Author Topic: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...  (Read 23927 times)

Telecaster

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #50 on: December 09, 2016, 06:51:47 PM »
My rather rude remaining options are my point of desperation.  Are we saying this is unsolvable?

No, but I think people are saying 1) don't be dick,  2) it is okay to compromise in relationships, and 3) don't be a dick.

 


researcher1

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2016, 07:01:57 PM »
Thanks all. I also have some potentially passive-aggressive semi-ethical strategies and need some second opinions:

1) HUNGER STRIKE: When we go to a restaurant, occasionally don't order anything. Explain that I'd rather the money to go savings. Lead by example and learn self control simultaneously.

2) BRIBERY: When the wife is about to buy something, offer "If you don't buy that trinket, I'll give you a 20 minute back massage tonight." And that's how you work for your spouse at $100/hour. The risk is that more trinkets are considered in exchange for more back rubs.

3) COMPETITIVE EXTORTION & SHAMING: Separate my and her credit card accounts. Pay for household necessities only from a third account. Watch who spends more on themselves.

4) CUT LOOSE: Un-merge our finances. Contribute half and half to a shared household expense account. If we as a couple need $1.5M to retire, either of us can retire as soon as we individually have saved $750k. The risk being that the deal might not be upheld after the first one hits their number.

Too far?

Dude, you need to see a psychiatrist ASAP.

You JUST got done saying the following...
Quote
Thanks for slapping me around a little bit, everyone. <--Honestly! The consensus has been received.

Yet, instead of taking everyone's advice to chill the f*ck out, you come back with these crazy marriage-ending ideas.

On top this, you state that your marriage has non-financial issues you are working on.

You're going to find yourself divorced and/or miserable if you don't get some help.

sol

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2016, 07:05:40 PM »
Be nice, r1.  Dude asked for help, he's getting it, there's no need to double down on him.

With This Herring

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2016, 07:15:25 PM »
Thanks all. I also have some potentially passive-aggressive semi-ethical strategies and need some second opinions:

1) HUNGER STRIKE: When we go to a restaurant, occasionally don't order anything. Explain that I'd rather the money to go savings. Lead by example and learn self control simultaneously.

This is a terrible idea.  Really terrible.  I am not a big restaurant-goer, but your wife is going to think "Is he really going to ruin a nice evening out?"  Going to a restaurant is a little date, and you are already having marital issues.  Why would you make this more difficult?

Order a less expensive entree for yourself, but don't just fail to eat.

2) BRIBERY: When the wife is about to buy something, offer "If you don't buy that trinket, I'll give you a 20 minute back massage tonight." And that's how you work for your spouse at $100/hour. The risk is that more trinkets are considered in exchange for more back rubs.

Nope nope nope.  Do not treat your wife like a child.  Don't bargain.  Give affection freely.

3) COMPETITIVE EXTORTION & SHAMING: Separate my and her credit card accounts. Pay for household necessities only from a third account. Watch who spends more on themselves.

How are you going to explain this one to her?  Do you really want to make a big point of "I'm right and you're wrong!"?  Why would you try to make this a competition with your wife whom you love?  This doesn't sound like a fun competition, and "SHAMING" your spouse makes you sound like a scumbag.

4) CUT LOOSE: Un-merge our finances. Contribute half and half to a shared household expense account. If we as a couple need $1.5M to retire, either of us can retire as soon as we individually have saved $750k. The risk being that the deal might not be upheld after the first one hits their number.

To tell your wife that you are going to separate your finances after them being merged for so long screams "I am getting ready for a divorce.  I am financially untangling myself from you, as we are already drawing apart emotionally.  I have probably already found a lawyer and possibly a woman on the side."

DO NOT DO THIS.

Too far?

Yes, every single thing you've suggested is too far.  You need to slow down and think about what is causing strain in your marriage.  Be more giving and less transactional.  Work on YOU cooking more and YOU doing things to make your home life easier so that there is less of an impetus to go to restaurants.  Don't do nice things for your wife but then turn around and say "You owe me one!"

Your savings rate is good.  Yes, numerically it could be improved, but let this rest for a year.  Stop talking about retirement until your wife brings it up.  When you give up all your hobbies and only talk about FIRE and how you need to save more for FIRE and how you will FIRE in exactly 10 years if you cut out all the pleasant things for which your wife has worked for years and how your FIRE plans will be affected by the stock market's performance this month and what that MMM guy has to say about FIRE and what a fool your wife is for not understanding this really easy math that shows FIRE can be here in a decade...you become a very boring, unpleasant person.  And, worse, you become a person who is less and less like the person your wife married.

catccc

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2016, 07:28:49 PM »
here's a reasonable way to save money on dining out.  Eat a relatively filling snack before hand, and at the restaurant, order a salad or appetizer or other small plate as your meal.  If wife inquires about choice just explain you aren't that hungry, but you want a little something so you can enjoy some food with her.  Enjoy your meal and the family time or date.  No passive aggressiveness necessary!  I do this all the time when friends or coworkers want to dine out and I'm trying to keep expenses down.

btw, kudos to OP for taking all the advice pretty well so far, IMO.

My advice is to talk about being able to spend money on the things you value without worry.  I think that is really what FIRE is about for me.  More about that than just retiring early.  I've always been pretty frugal, but once you get into it, you start to realize that there are some things that you spend money on that don't really add value to your life.  For instance, if she likes buying cute things on etsy, what are they?  Clothes?  Accessories?  If she has a closet full of clothes and feels she has nothing to wear, something like building a capsule wardrobe and learning to simplify could be a money saving move, but the purpose is less to save money and more to find your style and simplify your life.  I'm pretty sure most moms of toddlers wouldn't mind simplifying their lives and feeling stylish.   Cutting out cable?  Maybe it's more about finding more interactive ways to spend quality time with your spouse instead of vegging out in front of the TV.   Anyway, just an example.  This way you aren't a cheap bastard, just a believer in life and improvement.  That kind of thing.

If you go this route, I'd first let the remains of your hard push for FI fizzle out.  I really think these things make for a better life.  Truly.  And I think if you keep at it on your end, but make it about focusing on what really brings value to your life, she'll see the positive changes.  She may not announce, "you're right, we gotta get to FI asap!"  But she may start changing her behaviors in ways that will support FI. 

sorry if this is a repeat suggestion... there are lots of replies, I only skimmed many of them.



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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2016, 08:02:36 PM »
I think it's important for you to realize that your quest for FI has already landed you in counseling. Now, you were hoping that your counselor would convince your wife that your FI plans are solid. Your wife probably went into counselling hoping the counselor would convince you to stop badgering her about expenses.

Your reaction to the failure of the counseling to go your way is to seek out new and improved ways to badger your wife about expenses.

This was a clear failure for both of you.

You both felt strongly enough to go to marriage counseling, but the problems that you led you there are on the verge of getting worse.

It's not that we on the MMM forum think it's unreasonable for you to want to cut your grocery bill. It's that your wife has already compromised on a large number of things to help you save money, and you've compromised on nothing. Take a break from nagging her for a few months. Then, when things have settled down, ask her if she thinks there are any areas of the budget that she thinks your family can work on. If she has no ideas, try to prod her with something like, "Last year, we spent $6,000 on restaurants. I feel like I want to eat out less. What do you think our target budget for restaurant eating should be? How can we address our restaurant triggers?" (Do not say, "Eating at restaurants is a waste! I wouldn't even do it all if it were up to me! Our restaurant budget should be $0! This is ridiculous!") If you feel that your restaurant budget should be $0 and she says she might be willing to cut out $500, then start with $500. When you're successful with that, ask her if she thinks you can go farther. If she says no, look for another area of the budget to tackle.

