The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: Nick_Miller on February 07, 2019, 06:33:23 AM
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Okay this will probably come off as being a Whinypants post...I acknowledge that.
My wife is turning 40 soon, and I'm in my mid-40s. Since we were married (over 15 years), we've both continuously worked full-time. We have two kiddos, one in late elementary school and one in late middle school. School activities are REALLY picking up for both. For one's sports team alone, our kiddo practiced three nights a week, basically stranding a parent to be close to the school and not getting home until 8. Thankfully, we are getting a break from that soon. But we are still CONSTANTLY leaving work early to pick up kids from stuff, or else taking late afternoon 'lunches' to do that. I don't know how people with rigid job schedules do it.
Long story short, I know my wife is tired of the grind. Hell, I am too. One of us (usually me) gets up at 5:30 each morning to get the oldest up for school, so that sucks. And we'll be doing it for the next 8 years. Ugh.
Our parents are also draining us. Medical issues. Poor financial situations. Divorces. You name it, they have it going on. And they all live near us.
We both want to slow down, but we're nowhere near being able to do that. My projections are that, on our current pace, we should be worth about $500K by end of 2021. About $325K of that would be retirement stache, with the rest cash and home equity. Mortgage should be the only debt by that point.
At that point, we MIGHT be able to move to part-time employment, but man it seems like finding professional-level pay in part-time employment would be tough.
Right now, our jobs compliment each other very well. She gets GREAT benefits (health which covers the whole family) and a very generous profit-sharing with her 401k, and I make a good amount of cash and bonuses.
Has anyone been just burned out, but you know intellectually you have a long way to go? I would LOVE to give my wife a break, but she would still have to bring in SOME income, and she doesn't have any side hussles or anything. She likes working on her Cricut and she likes organizing stuff, but I'm not sure that she would be interesting in starting a home organizing business. I think she'd LOVE to have some flexibility in her schedule and some "me" time. I don't know how to give that to her right now.
Any words of wisdom?
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Maybe working PT for a period would be a good solution for your wife. e.g. 1 day a week off or 1 day every other week off.
Have you looked into hiring an au-pair?
Could you give each other one night a week off, or a couple of hours in daytime? That means one of you has to do everything in the household and caring for the children for that period. But the other one could have some "me" time. Maybe do so on a weekend day?
Could one the divorcing parents help babysitting for some hours in the weekend? To compensate for the extra hassle they give you?
About the children on the sports team. Is there an option to organize transport home between parents of the other children on the team? Is it unsafe for the children to go home themselves with a friend when they reach a certain age?
Most of my colleagues with children have a system where one parents brings the children to school in the morning, starts late at work and goes home late. The other parent starts very early at work, leaves work early and picks up the children from school.
Others just leave early from work every day, but some work from home in the evening to compensate.
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You don't mention specific issues with the jobs, other than the sheer amount of time they require--is there any way to streamline home life to make things easier? That's the area that's really under your and your wife's control.
For instance--would it help to Marie Kondo the heck out of your house so it's easier to keep neat? What kind of chores do the kids do? If they stepped up more, and you added a monthly cleaning service for deep cleaning, would it help? What about simplifying cooking? Nobody will die if they live through a few months of pasta Monday, taco Tuesday, breakfast for dinner Wednesday, etc. Has your family thought through the balance of kid activities that's right for you? I wasn't allowed to do evening activities until I was in high school, for instance.
It's hard to discuss things in the heat of family life--it might be helpful to schedule some couple time (even shipping the kids to someone else's house for a sleepover) to free up some time for thinking and discussion.
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Are you willing to sit down with your wife and actually talk through the scenarios? Run through expenses, how long you have to work still, how you two are feeling...
Then think about scenarios that could help, cutting work down to 4/week per person, taking sabbaticals. Those would increase the time to FIRE (though being the same amount of actual work days) - Or reduce expenses to cover the shortfall.
As the kids get older, you'll be able to push some tasks on them (getting themselves up for school, making food, doing housework) so maybe it's worth taking the time for yourself now, and go a little harder in the future when they are able to help out?
-Sadly, you can see the light at the end of the tunnel, but have very little ability to make it get closer unless you start optimizing expenses. Groceries can be an excellent first stop.
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It sounds like a lot the issues you're having are balancing kids and work. Would one of you stopping paid work to do the stay at home spouse thing be an option? If you could afford that, and the stay at home spouse treats it like a job and takes on most/all of the child/household related tasks that could make continuing to work much more tolerable for the working spouse.
