case study - Low-Income Family of 5, lost and trying to relocate

[mindshift88]

Life Situation: I'm 30M w/ wife and 3 kids ages 8, 6, & 4. My wife has lupus and some other medical issues. My oldest has some attachment issues due to some undesirable life experiences before I got full custody of her. My middle-child has mild autism (previously Asperger's). We live in a rural area in western Maryland (2.5 hours to closest airport/large city, 1 hour to closest small city). I'm currently a Customer Success Manager for an advisor practice management software suite. I've performed well with my current company over 3 positions the past 8 years but have run out of growing room without moving to Chicago (would be great for my growth but another cold area). My wife is a stay-at-home mom until my youngest starts school. Neither of us have a degree.

Aside from becoming financially independent, we'd like to relocate to a more desirable location before the kids get much older. Our current location has very little job opportunities, is far away from everything other than general outdoors, and the majority of the population are... the word Redneck comes to mind. Ideally, we'd like to find a location with good schools, a warmer and more diverse environment, and ideally a place with performing arts opportunities for my wife. We've been searching for about a year now but have found all of the more desirable areas we've researched to require a huge jump in cost of living. Fort Collins, CO. is currently at the top of the list as an ideal combination but other areas we've looked at have a similarly high cost. I'm also unsure what my best career moves would be given my current position and lack of a degree. I've considered entrepreneurship off and on over the years but unsure my best moves there either. Ultimately, I'm trying to determine my best options to become financially independent while also raising my family in a more desirable environment.

Gross Salary:
$3,246.26/month in salary

Pre-tax:
$202/mo HDHP/Dental/Vision
$180/mo HSA
$98/mo 401k
$8/mo additional life insurance

Taxes:
$546.44/mo

Net:
$2212.76/mo

Current Expenses (rough estimates from Mint, just started trying to track better):
Rent: $788
Electric: $135
Internet: 70
Water: 90
Cell: $108
Car Insurance: $137
Rent Insurance: $27
Netflix: $8
Spotify: $15
HostGator (hosting): $30
Restaurants, fast food, convenience stores: $500
Wal-Mart/Sam's Club: Groceries, household, etc. $900 (just started trying to break down numbers for better tracking
Gas (car): $100
Misc: $400

Assets:
$4400 401k (mostly low cost index funds, 1 high-growth fund, full stock allocation)
$6000 HSA (half in TD trading acct, index fund)
$800 2004 Hyundai Santa Fe w/ ~165k miles
$400 savings

Liabilities:
none, just paid off last loan

Specific Questions:
What are some ways that I can make a transition from a very low salary/cost area to a much more expensive area?
With no degree and a successful background in customer service (primarily around the RIA/investment industry), what skills/careers/businesses would likely earn me a higher income?

----------Update------------
I realized that I didn't really leave much to go on related to skills/career possibilities. To expand on that a bit, I started off in customer service, then moved to import training specialist, and have been on the Customer Success side the past 3.5 years (like a combo of training, inside sales, relationship management, general retention). I've maintained mid to high CSAT scores including the highest global score last year of 9.86 and have always been in the top quartile for Net New Revenue hitting 242% of target in 2017 (#1) and 197% of target in 2018 (#2 or 3). I'm a stereotypical INTJ personality and tend to excel with troubleshooting, training, and most logic-based activities. Without knowing what skills will pay off best, I'm currently attempting to learn basic programming starting with Python and probably following with Java.

I previously thought about becoming a CFP but moved away from that since it requires a Bachelors as prerequisite and I can't justify the cost commitment of pursuing a degree given my current financial/family position. I've been leaning toward trying to start a business on the side of my current position and work on growing it to replace my current income.

I've also worked as an elegant wedding DJ the past 1.5 years on the side with reasonable success (most weekends April-Oct, very good reviews with 2 exceptions) though I don't really have the voice or high-energy personality for it. Previously dabbled with building basic websites and some affiliate marking in my teenage years. Have been paying $30/month for my reseller hosting for years though I haven't touched any of my sites since before mobile-friendly sites became popular.

To add to the above questions, I'm also open to suggestions on any useful certifications that don't require first getting a degree.

