Author Topic: Carbon Tax Rebate  (Read 3844 times)

Prairie Moustache

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Carbon Tax Rebate
« on: January 09, 2019, 03:17:12 PM »
Just a heads up that you can apparently claim the carbon tax rebate on your 2018 return if you live in Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario or New Brunswick. I'll be putting that $300 towards general badassity as intended and becoming wealthier in the process. I just intended this post to be an FYI, please don't make it into a carbon tax argument, there's enough of those on the internet already.

If the conservative types weren't yet fired up enough, the feds used the example of a lesbian family of three when explaining how the rebate would be applied on the Saskatchewan carbon tax FAQ page.

https://www.canada.ca/en/environment-climate-change/services/climate-change/pricing-pollution-how-it-will-work/saskatchewan.html

Prairie Stash

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Re: Carbon Tax Rebate
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2019, 03:45:13 PM »
thanks for the link

sieben

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Re: Carbon Tax Rebate
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2019, 04:14:49 PM »
Ah,
I'd noticed something about a climate action incentive in SimpleTax. I was wondering what that meant.
Thanks for sharing!

The Fake Cheap

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Re: Carbon Tax Rebate
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2019, 06:28:09 PM »
Thanks for the info!

I'm in New Brunswick, looks like my family will be getting about $220...not bad!


If the conservative types weren't yet fired up enough, the feds used the example of a lesbian family of three when explaining how the rebate would be applied on the Saskatchewan carbon tax FAQ page.

Halarious!

okits

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Re: Carbon Tax Rebate
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2019, 07:34:05 PM »
Interesting!  Seems like it’s a straight payment based on family size, not related to income or as a tax credit. 

Saskatchewstachian

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Re: Carbon Tax Rebate
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2019, 12:21:33 PM »
Thanks for the reminder. I do love that it's based on family size and not income.

Looks like $533 for our family this year that I wasn't accounting for! Add in the graduate retention program and I can't wait for that sweet sweet government money. (I didn't adjust my withholding so I'm still a fool letting the government use my money the rest of the year, facepunches accepted)

Prairie Moustache

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Re: Carbon Tax Rebate
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2019, 03:30:15 PM »
No problem! I filled out a T1213 for 2018 but my pension adjustment amount this year is going to be too high to really make it worth it in terms of RRSP contributions. You can't adjust your withholding for the grad retention program correct?

sieben

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Re: Carbon Tax Rebate
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2019, 07:59:22 PM »
No problem! I filled out a T1213 for 2018 but my pension adjustment amount this year is going to be too high to really make it worth it in terms of RRSP contributions. You can't adjust your withholding for the grad retention program correct?

Hmmmm, I never have, but I think I've heard people using it like that. There is an spot for "Other" on the form.
I took a 2 year program so my grad retention just isn't enough to ever worry about for that though. :\

Prairie Moustache

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Re: Carbon Tax Rebate
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2019, 06:33:53 AM »
Hmm, perhaps this year once I get a handle on my pension adjustment I'll try claiming the grad retention program on the T1213 as an experiment for the Sask folks on here and see how it goes. The opportunity cost of leaving $2000 on the table for a little under a year isn't astronomical but we all know it adds up. :)

True Sieben, but your capital investment costs on that education were a lot lower, and the ROI impressive compared to most 4 year degrees. ;)

sieben

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Re: Carbon Tax Rebate
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2019, 04:01:59 PM »
Hmm, perhaps this year once I get a handle on my pension adjustment I'll try claiming the grad retention program on the T1213 as an experiment for the Sask folks on here and see how it goes. The opportunity cost of leaving $2000 on the table for a little under a year isn't astronomical but we all know it adds up. :)

True Sieben, but your capital investment costs on that education were a lot lower, and the ROI impressive compared to most 4 year degrees. ;)

Hope it work for you! I don't know, I love those kind of micro-optimization. They all start to snowball after awhile!

You bet, I've got no regrets :)
An 18 month program meant an extra 2 years of salary and 2 years less of tuition and here in Stoon it doesn't affect my potentially salary at any of the places I'd want to work anyway.

Saskatchewstachian

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Re: Carbon Tax Rebate
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2019, 11:17:18 AM »
Hmm, perhaps this year once I get a handle on my pension adjustment I'll try claiming the grad retention program on the T1213 as an experiment for the Sask folks on here and see how it goes. The opportunity cost of leaving $2000 on the table for a little under a year isn't astronomical but we all know it adds up. :)


I didn't actually try last year but I didn't think you could when I looked at the form, never occurred to me to just enter it into the 'Other" field. Between DW and myself we are at the last couple years of the programs so it's $4000 each which means leaving $8,000 on the table for the year which no doubt is high. However since we are at the end of the program I will need to reduce it back shortly.

