Author Topic: Case Study: Debt Diet Needed?  (Read 5835 times)

weatherman07

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Case Study: Debt Diet Needed?
« on: December 11, 2019, 08:51:27 AM »
Hi all,

I have been reading Mr. Money Mustache for years but only recently have actually built up the courage and the internal desire to change my ways, so here we go (first post ever)!

Life Situation:
I am 26, have an MBA and am employed full-time in a solid white collar job. I feel as though I am not paying off student debt fast enough or saving enough money and lately have been feeling stressed as upcoming house expenses exceed what I currently have saved. I live in the Hartford, CT region where the cost of living is relatively low (for the Northeast anyway), so instead of renting I bought a house where I live with my girlfriend. My girlfriend is in her final year of graduate school. She will hopefully find a job as a school counselor sometime in the summer of 2020. For now, she has been working part time while putting herself through school and so she contributes half of our utility bills plus an additional $500.

Gross Salary/Wages:
Before taxes I make around $82,000/year and monthly gross pay is $6,675 (just got the MBA this fall, so I do expect my salary to increase fairly significantly soon).

Pre-tax Deductions:
401(k) contribution: $534/mo
Insurance benefits (Med, Dental, Vision, HSA): $100/mo

Other Ordinary Income:
$500 from girlfriend ("under the table", plus half the utilities, not counted here)

Adjusted Gross Income:
$7,075/mo

Taxes:
Federal Income Tax: $760/mo
Social Security Tax: $408/mo
Medicare Tax: $95/mo
State Income Tax: $300/mo

Current Expenses:
Mortgage on our 3 bed, 2 bath home: $1,600/mo
$35,000 of student loans: $450/mo
Car Payment: $420/mo
Car Insurance: $180/mo
Life Insurance: $12/mo
Home Utilities: $100/mo (my half, GF pays other half)

Discretionary (based on Oct & Nov 2019):
Home Improvement: $600/mo
Groceries: $400/mo (girlfriend spends another $150 on average)
Clothing/Shoes: $350/mo (this is out of the ordinary - I went to France and a watch sale and admittedly wasted a lot of money)
General Merchandise: $400/mo (some of this should count as Home Improvement as well as I would make trips to major retailers and bundle purchases and I had to buy a new $200 Android cell phone in Nov.)
Restaurants: $180/mo
Home Maintenance: $160/mo (pest control & lawn treatments)
Travel: $160/mo (again, I went to France in Oct)
Gas: $141/mo
Cable Internet: $69/mo
Dues & Subscriptions: $40/mo (Netflix, newspapers, Amazon...etc)
Misc/Cash: $80mo

Assets:
Savings Accounts: $8,000
Betterment: $6,000
401(k): $55,000
Equity in home: $55,000 (down payment)
Classic 1996 BMW 3 series convertible: $7,000 (I didn't pay this, I paid effectively $3,000 for it)

Liabilities:
Mortgage: $191,000, payoff in 29 years (LOL)
2017 VW GTI loan: $16,700, payoff May 2023
Student Loans: ~$35,000 (varied interest rates as high as 5.5%)

Specific Questions:

  • So overall, if I don't get hit with any unexpected expenses I should be able to save around $1000/mo. However, and this is the big one, our house has been a total money pit since we bought it 18 months ago. I have spent close to $17,000 on unexpected repairs and expect another $8,000 or so in the spring for a new roof. I dislilke the house for various reasons (will provide them in detail if requested) and would like to sell it. I will probably recoup our down payment but not the ~$25k I will have into it. Should I consider selling to a.) Save money monthly (though downgrading to a 1 bed nice apartment in our area won't save us much (maybe $400/mo) and I will miss our 2 car garage) and b.) Get the money out to pay off my student loans?
  • I have been thinking over the last 2 months that one opportunity to start cutting back on my spending and saving more could be in my car. I put nothing down when I bought my VW GTI new and got a good deal on it (it was a 2017 leftover in 2018) so I currently owe only $1000 more than I will get to trade it in to a dealer (I have considered a private party sale but the prospect of borrowing money from family then dealing with selling a fairly valuable car on Craigslist intimidated me). I was hoping to get a little more for it but as it's close to the end of the year that's the best offer I'm going to get. When I first concocted this plan in October they were willing to give me $500 more for it but alas I waited 2 months and here we are...

    Part of the reason I waited this long is because I was looking for a Mustachian car that was actually in good shape. Cars <$5,000 are usually beat and need a long list of repairs. I have since found a very nice man local to me who is selling his 2006 Lexus RX330 for a very reasonable $4,400. It needs tires but nothing else (I am pretty mechanically inclined and trust my own inspection more than many mechanics). He's the 2nd owner of the car, having had it since 2014 and is selling because he is moving back to India for 2 years to care for his aging parents. He has the full roster of maintenance records even from the 1st owner and has always maintained it at the local new car Lexus dealer. The car has 150,000 miles but drives beautifully (I should note my VW is under the new car warranty and has 17,000 miles). I drive around 10,000 miles / year so even if I kept the used Lexus for 3 years it wouldn't hit the 200,000 mile mark.

    I have calculated the Net Present Value of trading in my VW for this Lexus as ranging from $3,000 - $5,000 in today's money (based on varying the expected yearly maintenance and repairs of the Lexus from $750 - $1,500). I figured in 3.5 years it will still be worth around $4,000 as it is done depreciating and a very desirable car. Besides a positive NPV benefit it would free up around $550 in monthly cash flow and would pay back (based on the savings not the total cash flow) in 15 months. Based on the facts presented, in your expert opinions is it worth it (would you do this in my position)?
  • Is there anything else i can do to maximize my Mustachianism besides the usual cutting discretionary spending, which I plan to take a serious look at?

