Econdiva 2022 update (to "Buying a Parent a Home" thread)

[EconDiva]

This an update to the below:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/case-studies/case-study-buying-a-parent-a-home/

First off let me say Happy New Year to everyone and that I hope everyone is remaining safe during these times.  I just returned to the US after an amazing 3 week trip to Lisbon and am really hoping I can spend some more time this year working abroad a few times for a month or two at a time.

Anywho, I digress...

Yesterday I received a call from a SC phone number.  When I answered the person introduced themself to me as a realtor and that they had me on speaker with the buyer who had (unbeknownst to me) purchased my mom's house.  They were at the house (outside), had obtained my number from my mom, and stated that the home was foreclosed and because my mom mentioned to them I'd probably be moving back to SC for us to live together, that they wanted to know what exactly is the plan for getting her out and how soon I would be coming there to help her as they will need to start eviction processes.

I told them that I am aware of her situation and that I had to put them on hold for a minute while I gathered my thoughts.  Upon returning to the call, the realtor stated that they primarily wanted my mom's cooperation for the inspector and owner to enter the home in a few days, and they were having this conversation with me outside and away from my mom's presence because it did not seem that my mother was understanding any of the things they were telling or asking of her. 

I stated that I understand this is now an urgent situation in terms of her getting out and they stated they would work with her in terms of timing for her leaving.  I spoke with the realtor a second time later in the day and she asked me again when I would be coming to help her because although the realtor had not been in the home, they can see that this is a hoarding situation and because the realtor 'went through the same thing with her grandmother and nothing was resolved until she stepped in to help', that she 'knows my mother isn't going to be able to get the house cleaned out without me'.

Obviously I knew this day was coming and this probably isn't going to make much sense but the only thing I want to do right now is sleep for some reason.  Maybe because the more I think about this, I just wear my brain out going around and around about what to do.  Honestly I don't know what to do.  Although I already had a plan in place I am starting to realize how much I don't want to proceed with any of the options I had previously considered. 

[Dicey]

First of all, that realtor has a hell of a lot of nerve assigning this problem to you! This is your mother, but it is NOT your problem. In your shoes, I think I'd do this. Call a large Real Estate firm in the area and ask for the person (people) who handle probate and-or foreclosure cases. I know your mom is alive, but they're going to be the ones with the most likely relevant experience. I strongly suspect once a home is foreclosed upon, it's the lender's problem to deal with, not yours. It may also fall to the buyer, because these houses are typically sold "as-is", which means the buyer knows exactly what they're getting into. I repeat, NOT your problem.

If what is needed is assistance with removal of your mother from the property, I expect you may need to step up, but you have no legal responsibility for the house and contents. Of course, I'm assuming you are not on title.

I completely understand the desire to escape this problem by sleeping. You have my complete sympathy.

[EconDiva]

First of all, that realtor has a hell of a lot of nerve assigning this problem to you! This is your mother, but it is NOT your problem. In your shoes, I think I'd do this. Call a large Real Estate firm in the area and ask for the person (people) who handle probate and-or foreclosure cases. I know your mom is alive, but they're going to be the ones with the most likely relevant experience. I strongly suspect once a home is foreclosed upon, it's the lender's problem to deal with, not yours. It may also fall to the buyer, because these houses are typically sold "as-is", which means the buyer knows exactly what they're getting into. I repeat, NOT your problem.

If what is needed is assistance with removal of your mother from the property, I expect you may need to step up, but you have no legal responsibility for the house and contents. Of course, I'm assuming you are not on title.

I completely understand the desire to escape this problem by sleeping. You have my complete sympathy.

I do have a friend (and a family member) in the industry and they've advised I tell my mom to just get her 'most prized stuff' out and leave the rest for the buyer to deal with.

However...that was already the plan in the back of my mind because there's no way I can deal with what's in that house.

So...I'd already told my mom to start doing this (taking out the important stuff) - I told her a few months ago I know what happened with the house.  It was an interesting conversation because she didn't seem to understand the house was no longer hers.

Anyways, she agreed to start doing this as I made it clear she doesn't own the home and that at 'some' point someone's going to 'come knocking' so she'd better take advantage of the time now and get that stuff out she wants - but I know she hadn't made much progress at all. 

Now that the police and realtor and buyer have showed up, she says she's 'making trips back and forth to the dumpster' from now until Tuesday (that is the day the inspector is coming) to get everything out.  I advised her to not do that and to only take out what she needs and let them deal with the rest, however, what I think is happening is that she wants to now FINALLY attempt to go through every single thing in the house and it seems she doesn't want others to have to be the ones that do it.  I don't know what the rationale is for this.  Could be she wants to be sure nothing she wants gets tossed...could be that she doesn't want anyone coming in to see the mess (because I've been the only one to see it)...could be a combination of both. 

I spent too much time telling her not to go through the junk and salvage the priority stuff so I gave up on that and finally just said 'have at it then' (because at this point I know I won't be there dealing with any of the moving of stuff).

[iluvzbeach]

I followed your previous thread and you have my sympathy for the situation you now find yourself in. I can relate on so many levels as I’ve dealt with something very similar over the past few years. One part of my situation has resolved, through the death of my parent, but the other part remains as I’m now caring for step-parent who has no other family and no money/assets aside from social security. If I could to do it all over again, I would do things completely differently and not get involved. I know, easier said than done.

Ultimately, this is not your problem and I hope you can find a way to let others handle it. Your mom has made her choices and those choices have consequences. Those consequences should be hers to own, not yours.

Best wishes in dealing with this very difficult situation…

[EconDiva]

I followed your previous thread and you have my sympathy for the situation you now find yourself in. I can relate on so many levels as I’ve dealt with something very similar over the past few years. One part of my situation has resolved, through the death of my parent, but the other part remains as I’m now caring for step-parent who has no other family and no money/assets aside from social security. If I could to do it all over again, I would do things completely differently and not get involved. I know, easier said than done.

Ultimately, this is not your problem and I hope you can find a way to let others handle it. Your mom has made her choices and those choices have consequences. Those consequences should be hers to own, not yours.

Best wishes in dealing with this very difficult situation…

When you said you would not get involved if you had to do it all over again, what are you saying would be the ideal alternative situation then?

I am very sorry to hear about the death of your parent.

[iluvzbeach]

Thank you for your condolences; it was a brutal situation.

What I learned from the process (and am still processing as it’s only been six months) is that my stepping in was only delaying the inevitable. Ultimately, there was nothing I could do that would save the situation or get my parent to do differently. They needed to want it for themselves. I could have pushed more for them to get the mental health help they needed, but they were very resistant to that. Trying to get a conservatorship was a consideration, but I don’t think it would have been possible and, frankly, would have made our relationship even more difficult. Plus, I was terrified at the potential liability of being legally responsible for my parent.

It may sound cold hearted but, in hindsight if I were to deal with this again, I would probably just not get involved. That said, my parent wasn’t a particularly good parent and never did much in terms of caring for or providing for me when I was a child. I’m sure that greatly impacts my feelings on the matter and your situation may be completely different. I don’t recall all the details of your relationship with your mother and haven’t refreshed myself on the previous thread.

My step-parent left the situation (but lives in housing we provide) before my parent died, so I took responsibility for clearing my parent’s house following their death. We did exactly as Dicey suggested above and took out only the things we wanted. We did clear about 30 large bags of garbage, primarily so we could move around the place & discard food that would spoil once utilities were turned off. We had an auction company come take what they would; they then sold stuff & we split the proceeds 50/50. The rest we left for the owner to take care of. That is not my normal M.O. but my DH strongly felt it wasn’t our responsibility to totally clear the place and now that some time has passed, I 100% agree it was the right decision.

I know you’ve not got an easy time ahead of you and I’m so sorry you are having to deal with this. My experience has been the most difficult thing I’ve dealt with in life thus far and I suspect it may be for you as well. Try to remember that this is temporary and that things will get better.

[EconDiva]

Thank you for your condolences; it was a brutal situation.

