Author Topic: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?  (Read 34685 times)

greaper007

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1129
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #100 on: April 15, 2014, 11:20:07 PM »
Will the Muhammad's let you get your drink on, or do you have to spend the next few years sober.    You know they're the only people worse than the Mormons with alcohol laws.



You know that was slightly sarcastic, still...   I don't trust a lot of the laws in the middle east.    There have been some crazy judgements against foreigners even in Dubai for things like adultery.   

I'll be the first to say that America is far from perfect.   But when it comes to rights, there's no place like home.

PS, I still don't trust a culture that doesn't drink, allow pornography, or thinks that seeing a woman's bare head will turn men into savage rapists.   Misogyny isn't just a little cultural difference.
But calling them "Muhammad's" is still worth a facepalm or two.

That was the common term for someone who followed Islam only a few decades ago, I first encountered it in the original I Am Legend book.   I think it's is a more appropriate term as Islam differs mainly from Judaism and Christianity only in their chosen messiah.   Otherwise, they're all Abrahamic religions (and Jewish).

I occasionally refer to Mormons as Smithians or the magic underwear crowd.   I believe making fun of aspects of religions was acceptable because everyone chooses to follow their particular religion.   It's not something thrust upon them at birth like color, gender or sexual orientation.    Sort of like giggling about someones choice to wear a 3 foot mohawk or have a sleeve or really bad tattoos.

Mostly though, I have a problem with someone not allowing adults to practice their vice of choice based on a loose collection of sacred texts that they really can't even source.   Or in the Christian tradition, edited by people far removed from the original source material.   The Gospels of Judas and Mary Magdalen were considered heretical several hundred years after their appearance, removed, and the reigning text was used as a basis to routinely kill Jews throughout the next thousand plus years.

I'm agnostic, feel free to call me a Darwinian, Hitchian, heretic etc.

totoro

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2091
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #101 on: April 15, 2014, 11:49:46 PM »
Meh. 

Judging others and making fun of them/labelling based on your agnostic belief in nothing in particular seems odd.  It is exactly the same as doing it because you believe in something in particular.  All of it seems to be coming from a place of implied superiority over another group.  Weird how that works.

greaper007

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1129
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #102 on: April 16, 2014, 12:00:54 AM »
Meh. 

Judging others and making fun of them/labelling based on your agnostic belief in nothing in particular seems odd.  It is exactly the same as doing it because you believe in something in particular.  All of it seems to be coming from a place of implied superiority over another group.  Weird how that works.

Not really, I don't feel superior, I feel angry that many Muslim countries don't allow women to have an equal place in society, imprison gay people, and execute people with amazing frequency and restrict an adult's consumption of drugs.    Don't you think there's a connection with a culture's absurd amount of violence and their puritanical belief's about sexuality and sin (yes, I'm including the US in that)?

I didn't say I was superior, I said feel free to make fun of my belief system as it's a choice.    Not something thrust upon me at birth like race, gender or sexual orientation.    And if my belief system was restricting others right to liberty I'd hope you'd do more than just make fun of it.    Really though, if you keep your ideas in your group and away from government I don't care how crazy they are.    I don't like that the muslims and mormons put restrictions on one of my favorite activities, drinking.    I really don't like that they do things like pour millions of dollars into a bill that stops gay people from getting married.    That's might draw more of my ire, though getting between me and an IPA is still a worse idea.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 12:16:01 AM by greaper007 »

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 27538
  • Age: -999
  • Location: Traveling the World
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #103 on: April 16, 2014, 12:34:37 AM »
That was the common term for someone who followed Islam only a few decades ago

We've had lots of "common terms" for Blacks, Polish people, Jews, etc.

That doesn't mean they're acceptable to use.

I also am not appreciative of some of their cultural viewpoints, but that doesn't mean I'd degrade or insult them.  How does that make anything better?
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, and now travel the world full time with two kids.
If you want to know more about me, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
We (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out our Now page to see what we're up to currently.

greaper007

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1129
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #104 on: April 16, 2014, 01:11:46 AM »
That was the common term for someone who followed Islam only a few decades ago

We've had lots of "common terms" for Blacks, Polish people, Jews, etc.

That doesn't mean they're acceptable to use.

I also am not appreciative of some of their cultural viewpoints, but that doesn't mean I'd degrade or insult them.  How does that make anything better?