Thank you so much for your feedback!
« Last Edit: December 13, 2019, 11:41:54 AM by weatherman07 »

GoCubsGo

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Re: Case Study: Debt Diet Needed?
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2019, 10:51:51 AM »
A few thoughts:

- You are off to a great start for your age. Owning a home and having a 401K at 26 will put you ahead of the curve.
- I would definitely consider the car swap.  Definitely prepare for normal wear and tear items to be replaced as the age alone will dictate some things will definitely start to go (my wife's old SUV that was a 2007 model cost us about $800 a year in random things that needed replacement due to age (shocks, catalytic converter, water pump, headlights, etc.). 
- You already put the money into the house which means you may have front loaded the pain and have years of minor maintenance bills ahead.  Why sell now. It sounds like a huge downgrade for $400 a month.  Also, if you get married and have kids you wouldn't have to move.  Which leads me to my next thought.
- If you plan on potentially getting married to your girlfriend, it's never to early to get on the same page regarding finance issues and long term plans.  Dual incomes if she if frugal as well can really accelerate your FIRE.

Keep up the good work and up your savings rate and you should be on track for a solid retirement.

wellactually

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Re: Case Study: Debt Diet Needed?
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2019, 10:55:59 AM »
Questions:

Do you have two cars for just you, the BMW and the VW? How do you use each vehicle?

You list a nice 401k balance for your age, but no contributions in your pre-tax deductions. Is that something you're actively contributing to, or is your employer contributing or something?

When you come back and update your expenses, could you consider the following unlisted categories: cell phones, subscription services, and restaurants. These are low-hanging fruit for cutting expenses.

What is the interest rate on your car and mortgage and what are the balances and individual rates on the student loans?

Concerns:

You bought a car last year that now you don't want. You bought a house 18 months ago that now you don't want. Maybe getting rid of both is the right answer for your situation, but it's a little concerning that you are making such big purchases and then changing your mind so soon after. We don't know enough about you or your thought process here, just something that stuck out to me. And I feel drawn to say that maybe you should spend more time thinking about a purchase before you make it. But hopefully that's part of what you're doing now!

You are a car guy. That seems to be a big hurdle for you. You are talking about selling your house after less than two years to use equity to pay off loans, but never mention the $7k "asset" sitting in your garage which could knock out 1/5 of your loans tomorrow. You claim that $5000 cars are usually beat and need a lot of repairs. This is not a factual statement. And now you're considering turning your new car over to the dealer to buy a name brand Lexus with 150k miles. I just did an autotrader search for used cars up to $6000 in Hartford and found some great options. There is a 2009 Hyundai Elantra for $5995 and 62k miles. As the driver of a 2010 elantra with 140k miles, I can say it's a great car and with due diligence this one could be found to be completely sound. It's a red herring to say all cheaper or older cars are bad news.

I'm not saying you should sell your house (from what we know now, I'd probably be against selling), but it's concerning that you see a potential $400/month savings as not much in the context of housing, but highly value that amount of savings elsewhere.

What repairs did you not expect to have to do on the house? Was there no way to expect them? The roof cost coming up is something you probably knew about from an inspection going in. Did something change about the house to change your mind (besides the expenses last year) or do you just feel differently about it now?

LifeHappens

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Re: Case Study: Debt Diet Needed?
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2019, 11:18:30 AM »
Concerns:

You bought a car last year that now you don't want. You bought a house 18 months ago that now you don't want. Maybe getting rid of both is the right answer for your situation, but it's a little concerning that you are making such big purchases and then changing your mind so soon after. We don't know enough about you or your thought process here, just something that stuck out to me.
I share these concerns. You say you bought a house because the cost of living in your city is relatively low. That's... not a great reason to buy a house. And now you say you don't like the house and want to sell it. It's okay to make mistakes, but real estate transaction costs are very high so it's worth thinking about *why* you made a mistake with the purchase and ensure it doesn't happen again.

The house and car are your major issues right now. I don't particularly care if you sell the car or keep it. It's far more important to understand your own decision making processes and improve them in ways that set you up for success in the long term.

ysette9

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Re: Case Study: Debt Diet Needed?
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2019, 11:27:06 AM »
First, I feel your pain of separating from a GTI. I have a 2015 that I love driving. That said, I bought it used when it came off of a lease and our net worth is north of $2M. You aren’t quite there yet so you are correct that reducing your car costs is important for allowing you room to save and invest.

I think dumping the GTI is the right move. I’d also dump the BMW if it isn’t up to being a commuter car. You are right that a used Japanese car is probably a good move. I can’t say whether that particular car is right for you but there should be no shortage of decent used cars under $5000.

weatherman07

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Re: Case Study: Debt Diet Needed?
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2019, 02:04:03 PM »
Thank you all for your feedback. I realized I missed adding my 401(k) contribution and so I modified my first post accordingly.

I am having a very hard time deciding on the car issue. And there's unfortunately a time constraint w/ both the dealer who is willing to buy my GTI from me and the man selling the Lexus. Since I am so torn I will probably pass on the opportunity to sell the car as it doesn't sound like doing so will affect my ultimate outcome all that much and I'm a little worried I might come to regret it. Ultimately I wanted feedback on the logic of me trading in my GTI with it's associated actual cost and value for a used car <$5000 (make and model agnostic). I mentioned the Lexus purely because that has been the most viable option I have come across so far (I know it's not a Mustachian vehicle per se as it is a luxury SUV but it's also fully depreciated unlike the Hyundai example quoted above).

I'll admit I am a "car guy". I have always been and so I do value putting some money towards cars more than your average Joe. Exhibit A would be the BMW. I have it purely as a pleasure vehicle. It can in theory be daily driven but it's in pristine shape for a 23 year old car and so I wouldn't want to ruin it by driving it every day in foul weather...etc. It costs nearly nothing to hold onto (insurance is $25/mo and it's actually appreciating in value) and I do all my own maintenance and repairs on it so besides taking up a bit of capital, it is not doing me much financial harm. Interesting in alternate opinions on this if there are any.

