The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: ChpBstrd on December 09, 2016, 09:28:36 AM
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So I discovered FI blogs like MMM about 10 months ago, did my own math, and realized that with a net worth of around 500k, the wife and I (ages 35 and 38 with one 2 year old kid) could FIRE comfortably in less than 10 years. I was ecstatic. I wanted to do whatever it takes to make that 7-8 years instead. Years of low-level frugality was going to pay off! Our dreams were within reach.
I excitedly showed the wife my forecasting spreadsheet, online calculators, and MMM posts. Somehow, she was unimpressed. I found even more stuff. Still skeptical. Finally, I took the lead and declared my intent for us to FIRE within 10 years. She accused me of becoming obsessed with unrealistic stories from the internet.
I asked if she disagreed with the math, and she said it was based on unrealistic assumptions such as a 7% ROI, health insurance being affordable, and $1.4-1.5M being enough to live on long-term. I addressed all these objections and yet she still looked at me like I had joined a cult (hmmm... the MMM logo working against me).
So here we are with incompatible life goals and a feeling that we are interfering with one another's well-being. She resents me groaning when a new $30 piece of "decor" arrives to clutter up our already-too-big house. She's irritated by my struggles not to resort to restaurant food when it's late and we're away from home. My few wins have been maxing out her 403 (b) and my 401 (k) deductions, maxing our Roth contributions, insulating the attic myself, keeping our 2 cars semi-frugal (5-6 year old subcompacts), carpooling when it's convenient, using a 2% cash back card, switching insurance and raising the deductibles, switching to an interest-paying free checking account, having a yard sale, vacationing frugally, using FSA's, and buying a little bit of baby stuff used instead of new. Setting the thermostat to 68 in the winter and 75 in the summer have started to become the norm. I've cancelled most of my hobbies.
Our burn rate decreased from $65k in 2015 to a projected $56k in 2016, but that's a long way from the $40-45k we need to target in order to FIRE on time. Our savings rate might hit 50% this year, but I would wish for 70%. We make a combined $120k per year. How hard can it friggin, be!!!?
The sites of the bleeding are lifestyle-related. Our (ahem...her) taste for premium groceries costs $6k/yr when it should be half that. We spent another $6k at restaurants. Several thousand more disappears into merchandise from Target, Amazon, etc. some of which is somewhat necessary so it's hard to judge.
If we could cut these bad habits, our spending would drop into mustache land (adjusting for day care, commuting, and other costs of being employed). We could avoid a couple YEARS of labor EACH of we were just a little tighter. She won't even look at the math.
The wife literally says "not worth it".
Oh, and he hates her job too.
W. T. F. I've done the analysis work and brought a solution on a silver platter. It's not like I'm asking her to sacrifice to support my expensive hobby. I'M INVITING HER TO BECOME A MILLIONAIRE WITH ME AND SHE SAYS NO THANKS!!! Is that reasonable?
For the $35 copays, a few months of counseling seemed a wise investment. Among other issues, my FIRE goals came up, but the counselor is a normal consumer sucka who doesn't see that as plausible either (she tries to be respectful, but I can tell).
The wife and I are out of sync. Divorce would set back my personal FIRE goals by at least another 5 years, and be miserable, so I won't even contemplate that. In fact, I must actively avoid it or most of my dreams fall apart. I see 2 realistic options:
1) PASSIVE: Accept that I'm on the slow boat to FIRE and try not to resent the years of extra labor. Don't rock the boat or come across as some sort of extremist, just let the maxed-out retirement accounts to their work in the background. Stop talking about money so much, but use my role as family CFO to quietly guide us to FIRE in 10-12 years. Don't risk the marriage over milking out another $5k/yr savings.
2) ACTIVE: Keep hammering our wasteful finances. Keep trying to get the wife onboard with FI. Yes, it'll be hard and yes, it'll involve some argument, but we're talking about preventing 2-5 years of wage slavery! Keep putting those quarterly mint.com reports on her pillow. Set strict budgets.
Which path would you take? I wonder how hard I can pull before the strong breaks?
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1) PASSIVE: Accept that I'm on the slow boat to FIRE and try not to resent the years of extra labor. Don't rock the boat or come across as some sort of extremist, just let the maxed-out retirement accounts to their work in the background. Stop talking about money so much, but use my role as family CFO to quietly guide us to FIRE in 10-12 years. Don't risk the marriage over milking out another $5k/yr savings.
2) ACTIVE: Keep hammering our wasteful finances. Keep trying to get the wife onboard with FI. Yes, it'll be hard and yes, it'll involve some argument, but we're talking about preventing 2-5 years of wage slavery! Keep putting those quarterly mint.com reports on her pillow. Set strict budgets.
Which path would you take? I wonder how hard I can pull before the strong breaks?
I'd lay off for a while. You're saving 50% of your income. Keep doing what you're doing, keep the savings where they are. Maybe increase them incrementally but telling your wife that your $500/month grocery bill should be slashed in half is probably not helpful. Do your best to keep spending down, such as ensuring that you have freezer meals when you don't feel like cooking ($500/mo at restaurants!?). But let her get comfortable with your mostly current spending/lifestyle. Once she sees that it's comfortable, she could be more amenable to the FIRE talk.
Here's a long thread about how to get your spouse on board: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/how-do-you-get-your-spouse-on-board/
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Admittedly, you sound overzealous. Its a my way or the highway mentality. I'd take offense at that too.
Marriage is compromise. That means you probably won't get your way if its important you stay married.
Its concerning when you say you've quit all your hobbies. Why? Just to reach an earlier FI date? Sheesh. That sounds depressing. Life is just as much the journey as the goal. Many would say its MORE about the former.
Anyway, if you value your marriage, you'll reign your obsession in. And yes, its an obsession.
Life is not suddenly over because of several add'l years of 'wage slavery'.
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As someone who might be in a very similar life situation as you are explaining with my new wife... I hear you. That being said there is a sticky in here about slowly getting your SO on board with FIRE. All the numbers work, all your arguments are solid to you. But she is going to need proof that frugality is not deprivation. That a $30 dollar nick nack is not just $30 but is an entire (making this up) month of work over the next decade in lost returns. Slow and steady and lead by example.
Also venting here is always cathartic.
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Dude. You have to scale way back. We each get to decide how we live our lives. Some people see others dying young and don't want to take the risk to save now enjoy later. It doesn't sound like your wife is a total consumer sucka. It sounds like she doesn't want to go 100% all in with you. There is middle ground and balance too. I don't have a lot of time or I would write more. If you don't want to end up divorced, lay off your wife. I don't like your "household CFO" attitude. It could be just the tone of your post but you shouldn't be the boss of your wife telling her what to do. The two of you need to work out a plan together that works for both of you. Don't be a bully. Now, if she has said "I don't want to think about money, here you deal with it" I guess that's a different circumstance. You even said your wife also works. I think she has a say either way but from her perspective, she's working for her money too and she can spend it how she sees fit.
What if you divide up all of your expenses and figure out what portion each of you are responsible for. She can work to cover hers. You can save and invest to cover yours.
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I discovered MMM a few years ago and my husband knows that I follow it and we have shared goals for savings and paying off our debt. But we have never actually discussed RE, so I don't know even what his thoughts are on that.
You are at a 50% SR and talking divorce after 10 months of discovering this? That's crazy. You need to take a step back, possibly pursue individual therapy, and examine how you might be contributing to the untenable dynamic in your marriage. Math isn't everything. Also, there are many people who retire before their spouses.
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Dude. You have to scale way back. We each get to decide how we live our lives. Some people see others dying young and don't want to take the risk to save now enjoy later. It doesn't sound like your wife is a total consumer sucka. It sounds like she doesn't want to go 100% all in with you. There is middle ground and balance too. I don't have a lot of time or I would write more. If you don't want to end up divorced, lay off your wife. I don't like your "household CFO" attitude. It could be just the tone of your post but you shouldn't be the boss of your wife telling her what to do. The two of you need to work out a plan together that works for both of you. Don't be a bully. Now, if she has said "I don't want to think about money, here you deal with it" I guess that's a different circumstance. You even said your wife also works. I think she has a say either way but from her perspective, she's working for her money too and she can spend it how she sees fit.
What if you divide up all of your expenses and figure out what portion each of you are responsible for. She can work to cover hers. You can save and invest to cover yours.
This. If your post is anything like you sound in real life, your wife might divorce you. Take a deep breath and following your own suggestion: "Don't risk the marriage over milking out another $5k/yr savings."
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Divorce would set back my personal FIRE goals by at least another 5 years, and be miserable, so I won't even contemplate that. In fact, I must actively avoid it or most of my dreams fall apart.
Keep reminding yourself of this.
Honestly - is a couple of years of extra work REALLY worth this?
My husband and I consider ourselves to have an amazing marriage and to be very financially compatible. That said, even after years of planning for FIRE, I have no idea if they will become a reality according to my plans. Pretty sure my husband is going to push hard for One More Year for a while. And there is NO WAY we will FIRE without his 100% agreement. This is a joint decision that affects the both of us and we will BOTH be making the decision together.
If I had my way, we'd cut our expenses back and FIRE right now. But DH is really, really into eating out a lot right now. In fact, we had a long conversation about it late last night. He was diagnosed with cancer early this year and is in remission right now. Since that is over, I thought our spending would return to more normal levels. Last night, he told me he REALLY wants to keep on eating out more (1-2x a week or more!!) and "enjoying life". I was rather blunt lol and asked him why he couldn't find free ways to enjoy life. That said, if this is what he really wants to do, then I will suck it up and go with it (even though I'm going to keep campaigning for FIRE!). It's worth it to make him happy.
I would suggest that rather than just a straight shot to FIRE, which is what YOU have decided will make YOU happy - you have to also consider what will make your WIFE happy. And it sounds like she considers FIRE a)an exercise in deprivation (sounds like that's what you are showing her it is by cutting back on everything she enjoys) and b)an impossible dream (i.e. she doesn't trust your numbers and doesn't feel secure).
Don't forget...the need for security is a pretty tangible thing. Doing "what everyone else does" does offer a feeling of security. I know that even though DH trusts me, he doesn't entirely trust FIRE math. I'm also still working on him to trust the whole Couch Potato investing thing - he'd MUCH prefer to go back to Edward Jones and the like and jump on funds that show a nice big green return percentage. He is NOT happy with the performance of our ETF funds over the past year.
Ultimately, what is the most important factor behind your FIRE goals? An extra $5k savings a year? Or a strong marriage? I'd suggest you let FIRE talk slide for now and focus on your marriage. Keep telling your wife how amazing she is, find all the wonderful things you love about her and focus on those.
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I'll agree with the general sentiment so far. Sure, saving 70% is better than saving 50%, but it's not like your hair is on fire. You're already doing the broad strokes "correctly"; everything beyond is minutia.
Reel it in a bit with your wife, enjoy your 50% savings rate, see your goal get closer, and maybe focus on more incremental change. Don't be rash to point out everything as ridiculous (as brash as MMM can be on his blog, he's preaching to the choir and he knows it, so it works), pick your battles where they matter the most. Maybe reframe some of them. If you eat out less, you can eat healthier food more often at home for a double win. That sort of thing. Play to her values too (you said she likes "premium" groceries), don't just rehash your own.
Find ways to accomplish what she wants in a cheaper manner (and be willing to put in the legwork yourself).
If she likes those "premium" groceries, find staples on sale and stock up. Maybe a chest freezer to store on-sale meat? Show that you're willing to spend money to save money (initial cost of $x, operating cost of $y, but saving us $z/year), you're not just a no-spending-nazi but pragmatically trying to improve your long-term future together.
If she likes to shop on Amazon, maybe introduce her to tools like Camelcamelcamel price tracking. That can help her make sure she's getting a "deal" on whatever she's buying, but the secret secondary effect is that doing that could potentially curb impulse-buying.
And do lead by example. But you seem to already be doing that.
Work with her, not at her.
My few wins have been maxing out her 403 (b) and my 401 (k) deductions, maxing our Roth contributions, insulating the attic myself, keeping our 2 cars semi-frugal (5-6 year old subcompacts), carpooling when it's convenient, using a 2% cash back card, switching insurance and raising the deductibles, switching to an interest-paying free checking account, having a yard sale, vacationing frugally, using FSA's, and buying a little bit of baby stuff used instead of new. Setting the thermostat to 68 in the winter and 75 in the summer have started to become the norm.
Far from "a few wins" dude. You're ahead of 99% of the population right there.
Maybe not 99th percentile Mustachian or by whatever extreme measuring stick you find yourself using when reading about this stuff all the time (your wife does not), but you're already doing it "right."
I've cancelled most of my hobbies.
Careful there. Depending on how expensive your hobbies are, that could be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You don't want to resent your wife because you quit something you love to save a few bucks and she might "fritter away" more than that on something you view as "useless." Or, maybe find new hobbies that make you a little money, or least end up free/break even.
To paraphrase Del Griffith: Like financial independence, love your wife.
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My fiancé was originally really opposed to the idea but she is now 100% for it... What worked for me was: I got her to watch MMM's World Domination Summit video, and that made a lot of sense to her, and got her really excited. I then explained that if you look at our expense categories on a pie chart, really only Housing, Transportation and food matter in terms of making a difference (its not like she is going to wear battered clothes and have a horrible existence). Thus I said, we are two people with no kids, we don't need a huge house, and she agreed. I said we can live close to work to cut down on transportation, which she was fine with. And then I started cooking meals at home to show her that we were eating higher quality food for less money, which got her on that bandwagon as well. The cherry on top was showing her how much money she had wasted in taxes over the years by not maxing her 401k. (And yes it is a tax savings because we would have paid taxes in a higher bracket than we will pull out the money in retirement).
Anyway, I wouldn't be overly persistent but you need to be the change agent. Take the initiative to cook the meals yourself. The change formula is: Dissatisfaction with current state + Vision for First Steps + Vision of a potential better future state > Resistance. Lower resistance by taking the initiative to do some of the cooking etc. on the front-end while casually mentioning your vision for a better future state, providing first steps, etc. Sometimes what we value differs from what other people... I find that her and I want to retire early, but for completely different reasons. When I tried to tell her why I wanted to retire early she thought it was the stupidest idea she had ever heard. Mr. MMM on stage for 20 minutes however really spoke to her!
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...My few wins have been maxing out her 403 (b) and my 401 (k) deductions, maxing our Roth contributions, insulating the attic myself, keeping our 2 cars semi-frugal (5-6 year old subcompacts), carpooling when it's convenient, using a 2% cash back card, switching insurance and raising the deductibles, switching to an interest-paying free checking account, having a yard sale, vacationing frugally, using FSA's, and buying a little bit of baby stuff used instead of new. Setting the thermostat to 68 in the winter and 75 in the summer have started to become the norm. I've cancelled most of my hobbies.
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few wins ... ? You've made huge leaps in 10 months. Take her out to a restaurant to celebrate ;) (I jest!)
But seriously, she clearly isn't motivated by spreadsheets and math (only weirdos like you and me are!) What IS she motivated by? As you said, she hates her job. What else doesn't she like? What does she like?
You're talking about balance; shifting the balance from spending now that probably doesn't provide much joy towards having the money to spend on freedom 8-10 years from now, which will provide a certain joy (at least to you - what would her life look like if she really didn't have to work if she chose not to?) Instead of preaching and marketing and selling, ask her questions and actually listen. Figure out her motivations and joys in life.
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Do you have kids?
If not, the easy thing to do is separate out your finances. This is not something I normally suggest, since I'm firmly in the "combined finances for committed couples" camp, but it could save your marriage.
Then you divide the "needs" expenses in half, and each of you can spend your money however you want. You can save and retire early. She can spend and work until 67 years old. Everyone wins... I guess.
Anyway, if you do this, be careful. The idea is to reduce arguments over money, so you suggesting you should only pay $50 a month in groceries is going to cause more headache. And no one wants to start labeling stuff in the fridge, etc...
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So let me get this straight. Your wife has voluntarily reduced the household overall spending (with you) by $9k this year alone and you're upset that it is not enough to meet the deadline that you and you alone dictated to her?
This type of post pops up on the fourums ALL. THE. TIME.
It is a common complaint for people who just discovered MMM. Someone already pointed out there is a thread that gives steps on how to convince your spouse to the MMM way of thinking.
Just by what you listed of the cuts you two have made, your wife is already open to it, you're just not paying attention.
If she wasn't open to it, she would be turning up the thermostat after you lower it. She would be buying brand new baby stuff all the time instead of some used items.
You're not going to convince her with spreadsheet, however you can convince her that a more frugal life is achievable without that much effort.
I'm not sure if you do the grocery shopping but if you aren't then start there. Look to reduce your grocery bill. If you know you and your wife will be home late, head off the argument about a restaurant by having thing either in the crockpot already or already prepped so you can cook it when you get home.
There are a lot of ways you can show her how easy it is.
ETA: When she talks about her concerns, do not dismiss them by showing her another blog post about how some guy in Colorado did it. Instead ask her to open up about her concerns and try to come up with ways to the two of you can alleviate those concerns as a team.
