Author Topic: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years  (Read 5410 times)

PassMMM

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Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« on: April 16, 2018, 12:59:30 PM »
Topic Title: Case Study - I'm 25, new lawyer, my career is odd in that I'm starting (before tax) at $195k, which will end up at about $350k by my 5th year (large firm, lockstep pay). I don't see a world in which I can do these hours for more than 5 years, so at that point I'l likely switch to government or in house at likely around $100k until FI/RE or some part-time situation.

My question is if this weird path warrants any significant changes to the normal MMM plan of saving as much as possible and investing in a vanguard fund. Thanks!

Life Situation: IRS filing status - single with a long time SO, probably kids within 5 years, work/live in NYC but hoping to return to Long Island to raise a future family.

Gross Salary/Wages: 195k

Individual amounts of each Pre-tax deductions 401k (have to wait a bit longer bc of my job being new), HSA (still on dad's insurance until the end of 2018 - thanks Obama), IRA (make too much, but I put $15k from summer jobs in college in a Roth before I finished law school)


Taxes: Federal, state/local, and FICA.  These should be consistent with your AGI and Life Situation.  For non-U.S. posters, weíll have to take your word for these. Living in NYC I get about 5500/month taken out in taxes, netting me about $9100/mo

Current expenses (monthly):
Rent - $1490 (but puts me in a 15min commute)
Food - $100
Going out - $700 (restaurants, bars, events, etc)
Travel - $170 (subway metrocard + LIRR visiting family twice a month)
Dry cleaning - $30
Subscriptions - $15
Internet - $15
Utilities - $35
Phone - $65 (my portion of split family plan)
Gifts - $50
Clothes - $25
Other - $200

Total - $2900

Assets:
Roth IRA - 15k
3-year CD - 15k
2-year CD - 2.5k
Savings Account - 14k
Checking account - 8k

Liabilities: $60k private family loan over 7 years of school (mostly taken care of via scholarships)

Specific Question(s): Should the sort of backwards expected income over 10 years change my plans compared to alot of the typical MMM advice? Thank you!
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 02:09:00 PM by PassMMM »

jlcnuke

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2018, 01:34:53 PM »
My question is if this weird path warrants any significant changes to the normal MMM plan of saving as much as possible and investing in a vanguard fund. Thanks!

The answer is "nope". In fact, your situation works in your favor as long as you don't let the income cause lifestyle inflation thanks to the magic of compounding, and with your higher income early, you get a jump-start on that compounding whereas most people start small and work their way up. Save as much as possible and you'll be well on your way to FI.   You're showing expenses of $2,895/month and a take-home pay of $9,100/month (though I'm quite sure there is spending likely not accounted for or will be anyway). If you can keep your expenses that low (or close to it) and save $6k/month for 5 years you'll be well on your way to FI by the time you downshift into a lower paying position (after only 5 years you'd likely be pushing $4-500k, enough to support up to 2/3rds of your spending already, another 5-6 years and you could support your current spending levels without going to work at all).
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PassMMM

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2018, 02:04:22 PM »
Thanks for the reply! I definitely expect spending to go up in a few years with just general life stuff - marriage, house, etc. but I'm hoping to avoid all the "keeping up with the Jonses" nonsense - never much for $15 drinks and huge car payments anyway. Ideally, my savings will only go up since my salary will jump pretty significantly every year I manage to keep this job.

Ben Kurtz

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2018, 02:53:35 PM »
The typical advice applies even stronger.

Basically, you are pre-committing to a FI/RE plan far more openly and explicitly that most people do. Get in, save 75% of your income, get done, get out. Consider your jump out of BigLaw to be equivalent to a regular person quitting a full time job and dropping down to casual part time work.

Max out your deductible 401k, max out your HSA, and max out the backdoor Roth IRA strategy. Stick that all in an 80/20 stock/bond asset allocation (or even more aggressive) and forget about it. If you are seriously planning on having kids you should think about opening up a 529 college savings account now -- name yourself as beneficiary, you can always amend that later (or name the kid after yourself) -- just to get the NYS income tax deduction on $5,000 of yearly contributions (or whatever the limit is these days).

If you want to settle on Long Island with a ~$100,000 income as your step-down job after five years, you should plan ahead for what kind of house and down payment you'll need. That's a fairly high cost of living area; a $100,000 family income doesn't go very far in Nassau County (it goes a bit further in Suffolk). Open up a regular Vanguard account and stick $2,500 per month into an intermediate-term tax free muni fund. By the end of 5 years you'll have  a respectable down payment in there.

Word of advice: Set every last possible thing, including investments, on autopilot. You will not have the time or energy to think about "life admin" tasks when you are brutalized with some of the hours you will be made to pull in a NYC BigLaw firm.
 
You should check your tax withholding; NYS and NYC taxes are punitive, but even so you may be overwithholding a bit.

A fairly reasonable goal would be to have a net worth of $500,000 by the time you pull the rip cord on your law firm job. To do that you will have to be very careful about lifestyle inflation.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 02:55:19 PM by Ben Kurtz »

PassMMM

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2018, 03:39:15 PM »
Thanks for some excellent advice, Ben. It's great to see some people familiar with biglaw here. I wasn't sure if any were really part of this FI/RE world. I've been meaning to get on top of opening a vanguard account, as you mentioned. I still need to figure out this whole backdoor IRA thing and how it compares to a regular 401k (my firm does not match at all). I was initially concerned about locking a high portion of my money up until 55 (or pay a penalty), but the consensus seems to be that it's worth it.

Do you have any tips for autopiloting things? I was planning on just direct depositing what's left after pretax 401k contributions into my high interest SA and then trying to set up automatic investments when I set up my vanguard. Any apps/services that are more efficient?