To answer whoever asked about the interest rate on my car, it is very low (2.65%). The interest rates on my student loans are a bit more complicated but they top out at 5.5% (this is for the largest piece of ~ $12K). As for other expenses I will be sure to outline  those once I have a chance to do a detailed analysis of my spending. I don't spend anything on cell phone as mine is through my mom. Most of my disposable income over the last 18 months has gone towards the house, plus a trip to Europe that cost around $2000.

Later tonight when I have some more time I will provide the reasons why I am inclined to sell the house in more detail. On one hand, I agree with your observations in that I tend to regret purchases after the fact, be they big or small. Only issue is big purchases are very illiquid / have high transaction costs and tend to be hard to undo! I am easily swayed by people's opinions (in the case of the house that of my girlfriend and her father who provided some "sage advice" during the negotiation process).
« Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 02:12:08 PM by weatherman07 »

mistymoney

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Re: Case Study: Debt Diet Needed?
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2019, 06:51:02 AM »
why do you dislike the house so much?

Is this a recent purchase? and how did it end up wrong?

Nick_Miller

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Re: Case Study: Debt Diet Needed?
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2019, 07:32:31 AM »
Congrats on being in pretty good shape for a person your age! You have a bright future for sure. I'll be curious to hear about the reasons you don't like the house, as that seems to be really the central issue right now.

I guess I will push back on something you said in your original post. You said the savings of $1600 (mortgage) versus $1200 (renting apartment) was only $1200. But is it really only that? (hint...I think the difference is MUCH MUCH wider)

1) Does your $1600 figure include property taxes and home insurance?
2) How much have you spent buying stuff for your house that you didn't previously need? (lawnmower, landscaping tools, tools period, outdoor decorations, furniture to "fill up" the home, etc)
3) How much more of the above will you end up purchasing in the next couple of years if you keep the home?
4) Does the location of your home versus the potential apartment affect your commute or overall driving either way?
5) You mention $25K in costs you've already incurred that you don't think you will get back. I don't understand that. Why not? Even if they were essential repairs, wouldn't that mean that you got the house at a steal, and thus would be able to sell higher than your purchase price?
6) And then there's a $8K new roof.
7) And then there's the time (which is worth money!) that you've spent on the home, which you wouldn't have done with an apartment. You could pursue a side hustle with your newly found free time, for example.
8) And I'm guessing your utilities are higher than they would be in a one-bedroom apartment too.

I don't expect individual answers to all of these points or anything; I'm just trying to argue that owning a home raises costs in so many other ways than just the mortgage payment versus rent payment calculation. Some people your age have run the numbers and determined that they're better off renting, and sinking all the money they would have sunk into a house into non-real estate investments and side businesses.

I'm betting my lunch that your net savings a month would be a hell of lot more than $400.

I'm not saying there's a right or wrong answer for you or anyone else. I'm just tossing out things to think about so that you're comparing the true savings of renting versus owning.


« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 07:36:07 AM by Nick_Miller »

six-car-habit

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Re: Case Study: Debt Diet Needed?
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2019, 10:15:39 AM »
 Keep the Gti - gets better mpg than the Lexus, more fun to drive, will last longer.
 Keep the BMW - if you are a true "car-guy" , you will replace it with something else if you sold it, therefore more transaction costs - sales tax, maint items, etc.
 Pay 1 extra house payment per year, should reduce mortgage time by 7 years.
 Put your 'betterment' savings towards the roof. It's 'better' to stay dry for the next 30 years - potential buyers will want a new roof or price adjustment.
 Work on aggresively paying down the student loans, once  you get that 35K paid off, then work on GTi payoff.
 Apartments rarely come with garages and yards.

weatherman07

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Re: Case Study: Debt Diet Needed?
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2019, 10:30:52 AM »
why do you dislike the house so much?

Is this a recent purchase? and how did it end up wrong?

Here's a little background on the house (get ready it's long!):
When I was 22, I was living in an apartment with a friend from college. It was costing us $1500/mo ($750 ea) plus utilities to live in an average new-construction apartment building. It was definitely for young professionals, was in a high end town and had amenities like central air conditioning but was by no means considered a "luxury" building. I realized at some point that we could spend effectively the same monthly if I bought a house, and in the meantime I would be able to build equity and have a little more space. I found a small house in the same town, my dad helped me fix it up and I got two roommates (and they effectively paid my mortgage for me!). Fast forward 2 years, and my girlfriend had moved in and the roommates had moved out. I wasn't smitten with that house because it was 3 houses removed from a main road and thus I could hear some traffic noise. Also the yard was very small and had no room for outdoor entertaining. Lastly, the garage only fit 1 car, and I wanted to get into some weekend car DIY stuff (hence the old BMW mentioned earlier). So we made the determination to either a.) cash out the ~$60K in equity in the house and buy a cheap condo while she finished grad school or b.) rent an apartment or c.) buy another house that could theoretically be our home for the permanent future.

In the end I was convinced by my parents that buying a condo is a bad investment and that I should either rent an apartment or buy another house. We started the house search in earnest during the most competitive time of the year (we wanted to list the other house when it was guaranteed to sell but this put us in the unfortunate position of needing to search for a replacement at that time). Due to my girlfriend's grad school status I set our budget at a max of $250,000, ideally wanting to be closer to $225,000. Either way our mortgage payment would be going up since I only paid $180,000 for the previous house that I was now selling for $250,000. $250,000 does not buy a palace in our area - it buys a 1,500 - 2,000 sq ft mostly older (as in pre-1965) home - for context. We put offers on two homes that were in "multiple offer situations" (realtor speak) and didn't get them. Finally a house in our price range, in a desirable area, popped on the market the Wednesday before Memorial Day. I went to look at it without my girlfriend before we left for a weekend camping trip to Vermont. It was nicely decorated by the previous owners though I did notice the landscaping needed some attention. The large windows on the southern exposure was a plus, as was the quiet nearly 1 acre yard on a cul-de-sac street. My realtor told me it seemed like a good deal and that he thought there was some buffer room to make improvements without losing the money invested. At the time he also suggested i consider putting an offer around $15K below asking price to gauge the sellers' negotiability.

