A big F-up: HCP's and cosigning nightmare

[l1l1nw1ld]

Posting here so that there’s some anonymity… and as a lesson for those nice-guys considering or happen to be dating high-conflict personalities..

When I F-up, I F-up BIG. So here’s the story in only a summary of its nightmare glory:

With a bad case of lonely-guy-middle-of-nowhere syndrome, I dated a gal that was in the process of getting a divorce and I found out later she was on parole after a fight with her then husband (red flag #1 and #2 ignored). What an intro, right?? Shortly after we started dating, her ex cut her off and she moved into my place while she got back on her feet (mistake #1? 2?). A few months after that, her ex stopped payments and had her car repossessed since it was only under his name (red flag #3). Her ex was diagnosed as having narcissistic personality disorder in his previous divorce (yay...). Still in the ‘I’m in love’ blindness stage and after a month of convincing, I unfortunately gave in and co-signed a car loan @ ~$6000 and 5.5 years, $125/mo payments (BIG mistake #2). The title is in both of our names, everything else is or should be solely in her name (registration, insurance).

She was doing well for the first few months until her borderline personality disorder (undiagnosed but textbook case!) came out and turned my life into a living nightmare. Having a caretaker personality myself, I tried 'fixing' things at first and had the naïve belief that time and love could make her better. I was so wrong. I broke it off when it got bad and then all the lies, blame, and verbal abuse became so bad that I was having anxiety attacks just coming home and lost 10-15lbs in a short time. She quickly turned to drinking heavily and once off parole and moved out, turned to heavy drugs. She went heavy into drug abuse and started dealing for a while, getting beat up or running from ‘bad people’ in drug-induced paranoia and getting cut-up and bruised like crazy. She’s going bald in spots. (I’m getting an education in things I never wanted through all this). She sold a second car she had been given from her ex's new GF for drug money and bought a somewhat working van in case she had to live out of it in the near future. Said van, however, has no title, plates, registration, insurance, or anything else.

Fast forward a bit, she’s been out of the house for several months, trying to get clean but just wrapped up living with her 3rd boyfriend in the last month. Until recently she kept up on car payments as agreed, as I’m  the only one in her life that has treated her well (i.e. I’m the only obligation that she feels she must stick to). She’s however currently homeless, no job, and obviously no money. She’s living out of the car as of today.

So here’s the question for you all: I want out (obviously) however short of stealing the car back from her I have limited options, none of them pretty. I still care for her and feel bad for her homeless situation she got herself in to and, hoping not to incur violence or property damage from her or whatever guy she sleeps with next, I would like to have a mutually beneficial or neutral agreement, however…. For my own sanity I’m getting desperate for a way out. Options as I see them:

1: Work out with the dealership/loan where I give them a few thousand to not show it on my credit and they repossess the car if they can find it (apparently what her ex did initially).

2: Try to work it with the dealership/loan where I make a large-ish payment and they take me off the loan (heard this can happen but is very rare).

3: Keep pressing the van option, where I pay for registration and such in return for giving the car to me and I take the hit for whatever the difference is between the loan and what I can get for it. (~$2k or thereabouts). Bug's in her ear but it may take more desperation for her to take this option.

4: Keep pressing her to refinance option, however while she’s on drugs (or trying to get clean… not sure) and so hopelessly trying to get back on her feet, not likely to happen without a miracle or another sucker of a boyfriend.

5: Continue to make minimum payments and harp on her monthly to make payments to me until something else happens (jail, miracle, etc.). She’s now one month behind, having recently made up for the previous month.

6. Pay off the loan for my own sanity (~$5k, I have always had more than enough emergency cash for such a thing, at least I did that right) and whatever I can get from her is a bonus.

Am I missing any other options? Advice? Experience in such a situation? Face-punch?

[Livingthedream55]

Sounds like ex girlfriend is into some scary sh*t and knows scary people. I would opt for Option 6 - but only if you can get yourself legally free of this mess - i.e. get your name off the title (perhaps others can chime in on the mechanics and sequence of how to do this and pay off car loan) and confirm your name does not appear anywhere else on any documents related to this car.

