Author Topic: Early 30s, new job, FIRE ready in 3 years? Second set of eyes would be great!  (Read 1503 times)

sbzellison

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Hello!  I've been frugal my whole life (thanks mom and dad!) and a reader of this blog for years, but a recent move to a new city and a higher stress (and much higher earning) job has made me want to lock down an age at which I can count on being retired. 

The point of this post is not really to get advice on how to cut spending, which is why expenses are rather vague--apologies.  Feel free to offer what advice you'd like on that front, though!  I'm primarily concerned with the following three questions:

  • My husband enjoys his work and would like to continue working for at least 10 years.  My job is pretty stressful and I would like to know I will have the freedom to quit in 3 years.  If I quit in 3 years, and husband in 10 years, will we have enough to support ourselves? Assumptions are that expenses would go down during retirement to possibly ~45k/year (e.g., currently maintaining two households which would stop) and I would, once I recover from high stress job, continue to earn some amount during retirement, conservative assumption $10k.  Husband will collect pension starting in 18 years of an unknown amount, probably ~15% of his highest pay...we can likely assume that would account for at least 20% of our expenses starting at age 52.
  • After maxing out IRAs and HSA, what is the best investment vehicle for us?  I used to put extra cash into our taxable account, but husband and I now work for the Federal government, opening up the world of the Thrift Savings Plan (TSP), which is similar to the 401k, but which I don't fully understand and is relatively new to me.  One question I have is whether these funds are accessible to us before age 55 (23 years away for me)--a quick Google suggests I may be able to convert it to Roth and put it through the Roth ladder, but I'm not positive I trust that.  Other options for current extra cash include refinancing house to 15-year mortgage, or paying extra mortgage payments.
  • I incurred $1500 in medical expenses this year which I paid out of pocket.  Should I try to get reimbursed from the funds in my HSA or just not worry about it?

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Life Situation: Married filing jointly, no kids, no plan for kids.  One cat, he's loud but cheap.  Alaska, USA.

Gross Salary/Wages: Me: $89k, Husband: $60k.  Employer matching retirement and HSA: $7.8k. 

Taxes: For simplicity, I estimate deductions due to taxes are 22% (including all federal tax, Medicare etc)--this is confirmed from last year's marginal tax bracket, our tax refund, and current paycheck deductions.  No state tax or sales tax.

Rental Income: Last year we remodeled our split level into two separate units with the intention of renting out one unit for $1300/month.  Currently not fully capitalizing on this as we soon intend to occupy downstairs and remodel upstairs.  YTD rental income: $2.4k

Total Net Income: rounded to $127k

Current expenses:
  • Average monthly mortgage+taxes+util cost: $2100/month (see below for more details)
  • Rent+internet payment for husband's house (we work separately for much of the year): $700
  • Phones: $40/month--Google Fi
  • Health+car+renters insurance: $340/month ($125 of health ins premium automatically contributed to HSA, accounted for in income)
  • Food: $650/month (incl eating out, alcohol etc)
  • Cars gas/maintenance: $300/month (two older vehicles paid fully, one higher fuel efficiency, one larger vehicle used for construction projects.  Much highway driving as we live separately and see each other on weekends.)
  • Misc spending: $650/month.  Sorry, I know this is a very low level of detail.  I don't enjoy budgeting and have used our good financial situation and general baseline frugality to basically just not worry about it...I know that's not fully Mustachian! This number comes from an average of our credit card statements minus expenses accounted for elsewhere.  Main expenses include tools, home improvement supplies, outdoor recreation equipment, travel to lower 48 to see family (~2x/yr), clothes and personal care, vet bills...

Total monthly expenses: $4780, yearly: $57360

Assets: ~$60k from house if we sold today.  $8k in cars.  Financial holdings:
  • Vanguard taxable: $276k, 10% bonds, 20% Vanguard total international, 70% Vanguard total stock market
  • Roth IRA (me): $100k, 50% Vanguard 2050, 15% Vanguard total international, 23% Vanguard total stock market, 12% REITs
  • Roth IRA (husband): $89k, variety of mutual funds, managed by family mortgage broker--very unclear on fees and asset allocation
  • HSA: $15k, invested in Vanguard 2050 retirement fund
  • Gift account from parents: $22k, invested primarily in NASDAQ, significant capital gains when sold
  • TSP--me: $9k, invested in 2050 target retirement fund
  • TSP--husband: $20k, invested in 2045 target retirement fund
  • Bonds: 2k, mature w/in 5 years
  • Savings account: $36k (v. low interest rate...)

