head I was saying, "What?"  I miss my mom in the abstract, but not her everlasting criticism. May she rest in peace.

A bit different from me:

my older sister perhaps saw more, but also idolized our mom more when the 'rents finally separated and divorced.

Many, many years later, I mentioned mom's out-of-control rage, and occasions of physical abuse (not horrendous, but still true).

My sister was so appalled that I wasn't on the "mom's a saint and dad done 'er wrong" train that she decided to not talk to me for 6 months.

I had a second instance (totally my inability to understand mom's need to be publicly idolized in the lead up to my wedding).  Mom said something complimentary about me - about how easy I was as a teenager - but it was also about what a good mom she had been to me in my teenage years, when I began dating my now-DH. I challenged her immediately, in front of my friends, by reminding her of how much she had hated him, and how she had therefore crafted the most ridiculous set of dating rules and curfews to obstruct any time we spent together.

She went to the restroom, where she apparently cried. My sis followed, and then came back to tell me how I needed to go comfort mom, and apologize (in my mind, for being factual).

Now that I'm older and a *little* smarter, I can see how that instance was humiliating for her. That was never my intent. But to me, shading the truths and being nostalgic (and inaccurate about the past as a result) is just not something I'm wired for. Unfortunately with two narcissists as parents, truth is the first thing to go out the window. I am so glad that both my DH and my brother are around to validate my memories, because my mom, dad, step-mom and sister have all whitewashed them, to their own benefit.

[elaine amj]

Some of it is also the passage of time tends to give memories a more pleasant glow. My mother doesn’t remember many challenging parts of my childhood and is always surprised when I remind her of the occasions when I was a brat.


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[EconDiva]

Two days from today is 'the day'.

I had called the owner last week and told him we would ensure the key is left at the house 2 days from today.

I just got off the phone with the owner and he confirmed the locks will be changed the day after.  I'm glad about this because I think she'd just continue going back and using the key to go in the house.

She is (for lack of a better word) a bit 'manic'-ish today.  Going through boxes and boxes and boxes of stuff that seems to be a futile exercise because there is no room left in her storage unit to put any more stuff in.  Piling stuff on the porch which is to be thrown away (perhaps she wants it on the porch so she can perhaps return and easily access things to keep going through?).  Throwing things and breaking them apparently.

She's mad at me for getting her to agree to the time we will leave the key.  She thinks because I made 'so many comments about how she wouldn't get everything done' that it's basically that I spoke that exact scenario into existence is what she said smh.  As if it's now 'my' fault she didn't clear out 30 years of stuff from her own home when she's been sitting in it for 2 years without working so had plenty of time to get help. 

Anyways, days like this I think my brother has made the right choice to not get involved.  48 hours from now is going to be a mess.  I've considered just not going.  But I kindof in a way want to see my childhood home for one last time..not sure why.  It will be sad to see it's 'final state'.  It did not start out this way and the home was not like that at all when I left for college.  When we moved in, this was likely a good time for my mom.  She accomplished a big thing by buying a home as a single mom on minimum wage with two children and no support from either father.  Looking back, she kept the home 'together' so to speak until both of us were out of the house; it wasn't until both of us were gone that the rapid downshift and decline in things occurred. 

I think it will be a tough day.  I am having an extremely hard time working right now.  I have been focused on subletting my apartment and looking at homes/places for us to temporarily live.  I finally reached a point this morning where I decided to just stop for now.  I pulled my apartment ad for sublease down.  It's been almost a month and no one who has set an appointment would keep it and come look at my place.  My apartment complex wouldn't let me out of my lease even knowing my story.  I even escalated it to their corporate who wouldn't do anything.  Went to see a new apartment I settled on and when I got there, no one in the office was there so I had to leave (strange); so I couldn't view the place.  I have put in two offers on houses and they were not accepted.  In short, I need to refocus on work and rest right now; and it is apparent there are some strong forces at work at the moment to keep me from moving out of my current place.

Anywho, I just want to get this over with.  As angry as I'm starting to get just listening to her waste time going through stuff she'll never make it all through, I know that this weekend will be hard as I still don't want to see her in pain.  But this chapter needs to be closed.

[iluvzbeach]

My thoughts are with you over these next several days. They will be difficult, no doubt, but you will get through this. Wishing you strength and patience. Breathe…

[six-car-habit]

   Bring the key to the house on Sunday.

 Take a picture of the outside of the house with the debris piled here and there. So in the future when someone argues ' it wasn't that bad" , just show them the picture.

 Don't go into the house for 'last minute" treasure hunting w/ mom.

    Drive Mom over to her sisters house where she is going to be staying according to page 1 of the thread.  Give her a hug, tell her you will visit next weekend, but for this upcoming week that you have to attend to, and catch up on, paying work that you have been falling behind on.  Get back in the car and drive away, don't prolong this phase.

  Turn off your phone and/ or don't answer calls from Mom until next week.

 Go home and take a nap, or eat ice cream, or do yoga, or smoke a cigarette, or all 4.  Put your phone inside your locked up car in the parking lot so you don't hear it ring.  She is going to call and pester you in the next week of being @ her sisters.  Don't take the bait !    Wait to find out the sordid details of her new co-habitation w/ Auntie.  Create some separation, and let your Mom settle in to her new reality.  7 days is not eternity.

[elaine amj]

Hoping all goes well with your Mom! This is such a frustrating, draining situation


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[EconDiva]

My thoughts are with you over these next several days. They will be difficult, no doubt, but you will get through this. Wishing you strength and patience. Breathe…

Thank you; I appreciate it.  Might employ some breathing exercises per Youtube.