Side note- genuinely laughed when I read "or name the kid after yourself"

frugal_c

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2018, 03:53:22 PM »
I would just add to make sure you spoil your self a little bit.  <REVERSE FACE PUNCH>   Seriously, you are saving so much that the main thing is that you actually finish the 5 years.   You seem to have chosen a location close to your job and spend a healthy amount eating out, that is smart.   If you aren't already, make sure you exercise, it is easy to neglect but has a huge impact on dealing with stress and actually increases your energy levels once you are in the routine.

MDM

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2018, 06:42:29 PM »
I still need to figure out this whole backdoor IRA thing and how it compares to a regular 401k (my firm does not match at all). I was initially concerned about locking a high portion of my money up until 55 (or pay a penalty), but the consensus seems to be that it's worth it.
See Investment Order and links therein, and the 'Basic Terms' tab of the case study spreadsheet.

Do you parents have a High Deductible Health Plan that covers you, and that is your only medical coverage?  If so, because you are covered by one and not their dependent, you may establish your own HSA, independent from whatever your parents choose to do, and contribute the family maximum.

Padonak

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2018, 06:52:55 PM »
How to you manage to pay so little for rent? <1.5K per month for a place with 15 min commute to a good part of Manhattan. Is it a separate apartment or a room?

MrUpwardlyMobile

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2018, 07:06:13 PM »
5 years is a long time.  Youíre planning on misery until youíre 30? I bring it up because you may find it difficult to keep a significant other happy when you work 6-7 days a week for 10-12 hours per day.  If you havenít met someone, you may find it difficult to socialize...

I bring it up because NYC law practice is going to have a toll on your life.  Itís not as easily quantified as the finances.  I reiterate that 5 years is a long time in big law.  Just...keep your eyes open for an in-house role or small firm role within 3 years. 
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PassMMM

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2018, 07:09:49 PM »
How to you manage to pay so little for rent? <1.5K per month for a place with 15 min commute to a good part of Manhattan. Is it a separate apartment or a room?

I rent a 3BR/2Ba with 2 friends from law school and chose to take the smallest room for reduced rent. I'm right by a Q stop UES. Place is nice enough, not a luxury doorman building or anything.

PassMMM

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2018, 07:12:29 PM »
5 years is a long time.  Youíre planning on misery until youíre 30? I bring it up because you may find it difficult to keep a significant other happy when you work 6-7 days a week for 10-12 hours per day.  If you havenít met someone, you may find it difficult to socialize...

I bring it up because NYC law practice is going to have a toll on your life.  Itís not as easily quantified as the finances.  I reiterate that 5 years is a long time in big law.  Just...keep your eyes open for an in-house role or small firm role within 3 years.

Definitely a good point that I've thought about. The way I see it, I ought to stay at least 3 because that's when I begin to become marketable for laterals or really good government or in house opportunities. Honestly, the hours are a lot and it's only been 6 months, but it's been pretty manageable so far. Of course, if it ends up being 3 years, that would put me on a very different trajectory as far as FI/RE, but I haven't ruled it out.

PassMMM

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2018, 07:15:02 PM »
I still need to figure out this whole backdoor IRA thing and how it compares to a regular 401k (my firm does not match at all). I was initially concerned about locking a high portion of my money up until 55 (or pay a penalty), but the consensus seems to be that it's worth it.
See Investment Order and links therein, and the 'Basic Terms' tab of the case study spreadsheet.

Do you parents have a High Deductible Health Plan that covers you, and that is your only medical coverage?  If so, because you are covered by one and not their dependent, you may establish your own HSA, independent from whatever your parents choose to do, and contribute the family maximum.

My father was a state employee and I'm covered under his insurance until the end of the year I turn 26. I'm not sure what implications that has, so I've decided to just hold off on any health contributions until that point since it's less than a year away anyway.

MDM

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2018, 09:11:04 PM »
I still need to figure out this whole backdoor IRA thing and how it compares to a regular 401k (my firm does not match at all). I was initially concerned about locking a high portion of my money up until 55 (or pay a penalty), but the consensus seems to be that it's worth it.
See Investment Order and links therein, and the 'Basic Terms' tab of the case study spreadsheet.

Do you parents have a High Deductible Health Plan that covers you, and that is your only medical coverage?  If so, because you are covered by one and not their dependent, you may establish your own HSA, independent from whatever your parents choose to do, and contribute the family maximum.

My father was a state employee and I'm covered under his insurance until the end of the year I turn 26. I'm not sure what implications that has, so I've decided to just hold off on any health contributions until that point since it's less than a year away anyway.
The implication is that if his insurance is an HDHP you can use the situation to your advantage now.

Ben Kurtz

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2018, 09:09:34 AM »
Do you have any tips for autopiloting things? I was planning on just direct depositing what's left after pretax 401k contributions into my high interest SA and then trying to set up automatic investments when I set up my vanguard. Any apps/services that are more efficient?

Once you've set up your Vanguard account you can just use their search bar to get you to the right page to set up automatic transactions. Enter your bank account details and you are done, just like setting up AutoPay on a credit card. Same for the NY529 college savings plan and most other bills and investment accounts.

There are various apps like Mint which you can use to aggregate your financial data and track your spending and other such things. Other folks here are more into that than I am; you can read through some of the threads here and get a sense for what is out there.

ysette9

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2018, 01:40:40 PM »
I can’t believe anyone hasn’t called you out on the $700/ month “going out” spending. That adds up pretty quickly and is money that could be put to work buying your freedom. Otherwise your spending and savings are doing really well. Can you work on getting that down? It is true that life gets complex and spending goes up when you add in things like spouse, kids, mortgage, etc. Right now is your golden moment to invest as much as you possibly can and live as frugally you can for as long as possible.

I am so grateful that I saved when I started out my career and I look back and only wish that I could have known about FIRE then to give me the impetus to save even more. Your situation is a bit inverse from most people in that to expect to earn more initially now and less later; this means it is that much more important to save as much you can now.
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elliha

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2018, 04:36:19 AM »
I canít believe anyone hasnít called you out on the $700/ month ďgoing outĒ spending. That adds up pretty quickly and is money that could be put to work buying your freedom. Otherwise your spending and savings are doing really well. Can you work on getting that down? It is true that life gets complex and spending goes up when you add in things like spouse, kids, mortgage, etc. Right now is your golden moment to invest as much as you possibly can and live as frugally you can for as long as possible.