----------Update 2:-----------

I've historically struggled to maintain a positive or even balanced budget. I've been able to generally spread out my bonuses, tax return, and DJ income to pay off debts and cover budget overages, birthdays/holidays, and a few sets of concert tickets per year. The above numbers are based on my consistent predictable income.

Other income:
Bonus: target ~$4400 if I hit 100% of net new goal. 30% accelerator (1.3%) for anything over 100% (lucky past 2 years)
Taxes: need to adjust. I had a fairly large return at the end of 2017, less so for 2018 as the DJ company I work for doesn't deduct any federal or state taxes currently.
DJ Income: About an additional $8k last year
CC Cash Back: $10-40/month (used for half of bills and most other expenses, also used to cover reimbursable travel when visiting clients, I pay them off weekly)
Cell Phone: $108 for 2 lines on ATT shared data plan, ~$65 reimbursed as I occasionally use for client meetings

[ysette9]

I don’t have anything useful to say ok the career front unfortunately. Do you have an AA or AS? Have you looked into going back to school part time to at least get that? Does your employer offer tuition assistance or do they have offices in other areas you could look to transfer to?

I realize your wife has lupus and that is challenging, but will she be able to work part-time in the future? Can she go to school part-time now to set her up to be a better income earner later?

Of your spending most things look very good except your food/restaurants. That is a lot for anyone to be spending and really a lot for someone at your income level. I’d challenge you to spend no more than $600/month total between groceries and restaurants. 

[BicycleB]

Not sure there's a cookie cutter answer to your question set. You have a lot to do.

Paths I'd explore in your shoes:
-States that include employers in the financial industry, plus good health care (I've heard Connecticut does; insurance companies in Hartford...)
-Cost of living vs quality employers (Twin Cities in Minnesota...cold, but otherwise good overall, I suspect)
-Places with lots of employment, companies that include a finance element, and low taxes (Texas...Austin has tons of jobs for the tech savvy, a number of small fintech startups; Dallas, several offices of large companies that do customer service in finance)
-Degrees or certifications that verify or build upon your proven real life skills (you have customer service, but that's low to mid paying; with some tech added, you could maybe double your pay in the right niche).

Random example from a friend: "Sharepoint expert with Agile and customer service experience" might get 90k jobs occasionally, "customer service expert and hey, I could learn Sharepoint" wouldn't get the interview. The point isn't specifically Sharepoint or Agile, it's find something learnable that's well paid and learn it, then your customer service expertise is a competitive advantage. Sharepoint is sometimes used in internal customer service within large tech-and-finance companies, so that's why the example. Maybe look for project coordinator positions, add the software skills they want, use that to get into project management? Or at least to get into supervisor/mgmt roles at big companies in bigger market than where you are?

Your wife's care over time will likely rise, her ability to contribute gradually decline. One of my friends died of lupus eventually. Treasure your times together.

You may not retire as fast as other members of this forum because you have bigger fish to fry. That's ok. Do the things you can do. Increasing your savings rate will reduce stress and increase options. Cut down the food expenses - I spend $180/person/month for one grown man, including taking my girlfriend to rare occasional restaurants, living in medium cost city. You're at $280/mo for a group where 3 of the people have tiny bodies. You can do this.

Best wishes to both you and your wife.

[mindshift88]

Thanks @Bicycle_B for the suggestions. I haven't looked into any of these cities yet but will do so. I haven't used Sharepoint much outside of downloading some things from there but have started to learn Salesforce basics. A few people from my team have previously moved to CSM team lead, then CSM manager, then moved to the project manager position so I imagine this could be a decent route to move toward more valuable positions. I'm also trying my hand at learning programming. I'm unsure if it's a career path I'd want to do full time yet but at the very least I could learn to automate some admin work and research.

Thanks to you and @ysette9 for reminding me that my food expenses are ridiculous and would not be sustainable if not for side work and bonuses. I'm working to start meal-planning this week to cut this expense down. Not sure if I can hit $600/mo but gives me a good target goal.