But keep in mind, this is a conversation for later. Several months from now, maybe. Spend your counseling time improving on the other areas of your marriage that might need improvement and then revisit the financial issue at a later date. Think carefully about how much you try to force on her at once and how you're presenting it. 

Remember that constant badgering puts people on the defensive. She is learning to say "no" by instinct, because "yes" has won her nothing.

katscratch

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2016, 08:54:48 PM »
I'm new here so can't speak as well to the financial side of retiring early, but I do have a question.  WHY do you WANT to retire early?  As in, what are your plans and hopes and dreams for the following 35-50 etc years?

To me your passion for accumulating a giant pile of money is very clear. 

You've said absolutely nothing that indicates you have any passion for doing anything with your partner besides disrespect and ridicule her into suddenly wanting to also accumulate a giant pile of money for no apparent reason other than to stop working. 

I get that you're primarily venting here so your words are perhaps not as balanced as you actually think and feel about your marriage and long-term goals within your relationship.  My reaction to your blatant disrespect aside, I do think that you should not just stop "pushing" FIRE on your partner, but stop pushing it on yourself and really take a step back and look at it from an entirely different angle than the financial one. 

If you, as a family, had $5 million in the bank right now, what would you do TOGETHER?  What are your shared dreams?  What are the things you're excited about doing together when you're old and wrinkly and finish each other's stories all the time? 

My worry is that you're using this newfound excitement for the potential of FIRE as a replacement for shared goals.  I truly think you should completely dismiss the idea of FIRE for a month or two and instead put that same enthusiasm into finding frugal activities and hobbies the two of you can enjoy together -- NOT to save you more money, but to start rebuilding mutual interests and mutual respect for one another. 
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 09:00:11 PM by katscratch »

bacchi

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #57 on: December 09, 2016, 09:25:26 PM »
It could take years to convince the SO. Do the best you can and accept that.

There may be a time when you can just state, "I'm going FIRE. Do it with me or continue working," and she'll accept it. You're not there yet.

Jaguar Paw

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #58 on: December 09, 2016, 09:55:53 PM »
Yes....way too far. My wife would shank me if I tried to pull any of those stunts, and who actuall tries to be passive aggressive?

teen persuasion

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #59 on: December 09, 2016, 10:22:10 PM »
Thanks all. I also have some potentially passive-aggressive semi-ethical strategies and need some second opinions:

1) HUNGER STRIKE: When we go to a restaurant, occasionally don't order anything. Explain that I'd rather the money to go savings. Lead by example and learn self control simultaneously.

2) BRIBERY: When the wife is about to buy something, offer "If you don't buy that trinket, I'll give you a 20 minute back massage tonight." And that's how you work for your spouse at $100/hour. The risk is that more trinkets are considered in exchange for more back rubs.

3) COMPETITIVE EXTORTION & SHAMING: Separate my and her credit card accounts. Pay for household necessities only from a third account. Watch who spends more on themselves.

4) CUT LOOSE: Un-merge our finances. Contribute half and half to a shared household expense account. If we as a couple need $1.5M to retire, either of us can retire as soon as we individually have saved $750k. The risk being that the deal might not be upheld after the first one hits their number.

Too far?

Oy, slow down, pace yourself.  Getting to fire is a marathon, not a sprint.  You won't reach the finish line by goading your teammates into throttling you, you'll just get everyone DQ'd.

Try resetting your POV.  Look at things not just from what you want to achieve, or what would make you happy, but rather what your family wants to achieve and what makes your family happy.

So first you need to find out what the rest of your family values.  Talk to your wife, ask her, and LISTEN.  Think about what she says for while (maybe days), see where your values overlap and mesh.  Some of her ideas may be new to you, but might be ones you'd like to adopt, too.  (One of the things I like best about marriage - our different mindsets and skills are a plus, I learn new things from DH and the kids, and vice versa).

Now realize that you are living in the current day, not holding your breath until you reach FIRE.  Yes, you save to reach your goals, but you also arrange things to live a happy and pleasant life right now, too.  Doing thoughtful, loving things for each other feels much more happy and pleasant than passive-aggressive, semi-ethical shaming extortion and bribery (your words, think about what your choice of words says). 

Stop talking about saving and money and FIRE for while.  She's heard you.  Now show her that it is not about deprivation (a negative) but about deliberately choosing to do and spend on those things that have meaning for your family (a positive).  Make your life together happy, not combative.

And yes, some of the best things in life are free.  Like backrubs.  Just do it, no bribing.

alewpanda

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #60 on: December 09, 2016, 10:50:08 PM »
You need to take into consideration her feelings...and not just to manipulate her.

Pretty things are fun, they provide a little relief, they beautify your home, They are a tough thing to give up sometimes.

People sometimes shop out of boredom.  So help her be less bored -- by doing free or fun things with her.

People sometimes feel unappreciated...particularly unappreciated by a spouse...and the spending is a pick me up.   Perhaps show some appreciation?

People sometimes want to feel special and carefree --so they go out to eat.  Find ways to help her relax and feel carefree on a regular basis so she won't feel a need so often to go out. 

People want to feel like they compare to others...so they will look or behave a certain way.  Perhaps you need to work on showing her that she is number one in your eyes always.


This is not a barter situation -- its a "I will do these things consistently, and maybe they will help the spending, but either way they will help our marriage and my attitude" situation.  All of these are free or cheap to do.  All will help your marriage situation.  All *could* help the spending and *may* make her more open to FIRE at some point...but may not. 


Also, dream dreams with her...don't force FIRE down her throat if she has no idea what those years would look like or if they would even be fun.  If you two aren't having fun now...you won't have fun later....

Zikoris

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #61 on: December 09, 2016, 10:58:04 PM »
Thanks all. I also have some potentially passive-aggressive semi-ethical strategies and need some second opinions:

1) HUNGER STRIKE: When we go to a restaurant, occasionally don't order anything. Explain that I'd rather the money to go savings. Lead by example and learn self control simultaneously.

2) BRIBERY: When the wife is about to buy something, offer "If you don't buy that trinket, I'll give you a 20 minute back massage tonight." And that's how you work for your spouse at $100/hour. The risk is that more trinkets are considered in exchange for more back rubs.

3) COMPETITIVE EXTORTION & SHAMING: Separate my and her credit card accounts. Pay for household necessities only from a third account. Watch who spends more on themselves.

4) CUT LOOSE: Un-merge our finances. Contribute half and half to a shared household expense account. If we as a couple need $1.5M to retire, either of us can retire as soon as we individually have saved $750k. The risk being that the deal might not be upheld after the first one hits their number.

Too far?

These are hilarious! I think it really depends on your relationship.

Hunger-striking sounds really embarrassing for her. What about restaurant-striking instead, and just not going in the first place?

Bribery could be a slippery slope. I bribed my boyfriend to write a speech for me (with pumpkin tarts) a few days ago, but it's probably not something to do too often if you want a healthy relationship.

A lot of couples with different spending habits do find separating their finances makes them a lot happier and less stressed out, so it's something to at least talk about. Then if she wants to buy crap and eat out, she can do so without you having to pay for it. Heck, I've always had separate finances even with a partner with the SAME spending habits, out of personal preference.