It is high but he also works very long hours and it might be what makes his world manageable at the moment. I think that if he uses his money wisely and eats decent food compared to fast food I think it is more understandable and he clearly can afford to eat out a lot. I am sure he can cut down some and not experience negative consequences but given how much he already saves this is perhaps not priority number 1. With that said, 100 dollars less in this field is probably doable without even noticing that much.

Ben Kurtz

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2018, 05:07:14 AM »
I canít believe anyone hasnít called you out on the $700/ month ďgoing outĒ spending. That adds up pretty quickly and is money that could be put to work buying your freedom. Otherwise your spending and savings are doing really well. Can you work on getting that down? It is true that life gets complex and spending goes up when you add in things like spouse, kids, mortgage, etc. Right now is your golden moment to invest as much as you possibly can and live as frugally you can for as long as possible.

It is high but he also works very long hours and it might be what makes his world manageable at the moment. I think that if he uses his money wisely and eats decent food compared to fast food I think it is more understandable and he clearly can afford to eat out a lot. I am sure he can cut down some and not experience negative consequences but given how much he already saves this is perhaps not priority number 1. With that said, 100 dollars less in this field is probably doable without even noticing that much.

I'll second that. Working in a high-octane setting myself, I know that BigLaw associates tend to get extraordinarily little down time with family and friends. Many of the OP's friends and associates will not be on board the frugality train, and with little time to make new friends he'll basically exclude himself from  all socialization if he does not compromise and go out and overspend from time to time at the fancy restaurants and nightclubs in the big city. There is inevitably room for improvement (now that spring is in the air try to take the lead and organize a hike in a forest park that can easily be reached by MetroNorth, rather than a boozy brunch on a rare free Sunday), but given the earning and saving capacity that such a job brings, it is far more important to the OP's long-term financial health to do what it takes to serve the full five years in that position, rather than to squeeze the last $500 per month of savings out of his budget but burn out 18 months early due to stress and social isolation.

This reasoning can quickly become a license to do all sorts of frivolous things if it is not very carefully hemmed in. The key is moderation. With this kind of salary and lifestyle the best approach is to plan out a household budget that has an automatic 50%+ savings rate and then a small well-defined pot of "silly money" which can be spent each month on non-frugal pointless things. Not exactly in the ethos of the blog, and not a permanent way of life that I advocate (hedonic treadmill and all that), but an acceptable way to make the super-high-earning years bearable.

Once the rip cord is pulled there will have to be bit of a reset, where these sorts of habits are re-evaluated and changed in light of increased free time but decreased earnings.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 05:09:40 AM by Ben Kurtz »

bandalbumsong

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2018, 05:55:59 AM »
My advice is to build sustainable systems to live healthily, even if it costs a little more money. The ability to eke out an extra six months in BigLaw may mean an extra $100k, so it's worth it to stick it out as long as you can. Eating well and frequent exercise help make it so that four years in you don't feel like your job is physically killing you.

One example that comes to mind: there are food delivery services out here (Boston-area) where you can get 11-12 lunches/dinners worth of organic, vegetable-heavy, healthy, pre-made dishes delivered to you for ~$95/week. If you'd normally spend $200 on similarly healthy groceries, that's around a $200 premium per month, or $12k over a five year career. But you will get that meal prep time back and have less cognitive overhead going into personal life that can instead go into billables. You can always go back to mostly home-cooked meals when you off-ramp to in-house or government, but while in the grind the wearing down of time comes faster than the wearing down due to money.

ysette9

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2018, 09:56:41 AM »
Living A FI is a wonderful blog I love to go back to, though he doesn’t post much anymore. In his series of posts about his career he talks about how in his first years on the job he was spending money going out for drinks and whatnot with coworkers. He eventually cut that way back as he found it increased his stress by essentially prolonging the workday and cost his à toi of money that he could instead save. He also found he felt better physically and mentally when he cut way back on the alcohol consumption. OP’s situation could well be different, but it is a good thing to keep in mind that this spending and those activities may not be a net positive, or at least should be scrutinized to make sure it is money well spent.

https://livingafi.com/2014/06/13/the-job-experience-tech-support-year-1/
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PassMMM

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2018, 04:53:40 PM »
I canít believe anyone hasnít called you out on the $700/ month ďgoing outĒ spending. That adds up pretty quickly and is money that could be put to work buying your freedom. Otherwise your spending and savings are doing really well. Can you work on getting that down? It is true that life gets complex and spending goes up when you add in things like spouse, kids, mortgage, etc. Right now is your golden moment to invest as much as you possibly can and live as frugally you can for as long as possible.

It is high but he also works very long hours and it might be what makes his world manageable at the moment. I think that if he uses his money wisely and eats decent food compared to fast food I think it is more understandable and he clearly can afford to eat out a lot. I am sure he can cut down some and not experience negative consequences but given how much he already saves this is perhaps not priority number 1. With that said, 100 dollars less in this field is probably doable without even noticing that much.

I'll second that. Working in a high-octane setting myself, I know that BigLaw associates tend to get extraordinarily little down time with family and friends. Many of the OP's friends and associates will not be on board the frugality train, and with little time to make new friends he'll basically exclude himself from  all socialization if he does not compromise and go out and overspend from time to time at the fancy restaurants and nightclubs in the big city. There is inevitably room for improvement (now that spring is in the air try to take the lead and organize a hike in a forest park that can easily be reached by MetroNorth, rather than a boozy brunch on a rare free Sunday), but given the earning and saving capacity that such a job brings, it is far more important to the OP's long-term financial health to do what it takes to serve the full five years in that position, rather than to squeeze the last $500 per month of savings out of his budget but burn out 18 months early due to stress and social isolation.