What I learned from the process (and am still processing as it’s only been six months) is that my stepping in was only delaying the inevitable. Ultimately, there was nothing I could do that would save the situation or get my parent to do differently. They needed to want it for themselves. I could have pushed more for them to get the mental health help they needed, but they were very resistant to that. Trying to get a conservatorship was a consideration, but I don’t think it would have been possible and, frankly, would have made our relationship even more difficult. Plus, I was terrified at the potential liability of being legally responsible for my parent.

It may sound cold hearted but, in hindsight if I were to deal with this again, I would probably just not get involved. That said, my parent wasn’t a particularly good parent and never did much in terms of caring for or providing for me when I was a child. I’m sure that greatly impacts my feelings on the matter and your situation may be completely different. I don’t recall all the details of your relationship with your mother and haven’t refreshed myself on the previous thread.

My step-parent left the situation (but lives in housing we provide) before my parent died, so I took responsibility for clearing my parent’s house following their death. We did exactly as Dicey suggested above and took out only the things we wanted. We did clear about 30 large bags of garbage, primarily so we could move around the place & discard food that would spoil once utilities were turned off. We had an auction company come take what they would; they then sold stuff & we split the proceeds 50/50. The rest we left for the owner to take care of. That is not my normal M.O. but my DH strongly felt it wasn’t our responsibility to totally clear the place and now that some time has passed, I 100% agree it was the right decision.

I know you’ve not got an easy time ahead of you and I’m so sorry you are having to deal with this. My experience has been the most difficult thing I’ve dealt with in life thus far and I suspect it may be for you as well. Try to remember that this is temporary and that things will get better.

The relationship with my mom is probably what outsiders would describe as dysfunctional (I think).  We have our ups and downs like any mother-daughter relationship.  She hasn't been able to emotionally support me or financially support me so she resents me a bit because she feels like I talk to her like "I'm the parent"; there is truth to this as it does happen.  Her mental/emotional issues take a toll on our relationship; I have my issues as well but I do sincerely/sadly believe that the vast majority of the issues are on her end.

The biggest struggle in this whole scenario has primarily centered around what I will decide to do/in what way(s) will I help or not help.  Through this and other threads, through friends and family and through other online boards I have solicited a ton of feedback and advice which has been very helpful.  After being "born again" just a few years ago; that is playing a role in my decision making.  I find it very hard to discern what is 'honoring my parent' vs what is enabling.  I got a new Christian-based therapist last year which I 'think' is helping as we talk a lot about scripture; so at the end of the day I find myself thinking about this scenario and just asking myself "What would Jesus do?" if he was in this situation (even that I am finding hard to figure out).  This very question is at the core of what I am trying to understand in order to support me in making the right decision/s. 

I did talk to my mom a few minutes ago and gave her a heads up that she needs to be out by the end of this month (she wanted to extend it into the first of February).  I'm going to speak to the realtor again and tell them they can file the eviction process whenever they so please to do (because the reality is they have a right to, and delaying it is likely just going to delay my mother's actions anyway).  It pains me to hear her say she doesn't want to be homeless but I told her I don't have space for her right now as I live in a studio and I'm working on a plan but I cannot put her in an Airbnb either (which she asked about) when she has a sister she can temporarily live with 15 minutes away or an Aunt a few states away both of which have 4-5 bedroom houses by themselves.  I just need more time to think about all of this and I'm on the verge of just letting my mom figure out where she's going to go because in doing that it might just push her into reality that she needs to get some type of income (at the least) and some serious behavioral support (at the most) but at the end of the day going this route will likely more clearly show her the consequences of her actions and that I'm not just going to jump up, walk out on my lease and run there and rent a property for both of us in order to 'save the day' when none of this had to happen like this.

[iluvzbeach]

EconDiva, while I am not religious per se, I have received counsel from several people who are and I do believe there are things I should & shouldn’t do from a religious perspective. I believe in right & wrong and I believe we should help others and that, in part, is what made things so difficult for me in terms of figuring out what I should do for my parent.

A book that helped me tremendously is Boundaries by Dr. Henry Cloud. It is faith-based and yet still makes pretty clear that boundaries are important. I receive an email from Dr. Cloud each day & I always find it helpful. His topics always seem to be spot-on with what I’m dealing with.

I don’t believe your faith in any way obligates you to rescue someone who won’t take personal responsibility for themselves. There is a huge difference between being able but unwilling (your mom) and not being able. Even for those who are unable, there are government resources that can provide assistance. I say all this and yet fully recognize that I haven’t followed my own advice (taking care of step-parent when it’s probably not the best decision.)

It sounds like you’re on the right track with your mother. The “right” decision is probably the toughest decision you will ever have to make.

[SunnyDays]

Sorry to hear that it's all hitting the fan right now, but at least you no longer have to worry about when it will.

Your mother is a competent adult, legally, so you don't have any real obligations in this situation.  If ethically, you feel the need to do something, giving her the next steps seems appropriate.  Tell her to call her sister and aunt to see if she can stay with them.  If not, tell her to call a shelter to see if they have space.  I would be careful about saying you're working on a plan, because that will just make her reliant on you to fix things and take no actions of her own.  If she was able to get herself into this mess, she is able to get herself out.  Financially, if you want to help, just arrange for deposits into her bank account so she has some ability to find basic shelter for herself.  It will be hard to watch things play out however they will, but if she doesn't want you to be the parent, then don't.  Let her take responsibility for herself.  As they say, necessity is the mother of invention.

[EconDiva]

EconDiva, while I am not religious per se, I have received counsel from several people who are and I do believe there are things I should & shouldn’t do from a religious perspective. I believe in right & wrong and I believe we should help others and that, in part, is what made things so difficult for me in terms of figuring out what I should do for my parent.

A book that helped me tremendously is Boundaries by Dr. Henry Cloud. It is faith-based and yet still makes pretty clear that boundaries are important. I receive an email from Dr. Cloud each day & I always find it helpful. His topics always seem to be spot-on with what I’m dealing with.

I don’t believe your faith in any way obligates you to rescue someone who won’t take personal responsibility for themselves. There is a huge difference between being able but unwilling (your mom) and not being able. Even for those who are unable, there are government resources that can provide assistance. I say all this and yet fully recognize that I haven’t followed my own advice (taking care of step-parent when it’s probably not the best decision.)

It sounds like you’re on the right track with your mother. The “right” decision is probably the toughest decision you will ever have to make.

Actually the book you referenced (Boundaries) was recommended in the linked thread I believe; I do have it and it has been great.

It has been hard for me determining how much personal responsibility my mom 'is' able to take. 

My therapist leans strongly towards my mom being in a deteriorating mental and increasingly paranoid state (one in which she just cannot make decisions or take care of herself or think rationally), so she often tells me that it is irrational for me to expect someone in my mom's mental state to help herself in the ways I'm expecting her to help herself.  I agree with her however I still struggle with what help 'should' or 'will' end up looking like.  This week has been rough and telling her she can't stay with me (again) is hard but I've got to see 'some' kind of willingness to do 'something' small on her end before making any major decisions on how I will help at this point.  It's already majorly straining our relationship; I know she's under stress but the anger right now is real.

[EconDiva]

Sorry to hear that it's all hitting the fan right now, but at least you no longer have to worry about when it will.

Your mother is a competent adult, legally, so you don't have any real obligations in this situation.  If ethically, you feel the need to do something, giving her the next steps seems appropriate.  Tell her to call her sister and aunt to see if she can stay with them.  If not, tell her to call a shelter to see if they have space.  I would be careful about saying you're working on a plan, because that will just make her reliant on you to fix things and take no actions of her own.  If she was able to get herself into this mess, she is able to get herself out.  Financially, if you want to help, just arrange for deposits into her bank account so she has some ability to find basic shelter for herself.  It will be hard to watch things play out however they will, but if she doesn't want you to be the parent, then don't.  Let her take responsibility for herself.  As they say, necessity is the mother of invention.