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Been there, done that, and do not underestimate how valuable dropping to part time can be for your sanity and your marriage.
Crunch the numbers together, see if you can start building your best life now. At very least, the exercise will really help the two of you align on exactly what your vision for your life is and where your main priorities should be.
It can be crazy just how many presuppositions you are operating on that you didn't even realize.
Your current situation doesn't sound at all fun or at all sustainable, so consider totally blowing it up. Why not?
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I think you and your wife should focus on making your life more tolerable and forget about maxing out savings for a while. Working PT will cost you svings, but will improve your life.
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I was thinking of posting something very similar recently so just know that you are not alone! We are also similar in our stage of life and how our jobs are complementary - his has the good benefits (health insurance, a good match for his retirement, cheap college for kids), mine has the good pay and flexibility. It makes it very hard for either one of us to quit.
This may sound like it is coming out of left field - but - could the time of year be contributing to your feelings?
A couple of years ago I realized that every February I start to think about quitting my job. You get through Christmas break (which, while magical with kids, is never an actual break) and then you jump right back into the school/winter slog and it is cold and it sucks. I actually wrote myself an email this year (via FutureMe) to remind myself that Feb sucks every year, and to take it easy on myself. For me this usually means letting myself order take out and pay for activities for the kids. I also reminded myself to not make any big decisions. Last year we bought a puppy in February. Stress makes you make bad decisions :) Luckily our puppy is amazing.
I remind myself to hold out for April and sunshine and I always feel better by then.
In the meantime, do you have family nearby that are helpful? If you do, take advantage! If not, I understand, we don't either. I would be the happiest woman on the planet if my husband picked a date on the calendar and told me to take a me day and had a whole plan for what he would do with our kids so I didn't have to worry about it. Can you give your wife one day this month?
Because I am so burned out, I often think I just want to quit my job - but if I'm quite honest with myself, I probably only need a day or two and I would feel a lot better.
If you figure something out - please post it! I'd love to know if you find something helpful.
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I was thinking of posting something very similar recently so just know that you are not alone! We are also similar in our stage of life and how our jobs are complementary - his has the good benefits (health insurance, a good match for his retirement, cheap college for kids), mine has the good pay. It makes it very hard for either one of us to quit.
This may sound like it is coming out of left field - but - could the time of year be contributing to your feelings?
A couple of years ago I realized that every February I start to think about quitting my job. You get through Christmas break (which, while magical with kids, is never an actual break) and then you jump right back into the school/winter slog and it is cold and it sucks. I actually wrote myself an email this year (via FutureMe) to remind myself that Feb sucks every year, and to take it easy on myself. For me this usually means letting myself order take out and pay for activities for the kids. I also reminded myself to not make any big decisions. Last year we bought a puppy in February. Stress makes you make bad decisions :) Luckily our puppy is amazing.
I remind myself to hold out for April and sunshine and I always feel better by then.
In the meantime, do you have family nearby? If you do, take advantage! If not, I understand, we don't either. I would be the happiest woman on the planet if my husband picked a date on the calendar and told me to take a me day and had a whole plan for what he would do with our kids so I didn't have to worry about it. Can you give your wife one day this month?
Because I am so burned out, I often think I just want to quit my job - but if I'm quite honest with myself, I probably only need a day or two and I would feel a lot better.
If you figure something out - please post it! I'd love to know if you find something helpful.
Who not consistently book time off in February or March?
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I was thinking of posting something very similar recently so just know that you are not alone! We are also similar in our stage of life and how our jobs are complementary - his has the good benefits (health insurance, a good match for his retirement, cheap college for kids), mine has the good pay. It makes it very hard for either one of us to quit.
This may sound like it is coming out of left field - but - could the time of year be contributing to your feelings?
A couple of years ago I realized that every February I start to think about quitting my job. You get through Christmas break (which, while magical with kids, is never an actual break) and then you jump right back into the school/winter slog and it is cold and it sucks. I actually wrote myself an email this year (via FutureMe) to remind myself that Feb sucks every year, and to take it easy on myself. For me this usually means letting myself order take out and pay for activities for the kids. I also reminded myself to not make any big decisions. Last year we bought a puppy in February. Stress makes you make bad decisions :) Luckily our puppy is amazing.
I remind myself to hold out for April and sunshine and I always feel better by then.