Lagom

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #62 on: December 09, 2016, 11:05:54 PM »
Just read through this thread and I'll just say that if you truly value your marriage (i.e. you would do anything for your wife because being with her brings more happiness than you can imagine being without her), you definitely need to chill in general. At your savings rate, fixating on the "years" lost because she won't move even more extremely (by 99% of the populations view) is self-destructive. There is more to life than optimized FIRE date.

I say this as someone who tried to convince my SO at the time I discovered MMM to change drastically, with disastrous results. Unlike with your situation, my ex-wife wasn't on board with a 10% savings rate, much less 50%! I have no idea what your relationship is like, but I will say that in my case, we had fundamentally different values and divorce was the inevitable outcome. I also felt feelings similar to what you have expressed, although the details seem to indicate that my ex was far less mustachian than your wife. In your case, your SO seems uncommonly mustachian by default. If savings rate is truly your only point of contention, 100% get over it. If not, you may have deeper issues than any of us can address here.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 11:08:43 PM by Lagom »

Bee21

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #63 on: December 09, 2016, 11:21:46 PM »
Thanks all. I also have some potentially passive-aggressive semi-ethical strategies and need some second opinions:

1) HUNGER STRIKE: When we go to a restaurant, occasionally don't order anything. Explain that I'd rather the money to go savings. Lead by example and learn self control simultaneously.

2) BRIBERY: When the wife is about to buy something, offer "If you don't buy that trinket, I'll give you a 20 minute back massage tonight." And that's how you work for your spouse at $100/hour. The risk is that more trinkets are considered in exchange for more back rubs.

3) COMPETITIVE EXTORTION & SHAMING: Separate my and her credit card accounts. Pay for household necessities only from a third account. Watch who spends more on themselves.

4) CUT LOOSE: Un-merge our finances. Contribute half and half to a shared household expense account. If we as a couple need $1.5M to retire, either of us can retire as soon as we individually have saved $750k. The risk being that the deal might not be upheld after the first one hits their number.

Too far?

Way too far. Unless you want a divorce.

Do not do that restaurant thing. Humiliating the wife like this will end you in the doghouse.competitive extortion and shaming? Wtf.plus it will make you look like an idiot.

 Your attitude is childish, agressive and immature. Work on it.

By the way, u trolling? Are you real?

Your wife is a saint.

greenbull

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #64 on: December 10, 2016, 12:26:10 AM »
Its the classic case of convincing.  Your math is graduate thesis, but try to convince your wife and your still in kindergarten.  What does the 4% rule matter when your wife hands you a report card that says "DOES NOT PLAY WELL WITH OTHERS".

The challenge is to get your wife on your side, to do that you must be patient, and why not be patient?  You have years to get this right!

First rule - no diarrhea: particularly the diarrhea coming out your mouth about your wife's lifestyle.  Any complaints you give her will have her cleaning all the shit you spilled instead of getting on board.

Second rule - Have sex: not only is it low cost with the proper birth control, but you also have to put in the correct amount of effort.  All you have to do is buy some nice ingredients that are not too expensive, but not boring and cheap either, and make a nice meal together instead of going out to eat.  Of course there are more ways to have fun for less money, and the main point is that you MUST replace the restaurants with something equally or greater fun.  Simply taking the fun away is for communists and 6-year-olds.

Third rule - make it her idea: I'm sure your wife has done things that are frugal.  Take even the small things, such as getting some clothing off the clearance rack, and praise her.  Talk about how she saved more than you could, and say it in an HONEST MANNER.

Let us know if you get off you childish diarrhea act - it was a beautiful thing when my wife got on board with mustachianism, and she wasn't on board at first.

Unique User

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #65 on: December 10, 2016, 07:30:09 AM »
Thanks all. I also have some potentially passive-aggressive semi-ethical strategies and need some second opinions:

1) HUNGER STRIKE: When we go to a restaurant, occasionally don't order anything. Explain that I'd rather the money to go savings. Lead by example and learn self control simultaneously.

2) BRIBERY: When the wife is about to buy something, offer "If you don't buy that trinket, I'll give you a 20 minute back massage tonight." And that's how you work for your spouse at $100/hour. The risk is that more trinkets are considered in exchange for more back rubs.

3) COMPETITIVE EXTORTION & SHAMING: Separate my and her credit card accounts. Pay for household necessities only from a third account. Watch who spends more on themselves.

4) CUT LOOSE: Un-merge our finances. Contribute half and half to a shared household expense account. If we as a couple need $1.5M to retire, either of us can retire as soon as we individually have saved $750k. The risk being that the deal might not be upheld after the first one hits their number.

Too far?

These tactics will lead to divorce and you already said you didn't want that.  You need to chill out, seriously.  Choose one item, maybe restaurant meals to attack.  Make a bunch of freezer meals and try to set a restaurant meal budget that she can live with.   

One idea for you on the restaurant meal front since you seem kind of hardcore and it sounds like your wife likes restaurants.  My teen loves restaurants, but our budget is for 1 per month.  To keep her happy, I do mystery shops, 1-3 a week, a mix of fast food, take out and restaurants.  And once I found the really high end ones, the husband was happy to tag along.  This year he and I have had date nights at Ruth Chris twice, Fleming's once, The Capital Grille twice and Bahama Breeze twice along with a couple other local/regional places, our total out of pocket is maybe $20-$30 for a once a month date night at a nice restaurant.  After four years, they both will help with names and timings and will take pictures for those rare ones that want pictures of the food.  I'm the weirdo that actually doesn't mind doing the reports, so for me it's a money making hobby.  This year I've made about $600 in fees just for restaurants and had about $3,200 in restaurant meals reimbursed.  And I haven't paid for an oil change or car wash for my car in three years.

How do you get the good mystery shopper gigs, if you don't mind sharing? That sounds like a good way to get restaurant meals cheaply!

You have to start small.  I started with gas stations ($9 fee, $5 in gas, 5 minute report), Texas Roadhouse ($35 reimbursement, no fee) and Five Guys (fee plus reimbursement for one meal).  You do not want to have a $220 meal at Ruth Chris be your first and the shopping companies won't let you anyway.  A lot of people give up because everyone is slow with reports to start and they don't get the good jobs being new or they don't live in an area with good jobs.  I'm also very anal retentive, keeping track of names and timings is easy for me. 

This year alone besides oil changes and a monthly car wash, I've also gone to the movies with my teen a couple times, gone to the zoo, a painting class place, museums and had dry cleaning paid for.  She got to shop using my credit card at Bloomingdale's online to test how quickly the rewards come through using a card I was paid $500 to open (not including the rewards for opening the card) and take screenshots of the experience.  Lots of grocery stores, my fave is the $40 to spend on the online portal and give an evaluation of how the pick up experience was. I don't do retail shops as I hate malls, but I'll still pick up Aveda's as $20 to spend and a 5 minute report is worth it to me.  And sometimes the retail shops can be good, Pandora doesn't do shops any more but when they did, I managed to get an entire bracelet created for my teen for free and I would never pay for their overpriced bs on my own.  I get emails for resort and hotel shops, but haven't done those and I know of people that travel over seas or do cruise shops.  I just got an email for a $600 payment to talk with Fidelity or Vanguard about my accounts, since I have several questions anyway that I haven't gotten to, it makes sense to take it.  Can you tell I like it??