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I'm one of the more hardcore ER advocates here, but I would happily and without hesitation work until age 65 if that's what my wife wanted. Nothing is more important than my marriage, including my financial goals.
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This post almost seems like trolling. Your comment about divorce is depressing and revealing. The only reason you don't want to get divorced is because it'll set back your FIRE dreams? Seriously? That's what your marriage is worth to you?
This is a case of highly distorted priorities. Do you love your wife? Value her companionship and her role as the mother of your children? Value the committed relationship that you have built with her over years--something irreplaceable?
If my husband posted something like this on an internet forum I would feel betrayed and unloved. I was single from age 21-32 and am now very happily married--I can tell you that although I was a happy single person, I thank my husband for marrying me every single day, and not because of our finances (which are admittedly very good) but because he cares for me and I treasure our relationship and do not take it for granted.
Money and early retirement aren't everything. 'Tis the season: maybe it's time for you to read "A Christmas Carol" by Charles Dickens.
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Celebrate your victories, you cheap bastard! ;)
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I'm one of the more hardcore ER advocates here, but I would happily and without hesitation work until age 65 if that's what my wife wanted. Nothing is more important than my marriage, including my financial goals.
WOW Sol! I didn't know you were an old softy on the inside.
To the OP. I was were you were about 2 years ago when I really jumped on the FIRE wagon. I had to learn the hard way that I could not dictate what was important to my wife and make her behave a certain way. That what I get for being a programmer.
So after a year of two of just focusing on what I can control and give suggestions and alternatives to my wife without ordering. We have come a long way from our spendy ways. Just yesterday after driving home from the Zoo, it was a free day for SF residents, she took out a towel from the car and started wiping it down. She said, "I love it when it rains, free car wash!". That just put the biggest smile on my face. I would have never expected that from her just two years ago.
Don't be pushy but don't give up on the FIRE dream either, focus on what you can control and hopefully they will also see the value in your actions and join you.
Good luck.
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she said it was based on unrealistic assumptions such as a 7% ROI, health insurance being affordable, and $1.4-1.5M being enough to live on long-term.
Sorry but I'm with your wife. With the ACA going away, how is $1.5M enough for a family of three to retire at 45 in the US when you have to buy your own insurance with no subsidy?
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Agree with all that has been said above. My husband was never into FIRE. He retired at 64 with a nice retirement package. Because he knew FI was important to me, however, he did contribute the max to his retirement plan and put money from every paycheck into additional savings. In return, we set aside what he calls a "slush fund". That's money he gets to spend on anything he wants, no questions asked from me. The slush fund has had an interesting psychological effect on him. Because it's there, he's quite reluctant to spend it.
I don't like eating out. He does. What I have learned to do is cook his favorite restaurant meals at home. So we eat out less. When we travel, I have a cooler in the back packed with cheese sticks, celery, pretzels,carrots and apples.
It's all about compromise. It sounds like she's made plenty. Now it's your turn.
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I'm with the 'chill dude' crowd. You've made some progress, but to keep pushing her when she's not willing could very well find you in front of a judge telling you to pay her half. You found something new and exciting (MMM) and want to dive in head first. She's not ready for that giant leap and you need to understand that. Add in a baby (either on the way or just born, you didn't state which) and it's already a new world, one which she already has (or will have) her hands full, emotions are high and the last thing she needs is a partner pushing for her to change everything even more than it already is.
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I didn't know you were an old softy on the inside.
I don't think you need to be a softy to recognize that there are more important things in life than money, and there are certainly more important things in life than having so much money that you can goof off for the rest of your life.
Money is a means to an end. We try to trade it for happiness, which requires that you value the happiness more then you value the ability to buy happiness. I know lots of very miserable rich people, and for many of them the root of their misery is relationship problems brought on by having too much money. I want to shake them and scream "you're doing it wrong!"
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Dude, you don't give your wife the credit she deserves. It's hard to live with a cheap bastard. It's a horrible existence when every purchase you make is scrutinised and you are ridiculed all the time for your spendind decisions. I used to live with a cheap bastard and it was not fun.
At every 30 $ amazon purchase she makes, i give you permission to think of my husbands 55k truck. That should make you feel better. And we can still retire in 10 years 😈
Chill. And be nice to the wife. Having his and hers spending money should help in your situation.
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Passive - just stop pushing it. Keep on as you are now, look for more efficiencies that YOU can implement without hassling your wife about it, as other have suggested.
My DH has no interest in finances, doesn't think about money, says money isn't real. Ok, so I'm happy to take on our finances, but I was SAHM for nearly 20 years. If I wanted 401k savings, I had to convince him to sign up. When they cut the match (which convinced him to sign up) he wanted to stop contributing. I did the number crunching and tweaked his withholdings to double his 401k contributions but keep the take home pretty much the same (to make the change painless). When we paid off the student loans, I got him to increase the contributions, doubling them again. Little bumps, made them as painless as possible, did the legwork myself, chose my timing (not constant badgering, just when an opportunity presented itself), and put a positive spin on it for him (not me, or FI).
I worked on several fronts at the same time. I found ways to pay down our mortgage early (it was an ugly 9.75%). When that was gone, it was time for a big bump in retirement savings; the previous gradual doubles had lowered his knee-jerk resistance, and we compromised. He wanted to stop teaching summer school, cutting our income, but without a mortgage we could still afford to put 50% into his 401k. Our even lower AGI resulted in large refundable tax credits, so I began funding Roth IRAs with those (previously they had been big chunks paying down the mortgage). I kept learning and quietly optimizing, while DH scoffed at the idea of ever retiring. I would occasionally talk about interesting new ideas I'd read on MMM, he jokingly poohpoohed it as impossible; it was a running joke between us.
Then, one day when he was really fed up with his job he had a paradigm shift and asked me seriously if RE was really possible. We weren't there yet, but we're at the FU money stage. If he really wanted to quit and pursue something else he could. He also had a pile of sick leave and PTO time accrued. In the past he wouldn't have even bothered to value that, too much trouble to pursue, but now he checked all the rules & asked all the questions needed to get as much $ as possible. He had me figure how to take the payout to minimize taxes (we nearly maxed his 401k for the year, leaving a bit of space to capture a new employer match, and split up payments). It was enough to cover expenses for the rest of the year.
So he's come around, not a full convert, but happy to take advantage when it works in his favor. He still jokes when a retirement account statement comes in the mail -"Here's YOUR money", but he's content to let me make my plans as long as I don't hassle him too much about costs.
Drop the lectures and preaching, the hard sell won't work in your favor. Just maintain momentum quietly. If a great opportunity presents itself, then negotiate benefits for both of you (more savings for you, ?? for wife).
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I agree with most everyone else.
And $6k a year on groceries isn't so much "premium", depending on where you live. I work HARD on my grocery bill and we are over that for a family of 4.
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Thanks for slapping me around a little bit, everyone. <--Honestly! The consensus has been received. I can see a few things to clear up:
-My language here is a LOT more coarse than I would actually use with the wife. I'm absolutely venting my frustration. So maybe the question is how to deal with frustration when one's spouse is only willing to walk to FI and you want to run.
-The divorce comment was intended to head off that suggestion from commentors, not equate the value of my marriage with my FI goals. That said, the wife and I are not as close as either of us would like for non financial reasons, hence the investment in counseling (my idea).
-Yes, my little wins are all good, and I do congratulate my wife and myself. But keep in mind we're still spending/bleeding $57k a year. And that's in a small city in the deep South where the median income is like $28k and we're pulling in $120k (perhaps temporarily). In California, this same luxury lifestyle would cost around $100-200k a year. So no, not even with an almost 50% savings rate do we deserve to be called mustachian.
-We do have a 2 year old, and the cancellation of most hobbies is more a result of the kid and my shift to being a highly involved, contributing dad than my cheap bastardom. I found MMM at a time when I had lost every last bit of free time or ability to direct my own life. Boom. There's the light at the end of the tunnel. Boom. New life missions: raise kid, retire young.
-As mentioned above, maybe this post is about learning to deal with my own impatience and frustration, rather than getting the wife to agree upon a life mission together. Yes, we have it relatively good among the wage slaves, but I'm watching beautiful days go by from an office window. I'm looking back at 2009 and the index fund investments that would have made me already FI. I'm seeing every restaurant meal as a setback, and the reason I can't have my life back from work. Shit. 10 more years? Then I do the typical human thing and look for a scapegoat: I have to live with two more years of work because my spouse thinks Etsy crap is cute?
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Passive - just stop pushing it. Keep on as you are now, look for more efficiencies that YOU can implement without hassling your wife about it, as other have suggested.
My DH has no interest in finances, doesn't think about money, says money isn't real. Ok, so I'm happy to take on our finances, but I was SAHM for nearly 20 years. If I wanted 401k savings, I had to convince him to sign up. When they cut the match (which convinced him to sign up) he wanted to stop contributing. I did the number crunching and tweaked his withholdings to double his 401k contributions but keep the take home pretty much the same (to make the change painless). When we paid off the student loans, I got him to increase the contributions, doubling them again. Little bumps, made them as painless as possible, did the legwork myself, chose my timing (not constant badgering, just when an opportunity presented itself), and put a positive spin on it for him (not me, or FI).
I worked on several fronts at the same time. I found ways to pay down our mortgage early (it was an ugly 9.75%). When that was gone, it was time for a big bump in retirement savings; the previous gradual doubles had lowered his knee-jerk resistance, and we compromised. He wanted to stop teaching summer school, cutting our income, but without a mortgage we could still afford to put 50% into his 401k. Our even lower AGI resulted in large refundable tax credits, so I began funding Roth IRAs with those (previously they had been big chunks paying down the mortgage). I kept learning and quietly optimizing, while DH scoffed at the idea of ever retiring. I would occasionally talk about interesting new ideas I'd read on MMM, he jokingly poohpoohed it as impossible; it was a running joke between us.
Then, one day when he was really fed up with his job he had a paradigm shift and asked me seriously if RE was really possible. We weren't there yet, but we're at the FU money stage. If he really wanted to quit and pursue something else he could. He also had a pile of sick leave and PTO time accrued. In the past he wouldn't have even bothered to value that, too much trouble to pursue, but now he checked all the rules & asked all the questions needed to get as much $ as possible. He had me figure how to take the payout to minimize taxes (we nearly maxed his 401k for the year, leaving a bit of space to capture a new employer match, and split up payments). It was enough to cover expenses for the rest of the year.
So he's come around, not a full convert, but happy to take advantage when it works in his favor. He still jokes when a retirement account statement comes in the mail -"Here's YOUR money", but he's content to let me make my plans as long as I don't hassle him too much about costs.
Drop the lectures and preaching, the hard sell won't work in your favor. Just maintain momentum quietly. If a great opportunity presents itself, then negotiate benefits for both of you (more savings for you, ?? for wife).
This is pretty mature, saintly behavior on your part. I hope he appreciates you.
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Also, my comment about being the family CFO was based on the role I have assumed due to my wife's lack of interest in the subject. When we were dating, I found a pile of almost-overdue utility bills as I was clearing papers off the coffee table so we could eat. Yea, I'll take care of that for us. :)
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I'm seeing every restaurant meal as a setback, and the reason I can't have my life back from work. Shit. 10 more years? Then I do the typical human thing and look for a scapegoat: I have to live with two more years of work because my spouse thinks Etsy crap is cute?
I really appreciate this thread Cheap, I was chuckling about it earlier today because I've been dealing with similar hurdles and then when I went to lunch I got a text about ordering take out tonight because the wife is too tired to cook. (This is legitimate we just got married and moved across the country for work so she's at home all day with 2 kids cleaning and unpacking an entire house and hurt her back moving furniture upstairs alone instead of waiting for me). My answer, I'll cook tonight no big deal, time to make some homemade pizza dough and then the kids have a blast decorating their own pizza's while the wife relaxes from doing house work all week. Money saved, wife happy and eating what she wanted to order for dinner, kiddos pacified and we all WIN!
As far as Etsy goes, good luck there. Baby steps.
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Passive - just stop pushing it. Keep on as you are now, look for more efficiencies that YOU can implement without hassling your wife about it, as other have suggested.
My DH has no interest in finances, doesn't think about money, says money isn't real. Ok, so I'm happy to take on our finances, but I was SAHM for nearly 20 years. If I wanted 401k savings, I had to convince him to sign up. When they cut the match (which convinced him to sign up) he wanted to stop contributing. I did the number crunching and tweaked his withholdings to double his 401k contributions but keep the take home pretty much the same (to make the change painless). When we paid off the student loans, I got him to increase the contributions, doubling them again. Little bumps, made them as painless as possible, did the legwork myself, chose my timing (not constant badgering, just when an opportunity presented itself), and put a positive spin on it for him (not me, or FI).
I worked on several fronts at the same time. I found ways to pay down our mortgage early (it was an ugly 9.75%). When that was gone, it was time for a big bump in retirement savings; the previous gradual doubles had lowered his knee-jerk resistance, and we compromised. He wanted to stop teaching summer school, cutting our income, but without a mortgage we could still afford to put 50% into his 401k. Our even lower AGI resulted in large refundable tax credits, so I began funding Roth IRAs with those (previously they had been big chunks paying down the mortgage). I kept learning and quietly optimizing, while DH scoffed at the idea of ever retiring. I would occasionally talk about interesting new ideas I'd read on MMM, he jokingly poohpoohed it as impossible; it was a running joke between us.
Then, one day when he was really fed up with his job he had a paradigm shift and asked me seriously if RE was really possible. We weren't there yet, but we're at the FU money stage. If he really wanted to quit and pursue something else he could. He also had a pile of sick leave and PTO time accrued. In the past he wouldn't have even bothered to value that, too much trouble to pursue, but now he checked all the rules & asked all the questions needed to get as much $ as possible. He had me figure how to take the payout to minimize taxes (we nearly maxed his 401k for the year, leaving a bit of space to capture a new employer match, and split up payments). It was enough to cover expenses for the rest of the year.
So he's come around, not a full convert, but happy to take advantage when it works in his favor. He still jokes when a retirement account statement comes in the mail -"Here's YOUR money", but he's content to let me make my plans as long as I don't hassle him too much about costs.
Drop the lectures and preaching, the hard sell won't work in your favor. Just maintain momentum quietly. If a great opportunity presents itself, then negotiate benefits for both of you (more savings for you, ?? for wife).
Great story. I guess the passive approach can work! Thanks for this.
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Passive - just stop pushing it. Keep on as you are now, look for more efficiencies that YOU can implement without hassling your wife about it, as other have suggested.
My DH has no interest in finances, doesn't think about money, says money isn't real. Ok, so I'm happy to take on our finances, but I was SAHM for nearly 20 years. If I wanted 401k savings, I had to convince him to sign up. When they cut the match (which convinced him to sign up) he wanted to stop contributing. I did the number crunching and tweaked his withholdings to double his 401k contributions but keep the take home pretty much the same (to make the change painless). When we paid off the student loans, I got him to increase the contributions, doubling them again. Little bumps, made them as painless as possible, did the legwork myself, chose my timing (not constant badgering, just when an opportunity presented itself), and put a positive spin on it for him (not me, or FI).
I worked on several fronts at the same time. I found ways to pay down our mortgage early (it was an ugly 9.75%). When that was gone, it was time for a big bump in retirement savings; the previous gradual doubles had lowered his knee-jerk resistance, and we compromised. He wanted to stop teaching summer school, cutting our income, but without a mortgage we could still afford to put 50% into his 401k. Our even lower AGI resulted in large refundable tax credits, so I began funding Roth IRAs with those (previously they had been big chunks paying down the mortgage). I kept learning and quietly optimizing, while DH scoffed at the idea of ever retiring. I would occasionally talk about interesting new ideas I'd read on MMM, he jokingly poohpoohed it as impossible; it was a running joke between us.
Then, one day when he was really fed up with his job he had a paradigm shift and asked me seriously if RE was really possible. We weren't there yet, but we're at the FU money stage. If he really wanted to quit and pursue something else he could. He also had a pile of sick leave and PTO time accrued. In the past he wouldn't have even bothered to value that, too much trouble to pursue, but now he checked all the rules & asked all the questions needed to get as much $ as possible. He had me figure how to take the payout to minimize taxes (we nearly maxed his 401k for the year, leaving a bit of space to capture a new employer match, and split up payments). It was enough to cover expenses for the rest of the year.
So he's come around, not a full convert, but happy to take advantage when it works in his favor. He still jokes when a retirement account statement comes in the mail -"Here's YOUR money", but he's content to let me make my plans as long as I don't hassle him too much about costs.
Drop the lectures and preaching, the hard sell won't work in your favor. Just maintain momentum quietly. If a great opportunity presents itself, then negotiate benefits for both of you (more savings for you, ?? for wife).
This is pretty mature, saintly behavior on your part. I hope he appreciates you.
Ha, saintly behavior! Not sure those are the words he'd use - cheap bastard might be closer to his opinion. Have to run a tight ship, financially, with 5 kids and one low income. Now one and a half income, largely stuffed into investments.
But, yes, he appreciates me and realizes we live a pretty comfortable life due to my math fluency and my tight financial ship.