Net worth: $641k ($573k investments and cash)

Liabilities:  Mortgage is only liability--no other debt.  Purchased home for $310k in 11/2018 at a 4.375% interest rate on a 30-year mortgage.  $245k remaining on loan.  We will remain in house as my primary residence for minimum 4 years, and after that we could rent out both units of house for likely ~$3000 total rent, or sell, whichever.
  • P+I: $1238
  • Taxes (escrow): $451
  • Utilities (significant seasonal fluctuation): average monthly $410 including internet.  No alternate providers for any utility in area
  • Total: $2100 average monthly

A main question of this post is if I should refinance to take advantage of lower interest rates.  My original loan provider is quoting $4500 in closing costs to refinance to a 15-year mortgage at 3.125% interest rate or 30-year at 3.375%.  Details of three options are:
  • No change: Current 30-year mortgage at 4.375%, 351 more payments at P+I $1238.23 = $434,618 (would contribute at least 2 extra payments/year)
  • New 15-year mortgage at 3.125%, 180 payments at P+I $1727.59 = $310,966. $4500 in closing costs.
  • New 30-year mortgage at 3.375%, 360 payments at P+I $1096.40 = $394,704. $4500 in closing costs.  (Would contribute at least 2 extra payments/year)

Bonus pressure is that loan officer thinks interest rates will rise 0.125% tomorrow and suggests I lock in loan rate tonight.  Have not had time to research other options yet!

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That's the story as far as I know it!  Please see the beginning of this post for my driving questions precipitating this snapshot of our finances.  I'm very interested in any insight you all may have.  I will be active here over the next week or so and will post details of potential refinancing options as soon as I get them.  Thank you in advance!

ETA: details of refinance offer from original loan provider, which came in 45 seconds after I posted!
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 12:48:28 PM by sbzellison »

ender

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Re: Early 30s, new job, able to retire in 3 years?
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2019, 07:36:25 PM »
I think the answer is "yes, you can retire in 3 years" however the important part that I'm not seeing is what your husband thinks on this plan.

Are there no options to finding a job in the same location as your husband? I'm having a hard time understanding the financial implications of this - presumably you'd save a ton of money if you didn't have to commute to visit/have two homes?

You should be able to roll your TSP into an IRA, which sets up a large number of options such as the roth pipeline  - this blog has a great description of how beneficial this can be - https://www.madfientist.com/how-to-access-retirement-funds-early/

I'd probably just withdraw the HSA to reimburse yourself if I were you. You can track receipts over many years but personally I find this a hassle. Some people keep a list of their HSA eligible reimbursements and maintain that over many years. I find this to be a lot of work.

sbzellison

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I think the answer is "yes, you can retire in 3 years" however the important part that I'm not seeing is what your husband thinks on this plan.

Are there no options to finding a job in the same location as your husband? I'm having a hard time understanding the financial implications of this - presumably you'd save a ton of money if you didn't have to commute to visit/have two homes?

Hah!  Great question and an important missing topic.  My husband loves his job and isn't much interested in retirement much earlier than 20 years (age 52 for him).  He would appreciate the flexibility to retire earlier than 52, or to not work year round, but it's not as important to his mental well-being as he, again, loves his job and would have a lot more flexibility to move to more interesting locations were I not working.

We are both in natural resources, with my husband working for the National Park Service.  I tried very hard for three years to find any sort of even tangentially career-oriented position in my husband's very remote work location while I lived with him, with almost no success.  I love living where he works, but it is basically a company town and there were no open positions for me.  This resulted in a lot of depression, so when an exciting, career-advancing, challenging position came up in our old city we jumped at it.  It is expensive (and emotionally difficult!) to maintain two homes, but it is the best solution for us at the moment.  He gets time off in winters and I may have some option to work remotely a bit in the future--we'll make it work.

I'd probably just withdraw the HSA to reimburse yourself if I were you. You can track receipts over many years but personally I find this a hassle. Some people keep a list of their HSA eligible reimbursements and maintain that over many years. I find this to be a lot of work.