Your want your sanity, peace of mind and you want to be legally free of any entanglements with this person and her lifestyle.

IMHO - "That's what the money is for" - money can fix problems and buy peace of mind. You have already learned a major life lesson so I'm not going to face punch you for this.

Get yourself free of this nightmare ASAP.

[Penelope Vandergast]

I agree. Pay it off and get this--and her--out of your life now. Write it off as a hard lesson. And don't try to save/help etc. her anymore, ever, no matter what the story is. Love can't fix this and you can't either. The only one who can make this better is her, and she won't do that until she's ready. You are giving her a car and that's a huge gift that may help her on her road to recovery. (or not)

You obviously have a lot of love to give -- let her go and give it to someone who is capable of returning it. You could be in much better circumstances a year from now both in your love life and financially. (Though, er, if you find yourself continually/only attracted to women who need "help," or who turn out to be psycho, then you might consider a little counseling yourself...Hopefully this was just a one-time mistake though. You're allowed to have that : )

[KittenJoe]

I don't know anything about the financial part but something about the ex girlfriend part- you are a very sweet and caring person, but you know what they say no good deed goes unpunished. At the end of the day it's not your responsibility to fix people. If it were, you'd have your hands full because everybody is fucked up in their own way. It's OK to not be able to fix some body, you don't need to feel bad about that at all because really only they can fix themselves anyway, there's no reason to set out to do something that you literally cannot do unless you can take control of their brain and actions you're pretty much out of luck when it comes to fixing people.

[CrispKale]

Hey sorry this happened to you but thanks for sharing! I'm currently studying relationship counseling and love it when someone is intuitive enough to step back from falling into the victim role to see they also had a part in a breakdown. I can see this in you as you've pointed out ignoring red flags that were trying to get your attention, not gathering enough situational facts before proceeding, your own baggage, etc.
I'll leave a quote I have posted up in my office by Iyanla Vanzant “Every negative experience is teaching you something. Good students study the events, not the people."

As for the car the requirements vary by state and depend how the registration and loan is titled. I used to be loan specialist and have heard of all kinds of life situations. Don't be afraid of contacting your loan officer, they want to work with you and believe me have heard of this before. They will also have the best advice of how to proceed, or how to hire a repo if necessary. The worst thing you can do is wait it out, you already know this has gone far enough off the rails, get it back on track. Good luck and thanks being a nice caring individual!

[hellofindy]

I'm sorry this happened to you. When I was in college, I loaned an ex-boyfriend $5,200 (using my student loans) to pay off a football debt (he explained to me that he had been scammed). Even though we weren't still together, I still cared about him and trusted that he would pay me back. He kept saying how grateful he was, that he would never forget what I did for him, and that he would pay me back as soon as he could. Long story short, he started to miss payments (I asked him to just send me $100 a month until he paid it off), then eventually stopped paying altogether. He still owed me $4,600 when he stopped making payments. I didn't push it because he was on hard times (his father had died, he had a low-paying job with a lot of credit card debt, etc). A number of years passed and I found out that he got off his feet, graduated with a degree in engineering, and got a good paying job, so I tried to reach out to him. He avoided my calls and my emails. By then, the statute of limitation had passed, so I couldn't do anything about it.

In hindsight, here is what I would have done differently: When I loaned him the money, I had a promissory note written up, but I never went through with having him sign it because it felt weird to have to resort to that since I still trusted him. That was a big mistake. To this day, it's one of my biggest money mistakes. I would have asked him to sign it, then taken him to small claims court as soon as it became evident that he wasn't going to pay me back.

It sounds like it may take a while for your ex to get back on her feet, if she ever does. You can try #1 and #2, but I think the most realistic route is #6, unless she agrees to refinance and have your name taken off of the loan. I'm not sure she can even refinance without any evidence of income.

