Author Topic: Case Study – Looking for pearls of wisdom.  (Read 2517 times)

FIJNY

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Case Study – Looking for pearls of wisdom.
« on: January 22, 2020, 11:44:18 AM »

Looking for wisdom from this amazing community on our situation and our best path forward.  I am 47 and my wife is 46.  We have always lived moderately and for the most part debt free (except for mortgage).  My wife loves her job and doesn’t plan to retire early.  She also provides our benefits, medical, dental, vision, etc.  I on the other hand would RE tomorrow if we had the means.  Career has taken a turn for the worse the last few years and I do not see a better path in the future.  So, I would like to position us where I can RE eventually or in the case of a job loss we are taken care of without the stress of finding another job.  To be fair, once I do retire I will likely pursue my own venture or do something PT which generates money but I haven’t worked out what that will be yet.

Here is our current situation:

Life Situation:   Married filing jointly, 2 Dependents (ages 15 & 13).  Live in NC.

Gross Salary/Wages:   $102,500 (me) / $30,000 (spouse)

$629,605 in Pre-tax retirement account as follows:
     401K (me):  $113,835
     401K (spouse): $13,000
     Traditional IRA: $455,687
     Employer Retirement Account: $60,070

$139,259 in Post-tax accounts as follows:
     Roth IRA (me): $32,331
     Roth IRA (spouse): $34,392
     529 (kid #1): $26,295
     529 (kid #2):  $15,697
     Brokerage: $4,544
     Savings: $26,000

Current annual investment amount: $40K, but will be targeting to push that to $51K this year.  This will consist of $29K pre-tax (contribution + match) / $12K Roth IRAs / $10K Brokerage.

Taxes: 22%

Home value: $316,000 ($128,000 remaining on mortgage).  Not currently working to pay off early.  Investing instead.

Vehicles: Paid off.

Current core expenses:  $41,784 annually.

Liabilities: No debt other than mortgage.

Specific Questions: Guess what I am really looking for is a high-level review of our situation and some pearls of wisdom/guidance on getting to FI …and once there how to situate ourselves for RE if needed.

Would truly appreciate your feedback for consideration, thanks!

Laura33

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Re: Case Study – Looking for pearls of wisdom.
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2020, 01:08:41 PM »
First, good questions, and good to be planning ahead given your job insecurity.  I think financially you are fine, given (1) your wife's continued employment, and (2) your future SS (which is not as far in the future for you as it is for the early-FIRE contingent here).  The three big caveats are:  (1) how will your wife feel if she keeps her day job and you retire; (2) what are your plans for funding college, and how is that accounted for; and (3) how much room is there between your listed "core" expenses and the expenses involved in the lifestyle you actually want to live for the rest of your life?

(The only one of those that matters, btw, is how your wife feels about it.  Everything else is manageable if things don't go right.  But it's not worth losing a partner over a job (or lack of one).)

I also think you can do your own analysis using something like cFIREsim, if you're a spreadsheet guy.  If not, you can do the bucket method that I picked up here:  divide your projected lifespan into separate periods based on changes in income and expenses -- so for ex in your case, you'd have $30K income from your DW's job until she quits; somewhere between 62-70 you'll have two SS payments, etc.  Same with expenses -- for ex, that allows you to account for college expenses during the time your kids are in school, as well as decreased expenses when the mortgage is paid off. 

Once you figure out the different timeframes and income/expenses with each, multiple the annual gap (expenses minus income sources) by the number of years -- do this separately for each period.  That is how much money you need to fill that specific bucket.  So, for ex., if you guys are claiming SS at 67, and at that point you plan on having $38K expenses and will get $32K in SS, then you have $6K/yr you need to account for from your investments.  So if nothing else changes between 67 and 77, then you need $60K in your investments by the time you hit 67 to fund your expenses from 67-77. 

But note that you're not 67 yet.  So once you have the figure for each bucket, you need to present-value that figure -- you can use Excel, or a web calculator, or whatever.  That will tell you how much you need to have invested today to fill that specific bucket.   And then, once you have your present-value numbers for each of your buckets, you start "filling" them from the furthest out.  And if you get to the "47 to XX" timeframe and you still have sufficient assets left to fill up that bucket, congratulations -- you may FIRE at will.