Sorry, question was unclear.  Should I even reimburse myself or not bother since I have the extra cash and am looking for investments anyway?  What are the benefits of reimbursing myself?

insufFIcientfunds

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Before you roll over your TSP, you may consider looking at the TSP withdrawal changes to see about leaving the funds there. It may not work for you; not sure. I'd read up on TSP.Gov about that and vesting.

How much annual leave to you have accrued? If you have three years, you can work hard to strategically accrue your leave, and when you separate, you can get paid out for that. It's a nice chuck of money that comes in ~6 weeks after you leave.

Not sure your grade, but looking at OPMs pay table for AK, 89k would be around a GS-12, step 3 (88,663.) So to calculate a potential leave payout, 3 years X 26 pay periods = 78 Pay periods until separation. I'll assume you accrue 4 hours per pay period, assuming you are under 3 years of service. So the max AL hours you can accrue between now and then is 312...plus what you already have. There are some max carryover rules, but if you were to separate with ~300 hours and your hourly rate is $42ish an hour, you'd be getting around $13k from the man about 6 weeks after separation. Not sure if that helps or not, but without living with your husband, you may want to use some of that leave to spend time with him. 3 years is a long time to only spending weekends together.

Good luck!!

sbzellison

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Re: Early 30s, new job, help me feel confident to FIRE in 3 years!
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2019, 11:26:02 AM »
Not sure your grade, but looking at OPMs pay table for AK, 89k would be around a GS-12, step 3 (88,663.) So to calculate a potential leave payout, 3 years X 26 pay periods = 78 Pay periods until separation. I'll assume you accrue 4 hours per pay period, assuming you are under 3 years of service. So the max AL hours you can accrue between now and then is 312...plus what you already have. There are some max carryover rules, but if you were to separate with ~300 hours and your hourly rate is $42ish an hour, you'd be getting around $13k from the man about 6 weeks after separation. Not sure if that helps or not, but without living with your husband, you may want to use some of that leave to spend time with him. 3 years is a long time to only spending weekends together.

Thanks for your thoughts!  I am actually a GS 11 step 2 but I earn significant overtime.  The 89k is an estimate based on what I have earned so far this year.

AL caps at 240 hours of carryover, at least within my agency.  You're also right that I also use it pretty regularly, so I probably won't count on any payout.

I haven't heard about the TSP withdrawal changes--what is the general idea?  I certainly won't leave before I'm vested!

insufFIcientfunds

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Re: Early 30s, new job, help me feel confident to FIRE in 3 years!
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2019, 10:48:22 AM »
Not sure your grade, but looking at OPMs pay table for AK, 89k would be around a GS-12, step 3 (88,663.) So to calculate a potential leave payout, 3 years X 26 pay periods = 78 Pay periods until separation. I'll assume you accrue 4 hours per pay period, assuming you are under 3 years of service. So the max AL hours you can accrue between now and then is 312...plus what you already have. There are some max carryover rules, but if you were to separate with ~300 hours and your hourly rate is $42ish an hour, you'd be getting around $13k from the man about 6 weeks after separation. Not sure if that helps or not, but without living with your husband, you may want to use some of that leave to spend time with him. 3 years is a long time to only spending weekends together.

Thanks for your thoughts!  I am actually a GS 11 step 2 but I earn significant overtime.  The 89k is an estimate based on what I have earned so far this year.

AL caps at 240 hours of carryover, at least within my agency.  You're also right that I also use it pretty regularly, so I probably won't count on any payout.

I haven't heard about the TSP withdrawal changes--what is the general idea?  I certainly won't leave before I'm vested!

I'm not sure how the change will help and/or if you will find it a benefit or not. But check out: https://www.tsp.gov/PDF/formspubs/tspfs10.pdf

There are some super knowledable people in the threads that might have some better advise than I. @Nords has been really helpful on some military type stuff in some different threads, so maybe he knows of some ways to work with the TSP.

I am a career GS (10 years in) and when I retire, with my leave, is to try and start the year at 240 and retire on 31 Dec. Take little AL that last year, and have a fat cash out as a immediate post retirement "thank you" from Uncle Sam. So for me, that last year I should accure 208 hours (26x8), plus the max carryover of 240 would be around 448 hours. Sold back at $40/hr would today gorss me around $18k. Taxes suck, I get it, but to have that right away does not make me sad. I won't need it for "retirement" per say (if i was counting on it then maybe a second thought should be given to retirement...)