This reasoning can quickly become a license to do all sorts of frivolous things if it is not very carefully hemmed in. The key is moderation. With this kind of salary and lifestyle the best approach is to plan out a household budget that has an automatic 50%+ savings rate and then a small well-defined pot of "silly money" which can be spent each month on non-frugal pointless things. Not exactly in the ethos of the blog, and not a permanent way of life that I advocate (hedonic treadmill and all that), but an acceptable way to make the super-high-earning years bearable.

Once the rip cord is pulled there will have to be bit of a reset, where these sorts of habits are re-evaluated and changed in light of increased free time but decreased earnings.

These are all valid points. I definitely try to stay mindful with little things - ordering a $6 beer instead of a $20 cocktail, but NYC bars are outrageous in price. The 700 also includes my weekend meals for the most part, since I generally don't go food shopping. Still, there's clearly room for improvement. Thanks for commenting.

sui generis

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2018, 05:02:22 PM »
Hello from a fellow BigLaw Associate.  So you're a first year, about 9 months in?  How are you liking it so far?  I assume 5 years seems reasonable at present?  9 months in I was super miserable and might not have thought 5 years was do-able.  I adjusted and it was better for a while.  So hopefully you can pull it off. 

But, if you don't, downshifting earlier to in-house/gov etc. where the pay is lower but you might appreciate/enjoy life more NOW more while you wait a couple years longer to FIRE might still be a better decision.  In the end, my advice would be to keep an open mind.  Life can change so much in a year, much less 5.  Maybe model both scenarios concurrently (the one you have, then leaving BigLaw at 3 years and working longer) so you can keep your attitude flexible and stay open to interesting opportunities that may come along. 
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 05:06:11 PM by sui generis »

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2018, 10:43:27 AM »
The cFIREsim interface can be a little daunting and took some getting used to for me at least. Reach out here if you have questions on the inputs. I believe they have finally put together a user guide to help also. Once you get past the learning curve I think you’ll agree with me that it is probably the most powerful and versatile calculator out there.
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EmFrugal

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2018, 10:49:45 AM »
I don't have a ton of additions here, but I just wanted to say that you have a great plan in place. My husband did exactly this... Started at big law in NYC knowing he wanted to go into the federal government. He worked in NYC at a firm for two years, our first daughter was born, then we left for D.C. He then worked a few more years at a different big firm, figured out his specialization, networked, and landed a job with the federal government.

From a spouse's perspective it was the best possible move to get his life back, have time for our now family of five, and have a stimulating career he enjoys. Those big law years were hell for both of us... He was MIA most of the time and the anxiety he experienced was intense. He essentially lost his personality. But he did exercise consistently and eat well. And once he left big law his personality came back :)

We saved like crazy those first few years building up a downpayment for a house, a vanguard fund, 401ks and 529's for our kids. The hit to the salary was hard when he went to the government, especially in a HCOL area like the affluent DC suburbs, but as long as you don't buy too much house and track spending, it is definitely doable.

Being a mostly single-income household right now on a government salary, we are definitely toward the lower half of the income bracket in our area, but it has all turned out amazingly well. We chose a townhome instead of a house to get into a good school district for example. The townhome community is so nice and has tons of playmates for our kids. Plus lots of cool adults who love socializing regularly. It's basically a giant party of kids/adults outside on warm evenings. And we only own one vehicle since mass transit is available for my husband's commute.

With a few tricks like this on the big purchases and lots of upfront saving, you'll be in a great spot. And even now with what we jokingly call his semi-retirement, we manage to save 30+% a year. Plus the added benefit of a pension is nice!

Good luck to you and don't forget to take care of yourself during those first five years.

BookLoverL

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2018, 02:46:59 AM »
FWIW, 5 years is the time to retirement at a typical ERE savings percentage, which is far more doable with a high income, but you might not want to go that frugal, I guess.

(I accidentally posted this on the wrong thread first, because I'm apparently an idiot...)
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PassMMM

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2018, 08:10:19 AM »
Hello from a fellow BigLaw Associate.  So you're a first year, about 9 months in?  How are you liking it so far?  I assume 5 years seems reasonable at present?  9 months in I was super miserable and might not have thought 5 years was do-able.  I adjusted and it was better for a while.  So hopefully you can pull it off. 

But, if you don't, downshifting earlier to in-house/gov etc. where the pay is lower but you might appreciate/enjoy life more NOW more while you wait a couple years longer to FIRE might still be a better decision.  In the end, my advice would be to keep an open mind.  Life can change so much in a year, much less 5.  Maybe model both scenarios concurrently (the one you have, then leaving BigLaw at 3 years and working longer) so you can keep your attitude flexible and stay open to interesting opportunities that may come along.

Yes, I'm 7 months in but while there's been some periods of crazy hours I actually think it's been pretty reasonable so far. The people have been very nice, generally respectful of my time, and it seems like when I'm working late or on weekends, it's been on big group projects. Honestly, if they think I'm doing a good job I don't think 5 years is unrealistic but obviously that could change. Definitely going to hold out until 3 years minimum, but 5 would be very helpful for FI because of how much higher the salary is.

PassMMM

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2018, 08:14:52 AM »
I don't have a ton of additions here, but I just wanted to say that you have a great plan in place. My husband did exactly this... Started at big law in NYC knowing he wanted to go into the federal government. He worked in NYC at a firm for two years, our first daughter was born, then we left for D.C. He then worked a few more years at a different big firm, figured out his specialization, networked, and landed a job with the federal government.

From a spouse's perspective it was the best possible move to get his life back, have time for our now family of five, and have a stimulating career he enjoys. Those big law years were hell for both of us... He was MIA most of the time and the anxiety he experienced was intense. He essentially lost his personality. But he did exercise consistently and eat well. And once he left big law his personality came back :)

We saved like crazy those first few years building up a downpayment for a house, a vanguard fund, 401ks and 529's for our kids. The hit to the salary was hard when he went to the government, especially in a HCOL area like the affluent DC suburbs, but as long as you don't buy too much house and track spending, it is definitely doable.