BUT, you have to start small and you have to not mind writing reports.  Most people don't think it is worth it.  Some people do it full time, I do it to supplement my budget and to me it's a fun hobby.  AND, you have to remember that you need to pay taxes on the fees you get paid, even if it is only $5.  Look at http://www.mysteryshopforum.com/ and PM me if you want.  I can give you a list of companies to sign up for, but can't tell you who has what as I signed confidentiality agreements. 

neo von retorch

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #66 on: December 10, 2016, 07:44:10 AM »
Is this unsolvable? YES.

Is it your wife's fault? NO!

You asked for advice. We gave you advice like figuring out what motivates your wife, what would make her happy, and how you two can grow together. You came back with ways to trick and manipulate your wife.

If you ever decide you want to do something that makes your wife happy, instead of only getting your own way and throwing tantrums and being passive-aggressive, you'll start to solve some problems.

Kansas Terri

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #67 on: December 10, 2016, 08:12:32 AM »

Which path would you take? I wonder how hard I can pull before the strong breaks?
ChpBstd, 18 years ago I sat in the cold and the dark and I thought "This is stupid". Mother nature and dropped 2.5 inches of freezing rain on our heads, and all of the power lines were down. Some areas did not get power back for 2 weeks: ours came on after 3 days.

The results were that I became a prepper, and my husband did not. Not then, anyways. Well it is a myth that married people need to agree on all of the important things, though some disagreements take more work than others. I agreed to stay on a budget, and he agreed that since I was running the house that I could do what I thought was important, as long as I stayed within a budget. 

So I have money and he has money, and he does what he wishes with his "allowance" and I prep with mine, and NEITHER of us can criticize what the other does with their money. I highly recommend this approach: your wife earns half of the money if she works, she makes it possible for you to earn more and spend less if she doe not work outside the home, AND SHE SHOULD HAVE HALF THE SAY AS TO HOW IT IS SPENT!

I recommend that you give your wife a separate checking account, no questions asked as to what she does with it. She works hard, and she does not have to agree with you on everything. If possible, ^YOU^ take over the household bank account.

You are also going to start cooking more, using frugal recipes. Such as using loss leader meats to make inexpensive meals. I did this to save "prepping" money. Basically, most stores will mark down some meat  to below what they paid for it, to encourage people to shop at their stores. So, if hamburger is on sale for $3.50 a pound, you use it for spaghetti with some Ragu you ALSO bought on sale.  That should get you a dinner for $6 for the entire meal. And your wife will be good with it because you are going to say "I want to cook spaghetti tonight". It is hard to argue with "I want to do work".

I have a small pantry with 99 cent cake mixes, $1.50 jars of Ragu, and other things so that I can cook for very little. And, while your wife might not want loss-leader meats, you can buy them yourself as you are buying for when you cook. And, it will save money if you cook often.

Part of your income is due to your wife's efforts. If I were you, I would compromise on this one. Budget in her spending money, and if she wants to spend it on 3 different black purses that would be her own business. My own husband bought a seldom used telescope, a seldom used case of photography equipment, etc. That is not my business. He bought that and I bought what I thought was important. 

I am also the one who puts money in the savings account. I no longer budget money for prepping, as the prepping now pays for itself and also turns a profit for the household. The pantry saves me quite a bit, and it is a small pantry. It fits in one closet with room to spare for the slow cooker and such (there are also many inexpensive slow cooker recipes)
« Last Edit: December 10, 2016, 08:57:12 AM by Kansas Terri »

Kansas Terri

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #68 on: December 10, 2016, 08:25:06 AM »


My rather rude remaining options are my point of desperation.  Are we saying this is unsolvable?
No. there are ways of saving money you have not used, yet.

If you do not choose to save more, as it WILL kick up the amount of work that you do, would it be so terrible to hit your goals 2 years later?

Zamboni

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #69 on: December 10, 2016, 08:40:18 AM »
How often do you do the grocery shopping and cooking?

Janie

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #70 on: December 10, 2016, 08:59:26 AM »
Increase your earnings.

Zikoris

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #71 on: December 10, 2016, 10:07:46 AM »
Also, OP, if you're looking for more low-hanging fruit that could be easily cut, feel free to post the breakdown of your remaining spending - at 57K, there's probably a lot more you could do.

Indio

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #72 on: December 10, 2016, 10:37:51 AM »
agree with others suggestions about cutting back on eating out by doing some cooking yourself. You don't mentiion if you do the cooking and shopping or not. If your wife wants a night off from cooking and dishes, maybe you can agree to split up he meal planning. Cutting back on food bill will do more for budget than earning another $10k that you will be taxed on. if you don't already do it, splitting the housework will go a long way too. If you decide to separate finances, you don't want her to start charging you for all of the things that she contributes to the household upkeep.
As for etsy, try to find out is she shops to allay boredom or feels that she wants to decorate the house. Getting out of the house on weekends or going for walks in the evening might be a good way to stay away from the temptation. Stopping the shopping email spam is a good way to reduce browsing.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #73 on: December 10, 2016, 11:23:17 AM »
OK, resolved.

I'll "chill" and keep working behind the scenes as the bill payer, financial planner, grocery shopper, half-the-time cook, etc. to maintain our almost 50% savings rate for as long as I can.

The lifestyle keeps trying to inflate though, and without a spouse who is philosophically on board, it's harder to hold back.

I know that with the success we've had so far, my frustration seems petty and unreasonable to those struggling to reach even our level. But consider this: the difference between the status quo (~48% SR) and what I want (70% SR) is the difference between a starter mustachian wanting to save just 20% and their spouse who refuses to save anything. Which 20% is unreasonable? Where is the line of reasonableness?

Eating out 2X a week and shopping at Whole Foods is monetarily the same as your spouse buying a $100k yacht on your would-be FIRE date for cash and sinking it in the lake uninsured. Dollars don't care about our good or bad intentions or our excuses for not saving them, they just go where we let them. Yes, we deserve credit for what we have saved, but the numbers don't care at all.

It does translate to years of work though, and I worry my frustration now might seem mild compared to the final three years of my career, when I will know I'm there for the sake of a bunch of merchandise which by then will be buried in a landfill and a bunch of crappy restaurant meals that long ago became river water.

I was not always the person who wanted a 70% savings rate, but my wife has always been more frugal than average - steady as a rock. She's a treasure for possibly enabling us to retire before 50, even if we won't retire in our 40s. I do appreciate her, despite my inflammatory language online, which is FOR FUN. LAUGH DAMMIT!

I've always been that guy who starts a 5k running as hard as he can and finishes walking. So I'll give it a while, consolidate our pace for a year or so, and try some of the slow-road-to-persuasion methods mentioned in other posts.

Give up though? Not in the long run.

Kansas Terri

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #74 on: December 10, 2016, 11:38:09 AM »
It sounds like you  and your wife complement each other. Basically, that means you have very different skills, and when you work together you can do anything.

That does not mean it is easy to work together, of course!

Another inexpensive meals from my pantry: tuna noodle cassarole. 2 cans of tuna from Aldi's (60 cents each) 2 cans of cream of mushroom soup (60 cents each at Aldi's), and a pound of noodles $1 at Aldi's. Stir in frozen peas.

Do you have an Aldi's in your area?   

Top with 2 handfuls of grated cheese before you put it in the oven, and while it cooks pick up the mess you just made and wipe the counter. This will give you and your family a pleasant meal in a tidy kitchen.