If you take route #6, I would try to get her to sign a promissory note (you can Google an example or if you live in a city that offers pro bono legal services, you can get an attorney to help you draft one up for free) for the value of the car ($5,000). Then pay off the loan and take your name off of the title. What you can do with the promissory note is if she fails to meet her obligations, you can take her to small claims court and have a judgment pass against her. You will likely not be able to collect it anyways, but if she gets a job one day or buys a house (who knows, maybe she'll marry again some day and her new husband buys them a house), you can have her wage garnished or a lien placed on her home. Other than that, you will just have to work harder to make up for that $5,000 and take it as a lesson learned, as I did. Good luck! You are not alone in making such a mistake, so don't be too hard on yourself.

[l1l1nw1ld]

Thanks all for the kind words and advice! Good idea on the promissory note! I'll call the loan officer and see what I can do from there. It's been a journey just getting my old self back and this is the last big thing I need to take care of.

[aperture]

You are fortunate to have escaped so cheap.  Pay the $5K and count yourself very lucky.   In my youth, I engaged in similar care taking of a similarly afflicted woman and her child and left the relationship after 5 years with about $70K in student loan debt which I used largely to fuel her life choices.

Options 3 - 5 will leave a thread of connection to this person and she will feel like you are somewhat obligated to her. She could make $5K look like chump change in about 24 hours (e.g. rape allegations, gunshot wounds, file for divorce from imagined common-law marriage), so you do not want anything more to do with her.

best wishes, aperture.

[Dicey]

If you can really extricate yourself from this situation for "only" $5k, I'd do that ASAP and consider it a hard lesson learned.

[l1l1nw1ld]

  In my youth, I engaged in similar care taking of a similarly afflicted woman and her child and left the relationship after 5 years with about $70K in student loan debt which I used largely to fuel her life choices.

Options 3 - 5 will leave a thread of connection to this person and she will feel like you are somewhat obligated to her. She could make $5K look like chump change in about 24 hours (e.g. rape allegations, gunshot wounds, file for divorce from imagined common-law marriage), so you do not want anything more to do with her.

Ouch! I count myself lucky for getting out when I did. I'm currently wrapping up reading Dating Radar, it's from the folks at the High Conflict Institute who specialize on the high conflict personality disorders. Pretty basic book but some of the stories they share are both insane and also strangely familiar as I've had the same experiences or heard some of the same phrases word for word from the ex. Sounds like you've been there, too.

[NoStacheOhio]

Pay it off and walk RUN away

Sorry this happened to you

[aperture]

Ouch! I count myself lucky for getting out when I did. I'm currently wrapping up reading Dating Radar, it's from the folks at the High Conflict Institute who specialize on the high conflict personality disorders. Pretty basic book but some of the stories they share are both insane and also strangely familiar as I've had the same experiences or heard some of the same phrases word for word from the ex. Sounds like you've been there, too.

Thanks for sharing your story.  I am intrigued by the book. Is it one you would recommend? I am now happily in a stable relationship with a loving, kind woman. But, we have two teenage kids. I worry about their dating future.  I would love for them to avoid the bear-trap experience of joining their lives, even briefly, to a HCP. 

[acroy]

wow!
sorry to hear about it. She's f'd up.
Agree with above. Unless you are willing to face the possible consequences (confrontation, damage etc) choose Easy Out Option #6 and consider it a lesson learned.
Good luck!!

[KBecks]

I agree with the others who say pay it off.   I would suggest 1) pay it off, 2) hand her the title, get it retitled in her name only, get yourself off of any responsibility regarding that car.   

Then, move.  If you are renting, definitely move, change your phone number and email address and all that jazz.  If you own, change your locks.  I would still consider moving.

This person is going to probably follow you around for more handouts.  IMO you need a firm, clean break and escape.

For future reference, you need to pay attention to where you are meeting people,  learn someones background before getting serious, never date someone you wouldn't marry, never live with someone before marriage, and never co sign! 