Let me know how it goes!

Stashasaurus

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Re: Carbon Tax Rebate
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2019, 05:43:14 PM »
Question for you guys and gals. We, the people of Saskatchewan, are getting these checks because we, the government of Saskatchewan, could not get to a plan that made the federal government criteria. Now, I am not intending to talk about the merits of the carbon tax. What I am interested in what would like to see the money used for. Cutting my family a $500 cheque reminds me of Ralph Bucks

sieben

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Re: Carbon Tax Rebate
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2019, 06:48:10 PM »
Honestly just cutting a cheque seems like the best option to me. It makes the whole process feel like something closer to a consumption tax which I actually think makes more sense then our current taxation system.
Plus I'm just not sure I trust the government to be using it for anything else, like subsidizing/promoting any specific scheme or pet project they come up with.

Stashasaurus

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Re: Carbon Tax Rebate
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2019, 08:13:26 PM »
I would agree with you that the carbon tax is really a consumption tax. One that targets traditional energy consumption. Why not replace the SK portion of the income tax? I end up with more money in my pocket just like the cheque and we eliminate some friction losses from within the goverment.

sieben

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Re: Carbon Tax Rebate
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2019, 08:56:40 PM »
I would agree with you that the carbon tax is really a consumption tax. One that targets traditional energy consumption. Why not replace the SK portion of the income tax? I end up with more money in my pocket just like the cheque and we eliminate some friction losses from within the goverment.
[/quote

Totally, that would make perfect sense, but at this point I'm pretty sure this is more about the Federal Gov. earning brownie points with the electorate then anything else. It'll be interesting how the next year or two affect all of this.

Prairie Moustache

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Re: Carbon Tax Rebate
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2019, 11:01:27 PM »
I get a sense that a lot of folks here don't seem to understand that the rebate is supposed to make up for the increased costs that would be incurred on the average person in Sask, but above and beyond that your economic choices is what impacts how much the tax affects your pocketbook. A lady I work with told me that the rebate should be based upon the emissions your vehicle produces on an annual basis **not the point**. Oops, I broke my own suggestion of not talking about the tax itself!

I never really considered the idea of consumption taxes before this forum, and I have to say it's an enticing idea.

Prairie Stash

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Re: Carbon Tax Rebate
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2019, 10:41:23 AM »
Question for you guys and gals. We, the people of Saskatchewan, are getting these checks because we, the government of Saskatchewan, could not get to a plan that made the federal government criteria. Now, I am not intending to talk about the merits of the carbon tax. What I am interested in what would like to see the money used for. Cutting my family a $500 cheque reminds me of Ralph Bucks
The neat part of the lump sum is it makes the tax progressive, low income people generally buy less fuel, have smaller homes to heat and less electric toys. Rich people will have higher costs, cause they tend to spend more. Since we all get the same, the result is a progressive tax.  Low emitters will make money, high emitters will lose money and it correlates roughly with low and high incomes.

One of the problems with reducing emissions is how to get poor people to reduce, they're poor so they have no money (not being mean, just stating the obvious). But what if they want to insulate their house better, a one time cash infusion might be the only way. When you live cheque to cheque, it means just that, you have no money for niceties like more insulation.

My increased insulation on my house cost about $550 and saves about 400kg CO2/yr, overall my household emissions dropped about 3% (I'm not saving the planet yet). I also save $100/year, the real reason I did it.

The programs goal is to reduce SK emissions by 5% on average. Seems easily achievable to me; my household will likely drop a further 25% by the end of the program. I predict 80% of the reductions will occur among the minority 20% who actually bother; so people can join me in saving money while reducing emissions or just subsidize me, either way the program will succeed.

People tend to think everyone needs to reduce, really its just some of us and the rest are subsidizing. The fun part is we all get to choose which camp we're in. If you replace it with a tax rebate, I won't get subsidized for doing all the reductions. there won't by the incentive to join the 10-20%.

In Real life I try to be Green, but I'm approaching this as a selfish ass and finding the program appeals to my greed. I hate arguing about environmental policy, its easier to argue about money.

sieben

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Re: Carbon Tax Rebate
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2019, 03:57:59 PM »
Yeah, I'm assuming I'll be coming out ahead with the tax.  I walk most everywhere in the city and tend not to consume all that much. That's why like the idea of just give cash back, let's every person decide if they'll put the effort to reduce their emissions or not.