When I was raising kids I loved to eat out because I waited on everybody else's needs, and it was wonderful to sit in a clean place and have other people wait on mine.  If your wife is like I was, it might decrease her desire to eat out if se can do the same thing at home. Not eliminate the desire to eat out, no, but she might desire it less.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2016, 11:40:23 AM by Kansas Terri »

Khaetra

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #75 on: December 10, 2016, 12:48:58 PM »
As someone upthread said, it's a marathon, not a race.  While it's great to save money, you also have to balance it with life.  If eating out, spending more on groceries and buying things for the home is the worst thing you have to complain about, I'd consider yourself lucky.  There's been many times on this board that I seen people dive head-first into 'save at all costs!', only to be extremely miserable and question whether it was worth it or not.  Many times the answer was no.

You also have a kid.  Young now, but the time will come soon enough that they will want to do things, perhaps expensive things.  You'll need to budget for those things too.

Retire-Canada

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #76 on: December 10, 2016, 12:50:02 PM »
I know plenty of couples [myself included] who have separate finances. If you guys are not on the same page about money and FIRE maybe you can look at splitting your $$ at some point along the way and then getting to do what you want with your money. If she wants to spend it and you want to buy ETFs great. That'll let you stop working sooner if it matters to you and she won't feel the pressure to follow your FIRE plan.

Obviously some joint decisions will result in you spending $$ you would have saved and invested, but that's being in a relationship. I am happy on my 20yr old futon mattress I brought to the relationship. My GF wants to buy something fancy. I told her more than a year ago to find what she wants and give me 2 or 3 options I can lay down on and I'll pay 50% even if it's some stupid $2K+ mattress. I don't want to do it, but being able to sleep comfortably is too important to sacrifice for some savings. Ever since I told her that she has stopped complaining and has to this point not bought a new mattress. I think knowing that she can have a new one anytime makes using the old one okay for her. She mentioned wanting a new duvet last week. I think the one we have is fine. I told her the same thing. Buy whatever you want I'll pay half.

Based on our work and financial situations I'll downshift to part-time work 9 years before she retires and be FIRE'd probably 4 or 5 years before she retires. I'm not working an extra 5yrs  just to keep her company at the coal mine. Maybe that makes me a bad partner, but to me that would be STUPID. I will adjust my plans in my free time to accommodate her working as much as possible to compromise, but if like Sol mentioned earlier she insisted I work full-time until I was 65 just because despite having more than enough money to retire with I'd end the relationship. Work is a means to an end if the end is pointless I can't get behind it and suffer for nothing.

Anyway I just wanted to point out there are other ways to setup your finances so that each of has the ability to express their preferences to a greater degree if that matters to you.

Field123

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #77 on: December 10, 2016, 03:40:51 PM »
Thanks all. I also have some potentially passive-aggressive semi-ethical strategies and need some second opinions:

1) HUNGER STRIKE: When we go to a restaurant, occasionally don't order anything. Explain that I'd rather the money to go savings. Lead by example and learn self control simultaneously.

2) BRIBERY: When the wife is about to buy something, offer "If you don't buy that trinket, I'll give you a 20 minute back massage tonight." And that's how you work for your spouse at $100/hour. The risk is that more trinkets are considered in exchange for more back rubs.

3) COMPETITIVE EXTORTION & SHAMING: Separate my and her credit card accounts. Pay for household necessities only from a third account. Watch who spends more on themselves.

4) CUT LOOSE: Un-merge our finances. Contribute half and half to a shared household expense account. If we as a couple need $1.5M to retire, either of us can retire as soon as we individually have saved $750k. The risk being that the deal might not be upheld after the first one hits their number.

Too far?

This guy is clearly trolling us.

If these are really your strategies, I hope your wife does divorce you. She would be better off. Who in their right mind would want to FIRE with someone who thinks this way.

Ann

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #78 on: December 10, 2016, 09:14:15 PM »
....Eating out 2X a week and shopping at Whole Foods is monetarily the same as your spouse buying a $100k yacht on your would-be FIRE date for cash and sinking it in the lake uninsured. Dollars don't care about our good or bad intentions or our excuses for not saving them, they just go where we let them. .....

I was not always the person who wanted a 70% savings rate, but my wife has always been more frugal than average

I think you need to change your perspective.  Instead of thinking of how much "time" your wife is costing you by not immediately acquiescing to all your proposed changes, think of all the time she saved you by being frugal for years.

Think of how far behind you would be if she died, and you didn't have a second income and had to raise your child by yourself.  When would you retire then?

It sounds like your wife has put you in a better position than you would be alone, and yet you are fixating on how different life is from an imaginary ideal you created.

Today your house did not burn down.  This month your wife earned a paycheck.  This year your child was not diagnosed with an expensive, life-long crippling medical condition.  (I hope all these are true!).  Try to run your mental calculations on some of the ways your life is BETTER than it could have turned out in a different world.

milliemchi

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #79 on: December 10, 2016, 09:59:11 PM »
Oh, god, I don't have time to read all the responses, but, seriously, LAY OFF! You are not reasonable, and if you sound anything like this in real life, you are never going to get buy-in. You cannot push your way into a future that you want. Others have to collaborate, and you cannot make anyone do anything they don't want to do.

Actually, I think that's the main point you seem to be missing. You cannot control the actions of others. It used to be hard-won wisdom, but now it is taught to children. You should know this. Compromise, not because that gets you where you want the fastest (and it does), but because that's the only decent way to treat others.

Also, you've only been a member of the cult for 10 months. In a couple of years, you will feel less passionate and more matter-of-fact about it, and it will take the proper level of importance in your life.  Then, you will look back and think "I'm so glad I didn't risk my marriage over a couple of extra years of work."

letired

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #80 on: December 10, 2016, 10:09:18 PM »
I was not always the person who wanted a 70% savings rate, but my wife has always been more frugal than average - steady as a rock. She's a treasure for possibly enabling us to retire before 50, even if we won't retire in our 40s. I do appreciate her, despite my inflammatory language online, which is FOR FUN. LAUGH DAMMIT!

No, because you aren't funny. You sound entirely unhinged. Don't go into writing or comedy. And while I share your values, I'm rooting for your wife to kick you to the curb at this point. She kept you guys on track all these years, BIRTHED YOUR CHILD, has acquiesced to MASSIVE CHANGES over the last 10 months, and now you're whining that the poor woman is reluctant to give up the things she values and the things that bring her joy after her husband went insane?

I know that with the success we've had so far, my frustration seems petty and unreasonable to those struggling to reach even our level. But consider this: the difference between the status quo (~48% SR) and what I want (70% SR) is the difference between a starter mustachian wanting to save just 20% and their spouse who refuses to save anything. Which 20% is unreasonable? Where is the line of reasonableness?

Your frustration is petty and unreasonable. Your 20% is unreasonable. The line of reasonableness is wherever you want it to be, but since you said you didn't want to end up getting divorced, I'm going to go with the line being somewhere in the vicinity of 'my husband went insane and I divorced him when he started completely ignoring me as a human being with thoughts, feelings, and goals of my own and only treated me like a walking paycheck.'

ToTheMoon

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #81 on: December 10, 2016, 10:22:10 PM »
I remember feeling similar feelings to yours when I first discovered this "lifestyle" and my spouse was not interested at all.

Fast-forward a few years, and while we are not FI, we have enough saved that our retirement at a traditional age will be taken care of, and we are making some big changes.  Our kids are 4 & 6, I have returned to work part-time, DH has quit his lucrative but exhausting career, and retrained to do something that he has always been interested in, and that allows him to spend more time at home with his family. 