I've also added some additional detail on my current skills/experience and am open to any additional career/skill-building/certification recommendations that might work well for me. I've historically always wanted to be an entrepreneur but worry about how much more I would have to earn to replace the need for corporate health insurance given the likely higher medical expenses my wife might have over time. Most of my colleagues are based in Chicago and make $60k+, though I believe they all have BA/BS or higher. My salary is capped a lot lower due to HR's cost of living adjustments for the office I work in.

[Another Reader]

Unless your wife is physically unable to cook, that restaurant spending should be zero or close to it.  She can cook tasty, healthy meals while she is at home and you can do the same on weekends.  Batch cooking would cover days when she is not up to cooking.  That's $500 a month right there.  $900 a month in grocery, paper supplies and the like should cover all the spending for food and those other categories for your size family AFTER you cut out the restaurant and convenience store food.  The $400 miscellaneous category also needs to be examined in detail.  My guess is a lot of that spending is unnecessary as well.

If you can save $700-$800 a month by shaving your expenses, you will soon have enough money to move or make progress towards your other goals.

[reeshau]

You list ~$2,200 net income, but your monthly expenses add up to ~$3,300.  You say they are rough estimates, but you can't be 50% off.  Are you currently racking up debt somewhere?  You mention a DJ side hustle--is this providing the difference?  What about the reseller hosting--is that making a profit?

Food has been mentioned, but as stated, it's 60% of your take-home pay.  That has to register as crazy, somehow.

I think it's fairly common to try different things when you are dissatisfied with your primary job.  But trying so many things at the same time won't let you do well at any of them.

Finally, why are you so adamant about not getting a degree?  Are you assuming you will need to take out student loans?  I think it would be quite common for a large brokerage to help you work toward a CFP on the company dime.  And while there is a rigorous curriculum, a bachelor's degree is not required.

[mindshift88]

@lhamo I do need to review and adjust my tax withholding. My return wasn't as high for 2018 because the company I DJ for doesn't hold any federal/state but still higher than it needed to be. Haven't adjusted yet because I've fallen into the habit of depending on tax return to refill my backup savings.

For the cell phone, my company reimburses my half (~$65) so mainly just paying for my wife's half.

Will research hulu and insurance options.

@reeshau Yes, I'm still trying to balance my budget based on my stable income but have historically depended on bonuses, DJ income, and tax return to cover the difference.

I enjoy my current job but it's not going to hit the salary I need to live in a better area. I tend to stay spread a bit thin on focus as I'm unsure which direction is likely to have the best ROI. My company offers assistance with getting a CFA but I'm not sure about lower-end degree assistance. Added to my list to look more into.

A friend of mine around DC told me his company starts Jr. Java programmers off around $90k and, given that programming can be hired based more on demonstrating knowledge/ability rather than just credentials, I'm leaning in that direction.

As far as I can tell, CFP does currently require a Bachelors according to https://www.cfp.net/become-a-cfp-professional/cfp-certification-requirements
"You must also have earned a bachelor’s degree (or higher) from an accredited college or university in order to obtain CFP® certification. The bachelor’s degree requirement is a condition of initial certification; however, it is not a requirement to be eligible to take the CFP® Certification Examination and does not need to be met before registering for the examination. CFP Board does not grant equivalencies or exceptions to the bachelor’s degree education requirement."

As noted by others, my food expenses are beyond excessive and I will be working to cut eating out in order to work towards my goals. We don't have the best grocery options (mainly just wal-mart, sam's club about an hour away) but will see what we can manage.

Given my budget issue is fairly obvious, at this point I'm still looking for any opinions on good locations to raise the family, best likely options to move into career-wise, and any useful resources on tasty low-budget cooking (healthy would be an extra bonus).

[Freedomin5]

Have you checked out MMM's blog article on jobs over $50K that do not require a degree?

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/07/25/50-jobs-over-50000-without-a-degree-part-1/
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/08/05/50-jobs-over-50000-without-a-degree-part-2/

For tasty low budget cooking, check out Budget Bytes (www.budgetbytes.com).

And finally, with regard to moving, get a job in that location FIRST, and then move! Do not move your family of five halfway across the country with no source of income lined up.

[kei te pai]

I dont see any emergency fund there. Personally I would be doing everything I could to build up $5000 or so before contemplating any major life changes.