@Prairie Stash I agree, it's people on the really low end of the income spectrum that make this tricky. Driving old gas-guzzlers they can't replace, etc. I honestly don't how to approach that, I just know that having the Government pick and choose what/how to subsidize behaviour always worries me.

Have you guys ever read this article on DQYDJ: https://dqydj.com/the-earth-is-flat-why-a-flatter-tax-code-is-better-the-no-math-edition/
I feel like the arguments in there could also apply to the carbon tax.

Stashasaurus

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Re: Carbon Tax Rebate
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2019, 08:05:41 PM »
I would assume anyone coming to this board is going to come out ahead. @Prairie Stash the calculation for your insulation does not need the rebate cheque to remain valid. In fact as natural gas and electricity rates go up your renovations will seem more lucrative.

@sieben I totally get that the rebate is designed to make the tax net neutral for most family units, and is not at all flat. I would argue both the exclusions and the the net neutral are unnecessary. However, this is talking about the tax itself. I will move along to its own thread.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 08:29:04 PM by Stashasaurus »

Prairie Stash

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Re: Carbon Tax Rebate
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2019, 10:36:47 AM »
@Stashasaurus you're very correct, my calculations didn't need the increasing prices for insulation to be cost effective. But from a society POV, how do poor people come up with the cash to do the work? I have a coworker who regularly complains about beig broke, this one time shot could be the impetus needed (most likely it won't change aything).

For a more fun case study of emission reductions (real life for me):
The next one is solar panels, that should reduce my emissions by 3,500-4,000 kg/year. With the projected rate increases of 0.6 cents/kwh for every $10 in carbon tax, electric prices are expected to rise 3 cents (I round off for simplicity). That will bring my cost to just shy of $0.19/kwh, which will make my solar panel payback under 10 years. Currently the payback is based on electric at $0.16/kwh and is a much longer payback period.

It is currently better fiscally, since I'm approaching this as a jerk ;), to invest my $8000 that I would otherwise spend on solar panels. The $8000 is what it will likely cost for me to replace 5,460 Kwh/year. I plan on doing most of the installation, otherwise I'm looking at $13,000 (after 20% rebate).

What would you do in my situation? As a environmentalist, I would do solar panels. As a fiscally driven person, I'm only doing solar if the carbon tax stays. I expect this to be very popular next year in SK when electric prices start increasing. I fail to see how they won't pass on the increased costs,

Saskpower hasn't announced any meaningful emission reductions until BDPS #4 closes in 2021 and #5 in 2024. Our carbon intensity should stay relatively high unti then (over 600 grams/kwh, currently its around 650).

Prairie Moustache

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Re: Carbon Tax Rebate
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2019, 08:37:25 PM »
@Stashasaurus you're very correct, my calculations didn't need the increasing prices for insulation to be cost effective. But from a society POV, how do poor people come up with the cash to do the work? I have a coworker who regularly complains about beig broke, this one time shot could be the impetus needed (most likely it won't change aything).

For a more fun case study of emission reductions (real life for me):
The next one is solar panels, that should reduce my emissions by 3,500-4,000 kg/year. With the projected rate increases of 0.6 cents/kwh for every $10 in carbon tax, electric prices are expected to rise 3 cents (I round off for simplicity). That will bring my cost to just shy of $0.19/kwh, which will make my solar panel payback under 10 years. Currently the payback is based on electric at $0.16/kwh and is a much longer payback period.

It is currently better fiscally, since I'm approaching this as a jerk ;), to invest my $8000 that I would otherwise spend on solar panels. The $8000 is what it will likely cost for me to replace 5,460 Kwh/year. I plan on doing most of the installation, otherwise I'm looking at $13,000 (after 20% rebate).

What would you do in my situation? As a environmentalist, I would do solar panels. As a fiscally driven person, I'm only doing solar if the carbon tax stays. I expect this to be very popular next year in SK when electric prices start increasing. I fail to see how they won't pass on the increased costs,

Saskpower hasn't announced any meaningful emission reductions until BDPS #4 closes in 2021 and #5 in 2024. Our carbon intensity should stay relatively high unti then (over 600 grams/kwh, currently its around 650).