You know...it has been sort of a relief knowing that things are now 'definitely' about to change.  My biggest concern is she appears to be heading for a 'break' mentally if you know what I mean and that hasn't happened in many years so I'm just trying to prepare for that mentally as well just in case.  I don't even know that I could visit her in the hospital right now with all of the Covid madness we've been in for quite some time.  Sigh.

Only thing I've been doing is telling her steps to take like you've said.  Get what can out of the house.  Call local programs for help.  Decide on where you're going to stay for now (not my place).  I think she's just in shock right now that it's all really finally happening and that there isn't a plan in place that is ideal for her.  She was going on a tangent today about how all of this is her fault and everything that happens to her is her own doing as she never listens to anyone else.  First time I've ever heard that.

I'm going to be down there this weekend to have a face to face conversation with her but I likely won't go to the house.

I've lost quite a bit of work time this week which is highly unfortunate (I took a new job a few months ago and reallllly need to be focused right now).  I'm trying to just prioritize working, sleeping and exercising right now in between all of the calls/conversations with people about this situation.  I really do wonder where this will all end up in another 6 months.

[Cassie]

It’s a lot of work to be someone’s guardian. I did it for a friend of mine because she had dementia and her husband was dying from cancer.  Your situation sounds very stressful.

[iluvzbeach]

EconDiva, just wanted to let you know you’ve been on this internet stranger’s mind and that I hope things are going well. Or at least as well as could be expected considering the circumstances.

I was thinking more about your situation with your mom and some of what I dealt with, with my own parent, and there’s one thing I want to clarify in terms of what I would or wouldn’t do for them. Although my parent wasn’t faced with losing their home, it was certainly on the horizon and they were also losing the ability to be independent. What I did offer, and would do again, was to help them track down a place to live. This didn’t mean living with me, nor did it mean I would be paying for it. It meant I’d help make phone calls to help track down appropriate housing for them and I even would have physically helped with the move itself (taking only those items that were truly needed.) This would have been within my established boundaries as the daughter, especially for a parent who was struggling on an emotional & mental health level. Ultimately, my parent declined the offer and told me to never bring it up again.

Offering to do some legwork so that your parent doesn’t end up homeless (or living with you) may be fully appropriate for your situation and boundaries, and also allow you to feel like you’re doing the right thing morally.

Best wishes in this most difficult of situations.

[SunnyDays]

If your mom is deteriorating mentally and emotionally, then that is the priority right now.  Maybe you can arrange for a psychiatric assessment ASAP, then you will know where to go from there.  If she should need inpatient treatment, then that will buy you some time re housing and a chance to get her current situation dealt with.  That might mean that you need to hire someone to put her necessary possessions in storage until she finds a home or that you need to go there to do it yourself. 

You could also look into Adult Protective Services where she lives and see if they can offer any help.

Even if she has to abandon all her stuff, although it doesn’t sound like things are quite that urgent/critical, getting her the mental health help she needs is the important thing, IMO.

[cchrissyy]

oh dang, thanks for the update, i'm sorry it's hitting the fan right now but i understand the relief that you can stop wondering when this day will come.

I agree the realtor has a LOT of nerve to drop this at your feet. I imagine they got the impression base don what your mom said, and based on how it sure would be easiest for them if you'd step in, but please don't interpret that call as any kind of moral obligation.  This is your mom's own life decisions, this is the natural and foreseeable consequences of her choices, and she has many people who can help besides yourself. like the sister and aunt you mentioned. like social services. like her church, or friends, or doctors.  I understand why you are tired and I think the best thing to do right now is read "Boundaries" again and take a nap or a run or whatever refreshes you. This is someone else's life, and it sucks they're having a problem but it is NOT your problem, no matter who they give your phone number to. I don't even agree you should go down in person.


edit to add - if you do not go down, another likely person to step in with money or hands-on assistance is this new buyer. think about it. they need the house vacated, and it is in their interest to put some $ at hiring movers and a truck and a garbage bin, and helping your mom get off the property.  if they didn't have this new hope of you stepping in, those are the steps they would start taking. they would arrange for the moving truck, for physical labor, and for dropping off your mom at her next place.  this is, unfortunately, a bit normal for foreclosure situations. they might even give her money for a couple months rent. i'm not saying you should ask for this. i'm saying, if you step back, this is the sort of assistance that will probably spring up in your place. and that's ok!

[EconDiva]

oh dang, thanks for the update, i'm sorry it's hitting the fan right now but i understand the relief that you can stop wondering when this day will come.

I agree the realtor has a LOT of nerve to drop this at your feet. I imagine they got the impression base don what your mom said, and based on how it sure would be easiest for them if you'd step in, but please don't interpret that call as any kind of moral obligation.  This is your mom's own life decisions, this is the natural and foreseeable consequences of her choices, and she has many people who can help besides yourself. like the sister and aunt you mentioned. like social services. like her church, or friends, or doctors.  I understand why you are tired and I think the best thing to do right now is read "Boundaries" again and take a nap or a run or whatever refreshes you. This is someone else's life, and it sucks they're having a problem but it is NOT your problem, no matter who they give your phone number to. I don't even agree you should go down in person.


edit to add - if you do not go down, another likely person to step in with money or hands-on assistance is this new buyer. think about it. they need the house vacated, and it is in their interest to put some $ at hiring movers and a truck and a garbage bin, and helping your mom get off the property.  if they didn't have this new hope of you stepping in, those are the steps they would start taking. they would arrange for the moving truck, for physical labor, and for dropping off your mom at her next place.  this is, unfortunately, a bit normal for foreclosure situations. they might even give her money for a couple months rent. i'm not saying you should ask for this. i'm saying, if you step back, this is the sort of assistance that will probably spring up in your place. and that's ok!

Thank you for the kind words.

I did end up going to SC (I'm here now) but not much will be accomplished as it's supposed to be bad weather tomorrow.  I looked at a home with an in-law suite as I'm still weighing the option of coming here as it's a bit difficult to support her from afar and I also believe that 'one day' I will eventually need to be closer to her...even if it's not permanently.  A duplex/triplex or in-law suite gives me the option to rent out a part that can cover hopefully most of the mortgage.  I could live there temporarily to get her situated if I end up going this route and can come/go and live there too as needed.  Was hoping to see a duplex here too but didn't work out today...maybe by the time I leave on Monday.

My cousin, who is like my sister, told my Aunt (mom's sis) about everything the day it happened and she's offered to take her in and my mom accepted.  I had a phenomenal falling out with this aunt a few months ago (had possibly been a longggg time coming as I've likely put up with behavior with her and let her overstep serious boundaries for far too long)...in short, whatever they decide to do will be between the two of them and that's fine.  One of the hardest things has been talking to my brother about all of this; he called me for the first time in like 6 years and the last discussion we had was more along the lines of informing me he won't be responding to my mom for the most part with any requests for any sort of help (financial or otherwise).

I had actually texted the realtor because she had followed up asking why I didn't come the previous weekend and when I'd be there.  I told her when I'd be here and also told her that my mother will take out what she can, my mother will be handling all of the removal of items she wants, that my mother doesn't want anyone else going through her stuff and that ultimately I expect there to be a lot of stuff left in the house when she leaves.  The realtor has not responded to any other messages from me since.

The realtor and buyer went to the house this week; the buyer is placing a bin on the property soon so my mom will be able to start placing the trash in that instead of making the multiple trips back and forth to the dumpster.

[EconDiva]

EconDiva, just wanted to let you know you’ve been on this internet stranger’s mind and that I hope things are going well. Or at least as well as could be expected considering the circumstances.

I was thinking more about your situation with your mom and some of what I dealt with, with my own parent, and there’s one thing I want to clarify in terms of what I would or wouldn’t do for them. Although my parent wasn’t faced with losing their home, it was certainly on the horizon and they were also losing the ability to be independent. What I did offer, and would do again, was to help them track down a place to live. This didn’t mean living with me, nor did it mean I would be paying for it. It meant I’d help make phone calls to help track down appropriate housing for them and I even would have physically helped with the move itself (taking only those items that were truly needed.) This would have been within my established boundaries as the daughter, especially for a parent who was struggling on an emotional & mental health level. Ultimately, my parent declined the offer and told me to never bring it up again.