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-We do have a 2 year old, and the cancellation of most hobbies is more a result of the kid and my shift to being a highly involved, contributing dad than my cheap bastardom. I found MMM at a time when I had lost every last bit of free time or ability to direct my own life. Boom. There's the light at the end of the tunnel. Boom. New life missions: raise kid, retire young.
This explains a lot. Men(probably women too) think weird stuff when its been two years since you had a good night's sleep, really good sex, or any substantial amount of free time. When my daughter was about two, I found happiness with scaling back my work and spending more time with the family. It may have set back our financial goals, but it gave me back the feeling that I was living, not just surviving. By about the time she turned 4, the thoughts and feelings that all I do is work and change diapers went away.
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Passive - just stop pushing it. Keep on as you are now, look for more efficiencies that YOU can implement without hassling your wife about it, as other have suggested.
great story, thanks for sharing it!
This explains a lot. Men(probably women too) think weird stuff when its been two years since you had a good night's sleep, really good sex, or any substantial amount of free time. When my daughter was about two, I found happiness with scaling back my work and spending more time with the family. It may have set back our financial goals, but it gave me back the feeling that I was living, not just surviving. By about the time she turned 4, the thoughts and feelings that all I do is work and change diapers went away.
same here. having my first kid directly led to thinking about an exit strategy.
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I suggest you think about ways to increase your income. Perhaps when you get a yearly raise at work, if you get one, think about ways to apply the "extra" to your FI goals, if your wife will agree that you and she can live the same way you've been living, on the same amount of money. Or, you can do what lots of people do and get a side hustle to make more money. With a small child at home and a full time job, this may be a challenge, but it's one that a lot of people do. Especially if one of your "hobbies" is something like reffing games for local sports leagues.
The main thing I'm trying to say is that instead of trying to get your wife to spend less, perhaps you could think about ways you could make more.
And I'm with the others-- a 50% savings rate is actually pretty fantastic. Especially with the maxing of the retirement accounts, the frugal cars, and the other things you have in your "win" column.
Good luck. I didn't think your first post sounded as strident as maybe some of the others did. It sounds like you want your life of freedom WITH your wife to start as soon as possible, and you're venting that she doesn't quite see it your way.
Oh, and one last, evil-ly manipulative thing. If your wife comes home from work some day particularly frustrated with something that happened at the office, maybe ask her "Wouldn't it be great if you were free from that job?"
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Passive - just stop pushing it. Keep on as you are now, look for more efficiencies that YOU can implement without hassling your wife about it, as other have suggested.
My DH has no interest in finances, doesn't think about money, says money isn't real. Ok, so I'm happy to take on our finances, but I was SAHM for nearly 20 years. If I wanted 401k savings, I had to convince him to sign up. When they cut the match (which convinced him to sign up) he wanted to stop contributing. I did the number crunching and tweaked his withholdings to double his 401k contributions but keep the take home pretty much the same (to make the change painless). When we paid off the student loans, I got him to increase the contributions, doubling them again. Little bumps, made them as painless as possible, did the legwork myself, chose my timing (not constant badgering, just when an opportunity presented itself), and put a positive spin on it for him (not me, or FI).
I worked on several fronts at the same time. I found ways to pay down our mortgage early (it was an ugly 9.75%). When that was gone, it was time for a big bump in retirement savings; the previous gradual doubles had lowered his knee-jerk resistance, and we compromised. He wanted to stop teaching summer school, cutting our income, but without a mortgage we could still afford to put 50% into his 401k. Our even lower AGI resulted in large refundable tax credits, so I began funding Roth IRAs with those (previously they had been big chunks paying down the mortgage). I kept learning and quietly optimizing, while DH scoffed at the idea of ever retiring. I would occasionally talk about interesting new ideas I'd read on MMM, he jokingly poohpoohed it as impossible; it was a running joke between us.
Then, one day when he was really fed up with his job he had a paradigm shift and asked me seriously if RE was really possible. We weren't there yet, but we're at the FU money stage. If he really wanted to quit and pursue something else he could. He also had a pile of sick leave and PTO time accrued. In the past he wouldn't have even bothered to value that, too much trouble to pursue, but now he checked all the rules & asked all the questions needed to get as much $ as possible. He had me figure how to take the payout to minimize taxes (we nearly maxed his 401k for the year, leaving a bit of space to capture a new employer match, and split up payments). It was enough to cover expenses for the rest of the year.
So he's come around, not a full convert, but happy to take advantage when it works in his favor. He still jokes when a retirement account statement comes in the mail -"Here's YOUR money", but he's content to let me make my plans as long as I don't hassle him too much about costs.
Drop the lectures and preaching, the hard sell won't work in your favor. Just maintain momentum quietly. If a great opportunity presents itself, then negotiate benefits for both of you (more savings for you, ?? for wife).
Great story. I guess the passive approach can work! Thanks for this.
Your savings rate is better than mine, and my wife does not spend all that much. When I saw your progress, I thought, "Wow, he is already killing it."
I am unlike most on here. Old fashioned. Patriarchal. Woman should be submissive to the man, and all that (something with which my wife agrees and even sometimes gets on to me about if I falter), and even I think you need to relax a little about this to keep your marriage together.
My advice - drop the issue altogether for a month (a full 30 days). When you bring it up again, just bring up one thing alone. $500 is a lot for eating out every month (you said $6000 a year). Just ask her what she thinks about the family limiting eating out to a couple hundred bucks a month for a while and see how it goes. A couple hundred bucks sounds like a lot, but is a 60% reduction for your family. Then, see how it goes. Do not bring up anything else like Etsy spending. Then just gain a little more efficiency in one area at a time.
You are making good progress. You can't expect her to turn into a zealous MMM fanatic like you are overnight.
If you end up increasing your savings rate from 50% to 60% over time, you will still be way ahead.
If you divorce, because you are going crazy about money (and yes, everybody else will put it that way), well, savings rates are tough when there is child support to be paid . . .
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I suggest you think about ways to increase your income. Perhaps when you get a yearly raise at work, if you get one, think about ways to apply the "extra" to your FI goals, if your wife will agree that you and she can live the same way you've been living, on the same amount of money. Or, you can do what lots of people do and get a side hustle to make more money. With a small child at home and a full time job, this may be a challenge, but it's one that a lot of people do. Especially if one of your "hobbies" is something like reffing games for local sports leagues.
The main thing I'm trying to say is that instead of trying to get your wife to spend less, perhaps you could think about ways you could make more.
And I'm with the others-- a 50% savings rate is actually pretty fantastic. Especially with the maxing of the retirement accounts, the frugal cars, and the other things you have in your "win" column.
Good luck. I didn't think your first post sounded as strident as maybe some of the others did. It sounds like you want your life of freedom WITH your wife to start as soon as possible, and you're venting that she doesn't quite see it your way.
Oh, and one last, evil-ly manipulative thing. If your wife comes home from work some day particularly frustrated with something that happened at the office, maybe ask her "Wouldn't it be great if you were free from that job?"
I'm already too short on time for an effective side hustle. Shortness of time may also relate to the marital difficulties and life frustration in general. Probably not an option, although I've considered blogging, eBay sales, etc.
I'm mainly considering a renewed focus on my career, networking, and taking long shots at higher paying jobs. This is my best idea for how to make $10k more next year than this year. However, even that approach comes with some overtime.
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While I agree with most of the others above, I do think you can still push a bit but you need to find what motivates her. If you can't find anything, be happy with your 50% savings rate. You're doing great as it is, partly because your wife IS on board with a high savings rate.
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Thanks all. I also have some potentially passive-aggressive semi-ethical strategies and need some second opinions:
1) HUNGER STRIKE: When we go to a restaurant, occasionally don't order anything. Explain that I'd rather the money to go savings. Lead by example and learn self control simultaneously.
2) BRIBERY: When the wife is about to buy something, offer "If you don't buy that trinket, I'll give you a 20 minute back massage tonight." And that's how you work for your spouse at $100/hour. The risk is that more trinkets are considered in exchange for more back rubs.
3) COMPETITIVE EXTORTION & SHAMING: Separate my and her credit card accounts. Pay for household necessities only from a third account. Watch who spends more on themselves.
4) CUT LOOSE: Un-merge our finances. Contribute half and half to a shared household expense account. If we as a couple need $1.5M to retire, either of us can retire as soon as we individually have saved $750k. The risk being that the deal might not be upheld after the first one hits their number.
Too far?
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Thanks all. I also have some potentially passive-aggressive semi-ethical strategies and need some second opinions:
1) HUNGER STRIKE: When we go to a restaurant, occasionally don't order anything. Explain that I'd rather the money to go savings. Lead by example and learn self control simultaneously.
LOL! I hope this is a joke. First, you are a man. Do not do passive-aggessive. Period. How are you to be respected by your wife if you behave in this manner? You talk about leading by example - you do NOT go to the restaurant. Sheesh.
I am not even sure I want to get into the rest of them.
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This is not sarcasm: Do you really want your marriage to work?
My opinion is that any one of these strategies seems like an effective way to further alienate your wife.
What are you learning in your marriage counseling? I have to imagine some of it has to do with being more empathetic toward one another. Take the advice others in this thread have already given you and find ways to compromise and still make progress.
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Thanks all. I also have some potentially passive-aggressive semi-ethical strategies and need some second opinions:
1) HUNGER STRIKE: When we go to a restaurant, occasionally don't order anything. Explain that I'd rather the money to go savings. Lead by example and learn self control simultaneously.
2) BRIBERY: When the wife is about to buy something, offer "If you don't buy that trinket, I'll give you a 20 minute back massage tonight." And that's how you work for your spouse at $100/hour. The risk is that more trinkets are considered in exchange for more back rubs.
3) COMPETITIVE EXTORTION & SHAMING: Separate my and her credit card accounts. Pay for household necessities only from a third account. Watch who spends more on themselves.
4) CUT LOOSE: Un-merge our finances. Contribute half and half to a shared household expense account. If we as a couple need $1.5M to retire, either of us can retire as soon as we individually have saved $750k. The risk being that the deal might not be upheld after the first one hits their number.
Too far?
Wow. Forget what I wrote above about you not sounding as strident as some others have thought. Just wow. If my SO ever acted like that, we'd have big problems.
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Too far?
Yes. You are being rediculous. You've been at this for 10 months... TEN months. What was life like before you started reading MMM... I'll bet it's been quite a change for your wife, I can completely understand why she is being aprehensive.
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Agree with a lot of what has already been said. One thing I noticed though... "She's irritated by my struggles not to resort to restaurant food when it's late and we're away from home."-- is the cooking duty put on her when this is the case? If so, step up and be the one to prepare the meal. Spend a day setting up meals you can put in the freezer to eat later. Be the one to get up a half hour early and pack a lunch/dinner/picnic/whatever when you know you'll be spending the day away from home.
If your desire to reduce expenses will put more work load on her, I don't see that going well.
ETA: That was typed before your last reply... Yeah, too far. Don't go to a restaurant and refuse to eat, make her the home cooked meal instead. The rest, just, damn.
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need some second opinions:
Well, you got them.
Too far?
I am not sure it is "too far" so much as you need to rethink your entire strategy of dealing with your relationship with your wife. Like, all of it. This is not a question of degree.
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Thanks all. I also have some potentially passive-aggressive semi-ethical strategies and need some second opinions:
Let's just stop here.
Don't be a jerk. Keep saving the way your are. Take a breathe and 2 giant steps back. As others mentioned, just because finding this site clicked with you immediately does not mean that it does with your wife. Smart people have already suggested actually listening to her, to give her some time & space. So instead of creating an even bigger divide in your marriage, slow your roll....purposely bringing these 'actually' passive-aggressive and basically crappy behaviors into an already strained marriage is a really bad choice.
And to answer your question at the end of the post................yes...........too far
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Thanks all. I also have some potentially passive-aggressive semi-ethical strategies and need some second opinions:
1) HUNGER STRIKE: When we go to a restaurant, occasionally don't order anything. Explain that I'd rather the money to go savings. Lead by example and learn self control simultaneously.
2) BRIBERY: When the wife is about to buy something, offer "If you don't buy that trinket, I'll give you a 20 minute back massage tonight." And that's how you work for your spouse at $100/hour. The risk is that more trinkets are considered in exchange for more back rubs.
3) COMPETITIVE EXTORTION & SHAMING: Separate my and her credit card accounts. Pay for household necessities only from a third account. Watch who spends more on themselves.
4) CUT LOOSE: Un-merge our finances. Contribute half and half to a shared household expense account. If we as a couple need $1.5M to retire, either of us can retire as soon as we individually have saved $750k. The risk being that the deal might not be upheld after the first one hits their number.
Too far?
These tactics will lead to divorce and you already said you didn't want that. You need to chill out, seriously. Choose one item, maybe restaurant meals to attack. Make a bunch of freezer meals and try to set a restaurant meal budget that she can live with.
One idea for you on the restaurant meal front since you seem kind of hardcore and it sounds like your wife likes restaurants. My teen loves restaurants, but our budget is for 1 per month. To keep her happy, I do mystery shops, 1-3 a week, a mix of fast food, take out and restaurants. And once I found the really high end ones, the husband was happy to tag along. This year he and I have had date nights at Ruth Chris twice, Fleming's once, The Capital Grille twice and Bahama Breeze twice along with a couple other local/regional places, our total out of pocket is maybe $20-$30 total this year for a once a month date night at a nice restaurant. After four years, they both will help with names and timings and will take pictures for those rare ones that want pictures of the food. I'm the weirdo that actually doesn't mind doing the reports, so for me it's a money making hobby. This year I've made about $600 in fees just for restaurants and had about $3,200 in restaurant meals reimbursed. And I haven't paid for an oil change or car wash for my car in three years.
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Thanks for saving me from making these statements to the wife! When everyone says you're being jerky, it's probably true.
Yet I am somewhat disheartened that no one thinks a savings rate around 48% can be improved upon. If I fail to solve this problem, at an early time when little changes make a bigger difference in your FIRE date, it will be another 2-4 years in the beige cube for me.
The essence of the problem is this:
I've cut every expense I can without the full cooperation of my spouse.
My rather rude remaining options are my point of desperation. Are we saying this is unsolvable?
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I'm seeing every restaurant meal as a setback, and the reason I can't have my life back from work. Shit. 10 more years? Then I do the typical human thing and look for a scapegoat: I have to live with two more years of work because my spouse thinks Etsy crap is cute?
I really appreciate this thread Cheap, I was chuckling about it earlier today because I've been dealing with similar hurdles and then when I went to lunch I got a text about ordering take out tonight because the wife is too tired to cook. (This is legitimate we just got married and moved across the country for work so she's at home all day with 2 kids cleaning and unpacking an entire house and hurt her back moving furniture upstairs alone instead of waiting for me). My answer, I'll cook tonight no big deal, time to make some homemade pizza dough and then the kids have a blast decorating their own pizza's while the wife relaxes from doing house work all week. Money saved, wife happy and eating what she wanted to order for dinner, kiddos pacified and we all WIN!
As far as Etsy goes, good luck there. Baby steps.
This is really smart. My husband and I are both frugal, but in slightly different ways. We each have to talk each other into things. I'm fairly anti-eating out and anti-cable. But TV was a big thing for him and he wasn't willing to get rid of it. Until a few years later, he was (right when I was about to start mat leave, what??? But we did it anyway.)
On eating out, we had years (pre-kid) of eating out 2x a week and a lot of lunches. We cut back (bad for your waistline to eat out that much too), but he was still eating lunch out every Friday. The *only* way I could reduce that was to pack him a lunch, or at least make sure that something really delicious was available for lunch. He cut down to once a month. So now, I'm happy, and he's happy. He's on the introverted side so eating lunch out once a month with a friend is very important to him. Of course now his good buddy isn't as available and hubby teaches math on Fridays at lunch.
The kids love to eat out too (well, the big one anyway). So generally I don't worry too much if he takes the boys to Chik-fil-A occasionally. Makes them happy and I hate that place. I do see an occasional trend of taking them out a few times in one week if it's a holiday week. And I'll squawk about that. You know, smoothies 2 days in a row followed by dinner out on the third day. That's fifty bucks.
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Thanks all. I also have some potentially passive-aggressive semi-ethical strategies and need some second opinions:
1) HUNGER STRIKE: When we go to a restaurant, occasionally don't order anything. Explain that I'd rather the money to go savings. Lead by example and learn self control simultaneously.
2) BRIBERY: When the wife is about to buy something, offer "If you don't buy that trinket, I'll give you a 20 minute back massage tonight." And that's how you work for your spouse at $100/hour. The risk is that more trinkets are considered in exchange for more back rubs.
3) COMPETITIVE EXTORTION & SHAMING: Separate my and her credit card accounts. Pay for household necessities only from a third account. Watch who spends more on themselves.
4) CUT LOOSE: Un-merge our finances. Contribute half and half to a shared household expense account. If we as a couple need $1.5M to retire, either of us can retire as soon as we individually have saved $750k. The risk being that the deal might not be upheld after the first one hits their number.
Too far?