Chances are though I will want to take some days off and it won't be what I have above, but hell with it!

Nords

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... but husband and I now work for the Federal government, opening up the world of the Thrift Savings Plan (TSP), which is similar to the 401k, but which I don't fully understand and is relatively new to me.  One question I have is whether these funds are accessible to us before age 55 (23 years away for me)--a quick Google suggests I may be able to convert it to Roth and put it through the Roth ladder, but I'm not positive I trust that. 

I haven't heard about the TSP withdrawal changes--what is the general idea?  I certainly won't leave before I'm vested!

I'm not sure how the change will help and/or if you will find it a benefit or not. But check out: https://www.tsp.gov/PDF/formspubs/tspfs10.pdf

There are some super knowledable people in the threads that might have some better advise than I. @Nords has been really helpful on some military type stuff in some different threads, so maybe he knows of some ways to work with the TSP.
Thanks, InsufFIcientFunds!

SBZellison, you’d want to stay in the TSP until you vest (at a minimum), but otherwise it’s just like any other 401(k).  The new withdrawal options (starting 15 Sep) give you more flexibility at rolling a portion of your account to an IRA and then converting it to a Roth IRA.  That Mad FIentist link has all the info in it, and the conversion is perfectly legal.  For much more detail (and links to the U.S. tax code) you could read Michael Kitces’ version:
https://www.kitces.com/blog/understanding-the-two-5-year-rules-for-roth-ira-contributions-and-conversions/

If you’re hesitant to tackle this on your own then I’d consult a fee-only CFP who could advise you on your specific tax bill (for the conversion) and help you set up your ladder.

When I left the military (and was allowed to roll over the TSP account under the old rules), my spouse and I spent 16 years on annual incremental Roth IRA conversions.  We did them in smaller amounts up to the limit of each year’s income-tax bracket that we were in. (We know that at age 60 her pension will put us into a higher income-tax bracket.)  Now both of our Roth IRAs are free of tax, we can withdraw the contributions at any time, and we can withdraw each conversion amount after five tax years.  Best of all:  there are no more Required Minimum Distributions to worry about.

If you’re concerned about Roth IRA conversions then you could also contribute more to your taxable accounts and draw down those until you meet the withdrawal conditions of a Roth IRA conversion.  However I’d still contribute to your TSP now to receive at least the full federal government agency/matching contributions. 

sbzellison

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SBZellison, you’d want to stay in the TSP until you vest (at a minimum), but otherwise it’s just like any other 401(k).  The new withdrawal options (starting 15 Sep) give you more flexibility at rolling a portion of your account to an IRA and then converting it to a Roth IRA.  That Mad FIentist link has all the info in it, and the conversion is perfectly legal.  For much more detail (and links to the U.S. tax code) you could read Michael Kitces’ version:
https://www.kitces.com/blog/understanding-the-two-5-year-rules-for-roth-ira-contributions-and-conversions/

Great, thank you for the insight!  I'm glad to know this is an option.  Do you have any thoughts on whether I should be going traditional TSP or Roth TSP?  We are in the 22% tax bracket and I believe that most of the forum recommends traditional for that...might be a good option since we're not maxing our 38k of contributions...

Could you explain the required minimum distribution?  And why it seems to be such a PITA?

Also, what are your thoughts on the overall picture--do you think this will be enough to retire on as outlined in question 1?

sbzellison

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Re: Early 30s, new job, help me feel confident to FIRE in 3 years!
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2019, 10:19:32 PM »
I am a career GS (10 years in) and when I retire, with my leave, is to try and start the year at 240 and retire on 31 Dec. Take little AL that last year, and have a fat cash out as a immediate post retirement "thank you" from Uncle Sam. So for me, that last year I should accure 208 hours (26x8), plus the max carryover of 240 would be around 448 hours. Sold back at $40/hr would today gorss me around $18k. Taxes suck, I get it, but to have that right away does not make me sad. I won't need it for "retirement" per say (if i was counting on it then maybe a second thought should be given to retirement...)

Chances are though I will want to take some days off and it won't be what I have above, but hell with it!