[EconDiva]

   Bring the key to the house on Sunday.

 Take a picture of the outside of the house with the debris piled here and there. So in the future when someone argues ' it wasn't that bad" , just show them the picture.

 Don't go into the house for 'last minute" treasure hunting w/ mom.

    Drive Mom over to her sisters house where she is going to be staying according to page 1 of the thread.  Give her a hug, tell her you will visit next weekend, but for this upcoming week that you have to attend to, and catch up on, paying work that you have been falling behind on.  Get back in the car and drive away, don't prolong this phase.

  Turn off your phone and/ or don't answer calls from Mom until next week.

 Go home and take a nap, or eat ice cream, or do yoga, or smoke a cigarette, or all 4.  Put your phone inside your locked up car in the parking lot so you don't hear it ring.  She is going to call and pester you in the next week of being @ her sisters.  Don't take the bait !    Wait to find out the sordid details of her new co-habitation w/ Auntie.  Create some separation, and let your Mom settle in to her new reality.  7 days is not eternity.

Excellent tips and I really appreciate you taking the time to write out all of this. 

This is my second trip there this month (I was there two weekends ago) so I doubt I'll be back next weekend fyi. 

If she will let me I plan to film the house and she should too.  She needs to be able to look back and see what she was brought out of (assuming future progress is made).

[EconDiva]

Hoping all goes well with your Mom! This is such a frustrating, draining situation


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Thank you.

[EconDiva]

Your determination to help your mother is admirable.  One of the big problems is one that you yourself acknowledge: that she is a hoarder with untreated mental health issues who is incapable of maintaining a working, hygienic home, and also that she is intensely resistant to change on those issues - which are known to be difficult issues to resolve even given goodwill on the part of the patient.

I would hope that you could also acknowledge two other truths.  The first is that you yourself are entitled to a clean, working home that forms a safe space for you.  The second is that if you share your home with your mother at any time when she has not been successfully treated for her mental health issues then that home will not be a clean safe space for you and that you will not be able to live in harmony with your mother in that home without losing your own identity and life to your mother's problems.

I hope very much that whatever help you are able to give your mother it will not involve sharing a home with her.

that's worth reading again and again

I do continue to revisit this...again and again.

[rockeTree]

You are a wonderfully caring daughter going above and beyond in a really, really hard and frustrating situation. Will be thinking of you and your mom.

[Holocene]

@EconDiva How did things go last weekend?

So sorry that you are in this difficult situation.  I hope your mom is able to stay with her sister for a while and eventually find a more permanent place that doesn't involve you supporting her.  I know you're trying to do the right thing with her, but don't let it take over your own life.  You deserve to be happy and not have your life dictated by her.  Especially when she seems unwilling to get the help she needs.  I know it's easy for us internet strangers to say from a distance.  I'm sure I'd be doing the same things as you if I was in this situation.  The obligation we feel towards family can be so strong and makes things really complicated.  Keep doing your best.  We'll keep reminding you to put yourself first as much as you can.  Best of luck to you in this difficult situation!

[EconDiva]

@EconDiva How did things go last weekend?

So sorry that you are in this difficult situation.  I hope your mom is able to stay with her sister for a while and eventually find a more permanent place that doesn't involve you supporting her.  I know you're trying to do the right thing with her, but don't let it take over your own life.  You deserve to be happy and not have your life dictated by her.  Especially when she seems unwilling to get the help she needs.  I know it's easy for us internet strangers to say from a distance.  I'm sure I'd be doing the same things as you if I was in this situation.  The obligation we feel towards family can be so strong and makes things really complicated.  Keep doing your best.  We'll keep reminding you to put yourself first as much as you can.  Best of luck to you in this difficult situation!

Thank you for the kind words.

I would have posted an update sooner but I've been a bit emotionally exhausted from last weekend.

She and I aligned to leave the keys for the owner at 2 Sunday.  Of course leading up to Sunday she stated she didn't recall that discussion.  So I kept reiterating so it would be clear.  I stayed in a hotel about an hour away from 'the house' (which is normal).  I planned to leave sometime Sunday morning to head over.  My plan was never to attempt to go through everything in there, but rather to salvage any photos primarily (and any key documents or 'heirloom' type items that I knew would hold significant sentimental value for her).  I figured I'd be there for about 4 hours and I was there about 5.

Shortly after waking up that morning she called me crying and apologizing over and over.  After asking why she's sorry and what she's apologizing for, she stated she "had fallen again"...outside in the snow and couldn't get up.  For some reason I was a bit numb and insensitive to this.  She had fallen about a year ago and I was on my way to see her as this was Christmas time; when I got to the house I'd taken her straight to urgent care as she had a broken leg; then she stayed with me for a month immediately after that.  Anyways, I asked if she could get up and after repeatedly telling me she could, then I decided to trust her word and told her she should get up and back in the house.  I also told her she should understand she's likely not able to do much of anything else today with a possibly injured right arm; she stated she was rushing and was really intent on 'getting everything done' before I got there.  I have no clue what 'getting everything done' was considering the state the house was in which of course was no surprise to me.

However, what did still surprise me a 'bit' was that I had been telling her for a whole month to get the photos out and 'anything else of sentimental or other real value'.  I told her SO many times to prioritize this.  I spent over 4 hours pulling photos out..from boxes, from folders, from on the floor under boxes with a dead mouse inside, from in between clothes..just all over the house..so many family, childhood and other photos; I ended up with a small "storage container" full of photos.