That weekend while we were camping in Vermont we got a call from my realtor telling us he had heard from the listing agent that another offer had come in, and we would have to move quickly to put in an offer if we wanted the house. He assured me that the asking price was very fair and suggested I go for a full price offer (a reversal of his previous guidance to put a low offer in). Lo and behold we got the house. After we came back from Vermont I took my GF to see the house and she immediately fell in love with it (she initially had put a lot of trust in my judgement).

Fast forward three weeks and it's time for the home inspection. It's the first time I'd been to the house since taking my girlfriend for another 20 minute visit on Memorial Day to get her approval. At this point the sellers had started un-decorating the house and packing boxes for their impending move to North Carolina. Immediately the place seemed a little shabbier. It had also been rainy and the house smelled damp and musty, which seemed to be emanating from the basement. My allergies started acting up after being down in the basement for a while with the inspector.

As I followed the home inspector around the house my brain starting tallying up all the things i would have to fix and improvements I would want to make after we moved in. I noticed the sump pump in the basement, the worn finish on the kitchen cabinets, the messy caulk in the bathroom shower stall, the sloppy paint job in the living room, the dented garage doors. The inspector also pointed out a number of issues such as some dodgy wiring, poorly plumbed sump pump, old roof, and some wood rot on the shed that was attached to the back of the garage.

I was already a little leery having got accepted at full price and coupled with the work needed I started having second thoughts. As soon as I left the house and went back to work I explained the situation to my friend. He suggested I either ask for a huge concession from the sellers or back out entirely. I called my GF and told her that the house was bothering my allergies and needed more work than I had originally thought.

Now here I must explain that the summer of 2018 was possibly the most stressful summer of our lives. Around the time we were looking for houses my GF's dad had been diagnosed with Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma. By Memorial Day we weren't sure what stage it was, essentially what his prognosis was going to be. In hindsight it was a very, very bad time to upend our lives and sell a house but that was in the works long before his cancer scare began (by the way he's in remission now, thank goodness). Either way my GF was under a tremendous amount of stress and probably couldn't be entirely rational. When I was explaining to her that I was considering backing out she got very upset. She said the issues sounded minor, her heart was set on that house, and either way "Where were we going to go? Our house is already under contract to be sold!"

Next thing I know I get a call from her dad. He made light of the issues, saying a "House is a shelter over your head, not an investment" and "[She] needs some stability, do you think you really need to back out?" Basically I allowed myself to be talked into going forward with the deal and paying the second deposit. We did get a concession of $4,000 from the sellers in regards to certain items that came up on the inspection report. Normally I would have sought the advice of my own dad, but he happened to be out of town on vacation through the entire thing. As it turns out, once he came back and had the chance to go take a look he was vehemently opposed to me buying the house but I was several weeks into the transaction at this point and was not sure if it was worth it to blow up my relationship with all the stakeholders (this is my biggest regret - up until the day of closing I wanted to call off the deal but with everything going on I couldn't build up the courage to do so).

Why I want to sell: (get ready for a story that is probably so crazy it's unbelievable, but trust me it is 100% true)
Another few weeks go by and we move in. Immediately I'm bothered by the constant musty smell that invades the house every time it's damp outside. The worn finish on the kitchen cabinets itches at my brain. My mom came to help with the landscaping one day and summed up the place pretty well, "You need to clean it up around the edges." At this point I might sound like a perfectionist - I don't deny that, I like things to be crisp and clean though I'm not bothered by things that are considered out of date. I think anyone would be irritated to feel like they rode the crazy train from a perfectly buttoned up, albeit small, house to a house that had fundamental annoying problems from Day 1. The day of closing, on the final walk-through we found that the sunroom had been invaded by black carpenter ants ($). Ants continued to be an issue for the rest of the summer necessitating hiring a professional exterminator service ($$$). This was also a harbinger of rotten wood issues to come. Two weeks after we move, a 90 ft pine tree that was planted alongside the driveway got hit by lightning and struck the side of the garage on its way down, also shorting out a garage door opener and the crucial effluent tank pump that keeps our septic system operating ($$$). Later that summer we voluntarily spent some time remodeling the filthy tile floor with un-cleanable grout in the kitchen and painted the cabinets ($). Early that winter brought an ice dam on the roof that stained the ceiling in one of the bedrooms ($). In January I came home from work after a rain storm to find 5 inches of water in our entire basement caused by a failed sump pump, necessitating a pump-out by the fire department and an insurance claim, and leading to a total tear out of the 1970s paneling in the finished side of the basement ($$$ - albeit paid by insurance). In February to avoid the potential for future issues caused by the massive pine trees, I paid $5,000 (the balance of the insurance settlement) to have them removed. In March we discover that the concrete front porch had not been properly flashed to the house, leading to a month-long DIY project to jackhammer the porch, remove the aluminum siding on the entire front face of the house, and have the rotten wall structure repaired from the outside ($$$$). I was advised that once aluminum siding is removed, it cannot be put back but I had no choice in order to fix the rotten wall studs and sill plate. Options were to replace with new aluminum (apparently very expensive and hard to come by and would not match what we had) or replace with vinyl (also would not match). Instead I opted to strip the house of all the 1970s aluminum siding and restore the original cedar shake-style siding that was dormant underneath. My step-father and I stripped the entire house ourselves over the course of 2 months, but I had to hire a painter to replace some damaged siding and do the finish work ($$$$). Ancillary projects that stemmed from the siding removal include the replacement of a warped side entry door, replacement of the two garage doors (were very damaged by the previous owners) and the demolition of the hopelessly rotted storage shed that was built as a lean-to against the garage ($$$$ many thousands). Even though I did nearly all of the labor myself and with the help of family this still cost me thousands of dollars in essentially unplanned repairs. Now we are dealing with a roof flashing leak that was exposed by the removal of the aluminum siding and the only way to fix it properly is to replace the 21 year old roof. Coincidentally with that project I also had to dig a 125' trench in my backyard to properly route the discharge from the sump pump (something I had no idea was going to be as big of a project as it was when I was buying the house - everyone made light of the sump pump). My yard has a water table that is only 18" down and very poor drainage so the town would not approve a traditional dry well. Nor do we have storm drains to discharge the nearly 3,000 gallons / day (!!!) that gets pumped in the springtime. The only option was to dig a trench into the woods behind the house and discharge the pump there ($$$).