In the meantime, do you have family nearby? If you do, take advantage! If not, I understand, we don't either. I would be the happiest woman on the planet if my husband picked a date on the calendar and told me to take a me day and had a whole plan for what he would do with our kids so I didn't have to worry about it. Can you give your wife one day this month?
Because I am so burned out, I often think I just want to quit my job - but if I'm quite honest with myself, I probably only need a day or two and I would feel a lot better.
If you figure something out - please post it! I'd love to know if you find something helpful.
Who not consistently book time off in February or March?
Great question! It is something I would love to do but my husband is a professor and I need to save my vacation days to cover kids sick/snow/school closing days. I also have a hard time getting vacation time approved.
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I was thinking of posting something very similar recently so just know that you are not alone! We are also similar in our stage of life and how our jobs are complementary - his has the good benefits (health insurance, a good match for his retirement, cheap college for kids), mine has the good pay. It makes it very hard for either one of us to quit.
This may sound like it is coming out of left field - but - could the time of year be contributing to your feelings?
A couple of years ago I realized that every February I start to think about quitting my job. You get through Christmas break (which, while magical with kids, is never an actual break) and then you jump right back into the school/winter slog and it is cold and it sucks. I actually wrote myself an email this year (via FutureMe) to remind myself that Feb sucks every year, and to take it easy on myself. For me this usually means letting myself order take out and pay for activities for the kids. I also reminded myself to not make any big decisions. Last year we bought a puppy in February. Stress makes you make bad decisions :) Luckily our puppy is amazing.
I remind myself to hold out for April and sunshine and I always feel better by then.
In the meantime, do you have family nearby? If you do, take advantage! If not, I understand, we don't either. I would be the happiest woman on the planet if my husband picked a date on the calendar and told me to take a me day and had a whole plan for what he would do with our kids so I didn't have to worry about it. Can you give your wife one day this month?
Because I am so burned out, I often think I just want to quit my job - but if I'm quite honest with myself, I probably only need a day or two and I would feel a lot better.
If you figure something out - please post it! I'd love to know if you find something helpful.
Who not consistently book time off in February or March?
Great question! It is something I would love to do but my husband is a professor and I need to save my vacation days to cover kids sick/snow/school closing days. I also have a hard time getting vacation time approved.
That also doesn't sound sustainable.
I would be actively looking for opportunities to engineer your life so that you can consistently get time off this time of year.
If you don't have enough vacation days, can you not take unpaid time off? Can you make it clear to your employer than time off this time of year is a priority for you and that you are willing to work with them to make it work?
If it's a consistent problem for you, then there must be a consistent and workable solution if it really would improve your overall well being every year not to go through this phase of fatigue.
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I feel your pain. I have a very low tolerance for pain so the way I handled this similar situation was to first clearly identify what your priorities are, hopefully with the input of your spouse and go from there. Too many kids activities, get creative on how to get them there, ask other parent to car pool where you take their kids Mondays and they take your kids Tuesdays. Get everyone involved and ask you kids to also come up with solutions, one time my kid straight out said I don't love [blank activity] that much so that was cut out of our schedule.
As for the parents, I hate to sound cruel, but it's not your problem. You can be there for moral support but if you can't take Tuesday afternoon off to get them to an appointment let them know, I sure they will figure it out. Another solution is to move away form them as possible and visit once or twice a year, that was a semi-joke (it's what my wife and did).
But seriously slow down spend time with your kids and that doesn't mean driving them around like you're their personal Uber. I grew up very differently from how I'm raising my kids, I had to take a bus for an hour if I wanted to go to martial arts class and stopped when winter came. So I have no qualms about telling my kids no to activities or events that they want to do.
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I guess, as someone above pointed out, you actually haven’t mentioned issues with work and you acknowledge that your wife needs the work for the benefits for the family. So your options there are limited unless you want to change your situation up and get the job that has healthcare, but you’ve been on your own journey for meaningful work.
The issue it seems are managing the kids, and I’m not sure what more you can do except ban the extra curriculars, but how can you reasonably do that?
Solution: facepunch. This is your life and will be for the next 10 years or so and then, when your wife is around 50, you both should probably be able to retire completely. That’s not that bad or that long. It has you getting out of the game 17-20 years before most people. Wow! That’s amazing! What an accomplishment. When you decided to have one kid, then another, you kinda made a pact that it’s no longer about you guys, it’s about the kids. Sometimes, you can’t have it all at once. And you generally can’t have it all without some sacrifice. If you want to cut that 10 year wait down, it might mean making changes to radically bring in more income, that’s really your only other option.