We could have continued to put our nose to the grindstone for a few more years, and then fully FIRED, but at what expense to our marriage and our kids childhoods?  When we stepped back and realised that we have already put ourselves in a good position (compared to the general population - not MMMers,) that gave us choices that most people do not have.  Congratulate yourselves on how well you have done without "knowing the MMM way," and recognise that you have put yourself in a place where you have choices.  Who says you need to work 10 more years in your cube?  Maybe it is time to find a new source of income that brings you more happiness, and allows you to spend more time (re)building relationships with your family.  Let the dollars you have saved do their thing, take a breath, talk to your wife about how she sees your future together, then get out there and make it happen - together.

Hope that came out clearly enough - I am not much of a writer.

katscratch

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #82 on: December 10, 2016, 10:38:25 PM »
No, because you aren't funny. You sound entirely unhinged. Don't go into writing or comedy. And while I share your values, I'm rooting for your wife to kick you to the curb at this point. She kept you guys on track all these years, BIRTHED YOUR CHILD, has acquiesced to MASSIVE CHANGES over the last 10 months, and now you're whining that the poor woman is reluctant to give up the things she values and the things that bring her joy after her husband went insane?

Your frustration is petty and unreasonable. Your 20% is unreasonable. The line of reasonableness is wherever you want it to be, but since you said you didn't want to end up getting divorced, I'm going to go with the line being somewhere in the vicinity of 'my husband went insane and I divorced him when he started completely ignoring me as a human being with thoughts, feelings, and goals of my own and only treated me like a walking paycheck.'

x 1,000,000 to the power of googolplex

FIRE47

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #83 on: December 11, 2016, 05:51:23 AM »
The issue here is there is no right or wrong answer - as long as you aren't burying yourself in debt and are planning for a safe retirement at 65 everything you do above that is matter of opinion. Just because you found this site doesn't mean your plan is the only valid one.

It took me a few years to reach this point and the kind of talk and message that is on this site can really spook some people if you come across too strong and don't build up to it slowly.


« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 05:53:25 AM by FIRE47 »

Villanelle

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #84 on: December 11, 2016, 06:21:35 AM »
Let's look at your creative ideas and see how you'd feel about them if your wife implemented similar strategies to get you to loosen up the purse strings a bit. 

Thanks all. I also have some potentially passive-aggressive semi-ethical strategies and need some second opinions:

1) Restaurant Double Down: When you go to a restaurant, occasionally order the most expensive things on the menu, including expensive cocktails and multiple courses. Explain that she'd rather live a bit now than spend every moment worrying about making even more cuts when so many changes have already been implemented. Lead by example, showing you that hyper focus-on finances takes away from life and the health of your relationship.

2) BRIBERY: When the wife wants to buy something and you balk, she offers you back rubs or sex.  "If you allow me to spend that money, I'll give you a 20 minute back massage [or whatever] tonight." And that's how you work for your spouse at $100/hour. The risk is that more purchases will be refused in order to exchange them for more "back rubs".

3) COMPETITIVE EXTORTION & SHAMING: Separate my and her household duties and become excessively nitpicky over even the slightest extravagance on your part.  Unless you are eating the cheapest beans and rice for every meal, you'll have the expense judged and thrown in your face, for not being willing to make more cuts while asking it of her.

4) CUT LOOSE: Un-merge our finances. And by "un-merge", I mean, "... by decree of the courts...".  If each of you is to work toward separate goals with separate finances and separate retirement dates, that sounds not too far from just separate lives, especially when it isn't what both of you want.

Imagine those things happening in your marriage.  How would you feel about your wife?  Would you feel manipulated, disrespected, and perhaps even as though you were being treated with contempt? 

tanzee

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #85 on: December 11, 2016, 12:24:17 PM »
OK, resolved.

I'll "chill" and keep working behind the scenes as the bill payer, financial planner, grocery shopper, half-the-time cook, etc. to maintain our almost 50% savings rate for as long as I can.

The lifestyle keeps trying to inflate though, and without a spouse who is philosophically on board, it's harder to hold back.

I know that with the success we've had so far, my frustration seems petty and unreasonable to those struggling to reach even our level. But consider this: the difference between the status quo (~48% SR) and what I want (70% SR) is the difference between a starter mustachian wanting to save just 20% and their spouse who refuses to save anything. Which 20% is unreasonable? Where is the line of reasonableness?

Eating out 2X a week and shopping at Whole Foods is monetarily the same as your spouse buying a $100k yacht on your would-be FIRE date for cash and sinking it in the lake uninsured. Dollars don't care about our good or bad intentions or our excuses for not saving them, they just go where we let them. Yes, we deserve credit for what we have saved, but the numbers don't care at all.

It does translate to years of work though, and I worry my frustration now might seem mild compared to the final three years of my career, when I will know I'm there for the sake of a bunch of merchandise which by then will be buried in a landfill and a bunch of crappy restaurant meals that long ago became river water.

I was not always the person who wanted a 70% savings rate, but my wife has always been more frugal than average - steady as a rock. She's a treasure for possibly enabling us to retire before 50, even if we won't retire in our 40s. I do appreciate her, despite my inflammatory language online, which is FOR FUN. LAUGH DAMMIT!

I've always been that guy who starts a 5k running as hard as he can and finishes walking. So I'll give it a while, consolidate our pace for a year or so, and try some of the slow-road-to-persuasion methods mentioned in other posts.

Give up though? Not in the long run.

Good Lord!  Is this a humorless bunch, or what?  I was laughing all the way.  Your humorous passive aggressive suggestions were met with a torrent of misdirected outrage.  I feel for you, buddy. 

tanzee

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #86 on: December 11, 2016, 12:26:46 PM »
Thanks all. I also have some potentially passive-aggressive semi-ethical strategies and need some second opinions:

1) HUNGER STRIKE: When we go to a restaurant, occasionally don't order anything. Explain that I'd rather the money to go savings. Lead by example and learn self control simultaneously.

2) BRIBERY: When the wife is about to buy something, offer "If you don't buy that trinket, I'll give you a 20 minute back massage tonight." And that's how you work for your spouse at $100/hour. The risk is that more trinkets are considered in exchange for more back rubs.

3) COMPETITIVE EXTORTION & SHAMING: Separate my and her credit card accounts. Pay for household necessities only from a third account. Watch who spends more on themselves.

4) CUT LOOSE: Un-merge our finances. Contribute half and half to a shared household expense account. If we as a couple need $1.5M to retire, either of us can retire as soon as we individually have saved $750k. The risk being that the deal might not be upheld after the first one hits their number.

Too far?

This guy is clearly trolling us.

If these are really your strategies, I hope your wife does divorce you. She would be better off. Who in their right mind would want to FIRE with someone who thinks this way.

It's not trolling, it's just dark humor.  And I am very much in favor of dark humor. 

tanzee

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #87 on: December 11, 2016, 12:30:34 PM »
No, because you aren't funny. You sound entirely unhinged. Don't go into writing or comedy. And while I share your values, I'm rooting for your wife to kick you to the curb at this point. She kept you guys on track all these years, BIRTHED YOUR CHILD, has acquiesced to MASSIVE CHANGES over the last 10 months, and now you're whining that the poor woman is reluctant to give up the things she values and the things that bring her joy after her husband went insane?