As time winded down I had to resolve myself to the fact that I wouldn't 'catch' every photo.  It hit me when I came across something I'd never seen that I knew would hold sentimental value to her that was a bit 'buried' amongst other things yet I knew she had 'packed it' in this box in her own way likely thinking that box and everything in the house would eventually find its way to her storage unit I guess (?).  At the time I was adamant I would stick to the plan and when 2:00 approached I started getting text messages from the owner asking where the key was.  At first, she didn't make any signs of moving when I told her we were a half hour away and 15 minutes away, etc. from 2:00.  I am honestly not sure what she did for those 4 hours as she stayed in 'her room' on the floor with the door closed.  I did bring a few boxes to her a few times asking her to look through them quickly for photos. 

Anyhow, 2:00 came and I was tired and ready to cease this activity although it pained me to know there were several boxes I just couldn't get through.  I urged her to film/photograph the house because I stressed to her she should have the memory one day in the future of what she was brought out of..but she was adamant she did not want to.  So I started photographing/filming and suddenly she was up and moving and asked me if I'm ready to leave the key.  So I go outside with her and she gets in her car and I'm asking for the key and she starts saying how she's going to have to come back to finish what she started because there's no way she would ever leave the place like this and how everything in the house is still hers and on and on while I just keep asking for the key because I'm thinking she's about to drive off...

So of course at some point a bit of yelling between us is exchanged as she's telling me I can't tell her what to do but to make a long story short I end up saying to her that if what we need to have is a conversation with the owner then we can do it right now on speaker.  She didn't want to as she wanted to call him some other time alone which I already knew where this was going.  I called him on speaker and basically my mom told him she wanted to ask for his permission to return to continue getting things out; I kindof directed the conversation in telling her he's been very polite in allowing her to stay for this past month, that legally everything in the house is his..and she stated the owner told her to get everything out of the house and that she 'could' get everything out.  I told her 'yes...you could get everything out...by 2 pm today which we agreed to'.  Basically the conversation ended with her saying she had gotten injured that day and that slowed things down; again, it was reiterated that time is up and I need to leave the key.  The owner agreed to all of the statements I was making and she 'gave in', gave me the key and drove off.

The issue was, I was there to get the photos/heirlooms out so I could take them to her storage unit.  So after we end the call with the owner, she hands me the key and attempts to drive off..I'm like, I thought I was going to take all of these boxes I pulled out to your storage unit...she stated it didn't matter anymore and left.

[EconDiva]

Long story short, 15 minutes later she came back.  She did not retrieve nearly all of the things I pulled out of the house but she did at least take all of the photos.  I finished filming/photographing and went back to my room then 2 days later flew back to my place.

Overall it went fine I would say actually.  House was in bad condition but I expected that.  Stuff everywhere but I expected that, some resistance to leaving but I expected that and thought that would even be worse.  After all of that, I was pulling up around the corner from my hotel room and realized I left a new cashmere cardigan in the house.  D'oh!  I had it on when I entered the house and had taken it off a short while upon being inside.  I cannot believe I did that.  I was SO not happy and literally turned right back around to go straight back to get it (it cost several hundred dollars, was a recent purchase and the first time I ever spent like that on a good quality long cardigan before)...it was a bit creepy to return back right after everything for some reason.  Perhaps because when my mom had 'left the house' the first time and left me there, while I was waiting for her to return and was finishing up filming I heard noises in the back bedroom and they were fairly loud.  I stood there listening for a moment thinking maybe a rat or something was back there (?)...all I know is that I was high tailing it back to the house to get this cardigan because I did not want to go back in there once the sun set and it was already starting to set.  Plus it's just mad dark (and eery) in there generally speaking with all the lack of lights working and garbage bags and such she taped all over the windows which I tore down to be able to see while 'working' through the house but I realized she had at some point gone through behind me and somehow put some of them back up.  Anyways, I retrieved the cardigan fine.

When she returned back to the house to get the photos she sat in her car outside telling me thank you and tearing up a bit.  I tried to urge her to photograph one last time and she declined.  At one point she told me I don't understand how much she really wants to actually leave.  Earlier that morning when she called me about the fall I had asked her 'Do you think God is going to have to do something else to you to get you to STOP with all of this and get you to change directions into just leaving?'  At the time she called me about the fall I was really starting to feel like He is 'forcing her hand' in a way to just...get...on...with...it.

Anyways, I left with mixed emotions.  Overall glad I came to 'support'.  Upset we argued yet again.  Depressed at the state of the house and knowing it was my parent that lived in these conditions for so long...I really came away thinking she lived almost like a homeless person but inside of a non-functioning home.  Starting to feel a bit of resentment that I'm doing these things 'alone'.  Just a lot of emotions which I doubt I could even express all of them.  I just know I left tired and my work continues to decline.  I didn't get out of bed last weekend and this week during a meeting (I haven't been turning on my camera for weeks); my boss asked quietly why I wasn't on camera while at the same time a colleague messaged me asking if I'm ok because "I don't speak during calls anymore and she misses me speaking up and sharing my opinions which tend to help her and the rest of the Team".  I told her I'm exhausted.  And one of the other things she doesn't know (hopefully that isn't showing)...is that I'm just depressed.  This is already usually a hard time of year for me but lately I've been envisioning this whole dream of a work sabbatical dissipating.  I'd already given up on FIRE years ago.  I figured I'd "CoastFI" instead.  I'm $2k+ over budget this month and now I'm slowly starting to dip into my CoastFI funds...I think I'm getting depressed because I'm starting to envision dreams disappearing now...