Being a mostly single-income household right now on a government salary, we are definitely toward the lower half of the income bracket in our area, but it has all turned out amazingly well. We chose a townhome instead of a house to get into a good school district for example. The townhome community is so nice and has tons of playmates for our kids. Plus lots of cool adults who love socializing regularly. It's basically a giant party of kids/adults outside on warm evenings. And we only own one vehicle since mass transit is available for my husband's commute.

With a few tricks like this on the big purchases and lots of upfront saving, you'll be in a great spot. And even now with what we jokingly call his semi-retirement, we manage to save 30+% a year. Plus the added benefit of a pension is nice!

Good luck to you and don't forget to take care of yourself during those first five years.

This is a great story! Very inspiring to hear when others have done it and it work out. Congrats to you and your husband. I think biglaw is just such a weird opportunity to collect all this cash for a few years and from my math if you can be a little disciplined about spending, it could really set you up for life. My ideal landing spot after biglaw would also be the federal government, so it's nice to hear how much your husband is enjoying it compared to firm life.

PassMMM

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2018, 08:16:00 AM »
The cFIREsim interface can be a little daunting and took some getting used to for me at least. Reach out here if you have questions on the inputs. I believe they have finally put together a user guide to help also. Once you get past the learning curve I think youíll agree with me that it is probably the most powerful and versatile calculator out there.

I'll have to play around with this and get back to you. Looks cool though!

PassMMM

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2018, 08:19:29 AM »
FWIW, 5 years is the time to retirement at a typical ERE savings percentage, which is far more doable with a high income, but you might not want to go that frugal, I guess.

(I accidentally posted this on the wrong thread first, because I'm apparently an idiot...)

If I could get my yearly spending low, this is for sure true. I just think that for the life I'm going for down the road, it really isn't that feasible. I love MMM's story but $20k/year barely pays the property tax on Long Island where my entire family lives. Will definitely be a great start though.

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2018, 12:17:45 PM »
FWIW, 5 years is the time to retirement at a typical ERE savings percentage, which is far more doable with a high income, but you might not want to go that frugal, I guess.

(I accidentally posted this on the wrong thread first, because I'm apparently an idiot...)

If I could get my yearly spending low, this is for sure true. I just think that for the life I'm going for down the road, it really isn't that feasible. I love MMM's story but $20k/year barely pays the property tax on Long Island where my entire family lives. Will definitely be a great start though.

Long Island can be what you make of it. I live out in Suffolk and as a renter I live very comfortably on $24k/yr (my half of DINK spending).

MustacheAnxiety

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2018, 08:29:22 AM »
A few thoughts after having put in 5 years of big law:
1. Make a real effort to love your job.  These are likely the most complex, interesting, and high value matters you will ever work on. And if you love your job excellent work product will be easier.
2. Big law gives you so many free fancy lunches and drinks, take advantage of them, network, and be so overindulged that spending $700 a month "going out" is the last thing you want to do.  Look into how your firm reimburses for "client development" if you have friends that are in house or in finance.  Also if you are putting in long hours clients or the firm often foot the bill for dinner.
3. I can't say enough good things about having a spouse that shares your values, financial and otherwise, that said big law + spouse is tough. I went through a very hectic three year stretch of trials every 9-12 months.  Of the three of us working closest together there were two divorces shortly after.  On the plus side you are single and your stock as a dude with a good job will only rise between now and 30.  Try to have a life, but don't be in a rush for romance.
4. Aim for more than 100K at the next gig. It will not be as easy as you are hoping (unless maybe it is government).
5. Pay off your loans quickly.  Even/especially if they are 0% interest.  It is just not worth potentially family bitterness and judgment. 
6. Max out all available retirement funding options.  100% of the 401(k) even with no match. Backdoor roth IRA just means funding your IRA (which has limits for tax deductibility but not contributions) and rolling the money over to a roth IRA (which has contribution limits but not rollover limits) immediately. Once your big law job ends you will likely want to get out of their mediocre 401k and into a Vanguard or Fidelity IRA, which means you will no longer be able to do a backdoor roth.  I promise there will be plenty of savings leftover to get to old man retirement.

PassMMM

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2018, 02:56:54 PM »
A few thoughts after having put in 5 years of big law:
1. Make a real effort to love your job.  These are likely the most complex, interesting, and high value matters you will ever work on. And if you love your job excellent work product will be easier.
2. Big law gives you so many free fancy lunches and drinks, take advantage of them, network, and be so overindulged that spending $700 a month "going out" is the last thing you want to do.  Look into how your firm reimburses for "client development" if you have friends that are in house or in finance.  Also if you are putting in long hours clients or the firm often foot the bill for dinner.
3. I can't say enough good things about having a spouse that shares your values, financial and otherwise, that said big law + spouse is tough. I went through a very hectic three year stretch of trials every 9-12 months.  Of the three of us working closest together there were two divorces shortly after.  On the plus side you are single and your stock as a dude with a good job will only rise between now and 30.  Try to have a life, but don't be in a rush for romance.
4. Aim for more than 100K at the next gig. It will not be as easy as you are hoping (unless maybe it is government).
5. Pay off your loans quickly.  Even/especially if they are 0% interest.  It is just not worth potentially family bitterness and judgment. 
6. Max out all available retirement funding options.  100% of the 401(k) even with no match. Backdoor roth IRA just means funding your IRA (which has limits for tax deductibility but not contributions) and rolling the money over to a roth IRA (which has contribution limits but not rollover limits) immediately. Once your big law job ends you will likely want to get out of their mediocre 401k and into a Vanguard or Fidelity IRA, which means you will no longer be able to do a backdoor roth.  I promise there will be plenty of savings leftover to get to old man retirement.