These tactics will lead to divorce and you already said you didn't want that. You need to chill out, seriously. Choose one item, maybe restaurant meals to attack. Make a bunch of freezer meals and try to set a restaurant meal budget that she can live with.
One idea for you on the restaurant meal front since you seem kind of hardcore and it sounds like your wife likes restaurants. My teen loves restaurants, but our budget is for 1 per month. To keep her happy, I do mystery shops, 1-3 a week, a mix of fast food, take out and restaurants. And once I found the really high end ones, the husband was happy to tag along. This year he and I have had date nights at Ruth Chris twice, Fleming's once, The Capital Grille twice and Bahama Breeze twice along with a couple other local/regional places, our total out of pocket is maybe $20-$30 for a once a month date night at a nice restaurant. After four years, they both will help with names and timings and will take pictures for those rare ones that want pictures of the food. I'm the weirdo that actually doesn't mind doing the reports, so for me it's a money making hobby. This year I've made about $600 in fees just for restaurants and had about $3,200 in restaurant meals reimbursed. And I haven't paid for an oil change or car wash for my car in three years.
How do you get the good mystery shopper gigs, if you don't mind sharing? That sounds like a good way to get restaurant meals cheaply!
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Thanks all. I also have some potentially passive-aggressive semi-ethical strategies and need some second opinions:
1) HUNGER STRIKE: When we go to a restaurant, occasionally don't order anything. Explain that I'd rather the money to go savings. Lead by example and learn self control simultaneously.
2) BRIBERY: When the wife is about to buy something, offer "If you don't buy that trinket, I'll give you a 20 minute back massage tonight." And that's how you work for your spouse at $100/hour. The risk is that more trinkets are considered in exchange for more back rubs.
3) COMPETITIVE EXTORTION & SHAMING: Separate my and her credit card accounts. Pay for household necessities only from a third account. Watch who spends more on themselves.
4) CUT LOOSE: Un-merge our finances. Contribute half and half to a shared household expense account. If we as a couple need $1.5M to retire, either of us can retire as soon as we individually have saved $750k. The risk being that the deal might not be upheld after the first one hits their number.
Too far?
Yes. Too far.
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I don't know, I think #2 could be effective, depending on how you frame it or what drives her shopping. Does she stress shop or impulse shop? I tend to make stupid purchases when I am stressed at work. Maybe suggest that the next time she is thinking of making an impulse buy, she emails you and promises to hold off until the evening, when you will give her a massage. If, after the massage, she is still wanting to buy X, fine. But maybe the waiting period will help her to reconsider, and the massage shows you are willing to put in some effort for her. Actually, I may have to propose this idea to my husband...
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My rather rude remaining options are my point of desperation. Are we saying this is unsolvable?
No, but I think people are saying 1) don't be dick, 2) it is okay to compromise in relationships, and 3) don't be a dick.
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Thanks all. I also have some potentially passive-aggressive semi-ethical strategies and need some second opinions:
1) HUNGER STRIKE: When we go to a restaurant, occasionally don't order anything. Explain that I'd rather the money to go savings. Lead by example and learn self control simultaneously.
2) BRIBERY: When the wife is about to buy something, offer "If you don't buy that trinket, I'll give you a 20 minute back massage tonight." And that's how you work for your spouse at $100/hour. The risk is that more trinkets are considered in exchange for more back rubs.
3) COMPETITIVE EXTORTION & SHAMING: Separate my and her credit card accounts. Pay for household necessities only from a third account. Watch who spends more on themselves.
4) CUT LOOSE: Un-merge our finances. Contribute half and half to a shared household expense account. If we as a couple need $1.5M to retire, either of us can retire as soon as we individually have saved $750k. The risk being that the deal might not be upheld after the first one hits their number.
Too far?
Dude, you need to see a psychiatrist ASAP.
You JUST got done saying the following...
Thanks for slapping me around a little bit, everyone. <--Honestly! The consensus has been received.
Yet, instead of taking everyone's advice to chill the f*ck out, you come back with these crazy marriage-ending ideas.
On top this, you state that your marriage has non-financial issues you are working on.
You're going to find yourself divorced and/or miserable if you don't get some help.
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Be nice, r1. Dude asked for help, he's getting it, there's no need to double down on him.
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Thanks all. I also have some potentially passive-aggressive semi-ethical strategies and need some second opinions:
1) HUNGER STRIKE: When we go to a restaurant, occasionally don't order anything. Explain that I'd rather the money to go savings. Lead by example and learn self control simultaneously.
This is a terrible idea. Really terrible. I am not a big restaurant-goer, but your wife is going to think "Is he really going to ruin a nice evening out?" Going to a restaurant is a little date, and you are already having marital issues. Why would you make this more difficult?
Order a less expensive entree for yourself, but don't just fail to eat.
2) BRIBERY: When the wife is about to buy something, offer "If you don't buy that trinket, I'll give you a 20 minute back massage tonight." And that's how you work for your spouse at $100/hour. The risk is that more trinkets are considered in exchange for more back rubs.
Nope nope nope. Do not treat your wife like a child. Don't bargain. Give affection freely.
3) COMPETITIVE EXTORTION & SHAMING: Separate my and her credit card accounts. Pay for household necessities only from a third account. Watch who spends more on themselves.
How are you going to explain this one to her? Do you really want to make a big point of "I'm right and you're wrong!"? Why would you try to make this a competition with your wife whom you love? This doesn't sound like a fun competition, and "SHAMING" your spouse makes you sound like a scumbag.
4) CUT LOOSE: Un-merge our finances. Contribute half and half to a shared household expense account. If we as a couple need $1.5M to retire, either of us can retire as soon as we individually have saved $750k. The risk being that the deal might not be upheld after the first one hits their number.
To tell your wife that you are going to separate your finances after them being merged for so long screams "I am getting ready for a divorce. I am financially untangling myself from you, as we are already drawing apart emotionally. I have probably already found a lawyer and possibly a woman on the side."
DO NOT DO THIS.
Too far?
Yes, every single thing you've suggested is too far. You need to slow down and think about what is causing strain in your marriage. Be more giving and less transactional. Work on YOU cooking more and YOU doing things to make your home life easier so that there is less of an impetus to go to restaurants. Don't do nice things for your wife but then turn around and say "You owe me one!"
Your savings rate is good. Yes, numerically it could be improved, but let this rest for a year. Stop talking about retirement until your wife brings it up. When you give up all your hobbies and only talk about FIRE and how you need to save more for FIRE and how you will FIRE in exactly 10 years if you cut out all the pleasant things for which your wife has worked for years and how your FIRE plans will be affected by the stock market's performance this month and what that MMM guy has to say about FIRE and what a fool your wife is for not understanding this really easy math that shows FIRE can be here in a decade...you become a very boring, unpleasant person. And, worse, you become a person who is less and less like the person your wife married.
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here's a reasonable way to save money on dining out. Eat a relatively filling snack before hand, and at the restaurant, order a salad or appetizer or other small plate as your meal. If wife inquires about choice just explain you aren't that hungry, but you want a little something so you can enjoy some food with her. Enjoy your meal and the family time or date. No passive aggressiveness necessary! I do this all the time when friends or coworkers want to dine out and I'm trying to keep expenses down.
btw, kudos to OP for taking all the advice pretty well so far, IMO.
My advice is to talk about being able to spend money on the things you value without worry. I think that is really what FIRE is about for me. More about that than just retiring early. I've always been pretty frugal, but once you get into it, you start to realize that there are some things that you spend money on that don't really add value to your life. For instance, if she likes buying cute things on etsy, what are they? Clothes? Accessories? If she has a closet full of clothes and feels she has nothing to wear, something like building a capsule wardrobe and learning to simplify could be a money saving move, but the purpose is less to save money and more to find your style and simplify your life. I'm pretty sure most moms of toddlers wouldn't mind simplifying their lives and feeling stylish. Cutting out cable? Maybe it's more about finding more interactive ways to spend quality time with your spouse instead of vegging out in front of the TV. Anyway, just an example. This way you aren't a cheap bastard, just a believer in life and improvement. That kind of thing.
If you go this route, I'd first let the remains of your hard push for FI fizzle out. I really think these things make for a better life. Truly. And I think if you keep at it on your end, but make it about focusing on what really brings value to your life, she'll see the positive changes. She may not announce, "you're right, we gotta get to FI asap!" But she may start changing her behaviors in ways that will support FI.
sorry if this is a repeat suggestion... there are lots of replies, I only skimmed many of them.
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I think it's important for you to realize that your quest for FI has already landed you in counseling. Now, you were hoping that your counselor would convince your wife that your FI plans are solid. Your wife probably went into counselling hoping the counselor would convince you to stop badgering her about expenses.
Your reaction to the failure of the counseling to go your way is to seek out new and improved ways to badger your wife about expenses.
This was a clear failure for both of you.
You both felt strongly enough to go to marriage counseling, but the problems that you led you there are on the verge of getting worse.
It's not that we on the MMM forum think it's unreasonable for you to want to cut your grocery bill. It's that your wife has already compromised on a large number of things to help you save money, and you've compromised on nothing. Take a break from nagging her for a few months. Then, when things have settled down, ask her if she thinks there are any areas of the budget that she thinks your family can work on. If she has no ideas, try to prod her with something like, "Last year, we spent $6,000 on restaurants. I feel like I want to eat out less. What do you think our target budget for restaurant eating should be? How can we address our restaurant triggers?" (Do not say, "Eating at restaurants is a waste! I wouldn't even do it all if it were up to me! Our restaurant budget should be $0! This is ridiculous!") If you feel that your restaurant budget should be $0 and she says she might be willing to cut out $500, then start with $500. When you're successful with that, ask her if she thinks you can go farther. If she says no, look for another area of the budget to tackle.
But keep in mind, this is a conversation for later. Several months from now, maybe. Spend your counseling time improving on the other areas of your marriage that might need improvement and then revisit the financial issue at a later date. Think carefully about how much you try to force on her at once and how you're presenting it.
Remember that constant badgering puts people on the defensive. She is learning to say "no" by instinct, because "yes" has won her nothing.
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I'm new here so can't speak as well to the financial side of retiring early, but I do have a question. WHY do you WANT to retire early? As in, what are your plans and hopes and dreams for the following 35-50 etc years?
To me your passion for accumulating a giant pile of money is very clear.
You've said absolutely nothing that indicates you have any passion for doing anything with your partner besides disrespect and ridicule her into suddenly wanting to also accumulate a giant pile of money for no apparent reason other than to stop working.
I get that you're primarily venting here so your words are perhaps not as balanced as you actually think and feel about your marriage and long-term goals within your relationship. My reaction to your blatant disrespect aside, I do think that you should not just stop "pushing" FIRE on your partner, but stop pushing it on yourself and really take a step back and look at it from an entirely different angle than the financial one.
If you, as a family, had $5 million in the bank right now, what would you do TOGETHER? What are your shared dreams? What are the things you're excited about doing together when you're old and wrinkly and finish each other's stories all the time?
My worry is that you're using this newfound excitement for the potential of FIRE as a replacement for shared goals. I truly think you should completely dismiss the idea of FIRE for a month or two and instead put that same enthusiasm into finding frugal activities and hobbies the two of you can enjoy together -- NOT to save you more money, but to start rebuilding mutual interests and mutual respect for one another.
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It could take years to convince the SO. Do the best you can and accept that.
There may be a time when you can just state, "I'm going FIRE. Do it with me or continue working," and she'll accept it. You're not there yet.
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Yes....way too far. My wife would shank me if I tried to pull any of those stunts, and who actuall tries to be passive aggressive?
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Thanks all. I also have some potentially passive-aggressive semi-ethical strategies and need some second opinions:
1) HUNGER STRIKE: When we go to a restaurant, occasionally don't order anything. Explain that I'd rather the money to go savings. Lead by example and learn self control simultaneously.
2) BRIBERY: When the wife is about to buy something, offer "If you don't buy that trinket, I'll give you a 20 minute back massage tonight." And that's how you work for your spouse at $100/hour. The risk is that more trinkets are considered in exchange for more back rubs.
3) COMPETITIVE EXTORTION & SHAMING: Separate my and her credit card accounts. Pay for household necessities only from a third account. Watch who spends more on themselves.
4) CUT LOOSE: Un-merge our finances. Contribute half and half to a shared household expense account. If we as a couple need $1.5M to retire, either of us can retire as soon as we individually have saved $750k. The risk being that the deal might not be upheld after the first one hits their number.
Too far?
Oy, slow down, pace yourself. Getting to fire is a marathon, not a sprint. You won't reach the finish line by goading your teammates into throttling you, you'll just get everyone DQ'd.
Try resetting your POV. Look at things not just from what you want to achieve, or what would make you happy, but rather what your family wants to achieve and what makes your family happy.
So first you need to find out what the rest of your family values. Talk to your wife, ask her, and LISTEN. Think about what she says for while (maybe days), see where your values overlap and mesh. Some of her ideas may be new to you, but might be ones you'd like to adopt, too. (One of the things I like best about marriage - our different mindsets and skills are a plus, I learn new things from DH and the kids, and vice versa).
Now realize that you are living in the current day, not holding your breath until you reach FIRE. Yes, you save to reach your goals, but you also arrange things to live a happy and pleasant life right now, too. Doing thoughtful, loving things for each other feels much more happy and pleasant than passive-aggressive, semi-ethical shaming extortion and bribery (your words, think about what your choice of words says).
Stop talking about saving and money and FIRE for while. She's heard you. Now show her that it is not about deprivation (a negative) but about deliberately choosing to do and spend on those things that have meaning for your family (a positive). Make your life together happy, not combative.
And yes, some of the best things in life are free. Like backrubs. Just do it, no bribing.
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You need to take into consideration her feelings...and not just to manipulate her.
Pretty things are fun, they provide a little relief, they beautify your home, They are a tough thing to give up sometimes.
People sometimes shop out of boredom. So help her be less bored -- by doing free or fun things with her.
People sometimes feel unappreciated...particularly unappreciated by a spouse...and the spending is a pick me up. Perhaps show some appreciation?
People sometimes want to feel special and carefree --so they go out to eat. Find ways to help her relax and feel carefree on a regular basis so she won't feel a need so often to go out.
People want to feel like they compare to others...so they will look or behave a certain way. Perhaps you need to work on showing her that she is number one in your eyes always.
This is not a barter situation -- its a "I will do these things consistently, and maybe they will help the spending, but either way they will help our marriage and my attitude" situation. All of these are free or cheap to do. All will help your marriage situation. All *could* help the spending and *may* make her more open to FIRE at some point...but may not.
Also, dream dreams with her...don't force FIRE down her throat if she has no idea what those years would look like or if they would even be fun. If you two aren't having fun now...you won't have fun later....
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Thanks all. I also have some potentially passive-aggressive semi-ethical strategies and need some second opinions:
1) HUNGER STRIKE: When we go to a restaurant, occasionally don't order anything. Explain that I'd rather the money to go savings. Lead by example and learn self control simultaneously.
2) BRIBERY: When the wife is about to buy something, offer "If you don't buy that trinket, I'll give you a 20 minute back massage tonight." And that's how you work for your spouse at $100/hour. The risk is that more trinkets are considered in exchange for more back rubs.
3) COMPETITIVE EXTORTION & SHAMING: Separate my and her credit card accounts. Pay for household necessities only from a third account. Watch who spends more on themselves.
4) CUT LOOSE: Un-merge our finances. Contribute half and half to a shared household expense account. If we as a couple need $1.5M to retire, either of us can retire as soon as we individually have saved $750k. The risk being that the deal might not be upheld after the first one hits their number.
Too far?
These are hilarious! I think it really depends on your relationship.
Hunger-striking sounds really embarrassing for her. What about restaurant-striking instead, and just not going in the first place?
Bribery could be a slippery slope. I bribed my boyfriend to write a speech for me (with pumpkin tarts) a few days ago, but it's probably not something to do too often if you want a healthy relationship.
A lot of couples with different spending habits do find separating their finances makes them a lot happier and less stressed out, so it's something to at least talk about. Then if she wants to buy crap and eat out, she can do so without you having to pay for it. Heck, I've always had separate finances even with a partner with the SAME spending habits, out of personal preference.
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Just read through this thread and I'll just say that if you truly value your marriage (i.e. you would do anything for your wife because being with her brings more happiness than you can imagine being without her), you definitely need to chill in general. At your savings rate, fixating on the "years" lost because she won't move even more extremely (by 99% of the populations view) is self-destructive. There is more to life than optimized FIRE date.
I say this as someone who tried to convince my SO at the time I discovered MMM to change drastically, with disastrous results. Unlike with your situation, my ex-wife wasn't on board with a 10% savings rate, much less 50%! I have no idea what your relationship is like, but I will say that in my case, we had fundamentally different values and divorce was the inevitable outcome. I also felt feelings similar to what you have expressed, although the details seem to indicate that my ex was far less mustachian than your wife. In your case, your SO seems uncommonly mustachian by default. If savings rate is truly your only point of contention, 100% get over it. If not, you may have deeper issues than any of us can address here.
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Thanks all. I also have some potentially passive-aggressive semi-ethical strategies and need some second opinions:
1) HUNGER STRIKE: When we go to a restaurant, occasionally don't order anything. Explain that I'd rather the money to go savings. Lead by example and learn self control simultaneously.