It's an archaic term, not particularly an offensive one.   Fortnight is archaic, not offensive.    I could have pulled out a dozen obviously offensive terms if I wanted to go down that path.    I just wanted to make the point stand out.   The actions on individuals that aren't associated with those religions, in the name of those religions, is as archaic as that term.

I think anyone that does something specifically to restrict someone's liberty deserves singling out.    I'm a big fat liberal on most things, but I don't dig on cultural relevance.    There's a core set of rights that we're all endowed with by birth, and an old book and a few megalomaniacs shouldn't have the right to take that away.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 01:13:55 AM by greaper007 »

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 27538
  • Age: -999
  • Location: Traveling the World
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #105 on: April 16, 2014, 01:17:40 AM »
It's an archaic term, not particularly an offensive one.

I disagree.

Fortnight is archaic, not offensive.

Fortnight doesn't dismiss a whole group of people based on their common characteristics (ethnicity, for example).

A term can be both archaic and offensive, and you used one that is both.  Polack is another example of a word that is both archaic and offensive.

I absolutely agree with lots of stuff you're saying, like this:
I think anyone that does something specifically to restrict someone's liberty deserves singling out.    I'm a big fat liberal on most things, but I don't dig on cultural relevance.    There's a core set of rights that we're all endowed with by birth, and an old book and a few megalomaniacs shouldn't have the right to take that away.

I just don't feel that slurs prove your point or help it at all, they only detract from what you're saying and make someone who disagrees with you dismiss your arguments right away before you can even say anything else, and make someone who agrees with you question why they are agreeing with someone who says offensive slurs.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 01:19:40 AM by arebelspy »
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, and now travel the world full time with two kids.
If you want to know more about me, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
We (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out our Now page to see what we're up to currently.

greaper007

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1129
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #106 on: April 16, 2014, 01:34:22 AM »
Like I said, I don't use slurs when it comes to characteristics thrust upon someone by birth.   I also don't believe that gender, race or sexual orientation makes an entire group of people act a certain way and I find it offensive when people use blanket statements for African Americans, women or gays.   I do tend to use terms some people find offensive when it comes to groups with voluntary membership, and what I find to be offensive actions.   Be that religion, or people that listen to loud EDM in the park across the street from me.

This isn't the first time I've had this argument, and I do realize that my belief system is beyond fringe.    So.....what do you say we leave it at that and try to get to sleep?

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 27538
  • Age: -999
  • Location: Traveling the World
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #107 on: April 16, 2014, 01:43:29 AM »
Like I said, I don't use slurs when it comes to characteristics thrust upon someone by birth.   I also don't believe that gender, race or sexual orientation makes an entire group of people act a certain way and I find it offensive when people use blanket statements for African Americans, women or gays.

But people born in and living in the Middle East all act a certain way?  (That, to me, is something thrust upon them at birth.)

Your statement was about all the people living there (and, more specifically, their government).  Not just those who believe a certain religion.

You specifically noted:
Quote
I don't trust a lot of the laws in the middle east.    There have been some crazy judgements against foreigners even in Dubai for things like adultery.

While I agree with that, I don't see it as a reason to use a slur against everyone in the country.

So.....what do you say we leave it at that and try to get to sleep?

Fair enough.
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, and now travel the world full time with two kids.
If you want to know more about me, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
We (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out our Now page to see what we're up to currently.

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4690
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #108 on: April 16, 2014, 06:41:57 AM »
Like I said, I don't use slurs when it comes to characteristics thrust upon someone by birth.   I also don't believe that gender, race or sexual orientation makes an entire group of people act a certain way and I find it offensive when people use blanket statements for African Americans, women or gays.   I do tend to use terms some people find offensive when it comes to groups with voluntary membership, and what I find to be offensive actions.   Be that religion, or people that listen to loud EDM in the park across the street from me.

This isn't the first time I've had this argument, and I do realize that my belief system is beyond fringe.    So.....what do you say we leave it at that and try to get to sleep?
But you did use a slur, and just because you think it is not offensive does not make it not a slur.  And frankly, being someone not of Abrahamic, your insult makes the rest of us look bad.  I don't want to my culture to be associated with bigots as much as I don't want it associated with mysoginistic jerks.  So, yes, I will call someone on either and maybe if you keep having this come up, maybe you are the one that needs to reconsider doing it instead of asking us to pretend what you are doing is ok.

totoro

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2091
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #109 on: April 16, 2014, 08:13:37 AM »
I guess the question to ask yourself is whether your reality testing holds up.  Are your beliefs grounded in a liberal viewpoint or is your viewpoint really limiting how you view others unfairly?