Offering to do some legwork so that your parent doesn’t end up homeless (or living with you) may be fully appropriate for your situation and boundaries, and also allow you to feel like you’re doing the right thing morally.

Best wishes in this most difficult of situations.

Thank you so much for the well wishes.

Right now I'm just trying to focus on work, working out, rest and eating right.  This week has not gone well in any of those arenas so I really have to try harder going forward to not let things slip the way they have this week. 

May I ask why your parent declined the offer?

So far I have been doing along the lines of what you are stating - I have given my mom a list of things to do.  For instance, she mentioned an apartment complex with no/low income housing options and I told her to go there and get info about them.  She mentioned me going with her and I said no and reiterated that I am looking for her to make steps on her own right now and that what I see her do 'may' impact how I decide to help.  I touched on this somewhere upthread, but I'm trying to determine how much she 'can' do.  And what options are out there for her.  Even though I told her that both myself and my brother have discussed/agreed that she is not taking steps to help herself and that we should hold on any help until she does...and after telling her that she needs to look into programs to see if she can get her own place on her own...today she asked 'if we live together can we get a dog'...

...so I don't think she's really hearing me.  Then again, she doesn't 'hear' most of what I say.  It's been that way for a longgggg time.  Trust when I say that a couple of months living with her sister just might push her into doing something.  Then again, maybe not.  Who knows.  It's funny how nothing is working out for me to be able to move closer to her though.  I've lived in apartments for over 20 years, have done multiple lease takeovers due to moving in the past, and despite my place being underpriced and extremely well located, I have gotten no offers from anyone to take my place which is what would be needed right now for me to leave and live closer to her for a while (even if it ends up being temporarily). 

I do want to emphasize that my mother's mental state is not anything new...if she's deteriorating it's been for a very long time because the hoarding and other problems have been around for many many years now.  Maybe I didn't emphasize that in my other threads but that is primarily what was driving me to help - the understanding my mom well enough to know that I don't think she is really all that capable honestly.  My therapist says that based on what she has heard about my mother, that my frustrations with her and expectations that she can do certain things on her own is akin to me running a marathon with a friend and getting upset with them when they can't keep up with me despite them only having one leg.  Thus the situation is complicated since I am constantly trying to balance boundaries versus being realistic about the things she actually doesn't have the capacity to make decisions about and/or do herself.

Anyways, thanks again for the well wishes.

[EconDiva]

If your mom is deteriorating mentally and emotionally, then that is the priority right now.  Maybe you can arrange for a psychiatric assessment ASAP, then you will know where to go from there.  If she should need inpatient treatment, then that will buy you some time re housing and a chance to get her current situation dealt with.  That might mean that you need to hire someone to put her necessary possessions in storage until she finds a home or that you need to go there to do it yourself. 

You could also look into Adult Protective Services where she lives and see if they can offer any help.

Even if she has to abandon all her stuff, although it doesn’t sound like things are quite that urgent/critical, getting her the mental health help she needs is the important thing, IMO.

My mom has had unaddressed mental issues as long as I've known her.  'If' indeed the issues are on a decline (which is likely), they've been on the decline for many years.  She agreed to go in for an assessment.  I will have to keep pushing for this.  She does not believe in going to the doctor because her only experience with them has been under involuntary circumstances many years ago post trauma;  she told me years ago she vowed no one would ever make the decision for her to go to any doctor ever again so to my knowledge she's never been outside of a visit I pressured her into one time a few years ago.  I understand that going is likely to trigger the trauma for her that led her to the involuntary 'visits' she had many years ago and on top of that she clearly (based on conversations with my now-deceased grandmother) already had unaddressed issues before the trauma means she's got both 'nature' and 'nurture' issues working against her...it's complex and going to take a lot.  I may reconsider the request she had for me to go with her to therapy.  I can't do this for her or be there for all of it but maybe I should go for at least the first visit...I don't know. 

RE: storage -  She actually had gotten a storage unit some years ago.  She didn't tell me until she'd had it for a couple of years.  I think most of the stuff she really wants is out of the house at this point.  She is in a better mood now that she knows where she's going and likely specifically because she didn't have to make the decision (she looks at herself as someone who CANNOT make decisions) where to go since my aunt called and offered.

Thank you for the reminder RE: APS by the way; I need to jump back on that asap this coming week.

[cchrissyy]

I don't have any fresh advice I just want to say this is my real life situation too

My mom has had unaddressed mental issues as long as I've known her.  'If' indeed the issues are on a decline (which is likely), they've been on the decline for many years

And you got born into that reality but it is not your job to fix it. Sorry but it's probably not even possible. But if it was, your mom's sister and community are more responsible for it than you are.

[iluvzbeach]

@EconDiva, my parent didn’t want to take me up on the offer to help explore other housing arrangements because they refused to relinquish any sort of control, even though their “control” resulted in absolute chaos. I guess the bottomline is that people are allowed to make terrible decisions and unless they are declared mentally incompetent, there isn’t much we can legally do about it. They may have mental health concerns but, ultimately, they have to decide they are ready to do something about it. As terrible as this sounds, I feel a tremendous sense of relief that the chaos with my parent is now over. It’s been six months today, in fact, and I’m really beginning to feel the difference it’s made in my life. Mostly what I have grieved is knowing there is no longer a chance that they’ll ever get better and no longer a chance for them to be the parent I needed them to be.

It is so very hard to be in this position. I know what you describe so well - trying to work and do a good job of it, trying to eat right & exercise and take care of your own mental well-being and then to have these parental issues on top of it. It’s a lot and it’s tough to navigate.

FWIW, I can’t tell how you feel about your brother’s decision in regard to his willingness to help, but it sounds like he has established a boundary that he feels he needs to keep and I do think this is healthy on his part (even if you don’t necessarily agree with his decision and feel like you could use his help.)

For now, rejoice in the fact that your aunt has offered your mom a place to stay. Hopefully a more permanent housing solution will come available that doesn’t involve you buying a place for your mom to reside in.

[former player]

I'm sorry you are going through this.

You obviously feel the need to do something to help, but I would like to point out that there are others (your aunt, and possibly also your cousin) who are in a much better position to help by providing housing than you are, and are stepping up to do it.  Let them do it!  I can't see that you having your mother living with you would be anything but a disaster for both of you, so it's a good thing that you are going to have to stay in your own studio.

I'm glad the real estate agent and buyer seem to have given up on trying to bully you into taking responsibility for something which is not your responsibility.  It's a clear case of buyer beware, but I bet they knew what they were getting and paid the sort of price that will make it worth while to them.  Not your job to save them money by clearing anything out yourself.

As to arranging health treatment for your mother, I would be extremely careful about doing this, because you might end up being responsible for paying for it, even if you just ring to make an appointment on her behalf.  Certainly never sign anything related to her health treatment ever, no matter what you are told about what the purpose of your signature is - health providers are not above misunderstanding, or even lying, about such things.

[elaine amj]

Glad to hear your mother is moving in with her sister and happy about it. Take this win and don’t borrow extra trouble. Based on your descriptions, it really sounds like the next best step is a room in a retirement home where she gets meals, laundry and baths and yet keeps some level of independence. It really worked great for my FIL (until he needed more care and moved to a nursing home).

For now, she is moving in with her sister and all is settled (temporarily at least). You cross the next bridge when you come to it.

One thought instead of trying to buy her a house - can you do what you can to support her living with her sister? Things like paying for a cleaning lady and/or sending takeout meals 1-2x a week. It sounds like the most ideal situation for you for your mom to live with her sister so I’d be pulling out the stops to make that situation work.


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[EconDiva]

Glad to hear your mother is moving in with her sister and happy about it. Take this win and don’t borrow extra trouble. Based on your descriptions, it really sounds like the next best step is a room in a retirement home where she gets meals, laundry and baths and yet keeps some level of independence. It really worked great for my FIL (until he needed more care and moved to a nursing home).

For now, she is moving in with her sister and all is settled (temporarily at least). You cross the next bridge when you come to it.