All in all I am utterly disgusted by the house. I'm mad at my realtor for being overly optimistic and doing his part to convince me to "go easy on the sellers when asking for concessions" and to go ahead with the deal. I don't blame my girlfriend or her father as they were going through a lot and aren't as knowledgeable about houses as I am.  I mostly blame myself for being naive, for not doing my due diligence and for putting my financial future in the trust of others. I wasted every free hour for the entire summer of 2019 working on the house and still the musty basement smell is something that I cannot eliminate. The house was not built with "soffits" where the roof intersects with the walls, so it is extra prone to ice damming in the winter and other forms of water infiltration at the drip edge, not to mention water streams down the windows when it rains. The foundation only has around a 5" reveal above the soil level, so when it rains water splashes dirt onto my precious cedar siding, leaving it susceptible to rot. Finally, there is no insulation in the walls (typical for a house built in the 1940s) so we have to bundle up and deal with being cold all winter (not wanting to keep the heat above 65 degrees for cost reasons).

Last fall, before the rotten wall reared its ugly head I consulted with three new realtors on the possibility of selling the house as-is at that point. They were all shocked I paid $245,000 for the house when I did in the condition it was and said they would not be comfortable listing it for more than $220,000. At the time the prospect of losing $25,000 before realtors' fees was too much to bear so I decided to keep it (within the next 2 months the basement flooded and I had to rip off the front porch). Because I know someone will ask about this - yes, it did appraise for more than $245,000 and no I have no legal case against any party. I consulted with an attorney who told me that the appraisal does seem questionable but because they technically work for the bank I can not bring liability against them. He said I could try to sue the sellers for lack of disclosure but it would be hard to prove they deliberately misled us. He said my realtor is really the most at fault but isn't liable for anything either.

So now that I've prettied up the exterior, remodeled the kitchen, and dealt with the sump pump properly I could possibly foresee getting $250,000 if I sold the house. Obviously I am still looking at a significant financial loss via realtors' fees as well as the cash I have been forced to invest into the home since buying it. I have considered the possibility of renting the house out for at least a year prior to selling it to be allowed to claim the loss on my federal income taxes, but not sure if the risk of renter damage / issues occurring that year outweigh the potential ~30% tax savings on the loss (advice here is also welcome).

Apologies for the length of this post but since most people were focused on my desire to sell the house I figured the detail would shed some light on my thought process and the reasons why I feel I would be justified in dumping the place for a loss come springtime.

I also hope that this story can be somewhat of a warning to other young people who are inexperienced in homebuying to really do your due diligence - even though the various actors in the process seem like they have your best interests at heart - they don't! They are in it simply to make money.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2019, 11:44:50 AM by weatherman07 »

weatherman07

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Re: Case Study: Debt Diet Needed?
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2019, 10:37:01 AM »
Congrats on being in pretty good shape for a person your age! You have a bright future for sure. I'll be curious to hear about the reasons you don't like the house, as that seems to be really the central issue right now.

I guess I will push back on something you said in your original post. You said the savings of $1600 (mortgage) versus $1200 (renting apartment) was only $1200. But is it really only that? (hint...I think the difference is MUCH MUCH wider)

1) Does your $1600 figure include property taxes and home insurance?
2) How much have you spent buying stuff for your house that you didn't previously need? (lawnmower, landscaping tools, tools period, outdoor decorations, furniture to "fill up" the home, etc)
3) How much more of the above will you end up purchasing in the next couple of years if you keep the home?
4) Does the location of your home versus the potential apartment affect your commute or overall driving either way?
5) You mention $25K in costs you've already incurred that you don't think you will get back. I don't understand that. Why not? Even if they were essential repairs, wouldn't that mean that you got the house at a steal, and thus would be able to sell higher than your purchase price?
6) And then there's a $8K new roof.
7) And then there's the time (which is worth money!) that you've spent on the home, which you wouldn't have done with an apartment. You could pursue a side hustle with your newly found free time, for example.
8) And I'm guessing your utilities are higher than they would be in a one-bedroom apartment too.

I don't expect individual answers to all of these points or anything; I'm just trying to argue that owning a home raises costs in so many other ways than just the mortgage payment versus rent payment calculation. Some people your age have run the numbers and determined that they're better off renting, and sinking all the money they would have sunk into a house into non-real estate investments and side businesses.

I'm betting my lunch that your net savings a month would be a hell of lot more than $400.

I'm not saying there's a right or wrong answer for you or anyone else. I'm just tossing out things to think about so that you're comparing the true savings of renting versus owning.

The $1600 is all-in (inclusive of tax and insurance).

You are right on the ancillary costs though. If you tally up what I've spent in 18 months in maintenance, tools, repairs...etc it is over $1,000/mo and that's before factoring in the impending roof project. That's one reason why an apartment is becoming more and more attractive.