The internet is not great a presenting a full picture but my perception from your posts is not of a "left-leaning liberal" but rather of a  judgemental individual that feels free to put others down based on their religious beliefs which, in many countries, are a cultural norm that individuals are born into.  Your indoctrination by a system based on "liberal" values also seems to blind you to the fact that good people exist everywhere and religious beliefs tend to increase personal happiness.   

I don't agree with behaviours and opinions that demean or diminish others based on their religious beliefs.  This is true whether it is an Islamic belief that justifies the unequal treatment of women or an agnostic belief used to cover underlying Islamophobia.   

Depending on your financial circumstances I also have some concerns about the fact that one of the major reasons you have given for not going to the ME is that would not be willing to limit alcohol and drugs for a year - presumably even if it meant tripling your net income and setting yourself up for future FI.  I'd  personally be more concerned about any adverse consequences of addiction than I would be about living a year as an expat in the ME. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cathy-reisenwitz/whos-afraid-of-ayaan-hirs_b_5148397.html

http://www.policymic.com/articles/21665/ask-a-muslim-10-weird-questions-i-m-often-asked-but-am-happy-to-answer


 

greaper007

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1129
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #110 on: April 16, 2014, 08:50:15 AM »
Like I said, I don't use slurs when it comes to characteristics thrust upon someone by birth.   I also don't believe that gender, race or sexual orientation makes an entire group of people act a certain way and I find it offensive when people use blanket statements for African Americans, women or gays.   I do tend to use terms some people find offensive when it comes to groups with voluntary membership, and what I find to be offensive actions.   Be that religion, or people that listen to loud EDM in the park across the street from me.

This isn't the first time I've had this argument, and I do realize that my belief system is beyond fringe.    So.....what do you say we leave it at that and try to get to sleep?
But you did use a slur, and just because you think it is not offensive does not make it not a slur.  And frankly, being someone not of Abrahamic, your insult makes the rest of us look bad.  I don't want to my culture to be associated with bigots as much as I don't want it associated with mysoginistic jerks.  So, yes, I will call someone on either and maybe if you keep having this come up, maybe you are the one that needs to reconsider doing it instead of asking us to pretend what you are doing is ok.

Definition of MUHAMMADAN
:  of or relating to Muhammad or Islam 

source (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/muhammadan)

Again, archaic, not a slur.     Perhaps you could argue that it's pejorative, but that's different than a slur also.   Would you also be upset if I used the word "niggardly?"

Here's the deal.   I was indoctrinated into an Abrahamic religion shortly after birth without having a choice in the matter.    Catholicism told me I was a sinner, touching my penis was evil, and that god was watching everything I did and I'd have to answer to anything I did past the age of 7.    Personally, I consider subjecting children to that sort of bullshit to be a form of child abuse.    I left at 14.    Much like people that escape repressive governments, I feel I have the right to insult what I find oppressive or hypocritical about Abrahamic religions.   

Again, we're not talking about characteristics that people cannot change like skin color or gender.    We're talking about voluntary membership in an organization that promotes what I consider to be abuses of human and civil rights through a network of intertwined religious and governmental actions, commonly referred to as a theocracy.    I don't think you would suggest I refer to a ranking member of the Klu Klux Klan by his proper title, would you?

birdman2003

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
  • Location: Iowa
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #111 on: April 16, 2014, 09:21:42 AM »
Any good resources for finding professional jobs in the Middle East (especially if your current employer is NOT in the Oil & Gas industry)?

Did most of the people get their jobs via their current employer or did you use the internet/friend of a friend?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 12:35:56 PM by birdman2003 »

greaper007

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1129
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #112 on: April 16, 2014, 09:26:10 AM »
I guess the question to ask yourself is whether your reality testing holds up.  Are your beliefs grounded in a liberal viewpoint or is your viewpoint really limiting how you view others unfairly?

The internet is not great a presenting a full picture but my perception from your posts is not of a "left-leaning liberal" but rather of a  judgemental individual that feels free to put others down based on their religious beliefs which, in many countries, are a cultural norm that individuals are born into.  Your indoctrination by a system based on "liberal" values also seems to blind you to the fact that good people exist everywhere and religious beliefs tend to increase personal happiness.   

I don't agree with behaviours and opinions that demean or diminish others based on their religious beliefs.  This is true whether it is an Islamic belief that justifies the unequal treatment of women or an agnostic belief used to cover underlying Islamophobia.   