The other part of all of this is I frequently have these kinda 'visions' now where I see my life and my mom's being pulled closer together and it's giving me 'panicky' thoughts.  In other words I think about her falling twice now and her state of mind and just think that 'eventually' she'll need me there very very close to her even if not in the same actual home.  I don't think I can live abroad and very close to her at the same time...anyways, I'm certainly rambling now but what I'm getting at is there is some underlying fear growing there although I also acknowledge that it's nothing unique for some children to eventually be caretakers and compromisers, sometimes sacrificing part of their lives to support their parents.  I'm just getting anxious again about trying to decide in what way I want to help in the future (because there are some major moves I want to make that would put me far away for long periods of time).  Anyways, I know decisions don't have to be made 'today' and all...and that it's up to me to decide in what way/s I will support.  I've just been down a bit of a 'depressed rabbit hole' with my thoughts lately.

So suddenly a few days ago guilt started creeping in.  After finding that one item in the house that was of sentimental value to her (and really to me as well - it was something I'd never seen before), I started to think more and more about how I was the one that really forced her to leave when she did and how the timeframe I put on it may have caused her to leave some things behind she really should have had the choice to keep.  I keep telling myself that if she would have focused on those items, that she had a month to get them out so I shouldn't feel bad.  Then I tell myself I 'know' she can't make rational choices so it's wrong for me to think she would have been able to prioritize the right things so then I feel guilty again.  Been losing a bit of sleep about it...I used to do photography and am still a bit of a photographer at heart and I cringe thinking about how many photos I probably missed.

So 2 days ago I get a call.  Its from the real estate agent who sold the home.  She called to let me know that in clearing out the home, her husband is part of the crew and ended up telling her about a few boxes that had photos in them in the back of his truck (they were in the process of continuous hauling).  She called to tell me that I didn't have to put that strict of a timeframe on getting my mom out and that we could have had another week.  I told her my mom would not have gotten the photos out in another week or another month because she is not able to process what is truly important to salvage.  The agent went into a short story of how she understood because she went through something similar with her grandmother.  She said she was just calling to say there is no way those photos would be dumped and that she had her husband have the crew set those things aside along with a few other items she was hearing were found.  She said she understands how this situation is akin to having a fire and losing much of what you have but that in this scenario it is not necessary to lose these things she is hearing are being uncovered and she knows how it feels fearing the loss of such memories which can never be recouped.  She said she's going back to the house, will sort through them and deliver them to my mom.  This helped me a lot to hear...a lot.  I really appreciated that.

[LaineyAZ]

That real estate agent is very kind.  It's good to hear those stories vs. the image of those agents being rapacious and uncaring.

Best to you for everything you're dealing with, and don't forget: This too shall pass.

[engineerjourney]

Maybe this sounds heartless.. but parents are supposed to be the caretakers, compromisers, and sacrificers... since they are the ones that brought the child into the world.  You don't owe your parent anything for them helping you survive to adulthood (and some parents barely do this even)... personally as a parent (to young children currently) I would NEVER want my children to sacrifice their dreams or quality of life for me in any way.  Set boundaries, I wouldn't try to be her caretaker at any point in time, maybe if you had a healthy relationship but you know you don't.  I hope her living with her sister is a good stop-gap for now and maybe she will figure out her next step... and if not, its not your job to do so even though I bet you feel like it is.  You are not her parent, you are not responsible for her.  Sorry if I am being too blunt :(

[EconDiva]

Maybe this sounds heartless.. but parents are supposed to be the caretakers, compromisers, and sacrificers... since they are the ones that brought the child into the world.  You don't owe your parent anything for them helping you survive to adulthood (and some parents barely do this even)... personally as a parent (to young children currently) I would NEVER want my children to sacrifice their dreams or quality of life for me in any way.  Set boundaries, I wouldn't try to be her caretaker at any point in time, maybe if you had a healthy relationship but you know you don't.  I hope her living with her sister is a good stop-gap for now and maybe she will figure out her next step... and if not, its not your job to do so even though I bet you feel like it is.  You are not her parent, you are not responsible for her.  Sorry if I am being too blunt :(

Well, I don't think you sound heartless really.  I understand the POV you're coming from...

It's very hard for me to properly explain or express myself with respect to this whole scenario sometimes so I will just leave it at this:

Since coming into the faith (trying to grow as a Christian), I have been trying to learn where/how to set boundaries.  This is healthy so as to not allow myself to sacrifice 'to my own detriment'. 

However, the flip side is I've also been asking myself more and more throughout this situation, "What would Jesus do?"  "What would Jesus want me to do?"  "Would Jesus 'approve' of me taking this or that stance with respect to this situation?"

^Tough questions I don't have the answer to yet honestly.  If anyone wants to give their take on it from a biblical perspective though I am happy to continue to hear any/all opinions.

For example, the below comes to mind:
But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.  - 1 Timothy 5:8

https://connectusfund.org/1-timothy-5-8-meaning-of-anyone-who-does-not-provide-for-their-relatives

What is tricky here (I will say in my situation) is understanding where 'real need' should actually be given vs. leaving a person to support themselves because they are truly capable.  The mental illness factor in all of this is why it gets to be difficult for me to determine how/in what way/s to support (versus am I enabling bad behavior/s).  I will say that at this point I am looking for steps to be taken to get mental health support before I make any additional decisions/take any future steps.

[iluvzbeach]

@EconDiva, so glad you popped in and took the time to provide an update. I’m sorry the situation continues to be difficult, but I am not at all surprised.