As for the $25,000 I didn't get back, see my latest (very long) post. That might clear things up.

stashja

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Re: Case Study: Debt Diet Needed?
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2019, 06:45:16 AM »
We have a beautifully running 1998 car (rare enough don't want to stay here) that we bought for $2000 and a 1980s VW Golf that was less than that. You can find good cars for little money if you're willing to read many Craigslist sites and drive 3 hours to collect them.

weatherman07

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Re: Case Study: Debt Diet Needed?
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2019, 07:05:06 AM »
We have a beautifully running 1998 car (rare enough don't want to stay here) that we bought for $2000 and a 1980s VW Golf that was less than that. You can find good cars for little money if you're willing to read many Craigslist sites and drive 3 hours to collect them.

Oh yes. Been there, done that. My only point above is it is difficult to find a good car for <$5,000 (i.e. you have to be willing to do what you suggest). The key is to stick to cars with 1-2 previous owners only, and then make sure it was properly maintained and all the typical failure points have already been done, or budget for it.

OtherJen

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Re: Case Study: Debt Diet Needed?
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2019, 07:24:47 AM »
Congrats on being in pretty good shape for a person your age! You have a bright future for sure. I'll be curious to hear about the reasons you don't like the house, as that seems to be really the central issue right now.

I guess I will push back on something you said in your original post. You said the savings of $1600 (mortgage) versus $1200 (renting apartment) was only $1200. But is it really only that? (hint...I think the difference is MUCH MUCH wider)

1) Does your $1600 figure include property taxes and home insurance?
2) How much have you spent buying stuff for your house that you didn't previously need? (lawnmower, landscaping tools, tools period, outdoor decorations, furniture to "fill up" the home, etc)
3) How much more of the above will you end up purchasing in the next couple of years if you keep the home?
4) Does the location of your home versus the potential apartment affect your commute or overall driving either way?
5) You mention $25K in costs you've already incurred that you don't think you will get back. I don't understand that. Why not? Even if they were essential repairs, wouldn't that mean that you got the house at a steal, and thus would be able to sell higher than your purchase price?
6) And then there's a $8K new roof.
7) And then there's the time (which is worth money!) that you've spent on the home, which you wouldn't have done with an apartment. You could pursue a side hustle with your newly found free time, for example.
8) And I'm guessing your utilities are higher than they would be in a one-bedroom apartment too.

I don't expect individual answers to all of these points or anything; I'm just trying to argue that owning a home raises costs in so many other ways than just the mortgage payment versus rent payment calculation. Some people your age have run the numbers and determined that they're better off renting, and sinking all the money they would have sunk into a house into non-real estate investments and side businesses.

I'm betting my lunch that your net savings a month would be a hell of lot more than $400.

I'm not saying there's a right or wrong answer for you or anyone else. I'm just tossing out things to think about so that you're comparing the true savings of renting versus owning.

The $1600 is all-in (inclusive of tax and insurance).

You are right on the ancillary costs though. If you tally up what I've spent in 18 months in maintenance, tools, repairs...etc it is over $1,000/mo and that's before factoring in the impending roof project. That's one reason why an apartment is becoming more and more attractive.

As for the $25,000 I didn't get back, see my latest (very long) post. That might clear things up.

When did you receive your roof estimates? We got estimates in 2017, budgeted $7000-$8000 for our roof, and then learned from a new series of estimates earlier this year that the cost would actually be $10,000-$11,000 due to increased materials (tariffs) and labor costs. We ended up paying approx. $10,500. This is not to scare you but to give you a heads up.

For us, home ownership has been far more expensive and less carefree than apartment living. I certainly understand wanting to sell.

Nick_Miller

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Re: Case Study: Debt Diet Needed?
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2019, 08:19:48 AM »
OP, only you can decide what's best for you, but after reading your epic journey of one sh*itty experience after another, I would 100% understand you wanting to just get rid of that house and have a fresh start. Now I wouldn't go on tilt or anything, but even if the frequency of issues slows, which it probably will, it will still continue in some form or the other. And it's pretty clear you have a lot of anger and frustration built up from the whole thing.

It might be freeing to let it go (but for the very best price you can get) and just live a downsized existence for a few years in a small apartment with no maintenance, no repairs, no yard work, and more time for your relationship and for yourself.

Biggest question, car guy. Can you live with no garage and no place to tinker on a car?

LifeHappens

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Re: Case Study: Debt Diet Needed?
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2019, 08:40:41 AM »
Biggest question, car guy. Can you live with no garage and no place to tinker on a car?
You could probably rent a garage for a few years until you're ready to dive into home ownership again.

OP, your home ownership story is just about everyone's nightmare. You admit you let yourself get talked into a transaction you didn't feel good about from almost the start. Understandable given everything else going on with you and your family at the time.

It's okay. People make mistakes. Even Mr. Money Mustache himself had some bad real estate deals. See https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/02/01/mr-money-mustaches-big-mistake/ for details.

Dee18

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Re: Case Study: Debt Diet Needed?
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2019, 08:53:10 AM »
I had a historic home I grew tired of managing/repairing.  Friends still ask me, “why did you sell your fabulous Craftsman bungalow?”  I am happily renting the top half of a newly constructed duplex.  If a house feels like a burden, sell it.  And then rent for a couple years until you are sure exactly where you want to live and what your combined income will be.

wellactually

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Re: Case Study: Debt Diet Needed?
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2019, 09:30:43 AM »
You've got a lot of options. Answers to your questions...

1 - Sell the house. You clearly hate it and never should have bought it. Don't use the same realtor!!!!! Find someone who can give you a better understanding of the market so that any money you put in between now and putting it on the market will give you the best return. You're going to pay for the roof one way or another, either in reduced sales cost/concession or cash next year. It sounds like you think you have the equity but not the cash. You could even advertise the house with a listed credit for roof replacement. But you also may need to come to terms with the fact that you might eat even more of a loss because you overpaid.