One thought instead of trying to buy her a house - can you do what you can to support her living with her sister? Things like paying for a cleaning lady and/or sending takeout meals 1-2x a week. It sounds like the most ideal situation for you for your mom to live with her sister so I’d be pulling out the stops to make that situation work.


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Thank you.

Her sister is going to move to my city (eventually).  I don't know when but she will not stay in the city she's currently in because her children have moved to the city I live in and she stated she is looking for homes here and wants to retire here.  So it 'may' not be this year but likely it'll be next year or the year after I think. 

Sorry for my ignorance but are retirement homes affordable?  I thought they were super expensive.  If my mom takes SS today at 63 she'll get $912 and if she waits til FRA she'll get ~$1500 so we're trying to figure out when she should take it.  Considering how much single family living would cost, the fact I'll be paying for it on my own (with little support from my mom since her SS is fairly low), the multi-family situation seemed most appealing (as a 'longer term' solution) due to the potential for additional income to support paying for the 'new' place.

My thought right now is to take my time moving back here which will give some more time to determine what I'll support with.  Right now I'm thinking more of a support role as in going to some of her appointments (i.e., psychologist, PCP, government housing appointments, etc.).  What I'm thinking might happen now is she stays with her sis for a few (or more than a few) months.  Then gets support for no/low income housing that she can live in on her own.  I'll be here to facilitate the process and ensure the place is in a good location and has what she needs.  I will look for multifamilies while living here and assess if it makes sense to buy one (if the right property comes up and we have problems finding a place for her on her own...or if I determine that she will likely still need a different place to live in 'eventually' then the multifamily route will be seriously considered but only if truly needed).  But I want to prioritize her finding a place of her own as the first option for now.

[EconDiva]

Glad to hear your mother is moving in with her sister and happy about it.

I should clarify she was 'relieved' she didn't have to be the one to decide where to go and she didn't have to do any asking - so there was some immediate relief with respect to having a roof over her head.

She is definitely not happy about it; I had to cut off a tangent she was going on with me today about all of the negative things this aunt was saying about me recently and how my mom is 'scared' to live with her and on and on and on...I told her to STOP and that we will NOT be having any further 'discussions' about her sister anymore going forward.  I'm setting a boundary to be excluded from any of that as her sis is one of those HIGHLY dysfunctional people that gives a general/outward appearance of being functional.  I'm not about to start intertwining this housing situation issue with all of the other dysfunction in the family that is going on.  I will not come back here temporarily to be brought in to any of that. 

I will continue to clarify with my mom what I can/can't support with going forward so it's clear to both of us the plan and expectations.

[Dicey]

OMG, I did not realize your mother is so young! Here, let me pile on extra heaps of sympathy. Sending hugs too.

[EconDiva]

One thought instead of trying to buy her a house - can you do what you can to support her living with her sister? Things like paying for a cleaning lady and/or sending takeout meals 1-2x a week. It sounds like the most ideal situation for you for your mom to live with her sister so I’d be pulling out the stops to make that situation work.


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^Totally overlooked the above somehow.

So..I put my mom on a joint credit card account with me a few years ago.  So we discussed what needs she can charge to the card going forward, which includes food, gas and car insurance basically.  Good suggestion regarding the cleaning but because she doesn't work and the cleaning involves my aunt's house my mom can just do the cleaning herself.  I'm trying to keep the charges to things specifically for my mom - my aunt/mom can discuss what they need to discuss regarding anything pertaining to my aunt's place or details for 'earning her stay' there so to speak; I will stay out of that completely.

FYI; I stopped sending my mom money for anything maybe 6 or 7 years ago.  The card allows me visibility and 'some' control.  She's had it for a few years now and never abused it/rarely used it; she reaches out to ask to use it when things are really dire (unemployment check is running behind for instance), so I think this plan will be fine...temporarily.  At least I'll get a few extra cc points out of it (trying to find something positive to say).

[iluvzbeach]

If you haven’t already, try to start working on getting your mom into low/no income housing and food stamps, if she’s eligible. As far as a retirement home goes, the only way that can be paid for outside of you paying is for her to be in a nursing home and on Medicaid. If she’s not working right now and she’s not mentally capable of working, it might be worthwhile to explore disability through social security. My dad ended up needing to do this as he was incapable of working and, although it initially got declined, he was able to work through an attorney (at no out of pocket cost to him) to get approved. Helping to set up social services like this for your mother may be the best way to handle this and alleviate the burden on you, not only for the day-to-day stuff but also financially.

[EconDiva]

If you haven’t already, try to start working on getting your mom into low/no income housing and food stamps, if she’s eligible. As far as a retirement home goes, the only way that can be paid for outside of you paying is for her to be in a nursing home and on Medicaid. If she’s not working right now and she’s not mentally capable of working, it might be worthwhile to explore disability through social security. My dad ended up needing to do this as he was incapable of working and, although it initially got declined, he was able to work through an attorney (at no out of pocket cost to him) to get approved. Helping to set up social services like this for your mother may be the best way to handle this and alleviate the burden on you, not only for the day-to-day stuff but also financially.

She's been on food stamps for years.  They recently denied her last request or something so I don't know what's going on with that but I know she's been doing the calling for all of that so hopefully they straighten that out for her.  Actually I'm not sure if she'll still qualify living with my Aunt?  Didn't think about that.  My aunt is a 6-figure earner.

I will definitely support with looking into the low/no income housing thing 'with' her.

Thank you for the info RE: SS disability!  I assume she has to go the 'either or' route there correct?  Meaning either she can get SS benefits, 'or' she can get disability benefits?

She's got several 'associates' telling her to file now and I keep telling her not to do anything as we really need to research this more.  Of note, her estimates are below...I'd love to hear from others when they'd file if they were in her situation:

63 and 2 months $927
64 $983
65 $1,063
66 $1,143
66 and 8 months $1,196
68 $1,244
69 $1,339
70 $1,515

[iluvzbeach]

I am not a lawyer or even remotely an expert on the whole disability thing but I think disability will pay out more than social security, but I don’t know whether that’s forever. Is your mom already 62? If so, I don’t know if disability is still an option. If I were you, I’d prioritize this in terms of conducting research.

I know that for my dad, he was able to have the disability be retroactive about 19 months, so he got a fairly large lump sum check (attorney kept a portion of it as their fees) and then, of course, he promptly blew threw the rest of it buying more stuff to hoard. I don’t know whether he remained on disability for the rest of his life or if it switched to regular social security at some point.

If your mom can’t get disability and she’s not capable of holding any sort of job, I don’t see any reason why she shouldn’t claim SS as soon as possible. I would not suggest you plan to support her to the age of 70 when the higher amounts kick in. With the smaller check amount she should be available for all sorts of social services. Figuring out how to get her on those would be at the top of my list. The more you can alleviate financial burden on you, the better. Having her live with you could greatly affect her eligibility for services.

[Cassie]

I retired 10 years ago but it used to be that you could get disability SSDI until your full retirement age and then it reverted to your normal SS. We had clients in this situation. It’s really is difficult to get SSDI and can take up to 2 years but if you win you get back pay. Having a lawyer really helps versus doing it yourself. I would get her on a list for low income senior housing.

[EconDiva]

I looked on the local housing authority site and noted there's an "EHV" or "Emergency Housing Voucher" program that provides housing for individuals and families who are homeless, at risk of homelessness recently homeless or fleeing.  The information posted states:


How do I apply for an EHV?

We have received the maximum number of applications for the program.  We will post further application openings if additional resources become available.

So I went to see if I can apply for Section 8 housing and the site states:

Apply for Housing
There are currently no open waiting lists.  Please check back often and subscribe to news to stay up to date on future openings.

How Do I Apply For Housing?

There are currently no open waiting lists.  Please check back often and subscribe to news to stay up to date on future openings.


This is all new to me, so I guess resources for those who need support are very limited and take a very long time to get?  Not that I expected otherwise I guess...

I will call APS when I return back home to start discussions on where exactly I really can start with this whole low/no income housing application process. 