Unfortunately, I am probably not the best person to speak to 1 Timothy 5:8 but my take on it is that it’s intended to speak about those truly in need (i.e. a young child, a person who is sick or incapable, an elderly person who can no longer care for themself, etc.), not someone who WON’T care for themself. While there is no doubt your mother is suffering from mental illness, she refuses to relinquish control and allow you to help her get the help she needs to improve her situation. I have been told repeatedly, as I’ve navigated my own situation, that my family member’s burdens are not my load to bear. I know that this too comes from the Bible.

What came to mind for me as I read your comment about being depressed is that as long as you continue to try to bear your mother’s load, you will continue to be dragged down with anxiety and depression. Part of this is because it’s very sad to watch her make terrible decisions and part of it is because you truly have no control over her actions, or inaction. It is a very tough situation to be in and my heart goes out to you.

Honestly, I don’t think your mother is likely to ever really improve unless or until she decides to seek the help she needs. I say this from my own experience and from what I’ve learned over the years.

What I have finally begun to figure out for myself is that I have so many positive things in my life, such as friends, other loved ones, my career, my home, my dog, etc. and that focusing on those happier things is so much better for my own mental health & well-being, so that’s what I’m going to do. I refuse to continue to let what makes me miserable take up my time & attention.

You are a good daughter. I continue to wish you the best.

[EconDiva]

@EconDiva
Unfortunately, I am probably not the best person to speak to 1 Timothy 5:8 but my take on it is that it’s intended to speak about those truly in need (i.e. a young child, a person who is sick or incapable, an elderly person who can no longer care for themself, etc.), not someone who WON’T care for themself. While there is no doubt your mother is suffering from mental illness, she refuses to relinquish control and allow you to help her get the help she needs to improve her situation. I have been told repeatedly, as I’ve navigated my own situation, that my family member’s burdens are not my load to bear. I know that this too comes from the Bible.

^Therein lies the issue; how do I know it's not her mental illness that keeps her from recognizing that there is even an issue that needs to be fixed/improved?

@
What came to mind for me as I read your comment about being depressed is that as long as you continue to try to bear your mother’s load, you will continue to be dragged down with anxiety and depression. Part of this is because it’s very sad to watch her make terrible decisions and part of it is because you truly have no control over her actions, or inaction. It is a very tough situation to be in and my heart goes out to you.

Honestly, I don’t think your mother is likely to ever really improve unless or until she decides to seek the help she needs. I say this from my own experience and from what I’ve learned over the years.

What I have finally begun to figure out for myself is that I have so many positive things in my life, such as friends, other loved ones, my career, my home, my dog, etc. and that focusing on those happier things is so much better for my own mental health & well-being, so that’s what I’m going to do. I refuse to continue to let what makes me miserable take up my time & attention.

This is all so very true.  And you've reminded me that I really need to get to focusing on the good things in my own life and try to separate myself and my 'mood' from this particular situation in the healthiest way/s possible.

quote author=iluvzbeach link=topic=125917.msg2976040#msg2976040 date=1644522293]
@

You are a good daughter. I continue to wish you the best.
[/quote]

^I really appreciate your kind words.

[SunnyDays]

I'll preface this by saying that I am not religious.  At all.  However, my opinion about asking "What would Jesus do?" is this:  It's irrelevant.  Jesus was God himself, no?  Well, okay the Son, but basically God.  So He has resources that ordinary mortals don't.  The more relevant question, to me, is "What would Jesus say that I should do?"  Knowing what is in my heart and mind and what I have available to give, what would He say I should give?  How much would He want what I give to cost me?  Do with this whatever you wish, but that is my take on it.

Apart from that, I do not believe you are at all obligated to sacrifice your own mental, physical, psychological or financial wellbeing for anyone else.  If you truly WANT to do that, because you care that much for the person, then you can, but to do it out of guilt, because you don't want to have to deal with the negative emotions or beliefs that would result (I'm a bad daughter, I can't enjoy my life knowing the condition she is in etc) is selfish, because you are only helping her to make yourself feel better, not to actually improve her life.  And in spite of that, you WON'T feel better, because how could you, by making your own life worse?

You were not responsible for creating any of this mess and you are not responsible for fixing it.  Even if she has a mental disorder (of course she does).  If she knows on some level this is not normal behaviour, she had many years in which to get help for herself.  If she is so impaired that she doesn't know her behaviour is not normal, how exactly are you going to fix this?  Are you a psychiatrist?  Helping her psychologically is above  your paygrade.  If she had cancer, would you try to treat her yourself?  No, you would try to take her to a doctor, and if she refused to go, there's nothing you could do about it.  This is no different.

There's nothing wrong with making yourself your priority here.  In fact, you need to, because not doing so will help neither yourself nor her.  If you need counselling to help you get through the emotions and beliefs that will get you to this point, then by all means get it.  I would suggest that you go to a non-religious counsellor first, to get their viewpoint on it.  Follow up with a Christian counsellor afterwards.  Then you will have have two perspectives from which to make a plan.

Best wishes.  I hope you can find some peace for yourself in a difficult situation.

[SunnyDays]

One other comment.  Your mother is continuing to not take responsibility for her actions.  She falls and calls you, saying she can't get up when she can.  (Did she hope you would come and take her back to your place again?)  She does not do any work in the house while she still had time.  Even when she has only hours left, she sits in her room and does nothing.  Then expects the new owners to let her continue to "work" on cleaning up after the agreed on deadline.  Also, did she ever take you up on the counselling sessions you agree to attend with her?  Seems to me that it came to nothing. 

She needs to make at least some small effort to show that she recognizes her part in her problems and take some step to address it.  Even to ask you to make another counselling appointment for her.  (Although she's quite capable of making phone calls apparently.)  Unless and until that happens, nothing you try to do for her will help.  Your mental health is already suffering.  Take care of yourself first and foremost.