I definitely appreciate the magnitude of the cases I'm on, although it's tough to get excited about my role. Looking forward to that developing over time though for sure.I actually have a long-time girlfriend, which makes things much easier. We definitely want the same things, and I really cannot imagine being single in this job. I've been maxing out my no match 401k but still have to set up the whole backdoor roth thing. I have a roth IRA that I can't contribute to anymore, so I guess I have to open a regular IRA, start contributing to that as well as the 401k and then do whatever the rollover process is into my existing roth? I'll get it done once work slows down a bit. Thanks for the great advice.

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2018, 04:55:46 PM »
You have all year but here is how you get it done.
https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/backdoor-roth-ira-tutorial/
http://upwardlymobile.life

Refinance Student loans with Earnest.  Theyíll pay you $200 and their rates are cheaper than SoFi.

o0olizo0o

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2018, 03:20:19 PM »
I was in BigLaw in NYC for 6.5 years and then moved across the country and now work for the government. As others have said, definitely maximize your savings now while you are making so much. I maxed my 401k (no match like your firm) as well as my HSA while at my firm and that money is huge gift I gave to Future Me. Now I make a lot less so my contributions to my savings are lower (percentage is good, just the actual dollar amount is obviously lower), but that BigLaw money is working hard for me. (Note: I also had enough saved in other accounts for a down payment on a nice house plus plenty of buffer savings.) Firms also give you the opportunity to experience great things without spending your own money. Summer events are great for this.

PassMMM

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2018, 03:35:19 PM »
I was in BigLaw in NYC for 6.5 years and then moved across the country and now work for the government. As others have said, definitely maximize your savings now while you are making so much. I maxed my 401k (no match like your firm) as well as my HSA while at my firm and that money is huge gift I gave to Future Me. Now I make a lot less so my contributions to my savings are lower (percentage is good, just the actual dollar amount is obviously lower), but that BigLaw money is working hard for me. (Note: I also had enough saved in other accounts for a down payment on a nice house plus plenty of buffer savings.) Firms also give you the opportunity to experience great things without spending your own money. Summer events are great for this.

That's interesting. You say your savings % is still good, but the $ amount went down a lot because of the reduced salary. This means you must've dramatically reduced your spending unless I'm reading it wrong. That's very impressive coming from 6.5yrs in biglaw where I imagine almost all of your peers were spending through the roof by your 6th year. Thanks for the advice! I too plan to max out 401k

montgomery212

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2018, 09:12:57 AM »
Hey -- another ex NYC biglaw person here. I was there for 8+ years.

Looks like you're saving about $6200/month? That's awesome esp for a junior associate. Just that savings for 36 months will add up to 220k+ and that's before you count any bonuses, which are substantial, plus your 401k. Keep maxing out the 401k even though there's no match. Also what is your interest rate % on your loans? Consider whether it makes sense to pay them off asap or not. In my biglaw class, seems like everyone was throwing all of their bonuses etc. into loans to get them done quick (bc they wanted out of biglaw fast and knew it wouldn't be easy to pay off those loans on a "regular" salary). But it didn't make sense at the time bc we graduated with sub 3% loans and the market has been returning far more than that (except 08-09). So my priority became (i) 401k investing; (ii) several thousand every month going into an index fund in a brokerage account. I wasn't saving/investing the brokerage funds for anything in particular at the time, but now at age 37 I'm so glad I started that account. As another poster said, my biglaw money is working hard for me.

I think you're smart to target staying 5 years. Who know maybe you'll stay longer. But at many NYC firms, mine included -- things have changed. It used to be (pre recession) that firms were so busy that they had no problem keeping any associate who wanted to stay until years 8-9. Then when I was a 4th yr in (08-09), they were quick to lay off half the class when profitability fell off. Even though profitability is now back, the work load never came back to pre recession levels (yet salaries went up) -- so what used to be a "guaranteed" 8 yrs is now more like a "guaranteed" 4 yrs (bc firms are less busy and yet spending a LOT more on comp); after yr 4 it's about whether they really need your services or not.

Also you mention gov't jobs after. Do you mean federal gov't? Or state/local in Long Island. For local gov't, yeah you'd be at around 100k. But keep in mind that coming from NYC biglaw your experience is/will be financial services clients. You can leverage that into financially related legal roles in the gov't which pay more than non financial roles. As of 2-3 yrs ago, NY State Division of Finance was paying lawyers around 120-130k (though that's with 8 yrs experience). Fed agencies that do financial regulation (I work at one of them) pay more like 120-130k starting with 3-4 yrs experience but your salary goes up about 20-30k in your first 2-3 yrs at the agency; plus there are other "benefits" like a 401k match (currently 8% at my agency though strong chance it gets cut back to 5% -- but as an ex biglaw person, 5% is still huge to me).
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 10:00:55 AM by montgomery212 »

PassMMM

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2018, 08:43:06 AM »
Hey -- another ex NYC biglaw person here. I was there for 8+ years.

Looks like you're saving about $6200/month? That's awesome esp for a junior associate. Just that savings for 36 months will add up to 220k+ and that's before you count any bonuses, which are substantial, plus your 401k. Keep maxing out the 401k even though there's no match. Also what is your interest rate % on your loans? Consider whether it makes sense to pay them off asap or not. In my biglaw class, seems like everyone was throwing all of their bonuses etc. into loans to get them done quick (bc they wanted out of biglaw fast and knew it wouldn't be easy to pay off those loans on a "regular" salary). But it didn't make sense at the time bc we graduated with sub 3% loans and the market has been returning far more than that (except 08-09). So my priority became (i) 401k investing; (ii) several thousand every month going into an index fund in a brokerage account. I wasn't saving/investing the brokerage funds for anything in particular at the time, but now at age 37 I'm so glad I started that account. As another poster said, my biglaw money is working hard for me.