[reeshau]

As far as I can tell, CFP does currently require a Bachelors according to https://www.cfp.net/become-a-cfp-professional/cfp-certification-requirements
"You must also have earned a bachelor’s degree (or higher) from an accredited college or university in order to obtain CFP® certification. The bachelor’s degree requirement is a condition of initial certification; however, it is not a requirement to be eligible to take the CFP® Certification Examination and does not need to be met before registering for the examination. CFP Board does not grant equivalencies or exceptions to the bachelor’s degree education requirement."

Fair enough.  To get specific, you can take the certification exam without a degree.  But you also need three years' experience before you get certified, too.  So, a junior person at a financial planning firm, test passed but not yet certified, could be working on their degree.  (and still getting paid to work under supervision of a CFP)  I can't locate them offhand, but I have seen this process / perk described in national brokerages' employment listings before.  (i.e. sign with us, we'll help you get your CFP)

[Villanelle]

In your situation, I wouldn't find a target location and look for jobs.  I would look for jobs anywhere and everywhere, and only rule out those in places you think you absolutely couldn't stand.  Based on the criteria you mention, most mid- to large sized cities would qualify, except perhaps those in the very far north. 

It doesn't seem like you can afford to be picky.  The budget info you posted is pretty useless because you can't have a ~$1000 monthly shortfall and yet no debt.  Assuming that all of that is made up by side-gigs, you are in somewhat bad shape as income sounds like it barely matches expenses.  So if you find a job that pays well and has growth potential in Omaha (for example), it seems to me like you deal with the bad winter.  And if you find that job in Colorado Springs, you deal with the lack of arts opportunities for your wife (I don't know what kind of art she's into, so COS may not be bad, but it's an example).  After you have stayed a few years and bolstered your resume, then you can start looking again, being a bit more selective about location, but perhaps still not aiming for a specific place.  If that friend of yours in DC can help you get a foot in the door, sounds like you need to move to DC.  You can be picky, or you can make some forward progress.

Lastly, have you read the MMM blog post about jobs paying over $50k that don't require a college degree?  (Opps, I see someone else said this, and linked  them)   Any viable paths there for you?  Or your spouse once the youngest goes to school?

[mindshift88]

@reeshau  & @ysette9  Looked into my company's tuition program. Sounds like they do offer to reimburse up to $20k/year for undergraduate or postgraduate degree if in a related major, approved, and pass all courses with at least a B. Considering taking this route, with or without move to Chicago (main HQ for my company and more opportunities), as a viable option. It's an expensive city and likely looking at not getting more than $50-60k after the move (or remaining here at current income) so unsure if it's a good route compared to learning programming or exploring some trade-school options. Thoughts?

[ysette9]

I think if you can get a bachelor’s on your company’s dime then that is a fantastic move to make. You will be so much more marketable with a degree. Usually these programs reimburse tuition after you take a class and prove you got at least a B. Can you float the tuition of, say, one class at a time for the first semester?

[zee dot]

1. Transfer with company to Chicago for better career opportunities
2. Get employer to contribute to degree
3. Enjoy new opportunities for a few years
4. Get job in warmer climate

It's baffling that you won't consider Chicago simply because it is cold.

Dear past self,
WHY THE FUCK DIDN'T YOU MOVE TO CHICAGO??
BECAUSE IT WAS COLD?????????????????????????????????
Regards,
Future broke ass still working self

[ysette9]

I could be off the mark, but it may be due to his wife and her disease. I have a finding member with an autoimmune disease and cold is really a burden that makes it additionally difficult to manage her health.

[zee dot]

Good point.  I didn't think about that.
While a quick Google of "number of people living with lupus in chicago" didn't give an exact number there is a Lupus Society of Illinois that shows ppl living w lupus in the area so might be worth it for a few years.

[Another Reader]

She may have access to better medical care in Chicago as well.  The major cities generally have better specialists and more options.

[reeshau]

$20k per year is an excellent benefit, and should handle your tuition at a decent school.  I would also look out for a lower amount or requirement for you to fund books, and a requirement for commitment to the company after your graduation date.   But I would say this is a pretty common way people improve their prospects.  It's how I got my MBA.