[Holocene]

Sounds like it was a tough trip that went as well as could be expected.  I'm glad the real estate agent is being so kind and trying to save any pictures you missed.  It's good that you understand that your mom could not have finished this even with more time.  I think setting a deadline and getting her moved out was the right thing to do.

It also sounds like you're (unsurprisingly) letting this affect your own health and well-being.  I completely understand this.  I think I'd feel pretty depressed dealing with this kind of situation as well.  Especially since it's been going on for years.  That really does have to be exhausting.  I would really try to avoid taking any larger role in your mother's life, such as buying a house and living with/near her, even in a duplex type of situation.  I think she will become more dependent on you and start to drain more of your time and energy.  This could go on for years.  Decades maybe.  This is not sustainable for your own physical and mental health.

Your mom clearly needs some help for her mental health issues.  You have been trying unsuccessfully to get her the help she needs, but you can't do it on your own.  SHE needs to want this.  It seems like you're in this place where she's just functional enough to refuse to get help, but not really functional enough to completely live on her own without support from you.  You have to realize how unfair this is to you.  In my opinion, if she's not willing to get help for her mental health issues and is not in bad enough shape to be forced into it (involuntary admission), then there's really nothing you can do for her.  I think any obligation you feel for her should end here.  Because any support you give her will not really help if the underlying issues are not being addressed.  You'll just be stuck in an endless loop trying to support her at detriment to yourself.

I'm not religious.  I was raised Catholic and spent a lot of time struggling and feeling guilty about not wanting to go to church and not believing in this religion anymore.  I'm still a little bitter about it, so probably not the best person to give you any kind of faith based advice.  But for me, I believe that if there really is any kind of deity or deities out there, I think they'd just want us to be decent and caring people.  You're clearly a decent person.  You're obviously trying to do right by your mother and being an absolutely wonderful and caring daughter.  In my opinion, you've met any biblical obligations you have to care for your relatives.  I'd keep pushing her to get mental health help.  But until she takes that step, focus on yourself and your own well-being.  I can't imagine any god would want you to be anxious, depressed, exhausted, etc. for the rest of your life due to dealing with your mom constantly.

[iris lily]

Don’t take on any responsibility for your mother while you have 0 authority to make decisions for her. That is a recipe for disaster.  Your feelings of panic and distress at the thought of your future aligning closer with hers are well founded.

The Jesus I respect would not give a flying fig about the truckloads of sentimental objects you think your mother needs to continue  life. You can honor her need for maintaining memories with a shoebox full of photos representative of the total collections. No where does the bible say ALL sentimentally important items must be preserved.

So now you have boxes full of stuff you need to get under the control of your mother. See how hard you are working for this crap?And see how hard she ISN’T working? I say keep the photos that are important to you because you will end up with this massive collection of her crap anyway. Pitch the rest. But for the love of God don’t waste too much of your time dealing with this last collection.

Sorry, but I am a bear about hanging on to useless crap as a substitute for really living life.

Edited to add: I guess the real,estate agent is taking care of the excess boxes of photos at the moment. They will reappear in
Econ Diva’s life tho, no doubt.
Econ

[EconDiva]

Don’t take on any responsibility for your mother while you have 0 authority to make decisions for her. That is a recipe for disaster.  Your feelings of panic and distress at the thought of your future aligning closer with hers are well founded.

The Jesus I respect would not give a flying fig about the truckloads of sentimental objects you think your mother needs to continue  life. You can honor her need for maintaining memories with a shoebox full of photos representative of the total collections. No where does the bible say ALL sentimentally important items must be preserved.

So now you have boxes full of stuff you need to get under the control of your mother. See how hard you are working for this crap?And see how hard she ISN’T working? I say keep the photos that are important to you because you will end up with this massive collection of her crap anyway. Pitch the rest. But for the love of God don’t waste too much of your time dealing with this last collection.

Sorry, but I am a bear about hanging on to useless crap as a substitute for really living life.

Edited to add: I guess the real,estate agent is taking care of the excess boxes of photos at the moment. They will reappear in
Econ Diva’s life tho, no doubt.
Econ

I don't like hanging on to useless crap either.

She met with the agent who gave her the left over photos.  I've told her I'm not going to pay for the storage unit she's got all of this stuff in now indefinitely (I have not been to it but I'm sure it's packed), so she is 'supposed' to be cleaning that out now and is spending most of her days there.  You're right in that I'm probably just going to have to go back and get out what I deem valuable and let that be it.

She said she's worried I'm just going to 'let the storage unit go' by not paying and then the last of the 'only stuff she has left now' will be gone.  I couldn't say that that wouldn't happen.

[EconDiva]

You were not responsible for creating any of this mess and you are not responsible for fixing it.  Even if she has a mental disorder (of course she does).  If she knows on some level this is not normal behaviour, she had many years in which to get help for herself.  If she is so impaired that she doesn't know her behaviour is not normal, how exactly are you going to fix this?  Are you a psychiatrist?  Helping her psychologically is above  your paygrade.  If she had cancer, would you try to treat her yourself?  No, you would try to take her to a doctor, and if she refused to go, there's nothing you could do about it.  This is no different.

There's nothing wrong with making yourself your priority here.  In fact, you need to, because not doing so will help neither yourself nor her.  If you need counselling to help you get through the emotions and beliefs that will get you to this point, then by all means get it.  I would suggest that you go to a non-religious counsellor first, to get their viewpoint on it.  Follow up with a Christian counsellor afterwards.  Then you will have have two perspectives from which to make a plan.