2 - After you sell the house, you could pay off the VW and then do a private sale more easily to get the most. You don't have to have another car lined up since you've got the BMW as a second car. Maybe just wait until winter weather is over and then you can take your time finding a good buyer for the VW and then finding a used vehicle that meets your standards which you can pay for in cash. Even if you decide to sell to the dealer, I'm not sure why you're acting like you have to do that this month even though the offer was $500 lower because of the time of year. You have some leverage here. Your artificial deadlines confuse me.

3 - Other things you can do to be mustachian...

You never updated the budget, so we cannot really comment on your other spending. I mentioned it previously, but if I were you I'd not keep a second car. Then you could pay off the higher interest student loans. Even if you don't do an aggressive loan payoff, it would then free up cash flow for an IRA/other savings. I'm a bit heavier on debt payoff than the Investment Order official suggestions because I personally don't like debt and other cash flow encumbrances. Also all our student loans were 6.8%, so it hurt a lot more. Anyway, I don't think you're going to part with the second car regardless!

My biggest advice for your longterm mustachianism is to start now having conversations with your girlfriend about your future goals. She's about to go through a major life change again with a job search next year. You've maybe had some conversations already in this arena, but your explanation of how the past two home purchases have gone also indicate that many big decisions are being made without first assessing what you both prioritize. Are you both completely committed to the community you live in and will that work for both your career goals? Do you both want to be homeowners and what would you value in a home? If so, would your next home purchase be joint, or just you buying it again? How will you split your living costs once she is out of school and working? If you spend any time around here, you'll see that not having conversations about these things

Laura33

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Re: Case Study: Debt Diet Needed?
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2019, 09:53:35 AM »
Since I am so torn I will probably pass on the opportunity to sell the car as it doesn't sound like doing so will affect my ultimate outcome all that much

Where in the world did you come up with that conclusion?  You are spending 10% of your gross income on car stuff!!  Between the loan, the insurance, the gas, and the maintenance, that is a huge chunk of money.  Not to mention that you are hanging on to a second car that you don't even trust enough to use as an everyday driver, which you could easily sell to cover most of the roof, or a big chunk of your loans, etc. 

It seems to me that all of your decisions are very emotional ones.  Your housing saga (starting from the beginning) doesn't sound like a plan so much as a "seemed like a good idea at the time," and your current purchase was clearly driven more by the need to make other people happy than any kind of analysis.  And now you are angry because your inner voice is saying "I told you so" about the house, so now you want to dump it because you're frustrated and want to be done with it.  So what happens next?  You dump it in frustration, happily move into that smaller apartment, and then in another year find it's way too small and start noticing all the things that frustrate you there and start looking to buy again?  Similarly, you have two "fun" cars that you love, and when you even consider selling the one, you are looking at a high-end-brand replacement, because that's what you want and feel like you deserve. 

If you want to make a smart financial decision, you need to put those emotions aside.  For the house:  ignore the past unexpected costs -- they are gone.  Where are you with future costs?  Other than the roof, do you pretty much have the problems tackled that you need to?  If that's the case, it might be best to stay put vs. jumping into yet another "seems like a good idea" situation that may not suit you another year or two from now.  Or it may not be -- but you won't be in a position to make that call until you can get your brain out of that emotional, reactive state.  For the car, put the status bit aside and start looking for econoboxes that you can use for your commute.  You want reliability, you don't need a Lexus -- a Toyota Corolla's engine is built by the same people, and it retails well below $20K brand new.  Honestly, there's no reason you need two fun cars -- even one is a huge luxury.*  If you're in love with the Beemer and are willing to deal with locking your $7K up in it instead of using it for a roof, then fine, keep it -- but make your commutermobile as cheap as possible.

Finally, be a little kinder on yourself.  You're 26.  You've made some kinda dumb, emotional decisions, sure.  But guess what:  so has every other 26-yr-old.  That's how you learn.  But to learn, you need to stay still long enough that you can settle your mind and figure out what actually makes you happy (vs. what sounds like it will), and make a plan to get there.  Maybe you really aren't an old-house or fixer-upper kinda guy.  And that's fine.  But honestly, I don't think you can possibly know that yet, because you're still so angry at letting yourself get talked into this house.  So just chill for a bit.  You're fine right now -- you make a good salary, you have manageable debt, and you have a lot of leeway in your budget to increase your savings once you get your wants and needs in order.  Start whacking at the obvious excess (the car and the extra $1K that disappears who-knows-where every month), and take the time to think and plan a little more before making any longer-term decisions.

*I feel compelled to add that I am a huge car guy, so I get it.  But you need to put your needs above your wants.  Life is an "or," not an "and"; every dollar you spend on multiple fun cars now is a dollar that is not at work getting you to your financial goals.

weatherman07

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Re: Case Study: Debt Diet Needed?
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2019, 12:12:32 PM »
Biggest question, car guy. Can you live with no garage and no place to tinker on a car?
You could probably rent a garage for a few years until you're ready to dive into home ownership again.

OP, your home ownership story is just about everyone's nightmare. You admit you let yourself get talked into a transaction you didn't feel good about from almost the start. Understandable given everything else going on with you and your family at the time.

It's okay. People make mistakes. Even Mr. Money Mustache himself had some bad real estate deals. See https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/02/01/mr-money-mustaches-big-mistake/ for details.

Thanks for the kind words. Yes it was a mistake and I am confident I have learned enough life lessons in the last two years to never let it happen again.

Since I live deep in the CT suburbia there are actually plenty of attractive rental options that have attached garages. A lot of people buy townhouse-style condos and rent them out and there are even large professionally-managed apartment complexes that have garage options. I will pay a little more, sure, but I still think I can find one around the $1400-$1600/mo range, which is in line with our current house payment.