[Dicey]

I agree with the others who say pay it off.   I would suggest 1) pay it off, 2) hand her the title, get it retitled in her name only, get yourself off of any responsibility regarding that car.   

Then, move.  If you are renting, definitely move, change your phone number and email address and all that jazz.  If you own, change your locks.  I would still consider moving.

This person is going to probably follow you around for more handouts.  IMO you need a firm, clean break and escape.

For future reference, you need to pay attention to where you are meeting people,  learn someones background before getting serious, never date someone you wouldn't marry, never live with someone before marriage, and never co sign!

I was thinking pretty much all of this when I read the original post. Upon reflection, I think going dark as far as this person is concerned would be an excellent strategy.

[RidetheRain]

Hey OP. Curious how this has turned out for you. We may be faceless strangers on the internet but we're faceless strangers on the internet that hope you got out okay.

[lizzzi]

I agree with the others who say pay it off.   I would suggest 1) pay it off, 2) hand her the title, get it retitled in her name only, get yourself off of any responsibility regarding that car.   

Then, move.  If you are renting, definitely move, change your phone number and email address and all that jazz.  If you own, change your locks.  I would still consider moving.

This person is going to probably follow you around for more handouts.  IMO you need a firm, clean break and escape.

For future reference, you need to pay attention to where you are meeting people,  learn someones background before getting serious, never date someone you wouldn't marry, never live with someone before marriage, and never co sign!

I was thinking pretty much all of this when I read the original post. Upon reflection, I think going dark as far as this person is concerned would be an excellent strategy.

+1

[rulesofacquisition]

Holy crap, man, pay it off and disappear! I had to look up HCP, and boy was that an eye opener. It looks like it was written about my stepchild's mother. Just thank God you don't have a kid and aren't forced to keep dealing with her - it makes me very nervous to have a bat shit crazy criminal drug addict that hates me have my name, address and some other personal info the courts gave her. I wish you the best and I hope your post helps somebody wake up and get out. Please let us know you're OK.

[l1l1nw1ld]

Thanks all! I called the loan officer to no avail (Chase, so no surprise there). The only way is to refinance or otherwise pay it off. She's currently sober and back with a recent BF, we'll see how long that lasts but I put the bug in her ear again to get his help refinancing (he's apparently fairly well off). I'm slow to pull the trigger on paying it off myself, like you all I had goals for that $$ that are hard to let go of, but like you all said, I'm in need of a clean break and it's only a matter of time before she relapses again. If I can't get her to move forward on a refinance by the next payment I'm paying it off.

I'm OK, the worst parts were the breakup and getting her out of the house which were months ago. As time goes on and she develops a life ~2hrs away there is less and less reason to come to my town. I'm not scared of her, though while she was in the depths of her meth and dealing I had no idea what her dealers were capable of and who knows if her stories were true or drug-induced illusions. Like RoA said, this whole thing was an eye opener and given the prevalence of these disorders it's hard to imagine how there isn't more public knowledge of the issue. It's easy to get sucked into these relationships given the charm and 'spark' that is all too common initially combined with her need to be rescued with the pride that comes from being a rescuer, not knowing these as potential red flags. I have since recovered and am just about back to my normal self, just trying to close the door on this thing before starting something with someone new. Still debating therapy to ensure there are no lingering issues or other psychological aspects I should be working on...

Hope you're doing OK RoA! Sounds like you're in the midst of dealing with someone similar. As I've been on this journey the best thing was knowing I was not alone and hearing stories of those that have dealt with it. That's partly why I'm still swallowing my pride and leaving this post open, perhaps someone out there sees it that needs a wake up call.

 

[Dicey]

This, especially the bolded portion,

It's easy to get sucked into these relationships given the charm and 'spark' that is all too common initially combined with her need to be rescued with the pride that comes from being a rescuer, not knowing these as potential red flags.

makes me think this is an excellent idea:

...therapy to ensure there are no lingering issues or other psychological aspects I should be working on...

Seems you have little to lose and good things to gain by taking this step. Could well be worth your time and effort. Good for you for considering it.