[iluvzbeach]

Yes, it definitely takes a while so very important to get started as quickly as possible. You might also check with her local senior services organization to see if there might be other options (provided she’s of qualifying age.)

[Dr Kidstache]

I retired 10 years ago but it used to be that you could get disability SSDI until your full retirement age and then it reverted to your normal SS. We had clients in this situation. It’s really is difficult to get SSDI and can take up to 2 years but if you win you get back pay. Having a lawyer really helps versus doing it yourself. I would get her on a list for low income senior housing.

I'm on SSDI and, yes, SSDI payments are based on your SS contributions just like normal SS. So her SSDI benefits (assuming she would be eligible to receive them) would be similar to her normal SS amount until full retirement age and then it's just normal SS. The big benefit to SSDI in my experience is Medicare eligibility but this really wouldn't benefit her because you only become Medicare eligible after receiving SSDI for 2 years so that's a wash for her at her age. If you use a lawyer to do the SSDI application, their fee would eat up a fair bit of the value of her payments.

[EconDiva]

I retired 10 years ago but it used to be that you could get disability SSDI until your full retirement age and then it reverted to your normal SS. We had clients in this situation. It’s really is difficult to get SSDI and can take up to 2 years but if you win you get back pay. Having a lawyer really helps versus doing it yourself. I would get her on a list for low income senior housing.

I'm on SSDI and, yes, SSDI payments are based on your SS contributions just like normal SS. So her SSDI benefits (assuming she would be eligible to receive them) would be similar to her normal SS amount until full retirement age and then it's just normal SS. The big benefit to SSDI in my experience is Medicare eligibility but this really wouldn't benefit her because you only become Medicare eligible after receiving SSDI for 2 years so that's a wash for her at her age. If you use a lawyer to do the SSDI application, their fee would eat up a fair bit of the value of her payments.

Thank you both for your insight.

[SunnyDays]

One thing no one has asked and I don’t remember from your posts is whether your mom is still continuing to hoard?  If so, this will affect the longevity of any housing situation and makes therapy crucial.

Your mention of her inability to make decisions about other things as well as around acquiring/disposing of possessions might be the key “disability” that keeps her where she is and could also be a symptom of depression.  If she’s not on antidepressants, this might be a worthwhile discussion with any therapist she sees.

The progress a person can make with the right medications and having their thinking process addressed can be nothing short of amazing.  There is hope, but she has to get the right help and for that she needs a thorough assessment.  Once her immediate housing needs are settled, I would focus on that.

[elaine amj]

One thought instead of trying to buy her a house - can you do what you can to support her living with her sister? Things like paying for a cleaning lady and/or sending takeout meals 1-2x a week. It sounds like the most ideal situation for you for your mom to live with her sister so I’d be pulling out the stops to make that situation work.


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^Totally overlooked the above somehow.

So..I put my mom on a joint credit card account with me a few years ago.  So we discussed what needs she can charge to the card going forward, which includes food, gas and car insurance basically.  Good suggestion regarding the cleaning but because she doesn't work and the cleaning involves my aunt's house my mom can just do the cleaning herself.  I'm trying to keep the charges to things specifically for my mom - my aunt/mom can discuss what they need to discuss regarding anything pertaining to my aunt's place or details for 'earning her stay' there so to speak; I will stay out of that completely.

FYI; I stopped sending my mom money for anything maybe 6 or 7 years ago.  The card allows me visibility and 'some' control.  She's had it for a few years now and never abused it/rarely used it; she reaches out to ask to use it when things are really dire (unemployment check is running behind for instance), so I think this plan will be fine...temporarily.  At least I'll get a few extra cc points out of it (trying to find something positive to say).

My suggestion is to support your aunt in caring for your mother.

It sounds like your aunt has a lot of her own dysfunctional thing going on - but I’d suggest you assess if this is a situation that benefits you. If so, it would be well worth redirecting some of that money to spending on your aunt (or on both of them with an eye to supporting your aunt) as that benefits you in the long run.

Hopefully your mother works out a way to “earn her stay” so to speak, but if she doesn’t quite do enough, some additional support from you could tip the scales in the way you prefer.

Caregiving, particularly for someone dealing with depression, is very draining.


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[EconDiva]

One thought instead of trying to buy her a house - can you do what you can to support her living with her sister? Things like paying for a cleaning lady and/or sending takeout meals 1-2x a week. It sounds like the most ideal situation for you for your mom to live with her sister so I’d be pulling out the stops to make that situation work.


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^Totally overlooked the above somehow.

So..I put my mom on a joint credit card account with me a few years ago.  So we discussed what needs she can charge to the card going forward, which includes food, gas and car insurance basically.  Good suggestion regarding the cleaning but because she doesn't work and the cleaning involves my aunt's house my mom can just do the cleaning herself.  I'm trying to keep the charges to things specifically for my mom - my aunt/mom can discuss what they need to discuss regarding anything pertaining to my aunt's place or details for 'earning her stay' there so to speak; I will stay out of that completely.

FYI; I stopped sending my mom money for anything maybe 6 or 7 years ago.  The card allows me visibility and 'some' control.  She's had it for a few years now and never abused it/rarely used it; she reaches out to ask to use it when things are really dire (unemployment check is running behind for instance), so I think this plan will be fine...temporarily.  At least I'll get a few extra cc points out of it (trying to find something positive to say).

My suggestion is to support your aunt in caring for your mother.

It sounds like your aunt has a lot of her own dysfunctional thing going on - but I’d suggest you assess if this is a situation that benefits you. If so, it would be well worth redirecting some of that money to spending on your aunt (or on both of them with an eye to supporting your aunt) as that benefits you in the long run.

Hopefully your mother works out a way to “earn her stay” so to speak, but if she doesn’t quite do enough, some additional support from you could tip the scales in the way you prefer.

Caregiving, particularly for someone dealing with depression, is very draining.


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I really can't get into the backstory with the aunt; all I can say bother saying is it's bad so it's best I keep my distance; I will not be sending anything to her and will not be initiating any communications to/with her. 

The things my mom is telling me my aunt is saying will only escalate when she moves in with her because (and trust me when I say this) my aunt would like nothing more than to negatively impact the relationship I have with my mom so although on the outside it seems she is great and happy to support, the truth is she wants the outward appearance of doing that but has other motives which aren't good. 

She's just one of those people who are manipulative, extremely draining due to their negativity as she is truly miserable at heart, and wants to see others miserable/take it out on others.  I'm done with that part of my life - the part that accepted verbal abuse from her for so long because that's basically what it's been.  After what was relayed to me today, I'm setting up boundaries with people 'right now' to further limit indirect messaging of things she's now saying and doing now that my mom is about to move in with her; I am not about to go down that road.  I mentioned this upthread but I will not communicate with her; it would only further complicate things.

My mom can use the joint card account to spend on whatever she feels appropriate to 'help' my aunt with while there so to speak. 

[elaine amj]

That makes sense :) Hoping your mother settles in fine and all goes well!


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[Miss Piggy]

I looked at a home with an in-law suite as I'm still weighing the option of coming here as it's a bit difficult to support her from afar and I also believe that 'one day' I will eventually need to be closer to her...even if it's not permanently.  A duplex/triplex or in-law suite gives me the option to rent out a part that can cover hopefully most of the mortgage.  I could live there temporarily to get her situated if I end up going this route and can come/go and live there too as needed.

Forgive me, as I am VERY late to this discussion, and I'm sure I must be missing a key point you've very likely considered, but I will ask this anyway: Why uproot your own life to move to her, versus bringing her to your area?

My heart goes out to you. This is not easy, I'm sure.

[EconDiva]

I looked at a home with an in-law suite as I'm still weighing the option of coming here as it's a bit difficult to support her from afar and I also believe that 'one day' I will eventually need to be closer to her...even if it's not permanently.  A duplex/triplex or in-law suite gives me the option to rent out a part that can cover hopefully most of the mortgage.  I could live there temporarily to get her situated if I end up going this route and can come/go and live there too as needed.