If you need a hand installing those panels at some point give me a shout. I'd love to learn the process and I'll even bring some home made beer for enjoyment after. ;)

Stashasaurus

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Re: Carbon Tax Rebate
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2019, 09:00:50 PM »
From a economic point of view the price of carbon intensive activities ( driving a car with a V8 engine , living by yourself in a house, flying to Cuba) goes up with pricing carbon emissions. People will be forced to choose options that are less carbon intensive ( take the bus, live with room mates, camp at a national park) Poor people have less capital/income and have less control about these options. They will be forced to find creative solutions or give up things we deem normal. Maybe we will see a resurgence back to 1 car households? Or medium density housing being more desired?

I had a company come out to quote an installation of solar panels and I came to the same conclusion. $14,314 (less the SaskPower grant) for an approximated 4,200kWh/year system. I am being a greedy, and the rate of return is not worth it. Now from your post, you are able to reduce that cost of a solar install by 40% for doing most of the work yourself. That is an interesting option, one that is purely economically driven. To me this is the power of the carbon tax to shape our emissions. Would you mind showing some details of your project? If such a large reduction in cost is possible...

Saskpower has signed an additional hydro deal with Manitoba Hydro, and a request for proposals for an additional 10MW of solar. I also hear rumors of attempting carbon capture at Shand. I do agree with you that electricity is going to remain carbon intensive in Saskatchewan for quite some time. As long as the Liberals remain in power, there will be significant opportunities for savings.

Prairie Stash

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Re: Carbon Tax Rebate
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2019, 07:53:18 AM »
@Stashasaurus It looks like we're similiar about Solar, I need to replace my shingles (coming up soon) before installing the panels. My quote was from 2 years ago for a 3.64KW system and at that time was likely to recoup costs in 20 years.

Since then I looked into buying a complete system out of Calgary, Solar wholesale. I had the idea there should be a complete package seller within SK, an IKEA option of solar, that's what I found in Calgary. The drawings and diagrams are available so you can get city permits.

I would still need a journeyperson electrcian for inpection and the structural inspector (city bylaw), that's there for safety. Solar isn't complicated, the first part is just installing a rack on my roof; bolted into the trusses and sealed. This part is labour intensive by all accounts, but it has nothing to do with electricity so far. The next part is lugging the panels up to the roof and clipping them in, still nothing is electrified. Then you lay wires out and run them to the breaker box. I found that when I started breaking it down, it seems much less daunting. I also want to now how to expand my system in the fure in case I get an electric car in 10 years or need to replace panels in 20 years (who knows what the future holds). It'll probably be a 1-2 week project, I pan on not working more then 4 hours/day in retirement (my hammock is finally going to get used the way it deserves).

I will post all details later this year if I get it done this year, it might be next if I decide to enjoy myself too much this year. I plan on taking pictures/videos, to me it seems like solar has far too much mystique. It should be straightforward so that it gets widespread adoption. I think it would be more popular and widespread, if Home Depot would just sell solar packages. They sell all the rest of my electrical supplies, why not solar kits?

@Prairie Moustache I will gladly share results of everything. If I can figure it ou I'm hoping to get my inlaws to do it as well, I'll basically be a schill for solar companies, I think/hope its going to gain momentum. Maybe I'll start a MLM company....

Prairie Stash

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Re: Carbon Tax Rebate
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2019, 08:07:22 AM »
Saskpower has signed an additional hydro deal with Manitoba Hydro, and a request for proposals for an additional 10MW of solar. I also hear rumors of attempting carbon capture at Shand. I do agree with you that electricity is going to remain carbon intensive in Saskatchewan for quite some time. As long as the Liberals remain in power, there will be significant opportunities for savings.
Shand won't go to carbon capture until 2029, a year before its closure in 2030. It was originally slated to close in 2045 (Harper Gov't) and then it was 2030 (Trudeau). BDPS #4 and 5 we're slated for closure in 2019 (Harper) but just received extension (trudeau). Currently Saskpower is short on power, they need to bring more online (MB) just to meet future demand. We are over 4,000 MW as a provincial grid, the 10 MW is a very small part. We currently have potential for 50MW from AB, that's capped due to grid interconnection problems, our only choice is MB or building.

Shand has 2 units, both at 150MW. BDPS #4 and 5 were both 150 MW. BDPS#6 is also slated for closure in 2030, its the backbone of the grid at 300MW. We have 900MW of electricity closing in our grid from 2021 to 2030, but thats all core power. Unlike solar or wind, core power is relied upn 24 hours a day to provide stability. Looking at what happened in Ontario, I'm nervous about our electric prices as they seek to replace almost 25% of the power production while also expanding it. There is going to be huge capital outlays, guess who pays the bills? There will also be huge negotiation to extend deadlines, like what just happened with 300MW that the previous government had slated for closure in 2006 (they had 13 years to make decisions).