2) BRIBERY: When the wife is about to buy something, offer "If you don't buy that trinket, I'll give you a 20 minute back massage tonight." And that's how you work for your spouse at $100/hour. The risk is that more trinkets are considered in exchange for more back rubs.
3) COMPETITIVE EXTORTION & SHAMING: Separate my and her credit card accounts. Pay for household necessities only from a third account. Watch who spends more on themselves.
4) CUT LOOSE: Un-merge our finances. Contribute half and half to a shared household expense account. If we as a couple need $1.5M to retire, either of us can retire as soon as we individually have saved $750k. The risk being that the deal might not be upheld after the first one hits their number.
Too far?
Way too far. Unless you want a divorce.
Do not do that restaurant thing. Humiliating the wife like this will end you in the doghouse.competitive extortion and shaming? Wtf.plus it will make you look like an idiot.
Your attitude is childish, agressive and immature. Work on it.
By the way, u trolling? Are you real?
Your wife is a saint.
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Its the classic case of convincing. Your math is graduate thesis, but try to convince your wife and your still in kindergarten. What does the 4% rule matter when your wife hands you a report card that says "DOES NOT PLAY WELL WITH OTHERS".
The challenge is to get your wife on your side, to do that you must be patient, and why not be patient? You have years to get this right!
First rule - no diarrhea: particularly the diarrhea coming out your mouth about your wife's lifestyle. Any complaints you give her will have her cleaning all the shit you spilled instead of getting on board.
Second rule - Have sex: not only is it low cost with the proper birth control, but you also have to put in the correct amount of effort. All you have to do is buy some nice ingredients that are not too expensive, but not boring and cheap either, and make a nice meal together instead of going out to eat. Of course there are more ways to have fun for less money, and the main point is that you MUST replace the restaurants with something equally or greater fun. Simply taking the fun away is for communists and 6-year-olds.
Third rule - make it her idea: I'm sure your wife has done things that are frugal. Take even the small things, such as getting some clothing off the clearance rack, and praise her. Talk about how she saved more than you could, and say it in an HONEST MANNER.
Let us know if you get off you childish diarrhea act - it was a beautiful thing when my wife got on board with mustachianism, and she wasn't on board at first.
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Thanks all. I also have some potentially passive-aggressive semi-ethical strategies and need some second opinions:
1) HUNGER STRIKE: When we go to a restaurant, occasionally don't order anything. Explain that I'd rather the money to go savings. Lead by example and learn self control simultaneously.
2) BRIBERY: When the wife is about to buy something, offer "If you don't buy that trinket, I'll give you a 20 minute back massage tonight." And that's how you work for your spouse at $100/hour. The risk is that more trinkets are considered in exchange for more back rubs.
3) COMPETITIVE EXTORTION & SHAMING: Separate my and her credit card accounts. Pay for household necessities only from a third account. Watch who spends more on themselves.
4) CUT LOOSE: Un-merge our finances. Contribute half and half to a shared household expense account. If we as a couple need $1.5M to retire, either of us can retire as soon as we individually have saved $750k. The risk being that the deal might not be upheld after the first one hits their number.
Too far?
These tactics will lead to divorce and you already said you didn't want that. You need to chill out, seriously. Choose one item, maybe restaurant meals to attack. Make a bunch of freezer meals and try to set a restaurant meal budget that she can live with.
One idea for you on the restaurant meal front since you seem kind of hardcore and it sounds like your wife likes restaurants. My teen loves restaurants, but our budget is for 1 per month. To keep her happy, I do mystery shops, 1-3 a week, a mix of fast food, take out and restaurants. And once I found the really high end ones, the husband was happy to tag along. This year he and I have had date nights at Ruth Chris twice, Fleming's once, The Capital Grille twice and Bahama Breeze twice along with a couple other local/regional places, our total out of pocket is maybe $20-$30 for a once a month date night at a nice restaurant. After four years, they both will help with names and timings and will take pictures for those rare ones that want pictures of the food. I'm the weirdo that actually doesn't mind doing the reports, so for me it's a money making hobby. This year I've made about $600 in fees just for restaurants and had about $3,200 in restaurant meals reimbursed. And I haven't paid for an oil change or car wash for my car in three years.
How do you get the good mystery shopper gigs, if you don't mind sharing? That sounds like a good way to get restaurant meals cheaply!
You have to start small. I started with gas stations ($9 fee, $5 in gas, 5 minute report), Texas Roadhouse ($35 reimbursement, no fee) and Five Guys (fee plus reimbursement for one meal). You do not want to have a $220 meal at Ruth Chris be your first and the shopping companies won't let you anyway. A lot of people give up because everyone is slow with reports to start and they don't get the good jobs being new or they don't live in an area with good jobs. I'm also very anal retentive, keeping track of names and timings is easy for me.
This year alone besides oil changes and a monthly car wash, I've also gone to the movies with my teen a couple times, gone to the zoo, a painting class place, museums and had dry cleaning paid for. She got to shop using my credit card at Bloomingdale's online to test how quickly the rewards come through using a card I was paid $500 to open (not including the rewards for opening the card) and take screenshots of the experience. Lots of grocery stores, my fave is the $40 to spend on the online portal and give an evaluation of how the pick up experience was. I don't do retail shops as I hate malls, but I'll still pick up Aveda's as $20 to spend and a 5 minute report is worth it to me. And sometimes the retail shops can be good, Pandora doesn't do shops any more but when they did, I managed to get an entire bracelet created for my teen for free and I would never pay for their overpriced bs on my own. I get emails for resort and hotel shops, but haven't done those and I know of people that travel over seas or do cruise shops. I just got an email for a $600 payment to talk with Fidelity or Vanguard about my accounts, since I have several questions anyway that I haven't gotten to, it makes sense to take it. Can you tell I like it??
BUT, you have to start small and you have to not mind writing reports. Most people don't think it is worth it. Some people do it full time, I do it to supplement my budget and to me it's a fun hobby. AND, you have to remember that you need to pay taxes on the fees you get paid, even if it is only $5. Look at http://www.mysteryshopforum.com/ and PM me if you want. I can give you a list of companies to sign up for, but can't tell you who has what as I signed confidentiality agreements.
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Is this unsolvable? YES.
Is it your wife's fault? NO!
You asked for advice. We gave you advice like figuring out what motivates your wife, what would make her happy, and how you two can grow together. You came back with ways to trick and manipulate your wife.
If you ever decide you want to do something that makes your wife happy, instead of only getting your own way and throwing tantrums and being passive-aggressive, you'll start to solve some problems.
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Which path would you take? I wonder how hard I can pull before the strong breaks?
ChpBstd, 18 years ago I sat in the cold and the dark and I thought "This is stupid". Mother nature and dropped 2.5 inches of freezing rain on our heads, and all of the power lines were down. Some areas did not get power back for 2 weeks: ours came on after 3 days.
The results were that I became a prepper, and my husband did not. Not then, anyways. Well it is a myth that married people need to agree on all of the important things, though some disagreements take more work than others. I agreed to stay on a budget, and he agreed that since I was running the house that I could do what I thought was important, as long as I stayed within a budget.
So I have money and he has money, and he does what he wishes with his "allowance" and I prep with mine, and NEITHER of us can criticize what the other does with their money. I highly recommend this approach: your wife earns half of the money if she works, she makes it possible for you to earn more and spend less if she doe not work outside the home, AND SHE SHOULD HAVE HALF THE SAY AS TO HOW IT IS SPENT!
I recommend that you give your wife a separate checking account, no questions asked as to what she does with it. She works hard, and she does not have to agree with you on everything. If possible, ^YOU^ take over the household bank account.
You are also going to start cooking more, using frugal recipes. Such as using loss leader meats to make inexpensive meals. I did this to save "prepping" money. Basically, most stores will mark down some meat to below what they paid for it, to encourage people to shop at their stores. So, if hamburger is on sale for $3.50 a pound, you use it for spaghetti with some Ragu you ALSO bought on sale. That should get you a dinner for $6 for the entire meal. And your wife will be good with it because you are going to say "I want to cook spaghetti tonight". It is hard to argue with "I want to do work".
I have a small pantry with 99 cent cake mixes, $1.50 jars of Ragu, and other things so that I can cook for very little. And, while your wife might not want loss-leader meats, you can buy them yourself as you are buying for when you cook. And, it will save money if you cook often.
Part of your income is due to your wife's efforts. If I were you, I would compromise on this one. Budget in her spending money, and if she wants to spend it on 3 different black purses that would be her own business. My own husband bought a seldom used telescope, a seldom used case of photography equipment, etc. That is not my business. He bought that and I bought what I thought was important.
I am also the one who puts money in the savings account. I no longer budget money for prepping, as the prepping now pays for itself and also turns a profit for the household. The pantry saves me quite a bit, and it is a small pantry. It fits in one closet with room to spare for the slow cooker and such (there are also many inexpensive slow cooker recipes)
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My rather rude remaining options are my point of desperation. Are we saying this is unsolvable?
No. there are ways of saving money you have not used, yet.
If you do not choose to save more, as it WILL kick up the amount of work that you do, would it be so terrible to hit your goals 2 years later?
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How often do you do the grocery shopping and cooking?
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Also, OP, if you're looking for more low-hanging fruit that could be easily cut, feel free to post the breakdown of your remaining spending - at 57K, there's probably a lot more you could do.
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agree with others suggestions about cutting back on eating out by doing some cooking yourself. You don't mentiion if you do the cooking and shopping or not. If your wife wants a night off from cooking and dishes, maybe you can agree to split up he meal planning. Cutting back on food bill will do more for budget than earning another $10k that you will be taxed on. if you don't already do it, splitting the housework will go a long way too. If you decide to separate finances, you don't want her to start charging you for all of the things that she contributes to the household upkeep.
As for etsy, try to find out is she shops to allay boredom or feels that she wants to decorate the house. Getting out of the house on weekends or going for walks in the evening might be a good way to stay away from the temptation. Stopping the shopping email spam is a good way to reduce browsing.
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OK, resolved.
I'll "chill" and keep working behind the scenes as the bill payer, financial planner, grocery shopper, half-the-time cook, etc. to maintain our almost 50% savings rate for as long as I can.
The lifestyle keeps trying to inflate though, and without a spouse who is philosophically on board, it's harder to hold back.
I know that with the success we've had so far, my frustration seems petty and unreasonable to those struggling to reach even our level. But consider this: the difference between the status quo (~48% SR) and what I want (70% SR) is the difference between a starter mustachian wanting to save just 20% and their spouse who refuses to save anything. Which 20% is unreasonable? Where is the line of reasonableness?
Eating out 2X a week and shopping at Whole Foods is monetarily the same as your spouse buying a $100k yacht on your would-be FIRE date for cash and sinking it in the lake uninsured. Dollars don't care about our good or bad intentions or our excuses for not saving them, they just go where we let them. Yes, we deserve credit for what we have saved, but the numbers don't care at all.
It does translate to years of work though, and I worry my frustration now might seem mild compared to the final three years of my career, when I will know I'm there for the sake of a bunch of merchandise which by then will be buried in a landfill and a bunch of crappy restaurant meals that long ago became river water.
I was not always the person who wanted a 70% savings rate, but my wife has always been more frugal than average - steady as a rock. She's a treasure for possibly enabling us to retire before 50, even if we won't retire in our 40s. I do appreciate her, despite my inflammatory language online, which is FOR FUN. LAUGH DAMMIT!
I've always been that guy who starts a 5k running as hard as he can and finishes walking. So I'll give it a while, consolidate our pace for a year or so, and try some of the slow-road-to-persuasion methods mentioned in other posts.
Give up though? Not in the long run.
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It sounds like you and your wife complement each other. Basically, that means you have very different skills, and when you work together you can do anything.
That does not mean it is easy to work together, of course!
Another inexpensive meals from my pantry: tuna noodle cassarole. 2 cans of tuna from Aldi's (60 cents each) 2 cans of cream of mushroom soup (60 cents each at Aldi's), and a pound of noodles $1 at Aldi's. Stir in frozen peas.
Do you have an Aldi's in your area?
Top with 2 handfuls of grated cheese before you put it in the oven, and while it cooks pick up the mess you just made and wipe the counter. This will give you and your family a pleasant meal in a tidy kitchen.
When I was raising kids I loved to eat out because I waited on everybody else's needs, and it was wonderful to sit in a clean place and have other people wait on mine. If your wife is like I was, it might decrease her desire to eat out if se can do the same thing at home. Not eliminate the desire to eat out, no, but she might desire it less.
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As someone upthread said, it's a marathon, not a race. While it's great to save money, you also have to balance it with life. If eating out, spending more on groceries and buying things for the home is the worst thing you have to complain about, I'd consider yourself lucky. There's been many times on this board that I seen people dive head-first into 'save at all costs!', only to be extremely miserable and question whether it was worth it or not. Many times the answer was no.
You also have a kid. Young now, but the time will come soon enough that they will want to do things, perhaps expensive things. You'll need to budget for those things too.
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I know plenty of couples [myself included] who have separate finances. If you guys are not on the same page about money and FIRE maybe you can look at splitting your $$ at some point along the way and then getting to do what you want with your money. If she wants to spend it and you want to buy ETFs great. That'll let you stop working sooner if it matters to you and she won't feel the pressure to follow your FIRE plan.
Obviously some joint decisions will result in you spending $$ you would have saved and invested, but that's being in a relationship. I am happy on my 20yr old futon mattress I brought to the relationship. My GF wants to buy something fancy. I told her more than a year ago to find what she wants and give me 2 or 3 options I can lay down on and I'll pay 50% even if it's some stupid $2K+ mattress. I don't want to do it, but being able to sleep comfortably is too important to sacrifice for some savings. Ever since I told her that she has stopped complaining and has to this point not bought a new mattress. I think knowing that she can have a new one anytime makes using the old one okay for her. She mentioned wanting a new duvet last week. I think the one we have is fine. I told her the same thing. Buy whatever you want I'll pay half.
Based on our work and financial situations I'll downshift to part-time work 9 years before she retires and be FIRE'd probably 4 or 5 years before she retires. I'm not working an extra 5yrs just to keep her company at the coal mine. Maybe that makes me a bad partner, but to me that would be STUPID. I will adjust my plans in my free time to accommodate her working as much as possible to compromise, but if like Sol mentioned earlier she insisted I work full-time until I was 65 just because despite having more than enough money to retire with I'd end the relationship. Work is a means to an end if the end is pointless I can't get behind it and suffer for nothing.
Anyway I just wanted to point out there are other ways to setup your finances so that each of has the ability to express their preferences to a greater degree if that matters to you.
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Thanks all. I also have some potentially passive-aggressive semi-ethical strategies and need some second opinions:
1) HUNGER STRIKE: When we go to a restaurant, occasionally don't order anything. Explain that I'd rather the money to go savings. Lead by example and learn self control simultaneously.
2) BRIBERY: When the wife is about to buy something, offer "If you don't buy that trinket, I'll give you a 20 minute back massage tonight." And that's how you work for your spouse at $100/hour. The risk is that more trinkets are considered in exchange for more back rubs.
3) COMPETITIVE EXTORTION & SHAMING: Separate my and her credit card accounts. Pay for household necessities only from a third account. Watch who spends more on themselves.
4) CUT LOOSE: Un-merge our finances. Contribute half and half to a shared household expense account. If we as a couple need $1.5M to retire, either of us can retire as soon as we individually have saved $750k. The risk being that the deal might not be upheld after the first one hits their number.
Too far?
This guy is clearly trolling us.
If these are really your strategies, I hope your wife does divorce you. She would be better off. Who in their right mind would want to FIRE with someone who thinks this way.
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....Eating out 2X a week and shopping at Whole Foods is monetarily the same as your spouse buying a $100k yacht on your would-be FIRE date for cash and sinking it in the lake uninsured. Dollars don't care about our good or bad intentions or our excuses for not saving them, they just go where we let them. .....
I was not always the person who wanted a 70% savings rate, but my wife has always been more frugal than average
I think you need to change your perspective. Instead of thinking of how much "time" your wife is costing you by not immediately acquiescing to all your proposed changes, think of all the time she saved you by being frugal for years.
Think of how far behind you would be if she died, and you didn't have a second income and had to raise your child by yourself. When would you retire then?
It sounds like your wife has put you in a better position than you would be alone, and yet you are fixating on how different life is from an imaginary ideal you created.
Today your house did not burn down. This month your wife earned a paycheck. This year your child was not diagnosed with an expensive, life-long crippling medical condition. (I hope all these are true!). Try to run your mental calculations on some of the ways your life is BETTER than it could have turned out in a different world.
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Oh, god, I don't have time to read all the responses, but, seriously, LAY OFF! You are not reasonable, and if you sound anything like this in real life, you are never going to get buy-in. You cannot push your way into a future that you want. Others have to collaborate, and you cannot make anyone do anything they don't want to do.
Actually, I think that's the main point you seem to be missing. You cannot control the actions of others. It used to be hard-won wisdom, but now it is taught to children. You should know this. Compromise, not because that gets you where you want the fastest (and it does), but because that's the only decent way to treat others.