Forgive me, as I am VERY late to this discussion, and I'm sure I must be missing a key point you've very likely considered, but I will ask this anyway: Why uproot your own life to move to her, versus bringing her to your area?

My heart goes out to you. This is not easy, I'm sure.

The reasons why (after much consideration) I decided not to move her close to me:

I live in a larger city 4 hours away from her current town.  She's already not thriving in the little town she lives in.  I'm actually trying to ultimately move her about an hour away from where she currently lives to a city that's way smaller than where I live now (but larger than her current town), and she's been fighting me on that.  This is despite the fact that the city I'm trying to move her to is the city where her current church (and church friends) are located.  Ultimately I don't want her in a place she is telling me she strongly dislikes (meaning where I live now) as I know she will be confined to the house, scared to go outside.  When she comes to visit me here she won't leave to walk across the street by herself to the drug store unless I go with her; she absolutely hates change but is extremely overwhelmed by larger places as they are too fast paced for her.  There is absolutely no way she will drive in the city where I currently live.  Ultimately, I think we'd both be compromising as I'm not moving to her actual small town and she's not staying there either (which she would prefer) so neither of us really gets what we truly want.  However, at least I get her closer to a social network and amenities (more access to good doctors, jobs, activities, an airport, etc.). 

I do not plan on staying where I currently live long term.  I love where I live now but my dream is to do much more traveling than I currently do.  I have moved on average every 18 months the past 20 years.  I want to eventually set myself up with a 'home base' in the US while I travel domestically and abroad away from the home base for up to half of the year.  I'm finally getting to a point with work where this is actually doable for me.  So I'm thinking I might as well make the home base my mom's place - that way I am checking in on her whenever I'm here.  It makes the most sense to me for the home to be in a place that suits her best as she'd be in it 100% of the time.  Keep in mind that I won't even plan to get a home together with her if we can get her into her own low/no-income housing place because that is the step we are looking into right now/prioritizing.  So the shared home closer to her might end up being a mute point.  I just know we're up for a long process with respect to the current plan of getting her into her own place (alone).

[EconDiva]

One thing no one has asked and I don’t remember from your posts is whether your mom is still continuing to hoard?  If so, this will affect the longevity of any housing situation and makes therapy crucial.

Your mention of her inability to make decisions about other things as well as around acquiring/disposing of possessions might be the key “disability” that keeps her where she is and could also be a symptom of depression.  If she’s not on antidepressants, this might be a worthwhile discussion with any therapist she sees.

The progress a person can make with the right medications and having their thinking process addressed can be nothing short of amazing.  There is hope, but she has to get the right help and for that she needs a thorough assessment.  Once her immediate housing needs are settled, I would focus on that.

That's a great question; I'm not sure if she's continuing to hoard.  I'm just going to guess that she is.

The antidepressant discussion is going to be tough; we've had mannnnnny discussions about them and after being on lithium for a very short period some decades ago she has vowed no one would ever put her on them again. 

[EconDiva]

Mostly what I have grieved is knowing there is no longer a chance that they’ll ever get better and no longer a chance for them to be the parent I needed them to be.

^This is almost verbatim what my therapist keeps telling me I need to do - grieve the loss of having a mother.  I just keep telling the therapist that I don't know what that means in a literal sense.  I truly don't know what I'm supposed to be doing in order to 'grieve this loss'.

FWIW, I can’t tell how you feel about your brother’s decision in regard to his willingness to help, but it sounds like he has established a boundary that he feels he needs to keep and I do think this is healthy on his part (even if you don’t necessarily agree with his decision and feel like you could use his help.)

I don't know how I feel about it.  I think I respect his decision/boundaries.  At the same time I feel its unfair.  I'm paying for everything by myself and he's choosing not to pay anything.  Then again it's my choice so it doesn't make sense to feel unfair because I could make the same choice as him.  I just don't think it's the right thing to do though.  I just lean towards the understanding my therapist has - thank God I found her when I did last year.  I was starting to think I was crazy for even wanting to help my mom because I was getting so many opinions regarding how much it would hurt me and how much she won't change, but once I got my current therapist who understands just how much my mom isn't capable of doing, I feel a bit better about the decisions I'm making with respect to what I'm willing and not willing to do. 

[charis]

Mostly what I have grieved is knowing there is no longer a chance that they’ll ever get better and no longer a chance for them to be the parent I needed them to be.

^This is almost verbatim what my therapist keeps telling me I need to do - grieve the loss of having a mother.  I just keep telling the therapist that I don't know what that means in a literal sense.  I truly don't know what I'm supposed to be doing in order to 'grieve this loss'.

FWIW, I can’t tell how you feel about your brother’s decision in regard to his willingness to help, but it sounds like he has established a boundary that he feels he needs to keep and I do think this is healthy on his part (even if you don’t necessarily agree with his decision and feel like you could use his help.)

I don't know how I feel about it.  I think I respect his decision/boundaries.  At the same time I feel its unfair.  I'm paying for everything by myself and he's choosing not to pay anything.  Then again it's my choice so it doesn't make sense to feel unfair because I could make the same choice as him.  I just don't think it's the right thing to do though.  I just lean towards the understanding my therapist has - thank God I found her when I did last year.  I was starting to think I was crazy for even wanting to help my mom because I was getting so many opinions regarding how much it would hurt me and how much she won't change, but once I got my current therapist who understands just how much my mom isn't capable of doing, I feel a bit better about the decisions I'm making with respect to what I'm willing and not willing to do.

You don't think your brother is doing the right thing, or it's not right for you personally?  I have a relative who is reacting like your bother in a similar situation, and doesn't have much of a relationship with their ailing parents, but his sibling is more like you. They've had a frank discussion, though, about how different their experiences were growing up. One sibling felt supported and closer to their parents while the other felt that the parents were neglectful and frankly abusive.  It's interesting to see how different they experienced family life four years apart in age.

[DaMa]

Virtual hugs and prayers for you, Econdiva. 

[EconDiva]

Mostly what I have grieved is knowing there is no longer a chance that they’ll ever get better and no longer a chance for them to be the parent I needed them to be.

^This is almost verbatim what my therapist keeps telling me I need to do - grieve the loss of having a mother.  I just keep telling the therapist that I don't know what that means in a literal sense.  I truly don't know what I'm supposed to be doing in order to 'grieve this loss'.

FWIW, I can’t tell how you feel about your brother’s decision in regard to his willingness to help, but it sounds like he has established a boundary that he feels he needs to keep and I do think this is healthy on his part (even if you don’t necessarily agree with his decision and feel like you could use his help.)

I don't know how I feel about it.  I think I respect his decision/boundaries.  At the same time I feel its unfair.  I'm paying for everything by myself and he's choosing not to pay anything.  Then again it's my choice so it doesn't make sense to feel unfair because I could make the same choice as him.  I just don't think it's the right thing to do though.  I just lean towards the understanding my therapist has - thank God I found her when I did last year.  I was starting to think I was crazy for even wanting to help my mom because I was getting so many opinions regarding how much it would hurt me and how much she won't change, but once I got my current therapist who understands just how much my mom isn't capable of doing, I feel a bit better about the decisions I'm making with respect to what I'm willing and not willing to do.

You don't think your brother is doing the right thing, or it's not right for you personally?  I have a relative who is reacting like your bother in a similar situation, and doesn't have much of a relationship with their ailing parents, but his sibling is more like you. They've had a frank discussion, though, about how different their experiences were growing up. One sibling felt supported and closer to their parents while the other felt that the parents were neglectful and frankly abusive.  It's interesting to see how different they experienced family life four years apart in age.

I think the 'right' thing for him to do might be for him to help my mother in some way...yes, paying one of the bills would be nice so 100% of it isn't all on me.  At minimum, trying to show a bit more patience and empathy for her would be nice (although I'm struggling 'hard' in this area myself which is very draining).

I tend to think we feel very similarly but that he believes she can do much more for herself than I believe she can.  In other words, I think I attribute more of her behavior to being ill while he attributes more of it to simply 'being a bad decision maker' (his own words).  Simply put, I believe he sees her as more functional than I see her as, which I don't understand because functional/normal/healthy/able people do 'not' do the things she does (and neglect the things she neglects) to this extent. 