[APowers]

As noted by others, my food expenses are beyond excessive and I will be working to cut eating out in order to work towards my goals. We don't have the best grocery options (mainly just wal-mart, sam's club about an hour away) but will see what we can manage.

There's also this thread on the forum: Ultimate Mustachian Food Guide
And this one, which I'm particularly proud of:
How to have a $200/month food budget

[Cranky]

Ft. Collins is not exactly a warm climate.

I’d go to Chicago at this point, and pursue a degree while working. Not an easy path at this point in your family life, but a long term investment.

[mindshift88]

Thanks to everyone for sharing your advice so far. I've noted to ask my manager about relocation and the degree reimbursement in next check-in later this week and have tried to mostly cut restaurants and convenience store visits. First month trying to break out my receipts to better see where general spending goes (groceries, home, etc.) so will see what I can do to tighten things there.

50 Jobs over $50k
I've looked at the 50 jobs over $50k lists a few times. The only one that really lines up to move from my current customer success role is sales. I've pondered moving this route for years as one of the most likely ways to hit six figures without a degree but I'm not a great sales person and strongly introverted. I've been leaning more toward the wordpress/web/software developer options. I'd be starting from scratch with no computer science education, really nothing more than some basic html knowledge from back before mobile-friendly sites, but it does fall in line with my natural strengths and I could likely learn to do it well after a few years of consistent practice/learning.

Bachelors vs Programming?
Most of you seem to recommend pursuing the Bachelor's degree route. From what I read, it sounds like my company allows me to submit the expense reports when I make the payments and have to pay back if I don't follow through on everything. Must maintain a B or better on all courses and stay with the company at least 2 years after last received reimbursement. I know the credentials would help land future interviews but I could see myself struggling to focus well enough to maintain the B average between work and 3 kids and risk needing to pay back the costs.

Anyone that can comment on taking the programming route self-taught without computer science courses?

Chicago
Although not my first choice, Chicago would likely be my easiest move since my current employer's primary HQ is there. I'll be asking my manager about the cost of living adjustment of my current role if I were to move there this week but from numbers of heard from others that have made the move I'd likely be looking at $55-60k. Given the much higher cost of living in Chicago, I feel like this would at least temporarily put me in a much worse position financially until I'm able to grow my salary another decent chunk. I'd also likely be moving from a 12 minute commute to work to an hour or so train ride in from the suburbs (though good study time).

Do we have any Mustachians with larger families (3 kids) in the Chicago area, especially single income families, that can share their experience with the area?

Specifically:
-recommended areas to look at
-transportation (assuming I'll need to keep vehicle as I can't see bringing 20-30 bags of groceries on the train/bus)
-recommendations to cut costs

Pre-Move Considerations

• Emergency Fund - working on rebuilding, just added $900 from travel reimbursement. I generally try to keep $2k aside but it tends to get used up to cover overages. Plan to eventually have a comfortable 6-month cushion but obviously far from it.
• Down-Sizing - We currently have a relatively large 3-br townhouse full of stuff in a rural area. I'm not sure the square footage to get a decent comparison but believe we'll likely need to get rid of at least half of everything we own to move into a 3-bedroom place around Chicago.
• School - We currently live in an area with very good schools. This is one of my biggest concern areas with moving as it seems that the good schools around Chicago are all in the really expensive areas.
• Moving Stuff - After various searches, it sounds like movers are really expensive. Ideally I'd like to cut down to the point that we can fit everything in a single large uHaul.

Any suggestions on cutting costs w/ long distance moving?

Thanks again to those that have commented and anyone else that has advice for me. These are very helpful. :)

[mindshift88]

Update:

Inquired on tuition reimbursement and possible move to Chicago with my manager. Recommended inquiring tuition details with HR but on the potential move my company doesn't offer COLA/Cost of Living Adjustment or other one-time increase. Would basically either need re-hired in a new position or work the increase in over the standard semi-annual performance reviews. Since my current salary would barely cover rent alone in Chicago, sounds like this option is off the table. This is on top of the fact that I've continued to grow discontent with the company over the past couple years and no longer agree with their ethical decisions, lack of focus in where we're positioning the software I cover for the past few years, and consistently ignoring important issues until a larger authority forces a change also make me feel that I don't really want to lock myself in another 6 years for the tuition reimbursement.