I think you're smart to target staying 5 years. Who know maybe you'll stay longer. But at many NYC firms, mine included -- things have changed. It used to be (pre recession) that firms were so busy that they had no problem keeping any associate who wanted to stay until years 8-9. Then when I was a 4th yr in (08-09), they were quick to lay off half the class when profitability fell off. Even though profitability is now back, the work load never came back to pre recession levels (yet salaries went up) -- so what used to be a "guaranteed" 8 yrs is now more like a "guaranteed" 4 yrs (bc firms are less busy and yet spending a LOT more on comp); after yr 4 it's about whether they really need your services or not.

Also you mention gov't jobs after. Do you mean federal gov't? Or state/local in Long Island. For local gov't, yeah you'd be at around 100k. But keep in mind that coming from NYC biglaw your experience is/will be financial services clients. You can leverage that into financially related legal roles in the gov't which pay more than non financial roles. As of 2-3 yrs ago, NY State Division of Finance was paying lawyers around 120-130k (though that's with 8 yrs experience). Fed agencies that do financial regulation (I work at one of them) pay more like 120-130k starting with 3-4 yrs experience but your salary goes up about 20-30k in your first 2-3 yrs at the agency; plus there are other "benefits" like a 401k match (currently 8% at my agency though strong chance it gets cut back to 5% -- but as an ex biglaw person, 5% is still huge to me).

Thank you for your response! Luckily my rate on my loans is 0%, as I borrowed about 50k from a family member. I know the correct financial decision here is to hold off paying back so my money can accumulate interest, but they know what I make and how feasible it is to pay them back, so I'll probably do something conservative like 10k/year.

That's great to hear about high government salaries; I was really just speculating. I was thinking likely federal government for me, but I guess anything is possible. Congrats on how well everything has worked out for you - staying in this mindset through 8 years of biglaw must have been a real challenge!

montgomery212

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2018, 10:48:18 AM »
Hey -- another ex NYC biglaw person here. I was there for 8+ years.

Looks like you're saving about $6200/month? That's awesome esp for a junior associate. Just that savings for 36 months will add up to 220k+ and that's before you count any bonuses, which are substantial, plus your 401k. Keep maxing out the 401k even though there's no match. Also what is your interest rate % on your loans? Consider whether it makes sense to pay them off asap or not. In my biglaw class, seems like everyone was throwing all of their bonuses etc. into loans to get them done quick (bc they wanted out of biglaw fast and knew it wouldn't be easy to pay off those loans on a "regular" salary). But it didn't make sense at the time bc we graduated with sub 3% loans and the market has been returning far more than that (except 08-09). So my priority became (i) 401k investing; (ii) several thousand every month going into an index fund in a brokerage account. I wasn't saving/investing the brokerage funds for anything in particular at the time, but now at age 37 I'm so glad I started that account. As another poster said, my biglaw money is working hard for me.

I think you're smart to target staying 5 years. Who know maybe you'll stay longer. But at many NYC firms, mine included -- things have changed. It used to be (pre recession) that firms were so busy that they had no problem keeping any associate who wanted to stay until years 8-9. Then when I was a 4th yr in (08-09), they were quick to lay off half the class when profitability fell off. Even though profitability is now back, the work load never came back to pre recession levels (yet salaries went up) -- so what used to be a "guaranteed" 8 yrs is now more like a "guaranteed" 4 yrs (bc firms are less busy and yet spending a LOT more on comp); after yr 4 it's about whether they really need your services or not.

Also you mention gov't jobs after. Do you mean federal gov't? Or state/local in Long Island. For local gov't, yeah you'd be at around 100k. But keep in mind that coming from NYC biglaw your experience is/will be financial services clients. You can leverage that into financially related legal roles in the gov't which pay more than non financial roles. As of 2-3 yrs ago, NY State Division of Finance was paying lawyers around 120-130k (though that's with 8 yrs experience). Fed agencies that do financial regulation (I work at one of them) pay more like 120-130k starting with 3-4 yrs experience but your salary goes up about 20-30k in your first 2-3 yrs at the agency; plus there are other "benefits" like a 401k match (currently 8% at my agency though strong chance it gets cut back to 5% -- but as an ex biglaw person, 5% is still huge to me).

Thank you for your response! Luckily my rate on my loans is 0%, as I borrowed about 50k from a family member. I know the correct financial decision here is to hold off paying back so my money can accumulate interest, but they know what I make and how feasible it is to pay them back, so I'll probably do something conservative like 10k/year.

That's great to hear about high government salaries; I was really just speculating. I was thinking likely federal government for me, but I guess anything is possible. Congrats on how well everything has worked out for you - staying in this mindset through 8 years of biglaw must have been a real challenge!

It helped that I liked it -- but it's a TOUGH job; I can't imagine doing it for nearly a decade if I had hated it. Just take it year by year and keep reassessing how you feel about it and whether you want to stay another year or start thinking about moving on.

Definitely didn't mean that you should hold off on loans forever 10k/yr is perfectly reasonable. Mine were commercial loans at 2.8% calculated over 30 years. I certainly was NOT going to be paying loans until age 55. So I made triple payments and ended up paying them off in just under 10 yrs -- while keeping an eye on the market, in 2008-2009 when there were no market returns to be had, it made sense to bump up my loan payments even more. I just meant that it doesn't always make sense to throw entire bonuses into loans until they are done. I had friends who did this (and saved little generally bc sometimes monthly savings went to loans or other times they took REALLY expensive vacations, luxury apartments etc.) because they wanted loans gone so they could leave biglaw in 3 years. It worked out in the sense that they could take a 120k job without having to worry about how they'd service their debt, but now they do talk about how hard it is to save for a down payment, kids college etc. on a "regular salary" and how they wish they'd stayed for 1 more bonus cycle. For me -- I knew that if I left biglaw without having a "nest egg," I'd regret it. So I balanced paying off loans faster than required while still putting plenty into savings and investments.