Of course, I can't speak for him so who knows.  You're raising a 'very' good question that has me thinking, as some years ago when my mom and I met up with him (after not seeing him for years) for a vacation to 'reunite' so to speak, he got into a huge blowup with her the first night (her fault really) and left us (leaving me a note apologizing that he basically couldn't stay with us/partake in the rest of the trip because of her) so we didn't see him again and ultimately spent the rest of the trip just the two us without hearing from him before returning to our destinations.  At one point in the blowup he mentioned something specific she had said to him years ago as a teenager (it was very upsetting to hear she'd said this; apparently I'd already been off to college).  It kinda broke my heart to hear (she denied it which just angered him further but I totally believe she said it, while I also believe she doesn't remember saying it); I realized at that point that he has a LOT of anger towards her. 

[EconDiva]

^Regarding the above, I should say that I think I'm doing pretty well with not holding any resentment towards my brother about anything though.  I hope it stays that way...at least, I will work to keep it that way.

Years ago I had a conversation with my grandfather (he's passed)...he was basically like my father.  I really miss that man.  A man of little words but a whole lot of wisdom.  I asked him for his advice.  I stated how bad of a condition my mom's house is in, how she continues to hoard and how it continues to get worse.  I asked him, what I should I do about this?  How do I help her?

He sat there silent for a few seconds.  Then he turned to me and stated, "I don't know."

There was a pause, and he went on to say, "I don't know, Econdiva.  All I know is that your mom's situation is a ticking time bomb.  And I won't be here when the bomb goes off."  <pause>  "All I can say is, when everything explodes, just be sure that you do not hold resentment towards the one that chooses not to help you when everything hits the fan."

[iluvzbeach]

Mostly what I have grieved is knowing there is no longer a chance that they’ll ever get better and no longer a chance for them to be the parent I needed them to be.

^This is almost verbatim what my therapist keeps telling me I need to do - grieve the loss of having a mother.  I just keep telling the therapist that I don't know what that means in a literal sense.  I truly don't know what I'm supposed to be doing in order to 'grieve this loss'.

FWIW, I can’t tell how you feel about your brother’s decision in regard to his willingness to help, but it sounds like he has established a boundary that he feels he needs to keep and I do think this is healthy on his part (even if you don’t necessarily agree with his decision and feel like you could use his help.)

I don't know how I feel about it.  I think I respect his decision/boundaries.  At the same time I feel its unfair.  I'm paying for everything by myself and he's choosing not to pay anything.  Then again it's my choice so it doesn't make sense to feel unfair because I could make the same choice as him.  I just don't think it's the right thing to do though.  I just lean towards the understanding my therapist has - thank God I found her when I did last year.  I was starting to think I was crazy for even wanting to help my mom because I was getting so many opinions regarding how much it would hurt me and how much she won't change, but once I got my current therapist who understands just how much my mom isn't capable of doing, I feel a bit better about the decisions I'm making with respect to what I'm willing and not willing to do.

EconDiva, I’m going to respond here to both of your comments but I’m not talented enough to quote each in the correct spot, so hopefully it’ll work to have it all right here.

In regard to the grief comment, it is something that didn’t hit me until a few weeks after my dad died. Suddenly I had this overwhelming sadness at the realization that all hope for change with him was gone. Forever. Period. Over. Then, within a few minutes I had this feeling that the sadness was tied to the fact that he just wasn’t capable (or willing) of being the parent I needed him to be and never would be since he was now gone. I cried about it, it really hurt. It still hurts at times as this is all still pretty new to me, but it’s getting better day-by-day. I think what it really boils down to is learning to accept that things are what they are and that there’s likely nothing you/me/we can do to change them. It’s tough. I don’t know how possible it really is to grieve this in advance. However, I am very close to someone who had similar issues with a parent and she had done much of her grieving in advance of her mother’s death, and it may be because she’d reached acceptance around the situation never improving.

Regarding your brother’s decision, my only follow-up comment on that is that I’m not saying I agree with him, I’m saying that it’s healthy he has established a boundary and is sticking firm to it. Like the poster above said, your brother may have an entirely different perspective on being raised by your mother and this may likely influence his willingness to offer help. I hope you’ll be able to maintain a relationship with him (if it’s a healthy one) even if you disagree about the responsibilities you have toward your mother.

Edit: The two previous replies were posted while I was typing the above. Yes, it sounds like your brother has established a boundary for a reason; hopefully, you’ll be able to respect that and not feel resentment. Regarding your mother not being “able” to help herself, I would challenge you on this. She can help herself, but it sounds like she’s severely medically depressed and needs to be on medication for it. Seeing a doctor and taking meds (if prescribed) would be how she helps herself. Not doing so is a choice. That choice has consequences. Those consequences should be hers to own. Short of getting the medical help she needs, I don’t see how this will end well.

[iris lily]

I think you expectation that your brother pay something towards the upkeep of your mother, assuming he can afford it, is reasonable. In the other areas  you’re dictating to him how he needs to think and feel meaning he needs to regard her with more compassion. You don’t really get to tell him that. But really he doesn’t  have to pay anything towards her support anyway.

But you know that.

 Of course she’s continuing to hoard. Also you cannot  make her take medication and I don’t know why you would get into a ongoing conflict about that, you can’t make her. Period.

Boy your grandfather sure was wise.

I don’t know what’s going to happen with your mom and her sister, but this is another instance where your mother gets to make her own decision about where she lives. She gets to make her own decision about what she takes out of her current house. When the sheriff comes, her opportunity to pull her own stuff out vpwill be greatly limited.

She’s already shown 1000 times she’s not gonna pay attention to what you tell her.

[iris lily]

First of all, that realtor has a hell of a lot of nerve assigning this problem to you! This is your mother, but it is NOT your problem. In your shoes, I think I'd do this. Call a large Real Estate firm in the area and ask for the person (people) who handle probate and-or foreclosure cases. I know your mom is alive, but they're going to be the ones with the most likely relevant experience. I strongly suspect once a home is foreclosed upon, it's the lender's problem to deal with, not yours. It may also fall to the buyer, because these houses are typically sold "as-is", which means the buyer knows exactly what they're getting into. I repeat, NOT your problem.

If what is needed is assistance with removal of your mother from the property, I expect you may need to step up, but you have no legal responsibility for the house and contents. Of course, I'm assuming you are not on title.

I completely understand the desire to escape this problem by sleeping. You have my complete sympathy.

I think the real estate agent did the logically empathetic thing,, call the problem tenant’s daughter. The daughter was presented by tenant as coming in to help her mother anyway. The real estate person is doing a kindness by trying to get an idea of when the tenant will move out voluntarily.

I wouldn’t call any real estate people I would just assume that if evictions are happening post Covid in this locale, a sheriff will evict her mother, end of story.

Their responsibility of this problem lies with the tenant here not the buyer of the real estate she’s squatting in.

[iluvzbeach]

EconDiva’s mother wasn’t a tenant. She was the property owner and was foreclosed on. The realtor is working with the new owners.

EconDiva, sorry to pipe in here again but I wanted to come back to say I hope you don’t think my last response was insensitive in regard to your mom owning the consequences. That is not my intent at all. You getting counseling is very good as it pertains to your own health and well-being, and for determining how you will help, if at all, in this situation. I was thinking further about what appear to be mental health concerns for your mom and I thought of this analogy that I wanted to share. If your mom had cancer and refused to see a doctor for it, what would you be able to do to help her with “fixing” the cancer? You wouldn’t be able to do anything, other than continue encouraging her to see a doctor. Now, for a moment, let’s pretend the mental health issues are like a type of cancer (hypothetically thinking), is the situation not the same? You can encourage her to seek medical advice, but if she won’t do that she will only continue to get sicker. You won’t be able to cure her and bringing her into a home (whether you just pay for it or potentially live there too) with you is just going to put your own health & well-being at risk.