Going back to the drawing board, with no easy moves to relocate currently I'm thinking I have the following options.
1) Apply for some other Customer Success positions in various cities that may or may not offer relocation assistance.
2) Learn programming a few years and apply for a jobs in that area in various cities, same as above but likely starting at higher salary.
3) Some type of online-based entrepreneurship.

Thoughts on best route of the above?

[BicycleB]

Developing computer skills is something that takes practice as well as study. You will need to do both to progress.

In my mind, that makes progress uncertain until you establish a consistent success habit of practice and study, without losing your family connection. Your wife's health adds uncertainty too.

Since you clearly want to progress, I my guess is that you should try 1 first and 2 over time. Any action short of Doing Everything Is Right is risky, of course, but that's my guess. I suppose that Doing Everything Right would consist of:
A. Keep tightening expenses, establish a solid savings habit and stronger reserve
B. Start that computer learning habit
C. Job search; move for a good offer in an area with good health care
D. Keep up the computer progress
E. Perform a series of upward job moves

Not an expert in any of these areas, will defer to wiser posters. It's possible that just A and B plus taking care of your family will be all that can wisely done for several years.

[pbkmaine]

What makes you think you would like programming? Perhaps take an online course first, to see if it suits you? If it does not, consider a bachelors in accounting, which your firm would almost certainly cover (but check first, of course.)

[begood]

Add Cincinnati to your list of possible cities. Yes, it's cold in the winter, but not supercold for superlong. It is NOT as cold as Chicago. Spring, summer, and fall are pretty delightful in Cincinnati.

It's a big city that feels like a small town. It has culture, big-city sports, lots of performing arts opportunities, and good schools but has a lower cost of living than many other big cities.

https://www.bestplaces.net/cost_of_living/city/ohio/cincinnati

[blingwrx]

$788 for a 3 bedroom town house and heat included? I don't think you'll make it in a big city on that income, rent for a 3 bed room apartments/house in a big HCOL city can be 2.5-3.5k easy. Heating costs in winter can be up to $300 a month in colder climates. Definitely research the housing situation before deciding on a move, you'll probably need to live on the outskirts of the city to reduce rents which could mean a long commute. You may be stuck in suburbia in a LCOL area until you can significantly increase your income.

While the jobs do pay slightly more in HCOL cities it's not that much more and won't keep up with the housing costs at all. Your salary may be 10-20% more but your housing cost may very well be triple the cost. I once was offer a job in silicon valley paid 20% more than i was currently making but housing cost there are the highest in the nation and it was double what i was currently spending and other costs of living was a lot higher too so i declined the move, it didn't make financial sense.

I agree with others a bachelors degree would be ideal, there's a lot of competition these days and most candidates have a bachelors degree and some even a masters degree or multiple degrees. Definitely look for the jobs first before relocating.

I read a post about people wanting to switch careers to programming all the time here, but people only want to do it because they think it's easy money, they think let me just take a boot camp class and make a six figure salary after only a few months of study and little money invested. Nothing is ever as easy as it sounds, programming isn't for everyone and not everyone can be good at it. It's a brain intensive job, you have to be really good at logical thinking and algorithms. If you're a straight 'A' student in calculus maybe you could be good at it or maybe not. I do have a bachelors degree in computer science so i can tell you even with that it's not easy landing high paying jobs. You really do have to prove you're good with a good portfolio of work or have connections to get your foot in the door, not everyone can be a Mark Zuckerberg.

I definitely wouldn't count programming out as an option but I would definitely explore this with some self training on your own first and try to make some programs, there's a lot of free online tutorials, then if you find you like it then maybe you can consider paying/investing in some classes and go from there, but definitely don't consider this a path if you can't stand it or you're not able to get the concepts. You can't force yourself to be a programming genius. Do your due diligence to ensure this is the right path and take it slow don't just jump in and waste a boat load of time and money on something you may not like.