Depending on your financial circumstances I also have some concerns about the fact that one of the major reasons you have given for not going to the ME is that would not be willing to limit alcohol and drugs for a year - presumably even if it meant tripling your net income and setting yourself up for future FI.  I'd  personally be more concerned about any adverse consequences of addiction than I would be about living a year as an expat in the ME. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cathy-reisenwitz/whos-afraid-of-ayaan-hirs_b_5148397.html

http://www.policymic.com/articles/21665/ask-a-muslim-10-weird-questions-i-m-often-asked-but-am-happy-to-answer


I view organizations, and people that choose to be members of organizations, on the tenets of their actions and beliefs.   Again, this is about Islam, not someone of Arabic, Persian or perhaps Malaysian descent.   Christians and Muslims follow an organizational belief system that states "I am the way and the truth and the light, there is no god but me" and "there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is his profit."    These two statements have been used as a justification for countless wars and the mass slaughter of people that didn't agree with these concepts over more than a thousand years.   It continues today in place like Afghanistan and Iraq, that I would argue we entered to fulfill George W Bush's myopic, fundamentalists view of Christian doctrine.    That alone should draw our ire and a questioning view of an organization.

The fact that these organizations have infiltrated governmental bodies and thrust their doctrine upon the masses, even if the masses didn't follow their viewpoint, should make you upset.   Individual liberties are not given by a democratic consensus, they're given by our very existence.   I will question and insult any organization that tries to restrict an individuals choices and right to live their life in the manner they see fit.   That isn't islamaphobia, that's making ideas and actions stand on their own two feet.

Questioning my relationship with substances?   Ad hominem arguments are a great way to sidestep the issue.   I'm an adult, and as an adult I enjoy a few adult pleasures.   I like a finely created craft brew  (brewed by me for $.32 a glass thank you very much), I like to have sex with my wife.   Before I was married, I liked to have sex with people I wasn't married to.    If I was gay or bi, I'd enjoy having sex with people of the same gender.    Those are actions that should be protected by any society.   We're talking about liberty, so wonderfully described by Matt Damon as "A soul's right to breathe."

No, I'm not going to give up my nightly indulgence to make a few sheckles more.   I'm not going to tell my wife she has to cover her head so we can make more dough.    What if we move there, and one of my kids decides they're gay and want to have a relationship with someone of the same gender?    Normally I'd applaud their decision to live the life they were handed.   If we lived in the middle east I'd fear for their safety and potential imprisonment.   That's not worth more money.

I was an airline pilot on the fast track to making 100k + a year.   (My dad's a captain at a major airline and makes $300k+ and has 1.8 million in stock options).    I left my job to be a stay at home dad 9 months after my son was born.    I gave up the idea of fast money at the expense of my family's and my own well being at that point.   So no, I'm not going to follow a bunch of money, especially if it means I put myself or my family at risk.

greaper007

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1129
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #113 on: April 16, 2014, 09:28:42 AM »
Also, if we're going to continue this discussion we should probably split it off into a new thread.   My original statement was glib, but it conformed to the op's original question.   We're starting to get into philisophical territory here and it doesn't really conform to the title.

I feel that I've stated my position rather clearly, and backed it up with appropriate facts.   If you'd like to question any of those planks, feel free to start a new thread.

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 27538
  • Age: -999
  • Location: Traveling the World
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #114 on: April 16, 2014, 09:37:56 AM »
Maybe we can add it to the off topic judgement thread so we can keep all the racism in one place.

Or how about we just drop it, and get back on topic?

On second thought, yes, please no one respond to greaper here.  If you'd like to, go cut and paste his comment(s) over there and feel free to respond.
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, and now travel the world full time with two kids.
If you want to know more about me, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
We (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out our Now page to see what we're up to currently.

Gin1984

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4690
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #115 on: April 16, 2014, 09:41:35 AM »
I guess the question to ask yourself is whether your reality testing holds up.  Are your beliefs grounded in a liberal viewpoint or is your viewpoint really limiting how you view others unfairly?

The internet is not great a presenting a full picture but my perception from your posts is not of a "left-leaning liberal" but rather of a  judgemental individual that feels free to put others down based on their religious beliefs which, in many countries, are a cultural norm that individuals are born into.  Your indoctrination by a system based on "liberal" values also seems to blind you to the fact that good people exist everywhere and religious beliefs tend to increase personal happiness.   