As you said it's an odd profession in that you make a lot of money while young and then most (not all) end up in the 100k-200k range afterwards. It makes your life a LOT less stressful when you're making 150k, if you can worry about your day to day bills and savings without worrying about how you'll possibly save enough for a house down payment. IME with the federal gov't, certainly you can save, but odd to me that in any given yr the % you save for retirement > cash that you save in savings/investments (in part bc your get generous 401k matches, contribute to a pension etc.).

use2betrix

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2018, 08:23:18 AM »
5 years is a long time.  Youíre planning on misery until youíre 30? I bring it up because you may find it difficult to keep a significant other happy when you work 6-7 days a week for 10-12 hours per day.  If you havenít met someone, you may find it difficult to socialize...

I bring it up because NYC law practice is going to have a toll on your life.  Itís not as easily quantified as the finances.  I reiterate that 5 years is a long time in big law.  Just...keep your eyes open for an in-house role or small firm role within 3 years.

Iíve been doing these hours in a different, but stressful industry since I was 22 (now 30). Itís surprising the amount of energy a young, healthy, single person can have. Iím now married, but when with 60-70 hr weeks I had plenty of energy (and even time) to work out, go out with friends, dates, cook, clean, etc. just depends on priorities and making sure to keep a schedule.

PassMMM

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2018, 10:43:20 AM »
5 years is a long time.  Youíre planning on misery until youíre 30? I bring it up because you may find it difficult to keep a significant other happy when you work 6-7 days a week for 10-12 hours per day.  If you havenít met someone, you may find it difficult to socialize...

I bring it up because NYC law practice is going to have a toll on your life.  Itís not as easily quantified as the finances.  I reiterate that 5 years is a long time in big law.  Just...keep your eyes open for an in-house role or small firm role within 3 years.

Iíve been doing these hours in a different, but stressful industry since I was 22 (now 30). Itís surprising the amount of energy a young, healthy, single person can have. Iím now married, but when with 60-70 hr weeks I had plenty of energy (and even time) to work out, go out with friends, dates, cook, clean, etc. just depends on priorities and making sure to keep a schedule.

Yea, I have a long term SO now, but I have time for everything in my life. That being said, I have a few relatives with newborns and homes and I can't imagine being able to handle all of that with these hours and have any kind of life. Luckily, I started this job at 25, so the timing should work out pretty well with all of that.

use2betrix

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2018, 12:29:43 PM »
5 years is a long time.  Youíre planning on misery until youíre 30? I bring it up because you may find it difficult to keep a significant other happy when you work 6-7 days a week for 10-12 hours per day.  If you havenít met someone, you may find it difficult to socialize...

I bring it up because NYC law practice is going to have a toll on your life.  Itís not as easily quantified as the finances.  I reiterate that 5 years is a long time in big law.  Just...keep your eyes open for an in-house role or small firm role within 3 years.


Good point! I have neither which makes a big difference. If I had a working wife and a child, itíd definitely be harder. Donít want to be that absent father!

Iíve been doing these hours in a different, but stressful industry since I was 22 (now 30). Itís surprising the amount of energy a young, healthy, single person can have. Iím now married, but when with 60-70 hr weeks I had plenty of energy (and even time) to work out, go out with friends, dates, cook, clean, etc. just depends on priorities and making sure to keep a schedule.

Yea, I have a long term SO now, but I have time for everything in my life. That being said, I have a few relatives with newborns and homes and I can't imagine being able to handle all of that with these hours and have any kind of life. Luckily, I started this job at 25, so the timing should work out pretty well with all of that.

PassMMM

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2018, 07:14:03 AM »
Just an update on how things are going. I think they're going pretty well. I know 3,200 per month for 1 person is a lot, but I actually anticipate this going down when I move in with my girlfriend in the fall (splitting food, likely going out much less, etc). Let me know what you think!

Topic Title: Case Study - I'm 26, new lawyer, my career is odd in that I'm starting (before tax) at $195k, which will end up at about $380k by my 5th year (large firm, lockstep pay). I don't see a world in which I can do these hours for more than 5 years, so at that point I'l likely switch to government or in house at likely around $100k until FI/RE or some part-time situation.

Life Situation: IRS filing status - single with a long time SO, probably kids within 5 years, work/live in NYC but hoping to return to Long Island to raise a future family.

Gross Salary/Wages: 205k (just got a raise to 190 base and bonus went from 15 to 20) The monthly wages reflect only the 190.

Individual amounts of each Pre-tax deductions 401k (currently doing 3k/month to catch up to 18.5k max by the end of the year), HSA (still on dad's insurance until the end of 2018 - thanks Obama), Roth IRA (make too much, but I put $15k from summer jobs in college in a Roth before I finished law school, planning to do that backdoor thing at the end of the year)

Taxes: Federal, state/local, and FICA.  These should be consistent with your AGI and Life Situation.  For non-U.S. posters, weíll have to take your word for these. Living in NYC I get about 5500/month taken out in taxes, netting me about $9300/mo

Current expenses (monthly):
Rent - $1490 (but puts me in a 15min commute)
Food - $300
Going out - $700 (restaurants, bars, events, etc)
Travel - $200 (subway metrocard + LIRR visiting family twice a month + Ubers/Taxis)
Dry cleaning - $30
Subscriptions - $15
Internet - $15
Utilities - $45
Phone - $75 (my portion of split family plan)
Gifts - $50
Clothes - $25
Other - $200

Total - $3200

Assets:
Roth IRA - 15k
3-year CD - 15k
2-year CD - 2.5k
Savings Accounts - 13k
Checking account - 2k
401k - 7k
Vanguard - 26k

Liabilities: $65k private family loan over 7 years of school (mostly taken care of via scholarships) Plan to pay 10k at the end of each year until it's gone.

MDM

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Re: Case Study - Weird career oh high salary for first 5 years
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2018, 07:30:58 AM »
Individual amounts of each Pre-tax deduction...HSA (still on dad's insurance until the end of 2018....
Are you doing the full $6900?