I find this very helpful for people like us, who have much higher expenses in the near future than we will in another few years, and who are expecting a decent SS check within a reasonable period of time.  When we did this analysis, the results were far below what the 4% rule suggested, because the 4% rule doesn't account for the fact that the mortgage is done in 8 more years and we have 2 good SS and one pension kicking in in another 10 or so.  Really, in your case, your baseline expenses are very reasonable, and I am guessing that your combined SS checks will cover a decent part of that, so all you're really covering is the next XX years until you claim SS + the much smaller amount left once SS kicks in. 

Nick_Miller

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Re: Case Study – Looking for pearls of wisdom.
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2020, 07:51:51 AM »
OP, so my back-of-the-napkin calculations lead me to believe that your family lives on about $50K per year (after taxes, savings, etc).

So if you could develop a small hustle or PT job that lets you net $20K/year, am I correct in concluding that your family could tread water for a few years without touching any of your Stache? Heck, if that's the case, I'd start figuring out that hustle now and have it ready to jump into as you consider transitioning out of your current job.

Oh and as Laura mentioned, I'd really make sure that your wife truly loves her job, so much so that she will be happy to work (I'm assuming FT?) while you are retired/semi-retired. I'd also make sure to communicate expectations about what your "retired life" would look like. Would she expect you to essentially handle all of the house stuff and be primary on the kid stuff? Would the idea of making life easier for her appeal to her enough to mollify any resentment she might eventually feel about you staying at home while she commutes, works, etc?

FIJNY

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Re: Case Study – Looking for pearls of wisdom.
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2020, 08:47:44 AM »
@Laura33, Thanks for the detailed response.  I am familiar with cFIREsim but probably should revisit it again.  But I was not familiar with the bucket method you mention.  I will definitely look into calculating things using that method, really appreciate you sharing that.

To answer your questions: (1) My wife is 100%+ on me RE before her.  She loves her job and wouldn’t consider leaving it.  I am proud to say I have the most supportive wife I could have ever hoped for.  (2) My plan for our kid’s college is to utilize their 529s until depleted then begin cash flowing the costs.  They will both attend an in-state school keeping cost reasonably (at least compared to out of state/private).  That will damper our investment contributions during that time frame a bit, which is why I am working to seed as much in our investments.  (3) The delta between our ‘core’ expenses and desired future lifestyle wouldn’t be excessive.  We live a low-key lifestyle now and are happy.  Wouldn’t mind a little travel after retirement but nothing extreme.
One bit of information I did not include is that we will inherit a significant amount of money at some point.  At least ($1M+), but I hope that is many decades away and do not wish to factor that into our plan.

@Nick_Miller,  Appreciate the response.  50K is probably a reasonable assumption once you factor in all the small additional expenses per year.  I actually do have a line on a small PT gig working for someone else that could produce that amount.  I would prefer to develop something on my own though that has the potential to grow.  Still trying to figure out what that would be though.  Now wondering if there is a forum on MMM that might have people sharing ideas for side-gigs.

@Laura @Nick_Miller,  Since we have a significant amount in Pre-Tax investments versus Post-Tax and I am only 47 yrs old would it be better to take the tax hit now and funnel more towards Post-Tax or should I keep it flowing into Pre-Tax?  What would be a good strategy to be considering at this point?

Kierun

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Laura33

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Re: Case Study – Looking for pearls of wisdom.
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2020, 10:35:02 AM »
Pre-tax.  While your income is high, you want to max your tax savings.  Once you both retire, you will have much more ability to manage your withdrawals to control your tax rate.  All you need in accessible cash (besides college, EF, etc.) is enough to cover five years' living expenses, because you can do a Roth conversion ladder that allows you to take money out of your pre-tax accounts and convert it to a Roth -- you can't touch the money for five years after you do that, which is why you need five years' expenses covered in accessible cash, but this allows you to convert a little at a time to minimize the tax hit (which is also why you want to do this when your tax rate is low, like after you FIRE).

If you are planning on both covering college and quitting, though, take a really hard look at college costs, because your 529s aren't even close, even for in-state.  So you will want to help direct your kids to schools that may offer them a fair bit of money, either through financial aid or through merit scholarships (the latter of which means applying to schools that they are overqualified for).  Note:  the FAFSA is based on, I think, your income the kid's junior year, so if you do want to quit soon, it would be very, very helpful to your aid package if you do it before then.  Otherwise, you're going to have a pretty serious bill to pay.