I don't agree with behaviours and opinions that demean or diminish others based on their religious beliefs.  This is true whether it is an Islamic belief that justifies the unequal treatment of women or an agnostic belief used to cover underlying Islamophobia.   

Depending on your financial circumstances I also have some concerns about the fact that one of the major reasons you have given for not going to the ME is that would not be willing to limit alcohol and drugs for a year - presumably even if it meant tripling your net income and setting yourself up for future FI.  I'd  personally be more concerned about any adverse consequences of addiction than I would be about living a year as an expat in the ME. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cathy-reisenwitz/whos-afraid-of-ayaan-hirs_b_5148397.html

http://www.policymic.com/articles/21665/ask-a-muslim-10-weird-questions-i-m-often-asked-but-am-happy-to-answer


I view organizations, and people that choose to be members of organizations, on the tenets of their actions and beliefs.   Again, this is about Islam, not someone of Arabic, Persian or perhaps Malaysian descent.   Christians and Muslims follow an organizational belief system that states "I am the way and the truth and the light, there is no god but me" and "there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is his profit."    These two statements have been used as a justification for countless wars and the mass slaughter of people that didn't agree with these concepts over more than a thousand years.   It continues today in place like Afghanistan and Iraq, that I would argue we entered to fulfill George W Bush's myopic, fundamentalists view of Christian doctrine.    That alone should draw our ire and a questioning view of an organization.

The fact that these organizations have infiltrated governmental bodies and thrust their doctrine upon the masses, even if the masses didn't follow their viewpoint, should make you upset.   Individual liberties are not given by a democratic consensus, they're given by our very existence.   I will question and insult any organization that tries to restrict an individuals choices and right to live their life in the manner they see fit.   That isn't islamaphobia, that's making ideas and actions stand on their own two feet.

Questioning my relationship with substances?   Ad hominem arguments are a great way to sidestep the issue.   I'm an adult, and as an adult I enjoy a few adult pleasures.   I like a finely created craft brew  (brewed by me for $.32 a glass thank you very much), I like to have sex with my wife.   Before I was married, I liked to have sex with people I wasn't married to.    If I was gay or bi, I'd enjoy having sex with people of the same gender.    Those are actions that should be protected by any society.   We're talking about liberty, so wonderfully described by Matt Damon as "A soul's right to breathe."

No, I'm not going to give up my nightly indulgence to make a few sheckles more.   I'm not going to tell my wife she has to cover her head so we can make more dough.    What if we move there, and one of my kids decides they're gay and want to have a relationship with someone of the same gender?    Normally I'd applaud their decision to live the life they were handed.   If we lived in the middle east I'd fear for their safety and potential imprisonment.   That's not worth more money.

I was an airline pilot on the fast track to making 100k + a year.   (My dad's a captain at a major airline and makes $300k+ and has 1.8 million in stock options).    I left my job to be a stay at home dad 9 months after my son was born.    I gave up the idea of fast money at the expense of my family's and my own well being at that point.   So no, I'm not going to follow a bunch of money, especially if it means I put myself or my family at risk.
The fact those of that religion should not infringe on others does not make your behavior any more morally right.  I have fought against those who would infringe on others (women and homosexuals, mostly), because of their religion and frankly I more horrified to find you within that group because I don't like bigots within groups I am in.  And side note, your definition was not of the word you used.

totoro

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2091
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #116 on: April 16, 2014, 09:46:28 AM »
Well, those reasons for not going are new and have not been presented before.  Sounds like a good choice for you.

As far as the religious issues, I agree that horrible things have happened that have been justified by religion.  Of course, horrible things have happened that have been justified by freedom and democracy.  I would point out that the Russians went into Afghanistan in the late 80s to "free women and give educational opportunities to all" and not for religious reasons at all.   The same reasons that Canada went for, at least the public reason, in more recent times. 

This is an interesting article about the indoctrination of war in Afghanistan written about a good friend of mine:  http://robwipond.com/archives/32   I think it is a great example of how a culture uses propaganda, whether religious or democratic, to justify war and oppression and get buy-in.  I would argue that underlying the buy-in is the assertion of dominance and control for strategic or political reasons.