Best wishes.  I hope you can find some peace for yourself in a difficult situation.

I can't fix the situation.  I can't 'fix' her..I can't make her do anything.  Only thing I can do is help in whatever way/s I feel appropriate to do so.  I've had mostly secular therapists until recently.  My current therapist is Christian and I do like her thus far actually.

[EconDiva]

One other comment.  Your mother is continuing to not take responsibility for her actions.  She falls and calls you, saying she can't get up when she can.  (Did she hope you would come and take her back to your place again?)  She does not do any work in the house while she still had time.  Even when she has only hours left, she sits in her room and does nothing.  Then expects the new owners to let her continue to "work" on cleaning up after the agreed on deadline.  Also, did she ever take you up on the counselling sessions you agree to attend with her?  Seems to me that it came to nothing. 

She needs to make at least some small effort to show that she recognizes her part in her problems and take some step to address it.  Even to ask you to make another counselling appointment for her.  (Although she's quite capable of making phone calls apparently.)  Unless and until that happens, nothing you try to do for her will help.  Your mental health is already suffering.  Take care of yourself first and foremost.

RE: your first paragraph, I did mention to her about the whole 'not doing the work' I asked her to (basically with respect to just prioritizing getting the photos and valuables out over the past whole month she had to do it).  She cried and said I need to understand that she does not care about her life so none of the photos or anything else matters anymore.

I live in a different state from her so I can't go with her to therapy..not right now.  She had her intake appointment yesterday in person and claims she has a follow up visit but I will circle back with her on that.

[SunnyDays]

If none of the stuff matters anymore, why is she so worried that you won't pay for the storage unit and she will have nothing left?  Sounds to me like she just says whatever she thinks will excuse her in the moment (manipulation).

At least she's taking the first step in getting a therapy appointment, so that's something.  Hopefully she continues long enough for it to do some good.

[EconDiva]

^Most of our conversations don't make sense so...

((shrugs))

[NUF]

Hi EconDiva,

Have you looked into any ACOA (adult children of alcoholics) materials? There's a robust community with many resources that I think you might find germane.

I'm not a Christian, but I always thought of the Christian God as having really strong boundaries. On my understanding, he offers help/salvation always but respects people's free will to choose otherwise. He allows people to make their own choices and doesn't interfere with the choice making or the consequences. Instead he offers love and support during the whole experience, no matter how painful but does not fix or change the material situation. People are free to make choices that end poorly but are not alone in it.

[iris lily]

Hi EconDiva,

Have you looked into any ACOA (adult children of alcoholics) materials? There's a robust community with many resources that I think you might find germane.

I'm not a Christian, but I always thought of the Christian God as having really strong boundaries. On my understanding, he offers help/salvation always but respects people's free will to choose otherwise. He allows people to make their own choices and doesn't interfere with the choice making or the consequences. Instead he offers love and support during the whole experience, no matter how painful but does not fix or change the material situation. People are free to make choices that end poorly but are not alone in it.

That is such a valuable summary, nice.

[kei te pai]

I have no suggestions or advice, just want to send you a long distance internet hug. You are such a great daughter, and a thoughtful caring person.
Who have you got in your life to care for you?

[cchrissyy]

Econdiva, again i'm sorry this is a stressful and unfixable situation and all you should do is help from a safe distance where your own life isn't pulled underwater.  i think your dreams of being dragged down are absolutely realistic and it's scary because it's true. IMO love, honor, justice, family, do not require you joining your mom in her rough times.  I'm sure if she was in her right mind she would want you to have pure happiness, safety, security, peace, and not sacrifice too much on her account.

That said, my actual comment is about the storage unit. I'm sure you know you mom will never organize the unit, saving items and discarding others, and bringing your rental to its proper end, the same way she did not do it for her house. Therefore, those items will be in storage forever or until you stop paying. I don't think this is the most urgent thing for you to address. but ask yourself, how much is it costing to leave it the way it is, and how long do you want to bear the cost?  if it's trivial then maybe you leave it for the rest of her life. but if it is a noticeable cost to you then my advice is to pick a future date and stick to it. like, you announce "i will pay for 6 months" or "i will pay until new years". and at the end probably you probably go rescue the few things you personally care about and realistically the rest is handled by the storage people. but IMO you are doing more than your duty if you pay for a few months and you give some verbal warnings that you hope she goes for what she wants before the due date.  If you don't do this, i honestly think the expense will drag on forever and you will end up clearing it yourself after she has passed away and the items have all deteriorated beyond saving.

[EconDiva]

I have no suggestions or advice, just want to send you a long distance internet hug. You are such a great daughter, and a thoughtful caring person.
You have you got in your life to care for you?

At this point I would say primarily God.

[EconDiva]

Econdiva, again i'm sorry this is a stressful and unfixable situation and all you should do is help from a safe distance where your own life isn't pulled underwater.  i think your dreams of being dragged down are absolutely realistic and it's scary because it's true. IMO love, honor, justice, family, do not require you joining your mom in her rough times.  I'm sure if she was in her right mind she would want you to have pure happiness, safety, security, peace, and not sacrifice too much on her account.