Your frustration is petty and unreasonable. Your 20% is unreasonable. The line of reasonableness is wherever you want it to be, but since you said you didn't want to end up getting divorced, I'm going to go with the line being somewhere in the vicinity of 'my husband went insane and I divorced him when he started completely ignoring me as a human being with thoughts, feelings, and goals of my own and only treated me like a walking paycheck.'

x 1,000,000 to the power of googolplex

Cheap Bastard, pay no mind.  These folks need to watch some Bill Hicks/George Carlin/Louis CK/Bill Burr and have a stiff drink.  Life isn't all rainbows and kittens.  Might as well laugh about it.  Touchy crowd. 

Sailor Sam

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #88 on: December 11, 2016, 02:52:06 PM »
No, because you aren't funny. You sound entirely unhinged. Don't go into writing or comedy. And while I share your values, I'm rooting for your wife to kick you to the curb at this point. She kept you guys on track all these years, BIRTHED YOUR CHILD, has acquiesced to MASSIVE CHANGES over the last 10 months, and now you're whining that the poor woman is reluctant to give up the things she values and the things that bring her joy after her husband went insane?

Your frustration is petty and unreasonable. Your 20% is unreasonable. The line of reasonableness is wherever you want it to be, but since you said you didn't want to end up getting divorced, I'm going to go with the line being somewhere in the vicinity of 'my husband went insane and I divorced him when he started completely ignoring me as a human being with thoughts, feelings, and goals of my own and only treated me like a walking paycheck.'

x 1,000,000 to the power of googolplex

Cheap Bastard, pay no mind.  These folks need to watch some Bill Hicks/George Carlin/Louis CK/Bill Burr and have a stiff drink.  Life isn't all rainbows and kittens.  Might as well laugh about it.  Touchy crowd.

Meh. I'm a wicked funny guy, and I don't accomplish it by pilloring my wife on a hugely public forum. So ChpBstrd, if your wife found this, would she be surprised or upset? If no, carry on, and maybe get her to chime in. If yes, then you probably shouldn't be doing it, eh.

trashmanz

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #89 on: December 11, 2016, 03:12:08 PM »
If you spent all this excess energy towards working on how to make more $$$ you might be surprised at the results.  I can't believe anyone who says its not possible to make more money.

letired

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #90 on: December 11, 2016, 03:50:12 PM »
No, because you aren't funny. You sound entirely unhinged. Don't go into writing or comedy. And while I share your values, I'm rooting for your wife to kick you to the curb at this point. She kept you guys on track all these years, BIRTHED YOUR CHILD, has acquiesced to MASSIVE CHANGES over the last 10 months, and now you're whining that the poor woman is reluctant to give up the things she values and the things that bring her joy after her husband went insane?

Your frustration is petty and unreasonable. Your 20% is unreasonable. The line of reasonableness is wherever you want it to be, but since you said you didn't want to end up getting divorced, I'm going to go with the line being somewhere in the vicinity of 'my husband went insane and I divorced him when he started completely ignoring me as a human being with thoughts, feelings, and goals of my own and only treated me like a walking paycheck.'

x 1,000,000 to the power of googolplex

Cheap Bastard, pay no mind.  These folks need to watch some Bill Hicks/George Carlin/Louis CK/Bill Burr and have a stiff drink.  Life isn't all rainbows and kittens.  Might as well laugh about it.  Touchy crowd.

It's true, I am entirely devoid of a sense of humor, especially when it comes to men shitting on their wives. I'm just sensitive that way. \_(ツ)_/

QueenV

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #91 on: December 11, 2016, 03:54:46 PM »
I know that with the success we've had so far, my frustration seems petty and unreasonable to those struggling to reach even our level. But consider this: the difference between the status quo (~48% SR) and what I want (70% SR) is the difference between a starter mustachian wanting to save just 20% and their spouse who refuses to save anything. Which 20% is unreasonable? Where is the line of reasonableness?

The difference in a 0% vs 20% savings rate is the difference between never retiring ever and retiring in your 60's.  The difference in a 48% vs 70% savings rate is the difference in early retiring in 12-14 years or 10 years.  Do you really not see how those are different? Also, a 48%  SR is only status quo here, it's an incredible rate for most of America.

To answer your question, it's your 20% that's unreasonable, at least from your wife's perspective.

It does translate to years of work though, and I worry my frustration now might seem mild compared to the final three years of my career, when I will know I'm there for the sake of a bunch of merchandise which by then will be buried in a landfill and a bunch of crappy restaurant meals that long ago became river water.

Any chance you could view those extra years as a gift you're giving your wife because you love her unconditionally, not because she owes you something?

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #92 on: December 11, 2016, 04:27:04 PM »
You say you cook half the time, does that include washing up after?  And when you do the grocery shopping half the time, do you go to Whole Foods because thats what your wife likes, or do you go to the cheap place?

You say youve done everything YOU can do, but you can take over the other half of the cooking  (as long as it includes dishes after) and all the shopping.

If your wife wants to go out, and you have a hot meal waiting in the crockpot, theres no way shes gonna turn you down. 

Also you have a 2 year old.  Toddlers are fucking hard.  Wait til the kid is 4 and life is gonna feel so much better.

Also, you say you've done everything you can do, but do you ride a bike to work?

Case Study, Case study, Case study!  And please delineate in the study which things are your wants and which are your wife's.  (Totally hypothetical example: let's say you both need internet, but you need high-speed internet for work, then note that).

YummyRaisins

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #93 on: December 11, 2016, 04:55:30 PM »
No, because you aren't funny. You sound entirely unhinged. Don't go into writing or comedy. And while I share your values, I'm rooting for your wife to kick you to the curb at this point. She kept you guys on track all these years, BIRTHED YOUR CHILD, has acquiesced to MASSIVE CHANGES over the last 10 months, and now you're whining that the poor woman is reluctant to give up the things she values and the things that bring her joy after her husband went insane?

Your frustration is petty and unreasonable. Your 20% is unreasonable. The line of reasonableness is wherever you want it to be, but since you said you didn't want to end up getting divorced, I'm going to go with the line being somewhere in the vicinity of 'my husband went insane and I divorced him when he started completely ignoring me as a human being with thoughts, feelings, and goals of my own and only treated me like a walking paycheck.'

x 1,000,000 to the power of googolplex

Cheap Bastard, pay no mind.  These folks need to watch some Bill Hicks/George Carlin/Louis CK/Bill Burr and have a stiff drink.  Life isn't all rainbows and kittens.  Might as well laugh about it.  Touchy crowd.

Text is a terrible medium for sarcasm, especially when your audience thought you were being earnest...

Blonde Lawyer

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #94 on: December 11, 2016, 06:34:25 PM »
Cheap Bastard - it sounds like you really despise your job and your beige cubical.  We've all been there.  Until you can reach FI, could you move to a job you actually enjoy? This might include going down a notch in pay for more enjoyment.  Personally, I'd rather work 10 years at a job I really like than 6 years at a job I really hate. You could also look into semi retired life for those final years.  Get a part time job doing something you really enjoy that is nothing like your current career.  I'd work at a doggy daycare for example.

Malum Prohibitum - I'm not trying to start a fight and really appreciate your honesty on this board.  I'm just curious, where does this come from?