Also, you've only been a member of the cult for 10 months. In a couple of years, you will feel less passionate and more matter-of-fact about it, and it will take the proper level of importance in your life. Then, you will look back and think "I'm so glad I didn't risk my marriage over a couple of extra years of work."
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I was not always the person who wanted a 70% savings rate, but my wife has always been more frugal than average - steady as a rock. She's a treasure for possibly enabling us to retire before 50, even if we won't retire in our 40s. I do appreciate her, despite my inflammatory language online, which is FOR FUN. LAUGH DAMMIT!
No, because you aren't funny. You sound entirely unhinged. Don't go into writing or comedy. And while I share your values, I'm rooting for your wife to kick you to the curb at this point. She kept you guys on track all these years, BIRTHED YOUR CHILD, has acquiesced to MASSIVE CHANGES over the last 10 months, and now you're whining that the poor woman is reluctant to give up the things she values and the things that bring her joy after her husband went insane?
I know that with the success we've had so far, my frustration seems petty and unreasonable to those struggling to reach even our level. But consider this: the difference between the status quo (~48% SR) and what I want (70% SR) is the difference between a starter mustachian wanting to save just 20% and their spouse who refuses to save anything. Which 20% is unreasonable? Where is the line of reasonableness?
Your frustration is petty and unreasonable. Your 20% is unreasonable. The line of reasonableness is wherever you want it to be, but since you said you didn't want to end up getting divorced, I'm going to go with the line being somewhere in the vicinity of 'my husband went insane and I divorced him when he started completely ignoring me as a human being with thoughts, feelings, and goals of my own and only treated me like a walking paycheck.'
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I remember feeling similar feelings to yours when I first discovered this "lifestyle" and my spouse was not interested at all.
Fast-forward a few years, and while we are not FI, we have enough saved that our retirement at a traditional age will be taken care of, and we are making some big changes. Our kids are 4 & 6, I have returned to work part-time, DH has quit his lucrative but exhausting career, and retrained to do something that he has always been interested in, and that allows him to spend more time at home with his family.
We could have continued to put our nose to the grindstone for a few more years, and then fully FIRED, but at what expense to our marriage and our kids childhoods? When we stepped back and realised that we have already put ourselves in a good position (compared to the general population - not MMMers,) that gave us choices that most people do not have. Congratulate yourselves on how well you have done without "knowing the MMM way," and recognise that you have put yourself in a place where you have choices. Who says you need to work 10 more years in your cube? Maybe it is time to find a new source of income that brings you more happiness, and allows you to spend more time (re)building relationships with your family. Let the dollars you have saved do their thing, take a breath, talk to your wife about how she sees your future together, then get out there and make it happen - together.
Hope that came out clearly enough - I am not much of a writer.
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No, because you aren't funny. You sound entirely unhinged. Don't go into writing or comedy. And while I share your values, I'm rooting for your wife to kick you to the curb at this point. She kept you guys on track all these years, BIRTHED YOUR CHILD, has acquiesced to MASSIVE CHANGES over the last 10 months, and now you're whining that the poor woman is reluctant to give up the things she values and the things that bring her joy after her husband went insane?
Your frustration is petty and unreasonable. Your 20% is unreasonable. The line of reasonableness is wherever you want it to be, but since you said you didn't want to end up getting divorced, I'm going to go with the line being somewhere in the vicinity of 'my husband went insane and I divorced him when he started completely ignoring me as a human being with thoughts, feelings, and goals of my own and only treated me like a walking paycheck.'
x 1,000,000 to the power of googolplex
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The issue here is there is no right or wrong answer - as long as you aren't burying yourself in debt and are planning for a safe retirement at 65 everything you do above that is matter of opinion. Just because you found this site doesn't mean your plan is the only valid one.
It took me a few years to reach this point and the kind of talk and message that is on this site can really spook some people if you come across too strong and don't build up to it slowly.
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Let's look at your creative ideas and see how you'd feel about them if your wife implemented similar strategies to get you to loosen up the purse strings a bit.
Thanks all. I also have some potentially passive-aggressive semi-ethical strategies and need some second opinions:
1) Restaurant Double Down: When you go to a restaurant, occasionally order the most expensive things on the menu, including expensive cocktails and multiple courses. Explain that she'd rather live a bit now than spend every moment worrying about making even more cuts when so many changes have already been implemented. Lead by example, showing you that hyper focus-on finances takes away from life and the health of your relationship.
2) BRIBERY: When the wife wants to buy something and you balk, she offers you back rubs or sex. "If you allow me to spend that money, I'll give you a 20 minute back massage [or whatever] tonight." And that's how you work for your spouse at $100/hour. The risk is that more purchases will be refused in order to exchange them for more "back rubs".
3) COMPETITIVE EXTORTION & SHAMING: Separate my and her household duties and become excessively nitpicky over even the slightest extravagance on your part. Unless you are eating the cheapest beans and rice for every meal, you'll have the expense judged and thrown in your face, for not being willing to make more cuts while asking it of her.
4) CUT LOOSE: Un-merge our finances. And by "un-merge", I mean, "... by decree of the courts...". If each of you is to work toward separate goals with separate finances and separate retirement dates, that sounds not too far from just separate lives, especially when it isn't what both of you want.
Imagine those things happening in your marriage. How would you feel about your wife? Would you feel manipulated, disrespected, and perhaps even as though you were being treated with contempt?
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OK, resolved.
I'll "chill" and keep working behind the scenes as the bill payer, financial planner, grocery shopper, half-the-time cook, etc. to maintain our almost 50% savings rate for as long as I can.
The lifestyle keeps trying to inflate though, and without a spouse who is philosophically on board, it's harder to hold back.
I know that with the success we've had so far, my frustration seems petty and unreasonable to those struggling to reach even our level. But consider this: the difference between the status quo (~48% SR) and what I want (70% SR) is the difference between a starter mustachian wanting to save just 20% and their spouse who refuses to save anything. Which 20% is unreasonable? Where is the line of reasonableness?
Eating out 2X a week and shopping at Whole Foods is monetarily the same as your spouse buying a $100k yacht on your would-be FIRE date for cash and sinking it in the lake uninsured. Dollars don't care about our good or bad intentions or our excuses for not saving them, they just go where we let them. Yes, we deserve credit for what we have saved, but the numbers don't care at all.
It does translate to years of work though, and I worry my frustration now might seem mild compared to the final three years of my career, when I will know I'm there for the sake of a bunch of merchandise which by then will be buried in a landfill and a bunch of crappy restaurant meals that long ago became river water.
I was not always the person who wanted a 70% savings rate, but my wife has always been more frugal than average - steady as a rock. She's a treasure for possibly enabling us to retire before 50, even if we won't retire in our 40s. I do appreciate her, despite my inflammatory language online, which is FOR FUN. LAUGH DAMMIT!
I've always been that guy who starts a 5k running as hard as he can and finishes walking. So I'll give it a while, consolidate our pace for a year or so, and try some of the slow-road-to-persuasion methods mentioned in other posts.
Give up though? Not in the long run.
Good Lord! Is this a humorless bunch, or what? I was laughing all the way. Your humorous passive aggressive suggestions were met with a torrent of misdirected outrage. I feel for you, buddy.
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Thanks all. I also have some potentially passive-aggressive semi-ethical strategies and need some second opinions:
1) HUNGER STRIKE: When we go to a restaurant, occasionally don't order anything. Explain that I'd rather the money to go savings. Lead by example and learn self control simultaneously.
2) BRIBERY: When the wife is about to buy something, offer "If you don't buy that trinket, I'll give you a 20 minute back massage tonight." And that's how you work for your spouse at $100/hour. The risk is that more trinkets are considered in exchange for more back rubs.
3) COMPETITIVE EXTORTION & SHAMING: Separate my and her credit card accounts. Pay for household necessities only from a third account. Watch who spends more on themselves.
4) CUT LOOSE: Un-merge our finances. Contribute half and half to a shared household expense account. If we as a couple need $1.5M to retire, either of us can retire as soon as we individually have saved $750k. The risk being that the deal might not be upheld after the first one hits their number.
Too far?
This guy is clearly trolling us.
If these are really your strategies, I hope your wife does divorce you. She would be better off. Who in their right mind would want to FIRE with someone who thinks this way.
It's not trolling, it's just dark humor. And I am very much in favor of dark humor.
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No, because you aren't funny. You sound entirely unhinged. Don't go into writing or comedy. And while I share your values, I'm rooting for your wife to kick you to the curb at this point. She kept you guys on track all these years, BIRTHED YOUR CHILD, has acquiesced to MASSIVE CHANGES over the last 10 months, and now you're whining that the poor woman is reluctant to give up the things she values and the things that bring her joy after her husband went insane?
Your frustration is petty and unreasonable. Your 20% is unreasonable. The line of reasonableness is wherever you want it to be, but since you said you didn't want to end up getting divorced, I'm going to go with the line being somewhere in the vicinity of 'my husband went insane and I divorced him when he started completely ignoring me as a human being with thoughts, feelings, and goals of my own and only treated me like a walking paycheck.'
x 1,000,000 to the power of googolplex
Cheap Bastard, pay no mind. These folks need to watch some Bill Hicks/George Carlin/Louis CK/Bill Burr and have a stiff drink. Life isn't all rainbows and kittens. Might as well laugh about it. Touchy crowd.
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No, because you aren't funny. You sound entirely unhinged. Don't go into writing or comedy. And while I share your values, I'm rooting for your wife to kick you to the curb at this point. She kept you guys on track all these years, BIRTHED YOUR CHILD, has acquiesced to MASSIVE CHANGES over the last 10 months, and now you're whining that the poor woman is reluctant to give up the things she values and the things that bring her joy after her husband went insane?
Your frustration is petty and unreasonable. Your 20% is unreasonable. The line of reasonableness is wherever you want it to be, but since you said you didn't want to end up getting divorced, I'm going to go with the line being somewhere in the vicinity of 'my husband went insane and I divorced him when he started completely ignoring me as a human being with thoughts, feelings, and goals of my own and only treated me like a walking paycheck.'
x 1,000,000 to the power of googolplex
Cheap Bastard, pay no mind. These folks need to watch some Bill Hicks/George Carlin/Louis CK/Bill Burr and have a stiff drink. Life isn't all rainbows and kittens. Might as well laugh about it. Touchy crowd.
Meh. I'm a wicked funny guy, and I don't accomplish it by pilloring my wife on a hugely public forum. So ChpBstrd, if your wife found this, would she be surprised or upset? If no, carry on, and maybe get her to chime in. If yes, then you probably shouldn't be doing it, eh.
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If you spent all this excess energy towards working on how to make more $$$ you might be surprised at the results. I can't believe anyone who says its not possible to make more money.
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No, because you aren't funny. You sound entirely unhinged. Don't go into writing or comedy. And while I share your values, I'm rooting for your wife to kick you to the curb at this point. She kept you guys on track all these years, BIRTHED YOUR CHILD, has acquiesced to MASSIVE CHANGES over the last 10 months, and now you're whining that the poor woman is reluctant to give up the things she values and the things that bring her joy after her husband went insane?
Your frustration is petty and unreasonable. Your 20% is unreasonable. The line of reasonableness is wherever you want it to be, but since you said you didn't want to end up getting divorced, I'm going to go with the line being somewhere in the vicinity of 'my husband went insane and I divorced him when he started completely ignoring me as a human being with thoughts, feelings, and goals of my own and only treated me like a walking paycheck.'
x 1,000,000 to the power of googolplex
Cheap Bastard, pay no mind. These folks need to watch some Bill Hicks/George Carlin/Louis CK/Bill Burr and have a stiff drink. Life isn't all rainbows and kittens. Might as well laugh about it. Touchy crowd.
It's true, I am entirely devoid of a sense of humor, especially when it comes to men shitting on their wives. I'm just sensitive that way. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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I know that with the success we've had so far, my frustration seems petty and unreasonable to those struggling to reach even our level. But consider this: the difference between the status quo (~48% SR) and what I want (70% SR) is the difference between a starter mustachian wanting to save just 20% and their spouse who refuses to save anything. Which 20% is unreasonable? Where is the line of reasonableness?
The difference in a 0% vs 20% savings rate is the difference between never retiring ever and retiring in your 60's. The difference in a 48% vs 70% savings rate is the difference in early retiring in 12-14 years or 10 years. Do you really not see how those are different? Also, a 48% SR is only status quo here, it's an incredible rate for most of America.
To answer your question, it's your 20% that's unreasonable, at least from your wife's perspective.
It does translate to years of work though, and I worry my frustration now might seem mild compared to the final three years of my career, when I will know I'm there for the sake of a bunch of merchandise which by then will be buried in a landfill and a bunch of crappy restaurant meals that long ago became river water.
Any chance you could view those extra years as a gift you're giving your wife because you love her unconditionally, not because she owes you something?
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You say you cook half the time, does that include washing up after? And when you do the grocery shopping half the time, do you go to Whole Foods because thats what your wife likes, or do you go to the cheap place?
You say youve done everything YOU can do, but you can take over the other half of the cooking (as long as it includes dishes after) and all the shopping.
If your wife wants to go out, and you have a hot meal waiting in the crockpot, theres no way shes gonna turn you down.
Also you have a 2 year old. Toddlers are fucking hard. Wait til the kid is 4 and life is gonna feel so much better.
Also, you say you've done everything you can do, but do you ride a bike to work?
Case Study, Case study, Case study! And please delineate in the study which things are your wants and which are your wife's. (Totally hypothetical example: let's say you both need internet, but you need high-speed internet for work, then note that).
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No, because you aren't funny. You sound entirely unhinged. Don't go into writing or comedy. And while I share your values, I'm rooting for your wife to kick you to the curb at this point. She kept you guys on track all these years, BIRTHED YOUR CHILD, has acquiesced to MASSIVE CHANGES over the last 10 months, and now you're whining that the poor woman is reluctant to give up the things she values and the things that bring her joy after her husband went insane?
Your frustration is petty and unreasonable. Your 20% is unreasonable. The line of reasonableness is wherever you want it to be, but since you said you didn't want to end up getting divorced, I'm going to go with the line being somewhere in the vicinity of 'my husband went insane and I divorced him when he started completely ignoring me as a human being with thoughts, feelings, and goals of my own and only treated me like a walking paycheck.'
x 1,000,000 to the power of googolplex
Cheap Bastard, pay no mind. These folks need to watch some Bill Hicks/George Carlin/Louis CK/Bill Burr and have a stiff drink. Life isn't all rainbows and kittens. Might as well laugh about it. Touchy crowd.
Text is a terrible medium for sarcasm, especially when your audience thought you were being earnest...
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Cheap Bastard - it sounds like you really despise your job and your beige cubical. We've all been there. Until you can reach FI, could you move to a job you actually enjoy? This might include going down a notch in pay for more enjoyment. Personally, I'd rather work 10 years at a job I really like than 6 years at a job I really hate. You could also look into semi retired life for those final years. Get a part time job doing something you really enjoy that is nothing like your current career. I'd work at a doggy daycare for example.
Malum Prohibitum - I'm not trying to start a fight and really appreciate your honesty on this board. I'm just curious, where does this come from?
"I am unlike most on here. Old fashioned. Patriarchal. Woman should be submissive to the man, and all that (something with which my wife agrees and even sometimes gets on to me about if I falter)"
Is it religious? Cultural? Do you believe women can be smarter than men but should defer anyway? Really, just curious. I love to learn about other ways of life. I'm from a very liberal area and have a pretty gender non-conforming marriage. I (the wife) make more and work a higher status job than my husband. He does all the cooking, shopping and cleaning. It really works for us. I'm curious what part of that you would disapprove of. I have a good friend that converted to Southern Baptist for a girl he married. His religion believes as you believe. He explained it as you can never have two people in charge and it is just easier to have a rule of who defers. I prefer we take turns.
ETA: I 100% believe my husband is my equal if not smarter than me. We just ended up in different careers. He works hard at his and excels too.
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It sounds like you and your wife complement each other. Basically, that means you have very different skills, and when you work together you can do anything.
That does not mean it is easy to work together, of course!
Another inexpensive meals from my pantry: tuna noodle cassarole. 2 cans of tuna from Aldi's (60 cents each) 2 cans of cream of mushroom soup (60 cents each at Aldi's), and a pound of noodles $1 at Aldi's. Stir in frozen peas.
Do you have an Aldi's in your area?
Top with 2 handfuls of grated cheese before you put it in the oven, and while it cooks pick up the mess you just made and wipe the counter. This will give you and your family a pleasant meal in a tidy kitchen.
When I was raising kids I loved to eat out because I waited on everybody else's needs, and it was wonderful to sit in a clean place and have other people wait on mine. If your wife is like I was, it might decrease her desire to eat out if se can do the same thing at home. Not eliminate the desire to eat out, no, but she might desire it less.
I wish we had Aldi, or Costco. But no such luck. Kroger and Wal-Mart are the grocery duopoly in my town.