That said, my actual comment is about the storage unit. I'm sure you know you mom will never organize the unit, saving items and discarding others, and bringing your rental to its proper end, the same way she did not do it for her house. Therefore, those items will be in storage forever or until you stop paying. I don't think this is the most urgent thing for you to address. but ask yourself, how much is it costing to leave it the way it is, and how long do you want to bear the cost?  if it's trivial then maybe you leave it for the rest of her life. but if it is a noticeable cost to you then my advice is to pick a future date and stick to it. like, you announce "i will pay for 6 months" or "i will pay until new years". and at the end probably you probably go rescue the few things you personally care about and realistically the rest is handled by the storage people. but IMO you are doing more than your duty if you pay for a few months and you give some verbal warnings that you hope she goes for what she wants before the due date.  If you don't do this, i honestly think the expense will drag on forever and you will end up clearing it yourself after she has passed away and the items have all deteriorated beyond saving.

Thank you for your kind comments.

I have told her that I will be setting a date but I haven't given it much thought yet.  For now I'm thinking through the end of the year..I don't know.  It's currently $120 a month.  It could be $2 a month and it would still irk me because I am SO against paying for stuff to just sit somewhere. 

[EconDiva]

Hi EconDiva,

Have you looked into any ACOA (adult children of alcoholics) materials? There's a robust community with many resources that I think you might find germane.

I'm not a Christian, but I always thought of the Christian God as having really strong boundaries. On my understanding, he offers help/salvation always but respects people's free will to choose otherwise. He allows people to make their own choices and doesn't interfere with the choice making or the consequences. Instead he offers love and support during the whole experience, no matter how painful but does not fix or change the material situation. People are free to make choices that end poorly but are not alone in it.

I have not heard of ACOA before; thank you for recommending.

I agree with mostly everything you stated and trust that God is with me.  At the same time I trust that God is in control of all things as well so He has the ability to change any situation as well.  I understand that He is always with the believer and never leaves or forsakes us so that is comforting to know.

[iluvzbeach]

Oh, the storage unit thing…I dealt with that as well with my dad. He paid for two large storage units to the tune of $155 per month for nearly nine years. He was always going to go through them and sell stuff, cull it down to one unit, eventually no units, etc. etc. etc. In the last 2-3 years of his life, he decided that renting a storage building to put on his property for another $150/month was what he needed so that he could gradually bring things from the other storage units to this building and sort through the items while he decided what to do with them. He was all gung ho about getting the building (despite attempts to talk him out of it) and yet once it arrived he never placed a thing in it. It sat empty until he died. I arranged for the company that owned the building to pick it up and his storage units were long overdue in payment, so those were relinquished to the storage company. A complete and total waste of money over the years, not to mention all the stress and mental energy that went in to thinking about them.

Some very good advice & great comments over the past several days. This is such a tough situation to be in and I truly hope you’ll be able to not let your mother’s issues rule your life during the time she has left.

[EconDiva]

Got a text today stating she's got her first therapy appointment (tomorrow of course) and can I pay for the visit/s.

$150 a pop.

I will have to explain that she needs to let them know she has no money or insurance so what can they do (sliding scale, etc.).

[Holocene]

Oof.  And here I was, so excited to see she had a therapy appointment!  Does she not have health insurance at all?  Any chance she can get on a low cost ACA plan or Medicaid?  I think her income would be low enough for it to basically be free.  But if her state hasn't expanded Medicaid and she's under the ACA income limit, that could be the problem.  In any case, I hope she can figure something out and this doesn't turn her off from therapy.

[six-car-habit]

  What happened to the State /County sponsored therapy / disability / elderly care avenue. Did they refer -or- send her to the $150 per appointment therapist ?

  Maybe you can make a deal to pay cash $$ money to the therapist office, leaving out billing and/ or insurance re-imbursement issues for them, and get 2 sessions per month for $150/ month.  Put the storage unit $$ toward this instead.  Just say you are willing to contribute towards the therapist but Not the storage unit.

  You said you would be unhappy paying even $2 for the storage unit. 
 Example - I don't want to eat brussel sprouts, because i don't like the texture and the smell as they are cooking, but my spouse does the majority of the cooking, and the grocery shopping, with money i am contributing towards the grocery bill.  Do i just continue eating the [ to me] repulsive vegetable, or do i eventually tell my spouse to stop spending my $$ portion of grocery funds on them, and refuse to eat them ??.  Maybe she'll stop buying and cooking something i am subsidiizing -- on her own initiative if i stay quiet and passive-- but unlikely.....

[cchrissyy]

How is it going?

FWIW, i think any of these are completely OK to say

- i can't pay for your therapy appointments
- i can cover the copays if the person takes insurance but i can't pay full price
- i will pay for __x__ visits, that's it

I don't remember your own income and expenses in great detail but unless you are just made of money, i think your priority needs to be your own living expenses, investments, and therapy, before doing someone else's.

[EconDiva]

There was a total miscommunication on her part.

Soooooo….

She meant to say she has an appointment for therapy, but needed the $150 for the storage unit.

And that the storage unit amount isn’t $150 but $120.

Yay for communicating via text. Glad this was all cleared up when I spoke to her after getting off work.

So she made and went to her first appointment. She said her therapist is a kind woman who started her on a routine to walk several times a week. My mom actually came to visit yesterday for this week (it’s spring break so my aunt dropped her here while my aunt visits her kids in the area).  My mom asked to take a walk yesterday so she could stay ‘on routine’ so we went walking for an hour. Good to see as she never really does anything physically.

She has been unusually quiet this week and upon arriving here.  Maybe just emotionally exhausted and/or trying to ‘keep the peace’ (?). She seems to really be looking forward to her therapist visits now and the day she went stayed she ‘feels better already’ so I will take that as a positive sign. 

[iluvzbeach]

Great update. Sounds encouraging. I know you’ll certainly welcome any positive steps in the right direction. Have a good week with her and pray your aunt picks her up before heading home. 😁