Quote
I had a historic home I grew tired of managing/repairing.  Friends still ask me, “why did you sell your fabulous Craftsman bungalow?”  I am happily renting the top half of a newly constructed duplex.  If a house feels like a burden, sell it.  And then rent for a couple years until you are sure exactly where you want to live and what your combined income will be.

I am beginning to agree with this 100%!

Quote
1 - Sell the house. You clearly hate it and never should have bought it. Don't use the same realtor!!!!! Find someone who can give you a better understanding of the market so that any money you put in between now and putting it on the market will give you the best return. You're going to pay for the roof one way or another, either in reduced sales cost/concession or cash next year. It sounds like you think you have the equity but not the cash. You could even advertise the house with a listed credit for roof replacement. But you also may need to come to terms with the fact that you might eat even more of a loss because you overpaid.

I am pretty sure I'm going to try to list it For Sale By Owner starting in early March that way I could potentially save on the 6% realtor fee. If it doesn't sell by mid-April I will hire a [new] realtor and try to have it sold by the start of the summer. Around here we have a pretty poor real estate market where home prices have not appreciated in 10 years and pretty much the only time to sell a house is in spring.

Quote
2 - After you sell the house, you could pay off the VW and then do a private sale more easily to get the most. You don't have to have another car lined up since you've got the BMW as a second car. Maybe just wait until winter weather is over and then you can take your time finding a good buyer for the VW and then finding a used vehicle that meets your standards which you can pay for in cash. Even if you decide to sell to the dealer, I'm not sure why you're acting like you have to do that this month even though the offer was $500 lower because of the time of year. You have some leverage here. Your artificial deadlines confuse me.

I decided that rushing into a dealership trade was the wrong decision. I have already listed the VW as a private party sale. Let's hope I find a buyer!

Initially I was trying to make a decision this week because I really liked the Lexus as an option and the dealer says once 2020 rolls around my VW will take an instant depreciation hit from being another model year older (BS if you ask me), but his offer was only good for 72 hours from Tuesday. Either way it was a pressure tactic and I realized I was giving in to making emotional decisions again so I took a step back and put the brakes on the whole thing for now.

Quote
You never updated the budget, so we cannot really comment on your other spending. I mentioned it previously, but if I were you I'd not keep a second car. Then you could pay off the higher interest student loans. Even if you don't do an aggressive loan payoff, it would then free up cash flow for an IRA/other savings. I'm a bit heavier on debt payoff than the Investment Order official suggestions because I personally don't like debt and other cash flow encumbrances. Also all our student loans were 6.8%, so it hurt a lot more. Anyway, I don't think you're going to part with the second car regardless!

Budget just updated! At some point I will figure out how to update to yearly vs 2-month averages as I think that will give a better picture of my spending habits. The trip to France and the holiday season definitely increased the Merch. category somewhat.

Quote
It seems to me that all of your decisions are very emotional ones.

This is true. You have given me something to think about. Part of my motivation in joining this forum is to train myself to make more objective decisions (and solicit the advice of knowledgeable Mustachians).

Quote
For the car, put the status bit aside and start looking for econoboxes that you can use for your commute.  You want reliability, you don't need a Lexus -- a Toyota Corolla's engine is built by the same people, and it retails well below $20K brand new.

Fair point. We could debate the Lexus thing until the cows come home... I am not above a Corolla if I can find a well-maintained example for a reasonable cost. Just the other day I looked at a Matrix for only $2500 but it had a lot of maintenance red flags. One thing that's often overlooked is the financial status of the previous owners. People who buy Lexuses (Lexi?) are wealthy generally - they pay for all the required maintenance. Someone who is the 2nd or 3rd owner of a Corolla generally is the opposite (unless they follow this forum of course!). Another thing is I'm 6'2". I don't always fit comfortably into economy cars (something which I am not willing to compromise on given I spend at least 60 mins/day in the car). Take for example the brand-new Honda Fit. Darn I wish I didn't feel like a grown man sitting in a go-kart in that thing!

Thank you everyone for your thoughtful and courteous replies. This is definitely the friendliest forum I have ever encountered! Now that I've updated the budget section with more detail I'm hoping those of you who mentioned it prior could take a second look. I already know where you're going to focus...

LifeHappens

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Re: Case Study: Debt Diet Needed?
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2019, 02:54:34 PM »
Quote
It seems to me that all of your decisions are very emotional ones.

This is true. You have given me something to think about. Part of my motivation in joining this forum is to train myself to make more objective decisions (and solicit the advice of knowledgeable Mustachians).
You might find Stoicism helpful here https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/02/what-is-stoicism-and-how-can-it-turn-your-life-to-solid-gold/. There are several threads on the forum about the philosophy as well.

Brother Esau

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Re: Case Study: Debt Diet Needed?
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2019, 04:22:17 PM »
Quote
It seems to me that all of your decisions are very emotional ones.

This is true. You have given me something to think about. Part of my motivation in joining this forum is to train myself to make more objective decisions (and solicit the advice of knowledgeable Mustachians).
You might find Stoicism helpful here https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/02/what-is-stoicism-and-how-can-it-turn-your-life-to-solid-gold/. There are several threads on the forum about the philosophy as well.

+1 for Stoicism. Has brought me much contentedness

GreenToTheCore

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Re: Case Study: Debt Diet Needed?
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2019, 02:49:19 PM »
You've definitely been through some life lessons.

This is another growth opportunity:
People who buy Lexuses (Lexi?) are wealthy generally - they pay for all the required maintenance. Someone who is the 2nd or 3rd owner of a Corolla generally is the opposite (unless they follow this forum of course!).

I think this statement deserves a second thought. Think hard about why you think the type of car determines the person's effort to care for an item.
One alternative: the type of person determines the person's effort to care for an item, regardless of the cost of the item.