Quote
"I am unlike most on here.  Old fashioned.  Patriarchal.  Woman should be submissive to the man, and all that (something with which my wife agrees and even sometimes gets on to me about if I falter)"

Is it religious? Cultural? Do you believe women can be smarter than men but should defer anyway? Really, just curious.  I love to learn about other ways of life.  I'm from a very liberal area and have a pretty gender non-conforming marriage.  I (the wife) make more and work a higher status job than my husband.  He does all the cooking, shopping and cleaning.  It really works for us.  I'm curious what part of that you would disapprove of.  I have a good friend that converted to Southern Baptist for a girl he married.  His religion believes as you believe.  He explained it as you can never have two people in charge and it is just easier to have a rule of who defers.  I prefer we take turns.

ETA: I 100% believe my husband is my equal if not smarter than me.  We just ended up in different careers.  He works hard at his and excels too.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 06:36:00 PM by Blonde Lawyer »

ChpBstrd

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #95 on: December 11, 2016, 08:25:37 PM »
It sounds like you  and your wife complement each other. Basically, that means you have very different skills, and when you work together you can do anything.

That does not mean it is easy to work together, of course!

Another inexpensive meals from my pantry: tuna noodle cassarole. 2 cans of tuna from Aldi's (60 cents each) 2 cans of cream of mushroom soup (60 cents each at Aldi's), and a pound of noodles $1 at Aldi's. Stir in frozen peas.

Do you have an Aldi's in your area?   

Top with 2 handfuls of grated cheese before you put it in the oven, and while it cooks pick up the mess you just made and wipe the counter. This will give you and your family a pleasant meal in a tidy kitchen.

When I was raising kids I loved to eat out because I waited on everybody else's needs, and it was wonderful to sit in a clean place and have other people wait on mine.  If your wife is like I was, it might decrease her desire to eat out if se can do the same thing at home. Not eliminate the desire to eat out, no, but she might desire it less.

I wish we had Aldi, or Costco. But no such luck. Kroger and Wal-Mart are the grocery duopoly in my town.

I love your recipie,  and have given a similar recipie a shot, but the wife is finicky and gluten-intolerant. I have a brocholli-rice-cheese casserole that costs about $8 to make (with GF mushroom soup) and yields six whole meals. 2 cans cream of mush.2 cups shredded cheese. 1 bag defrosted brocholli. 2 cups rice. Stir and microwave. Optionally broil for 4 minutes afterwards for a crispy top. A few more recipies like yours and this one and we'll be doing well.

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #96 on: December 11, 2016, 08:36:17 PM »

I love your recipie,  and have given a similar recipie a shot, but the wife is finicky and gluten-intolerant. I have a brocholli-rice-cheese casserole that costs about $8 to make (with GF mushroom soup) and yields six whole meals. 2 cans cream of mush.2 cups shredded cheese. 1 bag defrosted brocholli. 2 cups rice. Stir and microwave. Optionally broil for 4 minutes afterwards for a crispy top. A few more recipies like yours and this one and we'll be doing well.

You can make that even cheaper by learning to make a simple white sauce to substitute for the mushroom soup.  It is traditionally thickened with flour, but I'm pretty sure there are GF recipes available.

Do you have a Kroger rewards card and, if so, do you get their digital coupons?   I don't know if I'm in some kind of experiemental pilot, or what, but I noticed that this fall they started having a LOT more digital coupons for their house brand items, and they seem to reload certain categories almost as soon as I use them or the previous ones expire.  And sometimes you can combine those discounts with the weekly flyer paper coupons as well.  Great for stocking up on things like canned tomatoes and beans (the latter usually cheaper if you buy in bulk, cook ahead and freeze -- but $.50/can is not bad for a quick meal).  Also, you can really rack up the gas points if you watch for their specials like 4x points on gift cards.  I bought a bunch of Tmobile cards, which I can use to pay my DD's cell bill, and got both the CC points and the gas points that way.

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #97 on: December 11, 2016, 08:38:57 PM »

I love your recipie,  and have given a similar recipie a shot, but the wife is finicky and gluten-intolerant. I have a brocholli-rice-cheese casserole that costs about $8 to make (with GF mushroom soup) and yields six whole meals. 2 cans cream of mush.2 cups shredded cheese. 1 bag defrosted brocholli. 2 cups rice. Stir and microwave. Optionally broil for 4 minutes afterwards for a crispy top. A few more recipies like yours and this one and we'll be doing well.

You can make that even cheaper by learning to make a simple white sauce to substitute for the mushroom soup.  It is traditionally thickened with flour, but I'm pretty sure there are GF recipes available.


Good point. I use rice flour (also gluten-intolerant) for cream soups and it works fine.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #98 on: December 11, 2016, 09:01:46 PM »

I get that you're primarily venting here so your words are perhaps not as balanced as you actually think and feel about your marriage and long-term goals within your relationship.  My reaction to your blatant disrespect aside, I do think that you should not just stop "pushing" FIRE on your partner, but stop pushing it on yourself and really take a step back and look at it from an entirely different angle than the financial one. 

If you, as a family, had $5 million in the bank right now, what would you do TOGETHER?  What are your shared dreams?  What are the things you're excited about doing together when you're old and wrinkly and finish each other's stories all the time? 

My worry is that you're using this newfound excitement for the potential of FIRE as a replacement for shared goals.  I truly think you should completely dismiss the idea of FIRE for a month or two and instead put that same enthusiasm into finding frugal activities and hobbies the two of you can enjoy together -- NOT to save you more money, but to start rebuilding mutual interests and mutual respect for one another.

Smart questions. Yes, we lack shared long-term goals. I have never been able to talk with my wife about subjects beyond a couple years out, except perhaps school districts, life insurance, and our parents. She just won't go there.

I ask what she wants 5 years from now and get a blank stare. I, in the other hand, have the whole intended narrative of my life already imagined, and can't remember a time when my horizon of imagination was less than 4 years. Apparently, the wife's plan is the status quo. That's the best I can figure after a decade with her.

In the absence of any goals as a couple, I imagine myself splitting time between my kid and work growing a nonprofit that is dear to me. I also wish for some time to write offensive things on something besides a cell phone. As a couple, I know the wife would enjoy travel. Maybe that's the picture of our future I need to paint for her to sell her on FI.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Wife not on board with FI. WTF...
« Reply #99 on: December 11, 2016, 09:35:06 PM »
No, because you aren't funny. You sound entirely unhinged. Don't go into writing or comedy. And while I share your values, I'm rooting for your wife to kick you to the curb at this point. She kept you guys on track all these years, BIRTHED YOUR CHILD, has acquiesced to MASSIVE CHANGES over the last 10 months, and now you're whining that the poor woman is reluctant to give up the things she values and the things that bring her joy after her husband went insane?

Your frustration is petty and unreasonable. Your 20% is unreasonable. The line of reasonableness is wherever you want it to be, but since you said you didn't want to end up getting divorced, I'm going to go with the line being somewhere in the vicinity of 'my husband went insane and I divorced him when he started completely ignoring me as a human being with thoughts, feelings, and goals of my own and only treated me like a walking paycheck.'

x 1,000,000 to the power of googolplex

Cheap Bastard, pay no mind.  These folks need to watch some Bill Hicks/George Carlin/Louis CK/Bill Burr and have a stiff drink.  Life isn't all rainbows and kittens.  Might as well laugh about it.  Touchy crowd.

Gallows humor is dead. Hyperbole is an alien concept. Laughing at one's own predicament seems insincere in a narcissistic age.

But I will say this. The humor helps you see your own absurdities sometimes. What doom would await us if we were blind to that?