I don't think insulting religions or comparing them to a hate group is fair.  Restrictions on individual freedoms are worthy of informed critique, but not insults.  The line between insulting a religion because you don't agree with it and bigotry seems pretty fine to me.  There are lots of people who choose religion for the benefits it brings.  I find Cat Stevens to be an interesting and somewhat admirable example.
http://www.islamcan.com/convert-stories/yusuf-islam-formerly-cat-stevens-how-he-became-a-muslim.shtml#.U06lX2xrZMs

greaper007

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1129
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #117 on: April 16, 2014, 11:24:29 AM »
The fact those of that religion should not infringe on others does not make your behavior any more morally right.  I have fought against those who would infringe on others (women and homosexuals, mostly), because of their religion and frankly I more horrified to find you within that group because I don't like bigots within groups I am in.  And side note, your definition was not of the word you used.

On a side note, upon further inspection, you're right.   Typing on an iphone with small children in the room doesn't always work.   Blame Steve Jobs for that one.     My intended original term was Mohammedan.    Thanks for pointing that out.

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 27538
  • Age: -999
  • Location: Traveling the World
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #118 on: April 16, 2014, 11:26:22 AM »
MOD NOTE: POST MOVED.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/forum/off-topic/ot-judging-others/

Please refrain from any further discussion of the off topic use of the word "Muhammads" in this thread.

/END MOD NOTE
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, and now travel the world full time with two kids.
If you want to know more about me, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
We (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out our Now page to see what we're up to currently.

birdman2003

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
  • Location: Iowa
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #119 on: April 16, 2014, 12:07:04 PM »
(Reposting my question from this morning.  Thanks!)

Any good resources for finding professional jobs in the Middle East (especially if your current employer is NOT in the Oil & Gas industry)?

Did most of the people get their jobs via their current employer or did you use the internet/friend of a friend?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 12:35:35 PM by birdman2003 »

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 27538
  • Age: -999
  • Location: Traveling the World
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #120 on: April 16, 2014, 12:14:04 PM »
(Reposting my question from this morning.  Thanks!)

Any good resources for finding professional jobs in the Middle East (especially if you're current employer is NOT in the Oil & Gas industry)?

Did most of the people get their jobs via their current employer or did you use the internet/friend of a friend?

Thanks for getting us back on track!

What sort of job/industry are you looking for?  "Professional job" is a bit vague.
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, and now travel the world full time with two kids.
If you want to know more about me, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
We (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out our Now page to see what we're up to currently.

birdman2003

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
  • Location: Iowa
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #121 on: April 16, 2014, 12:47:41 PM »
Quote
What sort of job/industry are you looking for?  "Professional job" is a bit vague.

Well my education and bulk of my 8 years of work experience is in manufacturing engineering.  Cost/benefit analysis, project management, purchasing and installing capital equipment, training operators on how to use said capital equipment, a little bit of robotics and CNC coding.  I've done a bit of Excel scripting, but nothing more involved than a few reports and userforms.

I do enjoy teaching.  I could take an Oxford seminar (http://www.oxfordseminars.com/) and teach English ... but I would prefer an engineering job.  My current industry is large machinery (CAT, CNH, JD, Hitachi, etc...) but I'm guessing most engineering opportunities would be within the Oil & Gas domain (Saudi Aramco, Exxon Mobil, etc...).  Not sure how my skills would directly transfer to their industry.

Kierun

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 243
  • Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #122 on: April 16, 2014, 01:29:36 PM »

 My current industry is large machinery (CAT, CNH, JD, Hitachi, etc...) but I'm guessing most engineering opportunities would be within the Oil & Gas domain (Saudi Aramco, Exxon Mobil, etc...).  Not sure how my skills would directly transfer to their industry.

There is a lot of other industries besides Oil & Gas in the ME, though it is fairly dominant.  There are a bunch of other engineering projects in the ME, Qatar is doing a lot of work for the World Cup.  Kuwait is doing large medical/education/air transportation projects.  UAE often has port projects.  I worked for the USG in a non-engineering field so don't know of any good resources to finding an engineering job aside from working with the USG.  I'd say google...

kkbmustang

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1286
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #123 on: April 16, 2014, 04:42:07 PM »
(Reposting my question from this morning.  Thanks!)

Any good resources for finding professional jobs in the Middle East (especially if your current employer is NOT in the Oil & Gas industry)?

Did most of the people get their jobs via their current employer or did you use the internet/friend of a friend?

Start with www.gulftalent.com. There are also a lot of ME headhunters on LinkedIn.

Shykiwi

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • Location: New Zealand
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #124 on: April 16, 2014, 04:53:45 PM »
I would investigate what happens if you get into debt for any reason whatsoever.  In some
of those countries I heard that you can be put in prison, there is no provision for bankruptcy.
I find the implications frightening.