I love your recipie, and have given a similar recipie a shot, but the wife is finicky and gluten-intolerant. I have a brocholli-rice-cheese casserole that costs about $8 to make (with GF mushroom soup) and yields six whole meals. 2 cans cream of mush.2 cups shredded cheese. 1 bag defrosted brocholli. 2 cups rice. Stir and microwave. Optionally broil for 4 minutes afterwards for a crispy top. A few more recipies like yours and this one and we'll be doing well.
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I love your recipie, and have given a similar recipie a shot, but the wife is finicky and gluten-intolerant. I have a brocholli-rice-cheese casserole that costs about $8 to make (with GF mushroom soup) and yields six whole meals. 2 cans cream of mush.2 cups shredded cheese. 1 bag defrosted brocholli. 2 cups rice. Stir and microwave. Optionally broil for 4 minutes afterwards for a crispy top. A few more recipies like yours and this one and we'll be doing well.
You can make that even cheaper by learning to make a simple white sauce to substitute for the mushroom soup. It is traditionally thickened with flour, but I'm pretty sure there are GF recipes available.
Good point. I use rice flour (also gluten-intolerant) for cream soups and it works fine.
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I get that you're primarily venting here so your words are perhaps not as balanced as you actually think and feel about your marriage and long-term goals within your relationship. My reaction to your blatant disrespect aside, I do think that you should not just stop "pushing" FIRE on your partner, but stop pushing it on yourself and really take a step back and look at it from an entirely different angle than the financial one.
If you, as a family, had $5 million in the bank right now, what would you do TOGETHER? What are your shared dreams? What are the things you're excited about doing together when you're old and wrinkly and finish each other's stories all the time?
My worry is that you're using this newfound excitement for the potential of FIRE as a replacement for shared goals. I truly think you should completely dismiss the idea of FIRE for a month or two and instead put that same enthusiasm into finding frugal activities and hobbies the two of you can enjoy together -- NOT to save you more money, but to start rebuilding mutual interests and mutual respect for one another.
Smart questions. Yes, we lack shared long-term goals. I have never been able to talk with my wife about subjects beyond a couple years out, except perhaps school districts, life insurance, and our parents. She just won't go there.
I ask what she wants 5 years from now and get a blank stare. I, in the other hand, have the whole intended narrative of my life already imagined, and can't remember a time when my horizon of imagination was less than 4 years. Apparently, the wife's plan is the status quo. That's the best I can figure after a decade with her.
In the absence of any goals as a couple, I imagine myself splitting time between my kid and work growing a nonprofit that is dear to me. I also wish for some time to write offensive things on something besides a cell phone. As a couple, I know the wife would enjoy travel. Maybe that's the picture of our future I need to paint for her to sell her on FI.
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No, because you aren't funny. You sound entirely unhinged. Don't go into writing or comedy. And while I share your values, I'm rooting for your wife to kick you to the curb at this point. She kept you guys on track all these years, BIRTHED YOUR CHILD, has acquiesced to MASSIVE CHANGES over the last 10 months, and now you're whining that the poor woman is reluctant to give up the things she values and the things that bring her joy after her husband went insane?
Your frustration is petty and unreasonable. Your 20% is unreasonable. The line of reasonableness is wherever you want it to be, but since you said you didn't want to end up getting divorced, I'm going to go with the line being somewhere in the vicinity of 'my husband went insane and I divorced him when he started completely ignoring me as a human being with thoughts, feelings, and goals of my own and only treated me like a walking paycheck.'
x 1,000,000 to the power of googolplex
Cheap Bastard, pay no mind. These folks need to watch some Bill Hicks/George Carlin/Louis CK/Bill Burr and have a stiff drink. Life isn't all rainbows and kittens. Might as well laugh about it. Touchy crowd.
Gallows humor is dead. Hyperbole is an alien concept. Laughing at one's own predicament seems insincere in a narcissistic age.
But I will say this. The humor helps you see your own absurdities sometimes. What doom would await us if we were blind to that?
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It does translate to years of work though, and I worry my frustration now might seem mild compared to the final three years of my career, when I will know I'm there for the sake of a bunch of merchandise which by then will be buried in a landfill and a bunch of crappy restaurant meals that long ago became river water.
No, you'll be there because you compromised on things which made your wife happy.
Cheap Bastard - it sounds like you really despise your job and your beige cubical. We've all been there. Until you can reach FI, could you move to a job you actually enjoy? This might include going down a notch in pay for more enjoyment. Personally, I'd rather work 10 years at a job I really like than 6 years at a job I really hate. You could also look into semi retired life for those final years. Get a part time job doing something you really enjoy that is nothing like your current career. I'd work at a doggy daycare for example.
This is a really good point. You're lucky you have a wife who is not financially motivated and presumably would support your decision to move to a lesser paying but more rewarding job.
You've said your wife doesn't set long term goals but likes to travel. How about a compromise then? Can you think of a trip you could take with a little one. How could you achieve that fairly frugally, using loyalty points etc? Once you've priced it up then suggest it to your wife and ask if she'd halve the restaurant budget for 6-12 months to pay for it. Then go and enjoy a family vacation without bitching about how many weeks earlier you could have FIRE'd if you hadn't gone.
If it goes well then is the time to say 'wouldn't it be great if we could do this and then not have to go back to work the next day'?
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No, because you aren't funny. You sound entirely unhinged. Don't go into writing or comedy. And while I share your values, I'm rooting for your wife to kick you to the curb at this point. She kept you guys on track all these years, BIRTHED YOUR CHILD, has acquiesced to MASSIVE CHANGES over the last 10 months, and now you're whining that the poor woman is reluctant to give up the things she values and the things that bring her joy after her husband went insane?
Your frustration is petty and unreasonable. Your 20% is unreasonable. The line of reasonableness is wherever you want it to be, but since you said you didn't want to end up getting divorced, I'm going to go with the line being somewhere in the vicinity of 'my husband went insane and I divorced him when he started completely ignoring me as a human being with thoughts, feelings, and goals of my own and only treated me like a walking paycheck.'
x 1,000,000 to the power of googolplex
Cheap Bastard, pay no mind. These folks need to watch some Bill Hicks/George Carlin/Louis CK/Bill Burr and have a stiff drink. Life isn't all rainbows and kittens. Might as well laugh about it. Touchy crowd.
Gallows humor is dead. Hyperbole is an alien concept. Laughing at one's own predicament seems insincere in a narcissistic age.
But I will say this. The humor helps you see your own absurdities sometimes. What doom would await us if we were blind to that?
Amen.
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No, because you aren't funny. You sound entirely unhinged. Don't go into writing or comedy. And while I share your values, I'm rooting for your wife to kick you to the curb at this point. She kept you guys on track all these years, BIRTHED YOUR CHILD, has acquiesced to MASSIVE CHANGES over the last 10 months, and now you're whining that the poor woman is reluctant to give up the things she values and the things that bring her joy after her husband went insane?
Your frustration is petty and unreasonable. Your 20% is unreasonable. The line of reasonableness is wherever you want it to be, but since you said you didn't want to end up getting divorced, I'm going to go with the line being somewhere in the vicinity of 'my husband went insane and I divorced him when he started completely ignoring me as a human being with thoughts, feelings, and goals of my own and only treated me like a walking paycheck.'
x 1,000,000 to the power of googolplex
Cheap Bastard, pay no mind. These folks need to watch some Bill Hicks/George Carlin/Louis CK/Bill Burr and have a stiff drink. Life isn't all rainbows and kittens. Might as well laugh about it. Touchy crowd.
It's true, I am entirely devoid of a sense of humor, especially when it comes to men shitting on their wives. I'm just sensitive that way. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It was just such obvious hyperbole. I have a hard time seeing how anyone took the OP's suggestions of bribery, extortion, etc. seriously. The guy is probably perfectly kind to his wife, but experiences pretty normal differences of opinion and appropriately vents about it on an online message board. The responses made it out like he was some sort of abusive husband. Christ.
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No, because you aren't funny. You sound entirely unhinged. Don't go into writing or comedy. And while I share your values, I'm rooting for your wife to kick you to the curb at this point. She kept you guys on track all these years, BIRTHED YOUR CHILD, has acquiesced to MASSIVE CHANGES over the last 10 months, and now you're whining that the poor woman is reluctant to give up the things she values and the things that bring her joy after her husband went insane?
Your frustration is petty and unreasonable. Your 20% is unreasonable. The line of reasonableness is wherever you want it to be, but since you said you didn't want to end up getting divorced, I'm going to go with the line being somewhere in the vicinity of 'my husband went insane and I divorced him when he started completely ignoring me as a human being with thoughts, feelings, and goals of my own and only treated me like a walking paycheck.'
x 1,000,000 to the power of googolplex
Cheap Bastard, pay no mind. These folks need to watch some Bill Hicks/George Carlin/Louis CK/Bill Burr and have a stiff drink. Life isn't all rainbows and kittens. Might as well laugh about it. Touchy crowd.
Text is a terrible medium for sarcasm, especially when your audience thought you were being earnest...
Agreed, but come on: "competitive extortion", "shaming"? People really take that seriously? There is a difference between subtle sarcasm that is easily taken seriously and blatant, clear as day exaggeration. Or maybe the pre-requisite for participating in any online activity should be living in New England for at least three years to learn basic Sarcasm. Do I need to put a disclaimer on that? ...I'm not actually in favor of government enforced relocation to New England...
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No, because you aren't funny. You sound entirely unhinged. Don't go into writing or comedy. And while I share your values, I'm rooting for your wife to kick you to the curb at this point. She kept you guys on track all these years, BIRTHED YOUR CHILD, has acquiesced to MASSIVE CHANGES over the last 10 months, and now you're whining that the poor woman is reluctant to give up the things she values and the things that bring her joy after her husband went insane?
Your frustration is petty and unreasonable. Your 20% is unreasonable. The line of reasonableness is wherever you want it to be, but since you said you didn't want to end up getting divorced, I'm going to go with the line being somewhere in the vicinity of 'my husband went insane and I divorced him when he started completely ignoring me as a human being with thoughts, feelings, and goals of my own and only treated me like a walking paycheck.'
x 1,000,000 to the power of googolplex
Cheap Bastard, pay no mind. These folks need to watch some Bill Hicks/George Carlin/Louis CK/Bill Burr and have a stiff drink. Life isn't all rainbows and kittens. Might as well laugh about it. Touchy crowd.
Text is a terrible medium for sarcasm, especially when your audience thought you were being earnest...
Agreed, but come on: "competitive extortion", "shaming"? People really take that seriously? There is a difference between subtle sarcasm that is easily taken seriously and blatant, clear as day exaggeration. Or maybe the pre-requisite for participating in any online activity should be living in New England for at least three years to learn basic Sarcasm. Do I need to put a disclaimer on that? ...I'm not actually in favor of government enforced relocation to New England...
Yup. Probably because ChpBstd misjudged his audience. This thread is one of his first posts, so the forumites have no prior knowledge of his baseline personality, from which we can judge hyperbole and sarcasm. And he posted in Ask A Mustachian, where tyro's posting case studies are often combative, surly, and don't address genuinely helpful posts. He also posted on a fourm that contains a whole sub-thread dedicated sole to, yup, shaming. Based on that scant information, why not take ChpBstd at his word about his 4-step plan? The audience simply isn't primed for sarcasm, and ChpBstd failed to break the surface assumptions and cue people into his humor.
I asked a question before, but I got ignored. Here's what I wonder: So ChpBstrd, if your wife found this, would she be surprised or upset? If no, carry on, and maybe get her to chime in. If yes, then you probably shouldn't be doing it, eh. Be as funny as you want, but as far as I can tell, there's an edge to your humor that's being driven into someone else. Why should I laugh?
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*snipped quotes*
Yup. Probably because ChpBstd misjudged his audience. This thread is one of his first posts, so the forumites have no prior knowledge of his baseline personality, from which we can judge hyperbole and sarcasm. And he posted in Ask A Mustachian, where tyro's posting case studies are often combative, surly, and don't address genuinely helpful posts. He also posted on a fourm that contains a whole sub-thread dedicated sole to, yup, shaming. Based on that scant information, why not take ChpBstd at his word about his 4-step plan? The audience simply isn't primed for sarcasm, and ChpBstd failed to break the surface assumptions and cue people into his humor.
I asked a question before, but I got ignored. Here's what I wonder: So ChpBstrd, if your wife found this, would she be surprised or upset? If no, carry on, and maybe get her to chime in. If yes, then you probably shouldn't be doing it, eh. Be as funny as you want, but as far as I can tell, there's an edge to your humor that's being driven into someone else. Why should I laugh?
+1. I agree completely.
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Thanks all. I also have some potentially passive-aggressive semi-ethical strategies and need some second opinions:
1) HUNGER STRIKE: When we go to a restaurant, occasionally don't order anything. Explain that I'd rather the money to go savings. Lead by example and learn self control simultaneously.
2) BRIBERY: When the wife is about to buy something, offer "If you don't buy that trinket, I'll give you a 20 minute back massage tonight." And that's how you work for your spouse at $100/hour. The risk is that more trinkets are considered in exchange for more back rubs.
3) COMPETITIVE EXTORTION & SHAMING: Separate my and her credit card accounts. Pay for household necessities only from a third account. Watch who spends more on themselves.
4) CUT LOOSE: Un-merge our finances. Contribute half and half to a shared household expense account. If we as a couple need $1.5M to retire, either of us can retire as soon as we individually have saved $750k. The risk being that the deal might not be upheld after the first one hits their number.
Too far?
I haven't read through this whole thread and probably won't because it royally pissed me off.
I may be a little sensitive on this subject, but I was married to someone who sounds a lot like you. His inflexibility and constant looking down on me for my spending habits did an awful lot to destroy the marriage. We were probably saving at least 50% of our income. He wanted to save every penny he could. I got reamed about purchasing $1.00 spagehtti sauce instead of $.75 spaghetti sauce. I wanted to retire early (he didn't), save for college for the kids, save for vacations and have some discretionary funds. Every time I tried to talk to him about a different approach or different ideas or compromise, I was stonewalled. I started spending money I wouldn't have normally spent in revenge (It got crazy bad for a while). His inability to compromise with me on money or even work out a joint plan was the number one factor in killing our marriage. You need to decide if you want to be married. If you do, the relationship needs to be the most important thing. If you don't give a shit about your wife or her feelings then proceed on ahead.
BTW, I finally divorced him and my life and my kids lives are so much less stressful without a man who was obsessed with saving every fucking penny that came into his hands.
(edit...maybe this was all hyperbole, I don't know, but it hits too close to home for me as my husband actually did these sorts of things...feel free to disregard my post if you like)
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One other thought - if the reason she likes to eat out is because she likes fancy food, try to replicate it at home. I don't think you can slash your grocery budget and your eating out budget at the same time. My husband and I rarely eat out anymore but that is because we eat like kings at home. Yeah, our grocery budget is higher than someone who doesn't eat lamb, steak, lobster, pork loin - but we are saving thousands by cooking it ourselves. A one pound lobster is $6 at my grocery store and $25 at the local restaurant. We can make a gourmet meal for 2 for $15 that would be $100+ if we ate out.
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Don't forget, if she divorces YOU for being a stingy miser, that will cost you WAY WAY WAY more than the 5-10k a year that you are talking about.
My mother didn't divorce my father (he died of cancer first) but 30 years later she still complains about his stinginess.
Find a compromise. Make small gains. Find a way to do it together so you both feel you are achieving what you want.
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[/quote]
Yup. Probably because ChpBstd misjudged his audience. This thread is one of his first posts, so the forumites have no prior knowledge of his baseline personality, from which we can judge hyperbole and sarcasm. And he posted in Ask A Mustachian, where tyro's posting case studies are often combative, surly, and don't address genuinely helpful posts. He also posted on a fourm that contains a whole sub-thread dedicated sole to, yup, shaming. Based on that scant information, why not take ChpBstd at his word about his 4-step plan? The audience simply isn't primed for sarcasm, and ChpBstd failed to break the surface assumptions and cue people into his humor.
I asked a question before, but I got ignored. Here's what I wonder: So ChpBstrd, if your wife found this, would she be surprised or upset? If no, carry on, and maybe get her to chime in. If yes, then you probably shouldn't be doing it, eh. Be as funny as you want, but as far as I can tell, there's an edge to your humor that's being driven into someone else. Why should I laugh?
[/quote]
Seriously? We are in the forum of a blog written by the King of Hyperbole. Facepunches, bedpans, catheters. Shall I go on? This is exactly the type of hair trigger moral outrage makes the internet less and less fun.
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I've always been that guy who starts a 5k running as hard as he can and finishes walking. So I'll give it a while, consolidate our pace for a year or so, and try some of the slow-road-to-persuasion methods mentioned in other posts.
There's no running program in the world that suggests that method. In fact, the concept of NEGATIVE SPLITS is actually one that suggests you are running to your full potential. :)
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I haven't read through this whole thread and probably won't because it royally pissed me off.
You should
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So I discovered FI blogs like MMM about 10 months ago, did my own math, and realized that with a net worth of around 500k, the wife and I (ages 35 and 38 with one 2 year old kid) could FIRE comfortably in less than 10 years. I was ecstatic. I wanted to do whatever it takes to make that 7-8 years instead. Years of low-level frugality was going to pay off! Our dreams were within reach.