Seems like a good strategy!  So far I am trying to ease in to the idea of early retirement by giving myself breaks when I have an inkling that I'd like one.  Eg, just because 60 hours of overtime this pay period is on the table, doesn't mean I have to take it if the alternative is an extra weekend of tropical vacation (true scenario).  Which means I'll probably have a pretty low leave balance throughout my short career...  Luckily, I'm at least in that 6 hour leave category, which is very nice!

What are your thoughts on traditional vs roth TSP for my situation?

MDM

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Do you have any thoughts on whether I should be going traditional TSP or Roth TSP?  We are in the 22% tax bracket and I believe that most of the forum recommends traditional for that...might be a good option since we're not maxing our 38k of contributions...
That depends on what you expect for your marginal tax rate in retirement.  See that link for details - what do you expect?

Quote
Could you explain the required minimum distribution?  And why it seems to be such a PITA?
It can be a PITA simply because it is required, not optional, so even if you don't want to withdraw....  See What are Required Minimum Distributions?

Quote
Also, what are your thoughts on the overall picture--do you think this will be enough to retire on as outlined in question 1?
What do you get using the simple "Time to FI" calculation in the case study spreadsheet, and/or more sophisticated tools such as those described in Best and/or Recommended Retirement Calculator - Bogleheads.org?

For general thoughts, see Investment Order.

Nords

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Re: Early 30s, new job, FIRE ready in 3 years? Second set of eyes would be great!
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2019, 01:49:40 AM »
First, what MDM says.  You’re getting good advice.

We are in the 22% tax bracket and I believe that most of the forum recommends traditional for that...might be a good option since we're not maxing our 38k of contributions...
Technically the forum members recommend paying as little taxes as possible. 

Choosing between the traditional TSP and the Roth TSP means that you have to predict your future income-tax bracket.  You could defer taxes in the traditional TSP (and pay them later with RMDs) or you could pay taxes now in the Roth TSP (and never face taxes again with that account).  The Roth TSP does have RMDs, but you can avoid that with a tax-free rollover of the Roth TSP to a Roth IRA.

A third option is deferring taxes in the traditional TSP and then converting to a Roth IRA when you’re in a lower income-tax bracket.  For example you’re in the 22% bracket today, but when you stop working for a paycheck then you might drop into a lower bracket... and each year you’d be able to convert a few thousand dollars of traditional TSP to a Roth IRA.  You’d pay taxes in that lower bracket or, at worst, in the 22% bracket. 

Whether you choose the traditional TSP or the Roth TSP, or a combination of the two, I’d try to maximize your contributions.  You get tax-deferred or tax-free compounding in some of the world’s largest index funds with some of the world’s lowest expense ratios.  You also get a higher contribution limit than an IRA, and you get some legal/litigation protection by putting your savings in a retirement account (instead of a taxable account).  In addition, should you someday decide to buy an annuity with your TSP account, the federal govt gets a pretty good price on single-premium immediate annuities.

Could you explain the required minimum distribution?  And why it seems to be such a PITA?
RMDs are a pain because you have to take them per the IRS tables.  Distributions from a traditional TSP (or 401(k), or IRA) are optional from ages 59.5 - 70.5.  (You can withdraw from them before age 59.5 but you’d have to either pay a penalty [and possibly some taxes] or do a Roth IRA conversion ladder.)  After age 70.5 you have to take RMDs (annual percentages from the IRS actuarial tables) and you have to pay income tax on the RMDs at the personal income-tax rate.

The amount of the RMD (and the rest of your taxable investment income or pensions) might bump you into a higher income-tax bracket, which means you deferred income taxes at 22% yet ended up paying more later. 

The amount of the RMD also might subject your Social Security to taxation, and might subject your Medicare premiums to a higher amount through their IRMAA requirements.

Then there’s the issue of making sure that you take the annual RMDs and calculate them correctly (or pay penalties).  Fortunately most of the investment companies will now helpfully calculate your RMDs for you and even put the withdrawal in autopilot.

Also, what are your thoughts on the overall picture--do you think this will be enough to retire on as outlined in question 1?
You have approximately $600K in assets to support an initial 4% Safe Withdrawal Rate of $24K/year.  Your spending is considerably in excess of that, so the answer is “Not yet”. 