Gerard

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1356
  • Location: eastern canada
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #125 on: April 18, 2014, 09:52:19 AM »
Here in Newfoundland, we have a lot of people who work highly-paid jobs in oil/gas or English teaching in the Middle East for a few years, and then come back to retire early.
Is the cost of living in Newfoundland super cheap?  Because teaching in the Middle East doesn't pay that much.

Newfoundland is cheap in rural areas, especially housing, but becoming expensive in St. John's (the capital). But it's mostly down to high earnings, in oil and gas. The high earners in English teaching are often at universities, teaching local English teachers. They're often there because Canada has a teacher surplus.

birdman2003

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
  • Location: Iowa
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #126 on: April 21, 2014, 11:44:00 AM »
(Reposting my question from this morning.  Thanks!)

Any good resources for finding professional jobs in the Middle East (especially if your current employer is NOT in the Oil & Gas industry)?

Did most of the people get their jobs via their current employer or did you use the internet/friend of a friend?

Start with www.gulftalent.com. There are also a lot of ME headhunters on LinkedIn.

Thanks kkbmustang!  I took a look at www.gulftalent.com and that is exactly what I was looking for.  Let the hunt begin...

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3519
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #127 on: April 21, 2014, 01:19:59 PM »
Nothing on this thread makes me think this move would be a good idea. 
Not a single thing.

kkbmustang

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1286
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #128 on: April 23, 2014, 09:08:03 AM »
(Reposting my question from this morning.  Thanks!)

Any good resources for finding professional jobs in the Middle East (especially if your current employer is NOT in the Oil & Gas industry)?

Did most of the people get their jobs via their current employer or did you use the internet/friend of a friend?

Start with www.gulftalent.com. There are also a lot of ME headhunters on LinkedIn.

Thanks kkbmustang!  I took a look at www.gulftalent.com and that is exactly what I was looking for.  Let the hunt begin...

No problem!

HankERJourney

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #129 on: May 27, 2014, 02:29:12 PM »
It has been said by some, but hereby my view: YES, of course you should go. Life is about learning, trying out new directions, new experiences, and yes, Middle East pays well, so you can work on your FI in the fast lane! I have lived in Dubai, but traveled to all the countries in Middle East, and even though Dubai is not my favorite place, I had a great time and learned a lot. So, yes, the world is (still) open, make use of it!!!

By the way, do not let yourself get constrained by the so-many hurdles that people describe in this thread, yes, there are sometimes limitations in alcohol usage in Middle East, or you might not like all rules in Islamic world, etc... but in this way, you never will see it with your own eyes, and you will never see the good things of this Middle East experience.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 02:37:27 PM by HankERJourney »

Cassie

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5251
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #130 on: May 28, 2014, 03:57:48 PM »
I have lived in many different states & enjoyed the experience but when had chance to go to Saudi did not go.  My brother went and was happy with his decision-my hubby wanted to go so I told him go but the kids & I were staying & he decided not to go.  Everyone was happy with their decision.  Only you can know what is right for you.

Mt9982

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #131 on: June 02, 2014, 08:57:17 PM »
I think racism is still pretty rampant in some parts of the US isn't it?!

And in Australia (where I live) racism against Indigenous Australians, immigrants and so-called "boat people" or "illegal immigrants" is shocking.  In fact the government is at this very moment proposing changes to the Racial Discrimination Act which will basically sanctions bigotry and hate speech. Just because racism is less obvious, doesn't mean it's any less prevalent or any less vile.

Racism is everywhere, unfortunately.  I wouldn't base your views on racism in America based on what you watch on tv.  Television in the US tends to negatively stereotype the south.

Mt9982

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #132 on: June 02, 2014, 09:03:30 PM »
It sounds like the OP has her head on straight.
* She's lived in 'foreign' cultures before.
* She's looking at different sides of issues which may crop up
* She didn't rule it out just because it's a 'Muslim country' or the Middle East
* She'll be fine, no matter what

Btw OP, I lived in Sydney part-time for 3 years. Really enjoyed the place in many ways, but the anti-Lebanese and anti-Indian racism, amongst others, gave me pause (anti-east Asian racism was discreet in comparison). To say nothing of how the Indigenous people are treated -- however I'm from the USA, so we obviously have our terrible points on this too. I was surprised at how ok it seemed to bash aboriginal people, to just ignore them as full human beings....never seen anything quite like it, but I expect in the American south it can be like that too.