So here we are with incompatible life goals and a feeling that we are interfering with one another's well-being. She resents me groaning when a new $30 piece of "decor" arrives to clutter up our already-too-big house. She's irritated by my struggles not to resort to restaurant food when it's late and we're away from home. My few wins have been maxing out her 403 (b) and my 401 (k) deductions, maxing our Roth contributions, insulating the attic myself, keeping our 2 cars semi-frugal (5-6 year old subcompacts), carpooling when it's convenient, using a 2% cash back card, switching insurance and raising the deductibles, switching to an interest-paying free checking account, having a yard sale, vacationing frugally, using FSA's, and buying a little bit of baby stuff used instead of new. Setting the thermostat to 68 in the winter and 75 in the summer have started to become the norm. I've cancelled most of my hobbies.
Which path would you take? I wonder how hard I can pull before the strong breaks?
This stood out, our dreams was used in place of your dream. You signed up and she didn't and you're replacing her dreams with your own.
My remedy would be to phrase FIRE differently. Instead od saying we can leave our jobs you can say we'll spend more time with the children. It's the same thing but one is an aspirational goal to reach for and the other is a goal of leaving something behind. Try figuring out what her goals in life are first and build from there.
What are your plans post-fire? FIRE is just a milestone; what do you plan on doing afterwards and have you described it to your wife?
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Yikes, this thread is turning into the latest season of southpark.
On topic though, I think OP needs to settle down and work more on finding out what his wife's long term goals are. Saving 50% is amazing. Perhaps the OP should focus on increasing his income to reach FI earlier if it's so important to get that extra 10k/year.
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Yup. Probably because ChpBstd misjudged his audience. This thread is one of his first posts, so the forumites have no prior knowledge of his baseline personality, from which we can judge hyperbole and sarcasm. And he posted in Ask A Mustachian, where tyro's posting case studies are often combative, surly, and don't address genuinely helpful posts. He also posted on a fourm that contains a whole sub-thread dedicated sole to, yup, shaming. Based on that scant information, why not take ChpBstd at his word about his 4-step plan? The audience simply isn't primed for sarcasm, and ChpBstd failed to break the surface assumptions and cue people into his humor.
I asked a question before, but I got ignored. Here's what I wonder: So ChpBstrd, if your wife found this, would she be surprised or upset? If no, carry on, and maybe get her to chime in. If yes, then you probably shouldn't be doing it, eh. Be as funny as you want, but as far as I can tell, there's an edge to your humor that's being driven into someone else. Why should I laugh?
Seriously? We are in the forum of a blog written by the King of Hyperbole. Facepunches, bedpans, catheters. Shall I go on? This is exactly the type of hair trigger moral outrage makes the internet less and less fun.
Yes, seriously. It's very clear that most people reading this post are not, in any way, interpreting ChpBstd's words as funny. You seemed to be asking why people couldn't see the hyperbole. I provide an answer; that in my opinion the miscommunication is a combination of audience and technical writing skill.
That answers why readers aren't seeing the intended hyperbole. Not being able to see hyperbole is different from seeing it, rejecting it, and then deciding to be morally outraged. The question if the readers should see ChpBstd's posts as hyperbolic, based simply on being posted to the MMM forum, is a different discussion.
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Yup. Probably because ChpBstd misjudged his audience. This thread is one of his first posts, so the forumites have no prior knowledge of his baseline personality, from which we can judge hyperbole and sarcasm. And he posted in Ask A Mustachian, where tyro's posting case studies are often combative, surly, and don't address genuinely helpful posts. He also posted on a fourm that contains a whole sub-thread dedicated sole to, yup, shaming. Based on that scant information, why not take ChpBstd at his word about his 4-step plan? The audience simply isn't primed for sarcasm, and ChpBstd failed to break the surface assumptions and cue people into his humor.
I asked a question before, but I got ignored. Here's what I wonder: So ChpBstrd, if your wife found this, would she be surprised or upset? If no, carry on, and maybe get her to chime in. If yes, then you probably shouldn't be doing it, eh. Be as funny as you want, but as far as I can tell, there's an edge to your humor that's being driven into someone else. Why should I laugh?
Seriously? We are in the forum of a blog written by the King of Hyperbole. Facepunches, bedpans, catheters. Shall I go on? This is exactly the type of hair trigger moral outrage makes the internet less and less fun.
Yes, seriously. It's very clear that most people reading this post are not, in any way, interpreting ChpBstd's words as funny. You seemed to be asking why people couldn't see the hyperbole. I provide an answer; that in my opinion the miscommunication is a combination of audience and technical writing skill.
That answers why readers aren't seeing the intended hyperbole. Not being able to see hyperbole is different from seeing it, rejecting it, and then deciding to be morally outraged. The question if the readers should see ChpBstd's posts as hyperbolic, based simply on being posted to the MMM forum, is a different discussion.
Fair enough. I can see where you are coming from. I suppose my overall point is that when a community starts to police the boundaries of what is acceptable so rigidly, it hampers the discussion. If making a slightly off-color joke feels like walking a tight rope where putting one foot wrong means the community comes down on you, then people stop making jokes altogether. In this case, ChpBstrd made a joke reflecting his frustration with his marriage, and people came thisclose to calling him a manipulative, abusive husband. That type of behavior, repeated over time, leaves us with stale, mundane, humorless discussion because no one wants to take the risk of getting on the wrong side of the Outrage Police. And I don't know about you all, but I really like to laugh.
To put things in perspective, we are just apes rattling away on keyboards. If you don't think it's funny, please just move on. The world won't be improved one bit if you convince some random guy named ChpBstrd not to make a joke you happen not to like. Moral outrage feels really good, which is why internet arguments escalate so quickly. But it's really destructive in the long run. The way to avoid it is to assume good intentions even when you don't want to, and ignore the parts you don't like.
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Personally I didn't even recognize it as an attempt at humor because it was too much in line with the original post. Secondly, having gone through a tough time as a kid being teased by classmates (they call that "bullying" now) I am very sensitive to humor at the expense at others. I find it intensely uncomfortable and not at all funny. Our preferred brand of humor in my household is ridiculousness, not meanness.
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I haven't read through this whole thread and probably won't because it royally pissed me off.
You should
I have read through it more once I cooled down and OP is hopefully just overzealous. He seems like a decent enough guy. However, I lived over 20 years in a situation like he described in his "passive-aggressive hyperbole" and when my husband acted like that in our marriage I felt put down, judged and like I didn't have an equal say in the marriage.
I think it is great what the OP and his wife have achieved together over the last 10 months and I hope they can find a way to financial independence that will meet both their financial and emotional needs.
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Yes, seriously. It's very clear that most people reading this post are not, in any way, interpreting ChpBstd's words as funny. You seemed to be asking why people couldn't see the hyperbole. I provide an answer; that in my opinion the miscommunication is a combination of audience and technical writing skill.
That answers why readers aren't seeing the intended hyperbole. Not being able to see hyperbole is different from seeing it, rejecting it, and then deciding to be morally outraged. The question if the readers should see ChpBstd's posts as hyperbolic, based simply on being posted to the MMM forum, is a different discussion.
Fair enough. I can see where you are coming from. I suppose my overall point is that when a community starts to police the boundaries of what is acceptable so rigidly, it hampers the discussion. If making a slightly off-color joke feels like walking a tight rope where putting one foot wrong means the community comes down on you, then people stop making jokes altogether. In this case, ChpBstrd made a joke reflecting his frustration with his marriage, and people came thisclose to calling him a manipulative, abusive husband. That type of behavior, repeated over time, leaves us with stale, mundane, humorless discussion because no one wants to take the risk of getting on the wrong side of the Outrage Police. And I don't know about you all, but I really like to laugh.
To put things in perspective, we are just apes rattling away on keyboards. If you don't think it's funny, please just move on. The world won't be improved one bit if you convince some random guy named ChpBstrd not to make a joke you happen not to like. Moral outrage feels really good, which is why internet arguments escalate so quickly. But it's really destructive in the long run. The way to avoid it is to assume good intentions even when you don't want to, and ignore the parts you don't like.
I fully agree with all your points about joking, and why internet arguments escalate so quickly. I also like to laugh, and like to walk away when the argument is futile.
My only real issue is that I had absolutely no idea this ChpBstd dude was trying to be funny. We could debate why - does he lack technical skill, or am I just a judgmental jerk...? But the fact that I, and many others, couldn't pick up on it means you're having a different discussion than the rest of us. If someone says "I like eating kittens for breakfast", and I take them literally, the discussion won't be about the appropriateness of joking, it will be about the ethicacy of eating kittens. If you hear the same thing, and think of it as joke, then you'll can have a discussion about the actual joke. We're literally having 2 different conversations.
I guess, my argument is that we're both right. Inappropriate jokes shouldn't be stepped on too hard, least we become a society that lacks courage and colour. BUT, in order for something to be risque, the author has to have enough recognition, or skill, or whatever to make the audience aware he's joking. Otherwise he's just a kitten consuming asshole. Right?
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Time to abandon post!
As earlier commenters pointed out, the mixing of serious financial/marital topic with hyperbole/black humor/sarcasm has thrown most folks for a loop. For that, I apologize.
Had I, for example, phrased "hunger strike" as "don't always order at restaurants," the reception would have been different. That's my fault, not yours, because the burden is on the communicator. I harvested a lot fewer ideas as a result.
Nonetheless, there were several constructive suggestions and personal stories that I appreciate:
1) take the slow - i.e. multi-year - road to persuasion, rather than insisting upon a sudden, radical change.
2) emphasize recipies/cooking to kill the restaurant bills.
3) the lack of shared life goals is the underlying conflict.
Thanks for your time, now...
Abandon post!
Abandon post!
Abandon post!
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It was just such obvious hyperbole...
People really take that seriously?...
In this case, ChpBstrd made a joke reflecting his frustration with his marriage, and people came thisclose to calling him a manipulative, abusive husband...
Looks like you were wrong.
The content of Cheap Bastard's post was absolutely not a joke, as he just indicated above.
You can find his first response after he posted the "joke" at Reply #74. In it, he says...
"OK, resolved.
I'll "chill" and keep working behind the scenes..."
If he intended it as a joke, he would have said something like..."That was a complete joke. I wasn't being serious. I just make up some dumb sh*t to get a laugh."
But instead, he said the issue was resolved and that he would chill out. This clearly indicates that the content of the 4 ideas he proposed was real and serious.
While the names/labels given to his 4 ideas were hyperbole (hunger strike, bribery, ect), the content & meaning behind those ideas was clearly serious.
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It was just such obvious hyperbole...
People really take that seriously?...
In this case, ChpBstrd made a joke reflecting his frustration with his marriage, and people came thisclose to calling him a manipulative, abusive husband...
Looks like you were wrong.
The content of Cheap Bastard's post was absolutely not a joke, as he just indicated above.
You can find his first response after he posted the "joke" at Reply #74. In it, he says...
"OK, resolved.
I'll "chill" and keep working behind the scenes..."
If he intended it as a joke, he would have said something like..."That was a complete joke. I wasn't being serious. I just make up some dumb sh*t to get a laugh."
But instead, he said the issue was resolved and that he would chill out. This clearly indicates that the content of the 4 ideas he proposed was real and serious.
While the names/labels given to his 4 ideas were hyperbole (hunger strike, bribery, ect), the content & meaning behind those ideas was clearly serious.
He has repeatedly said it was a joke. Read up.
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Yes, seriously. It's very clear that most people reading this post are not, in any way, interpreting ChpBstd's words as funny. You seemed to be asking why people couldn't see the hyperbole. I provide an answer; that in my opinion the miscommunication is a combination of audience and technical writing skill.
That answers why readers aren't seeing the intended hyperbole. Not being able to see hyperbole is different from seeing it, rejecting it, and then deciding to be morally outraged. The question if the readers should see ChpBstd's posts as hyperbolic, based simply on being posted to the MMM forum, is a different discussion.
Fair enough. I can see where you are coming from. I suppose my overall point is that when a community starts to police the boundaries of what is acceptable so rigidly, it hampers the discussion. If making a slightly off-color joke feels like walking a tight rope where putting one foot wrong means the community comes down on you, then people stop making jokes altogether. In this case, ChpBstrd made a joke reflecting his frustration with his marriage, and people came thisclose to calling him a manipulative, abusive husband. That type of behavior, repeated over time, leaves us with stale, mundane, humorless discussion because no one wants to take the risk of getting on the wrong side of the Outrage Police. And I don't know about you all, but I really like to laugh.
To put things in perspective, we are just apes rattling away on keyboards. If you don't think it's funny, please just move on. The world won't be improved one bit if you convince some random guy named ChpBstrd not to make a joke you happen not to like. Moral outrage feels really good, which is why internet arguments escalate so quickly. But it's really destructive in the long run. The way to avoid it is to assume good intentions even when you don't want to, and ignore the parts you don't like.
I fully agree with all your points about joking, and why internet arguments escalate so quickly. I also like to laugh, and like to walk away when the argument is futile.
My only real issue is that I had absolutely no idea this ChpBstd dude was trying to be funny. We could debate why - does he lack technical skill, or am I just a judgmental jerk...? But the fact that I, and many others, couldn't pick up on it means you're having a different discussion than the rest of us. If someone says "I like eating kittens for breakfast", and I take them literally, the discussion won't be about the appropriateness of joking, it will be about the ethicacy of eating kittens. If you hear the same thing, and think of it as joke, then you'll can have a discussion about the actual joke. We're literally having 2 different conversations.
I guess, my argument is that we're both right. Inappropriate jokes shouldn't be stepped on too hard, least we become a society that lacks courage and colour. BUT, in order for something to be risque, the author has to have enough recognition, or skill, or whatever to make the audience aware he's joking. Otherwise he's just a kitten consuming asshole. Right?
Haha, glad to hear we are on the same page here. I agree, clarity is important. It's unfortunate when pieces get lost, as you say. In the meantime, we really need to talk about your sociopathic jokes about kittens. The horror!
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He has repeatedly said it was a joke. Read up.
The LABELS/NAMES he gave to his 4 ideas were hyperbole.
The IDEAS he presented were not.
Read what he just posted a few minutes ago...
Had I, for example, phrased "hunger strike" as "don't always order at restaurants," the reception would have been different...
So while the name "Hunger Strike" was possibly meant to be funny, the idea he proposed was serious...
"Occasionally don't order anything. Explain that I'd rather the money to go savings. Lead by example and learn self control simultaneously."
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Admittedly, you sound overzealous. Its a my way or the highway mentality. I'd take offense at that too.
Marriage is compromise. That means you probably won't get your way if its important you stay married.
Its concerning when you say you've quit all your hobbies. Why? Just to reach an earlier FI date? Sheesh. That sounds depressing. Life is just as much the journey as the goal. Many would say its MORE about the former.
Anyway, if you value your marriage, you'll reign your obsession in. And yes, its an obsession.
Life is not suddenly over because of several add'l years of 'wage slavery'.
I agree. There is a certain amount of truth to "happy wife--happy life." As they say, so often in marriage, you can be happy or you can be right.
You both should compromise, but if either of you is hard-lined, all-or-nothing about your goals and put that above your marriage, you're headed for a cliff. You may have to be patient and settle for her tiny efforts to save money with you (even though you and perhaps most of us feel she is "wrong") and she will have to be patient with you and what she perceives as a bunch of frugality that is "not worth it." You might be surprised one day if you approach this with love and patience that months or years down the road she starts to see things more your way, but don't hold out.
We need a Mustachian counselor for times like this! I've avoided counseling before because I knew they would suggest I give up my Mustache ways to relieve stress...it's hard to find people who share our views on money...
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I just have one more thought on this topic that I hope comes across as relevant. Humans are both rational and emotional creatures and both parts have value.
From a completely logical standpoint, I should sell my house for it's appreciated value and move into something smaller with less taxes. As a rational person I understand this and I understand that I could probably invest the money and be damn close to FI. However, "it is not worth it" to me because I emotionally love my home and my neighborhood. I derive a lot of pleasure from my home. Therefore, I am willing to work a little bit longer to keep living there. I am also willing to work a little bit longer so that I can go have the occasional beer at the pub because I enjoy the atmosphere, even though logically it would cost less to drink it at home. I would be miserable if I was financially independent (as in could provide food, clothing and shelter for myself, but little else) but I couldn't/wouldn't spend on some of the things I enjoy.
I think that spouses need to try to understand both the logical and emotional reasons behind the other spouse's actions instead of just becoming entrenched in a position and a power struggle. I think that both the OP and his wife need to have some frank discussions about their feelings about money and their life goals without one trying to prove to the other that they are right.
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I'm very glad to hear that the OP was not as serious as he appeared. Definitely stick to the day job and give further attempts at comedy writing the old skippero!
I do not generally find the crusty old white dudes who were mentioned very funny, so it's no wonder I missed the jokes. I find blasphemy, surrealism, and cheerful nihilism much more funny. For instance, the Might Boosh is a riot!