Once your assets amount to 25x your annual spending, you’ll be FI and your 4% SWR withdrawals will almost certainly last for at least 30 years.  There are lots of flaws and omissions in the 4% SWR computer simulations, but you’ll handle the glitches through variable spending and (for Americans with enough work credits) Social Security.

insufFIcientfunds

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Re: Early 30s, new job, FIRE ready in 3 years? Second set of eyes would be great!
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2019, 10:54:37 AM »
First, what MDM says.  You’re getting good advice.

We are in the 22% tax bracket and I believe that most of the forum recommends traditional for that...might be a good option since we're not maxing our 38k of contributions...
Technically the forum members recommend paying as little taxes as possible. 

Choosing between the traditional TSP and the Roth TSP means that you have to predict your future income-tax bracket.  You could defer taxes in the traditional TSP (and pay them later with RMDs) or you could pay taxes now in the Roth TSP (and never face taxes again with that account).  The Roth TSP does have RMDs, but you can avoid that with a tax-free rollover of the Roth TSP to a Roth IRA.

A third option is deferring taxes in the traditional TSP and then converting to a Roth IRA when you’re in a lower income-tax bracket.  For example you’re in the 22% bracket today, but when you stop working for a paycheck then you might drop into a lower bracket... and each year you’d be able to convert a few thousand dollars of traditional TSP to a Roth IRA.  You’d pay taxes in that lower bracket or, at worst, in the 22% bracket. 

Whether you choose the traditional TSP or the Roth TSP, or a combination of the two, I’d try to maximize your contributions.  You get tax-deferred or tax-free compounding in some of the world’s largest index funds with some of the world’s lowest expense ratios.  You also get a higher contribution limit than an IRA, and you get some legal/litigation protection by putting your savings in a retirement account (instead of a taxable account).  In addition, should you someday decide to buy an annuity with your TSP account, the federal govt gets a pretty good price on single-premium immediate annuities.

Could you explain the required minimum distribution?  And why it seems to be such a PITA?
RMDs are a pain because you have to take them per the IRS tables.  Distributions from a traditional TSP (or 401(k), or IRA) are optional from ages 59.5 - 70.5.  (You can withdraw from them before age 59.5 but you’d have to either pay a penalty [and possibly some taxes] or do a Roth IRA conversion ladder.)  After age 70.5 you have to take RMDs (annual percentages from the IRS actuarial tables) and you have to pay income tax on the RMDs at the personal income-tax rate.

The amount of the RMD (and the rest of your taxable investment income or pensions) might bump you into a higher income-tax bracket, which means you deferred income taxes at 22% yet ended up paying more later. 

The amount of the RMD also might subject your Social Security to taxation, and might subject your Medicare premiums to a higher amount through their IRMAA requirements.

Then there’s the issue of making sure that you take the annual RMDs and calculate them correctly (or pay penalties).  Fortunately most of the investment companies will now helpfully calculate your RMDs for you and even put the withdrawal in autopilot.

Also, what are your thoughts on the overall picture--do you think this will be enough to retire on as outlined in question 1?
You have approximately $600K in assets to support an initial 4% Safe Withdrawal Rate of $24K/year.  Your spending is considerably in excess of that, so the answer is “Not yet”. 

Once your assets amount to 25x your annual spending, you’ll be FI and your 4% SWR withdrawals will almost certainly last for at least 30 years.  There are lots of flaws and omissions in the 4% SWR computer simulations, but you’ll handle the glitches through variable spending and (for Americans with enough work credits) Social Security.

Nords - You are better than literally anyone at OPM I've attempted to talk too. Is there a TSP AA that you could recommend for OP based on her situation?


Nords

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Re: Early 30s, new job, FIRE ready in 3 years? Second set of eyes would be great!
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2019, 12:44:53 PM »
Nords - You are better than literally anyone at OPM I've attempted to talk too. Is there a TSP AA that you could recommend for OP based on her situation?
Thanks!  I’ve had some practice at this.

The conventional wisdom for the TSP is either the longest-dated L fund (L2050 until next year) or Dave Ramsey’s recommended split of 60/20/20 in the C, S, and I funds. 

The issue with the latter AA is that it’s pretty volatile, and people either have to ignore it for most of the year or be comfortable sleeping at night.