Granted I have always lived in cities but I have not experienced anything in my life that makes me think racism is any worse or better in NY versus a southern city.  Again you're probably basing things on television or how things were a long time ago.  The south has had millions and millions of people move there over the last few decades and things have changed dramatically.  Is there still racism?  Yes but I think the south gets a bad rep on television and in the media.  I am always shocked about the kind of questions I receive.  For example, but wouldn't it be awful to be a black person in business in x city?  My response: the city leads the nation in African American owned businesses so I don't think so.  Or don't black people live in huge housing projects in the south?  Yes.  On a side note have you ever heard of the Bronx?

firedupdad

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #133 on: June 02, 2014, 09:34:30 PM »
OP, I say go for it. Most of the negative comments are from individuals who have never lived in the ME and are reacting to what they think rather than know.

I've lived in the UAE for almost 8 years now with my wife and three young sons. They absolutely love it here. Are there challenges? Of course there are, it is a foreign country after all. But at the end of the day, I try to respect the culture I'm in and make the most of the time I have with my family.

 At the same time,  i appreciate the fact that I'm going to be able to ER almost 15 years early because of the time spent working overseas.

Good luck with your decision.

Sent from my BNTV400 using Tapatalk


legacyoneup

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 104
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #134 on: June 02, 2014, 10:07:52 PM »
"waiting to hear about some of the finer details but DH has a job offer on a role in Qatar."

Is this a new job offer or a posting to Qatar by his current company ? If its a posting to Qatar for a fixed duration, no harm in trying it out. DH could go first and get a feel for the area / position / work environment and you and the kids could follow in a month or two.

bluecheeze

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 114
  • Age: 31
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #135 on: June 03, 2014, 04:58:08 AM »
I'll add to the thread because I am one who did decide to move to the Middle East to help my finances.

Living is not as bad as you may think- (we live on a compound so YMMV) it feels like we are at a resort, albiet surrounded by 12ft walls.  Pools, sports, gym, pretty much just like a resort except it is blistering hot in the summer and you are isolated in a "small" area.  If I had to live off camp I would not be here.

Cost of living is insane cheap (most companys take care of majority of costs- excluding meals) and you should be able to save at least 90% of the tax free super high salary that you are making.
Work is horrible over here if you take any pride in what you do.  The culture is just.....different.  Nothing gets accomplished, very slow, sort of like working for a government beauracracy.  I hate every minute that I am at work, no joke.

Normally I would not endure this at all; however, knowing that I will be able to retire in 2.5 years makes it ok.  Every month when you see your paycheck it makes it all a little better.  You pretty much live for the weekends/vacation though.  If you get with a group of expats it can be fun- again you are all here for the same reason- to make as much $$$ as possible and gtfo as soon as possible.  Be careful though- when people are making upwards of 300k they like to spend- try to stay away from this mentality.  80% of the people in my camp went out and bought 50k+ brand new cars within the first week....Funny thing is probably half of them will have dents and scratches from accidents within a year.

I was very worried about the safety at first but now it seems like not an issue at all.  Just don't put yourself in a dangerous situation and you will be fine.  Driving is absurd- almost comical if so many people wern't dying all of the time.  Try to stay off the roads.  I drive my 3 miles, er....5km ;-) to work now and as long as you are super defensive you should be fine.

Vacations are awesome- you mentioned 38days, we get about the same.  Use them and explore the world.  Don't skimp on the vacations- sure you could save an extra 20k, but you are making so much and since it sucks so bad here its the only way to stay sane- at least thats how I view it.  Italy, Greece, France, Germany, Switzerland, Maldives, Dubai, and back to the US over 2.5 months just this year.  Make sure you enjoy the travel if you go.

So yes work is horrible, but you never work over 40hrs and they don't even know what a work cellphone is I'm pretty sure (no work ever goes home with you).  What also helps me is that one goal over here was to get into top shape- I said I would not be returning to the states until I got 6 pack abs :-) so that is my driver.  That actually wasn't as hard as I thought though and my limiting factor will be the FIRE number not the health goal.   So far I am happy I took the risk and just keep looking to the future of early retirement.  I would never consider staying longer then 3 years.

Bumfluff

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 46
  • Location: England
Re: Would you move to the Middle East to help your finances?
« Reply #136 on: July 21, 2014, 10:56:31 PM »
Thank you everyone for your input. DH decided not to take the role after some (positive) work developments here but I do feel better informed should an opportunity present itself again.