As for the parents, both of you should read the book, Co Dependent No More. You’re not responsible for grown adults and any decision to take on their problems is your choice, not their burden to you. You can chose differently.
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I can relate to this! It is hard to juggle 2 full time jobs and kids. Unless you guys can make the numbers work to either retire, take a large pay cut via part-time employment, or something else, it looks like you're stuck with it.
The suggestion of hiring a nanny/babysitter to do the shuttling to and fro is a good idea. Or find another parent with a kid on the team to split up that duty. It is really unnecessary for parents to be present at practices. At games- ok, maybe you want to be there for those - but not practices.
I'd also look into other jobs. You or your wife might be able to find employment with higher wages, more flexible schedules, or something else more workable. It is also not unheard of for attorneys to take sabbaticals. It's rare (it was more common back in the day) and it tended to happen at larger firms. But maybe one or both of you can take a temporary leave of absence to recharge your batteries?
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I feel your pain. A few years further on here - 2 kids in high school, 5 parents or step-parents between us with various health issues, a sibling with addiction, etc. The folks who say not to let the extended family affect you probably haven't been where you are. I think it's natural to want to assist parents during health crises, if you are able, and if you're talking to them every day it definitely adds to your stress. Our connection with family is very important. Having said all that - if they all live close by, are able-bodied, and need money, can you "hire" one or more of them to drive the kids once or twice a week? Caring's a two-way street.
Full disclosure - I've worked part-time since giving birth, and it's still stressful. I don't know how 2 full-time parents of multiple kids manage without some kind of paid help, or help from family (or without burning out, like you). My vote would be to cut expenses, downsize the house, or re-organize in whatever way is feasible without dropping further into debt, in order to gain back a sense of space and time to breathe. Your kids will thank you because you will be so much nicer to be around.
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I feel your pain too. We are a bit older (late 40's early 50's). Kids early elementary and middle school.
Here's how I cope. When I'm really bummed out ...
I take the time off. I take PTO. I cut out early to do kid stuff. I let stuff slide at home. I run. A LOT. I make sure to get 8+ hours of sleep. I make sure to eat healthfully, exercise regularly, crochet (it's meditative). Sometimes, there are 2-3 months where I'm phoning it in at work (not literally, just doing a mediocre amount).
So, outsourcing. It doesn't help with the $ thing, but it does help with the stress thing. What can you outsource? We have outsourced cleaning and half the grocery shopping. We have outsourced some cooking (Friday night is always frozen pizza. Weds is always chicken fingers.)
Activities: my kids don't do much. Big kid did 3 years of baseball and quit. It's glorious! Spouse asked if we should sign up 1st grader. WTF NO!! he's not interested, and neither am I if you expect me to take him to practice 3x a week. So, my kid activities: Kid 1 still plays flute, once per week for 2 hours, and practices at home. No sports. He's got daily PE and goes for bike rides on weekends. Kid 2 loves swimming. We take him to the pool 1-2x a week.
An alternative, if your kids really dig their activities, is to hire someone to do that for you. Or, if you'd rather do that job, then outsource something else, like cooking. To be honest, it got to the point for sports where only one of us would go to games, and for practices - we'd drop him off and go back in 2 hours.
I also cut my hours when the kids were very little, so that may be an option if your workplaces are open to it. Even working from home here and there can be helpful.
Also: vacation time. For me, I need time off every 3 months. At least a long weekend. President's day weekend, spring break in March, are a given. I usually feel refreshed after that.
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You have divorced parents. Surely one of them has beef enough with the other to want to be the "good" grandparent and take your kid to their activities. Casually mention that you need help and you were thinking of asking a grandparent and jeez that ex of theirs isn;t that involved in your kid's life. You could end up with all of them driving!!
I feel your pain. We are a 2 worker family now since Jan 1 after 11 years of having a SAHP at home. It's been rough. My job is demanding and unpredictable. I take call and I never know when I will be home or not. Oldest kid is kind of old enough (although not responsible enough) to be at home with the other 2 for an hour or two in the afternoons. But it's required a ton of adjusting on everyone's part and I've been trying to manage our now really crazy combined schedules, multiple dr appts, and keep it all from falling apart. I had it the other day when they cancelled school for weather and we had no childcare to help and pretty much told my DH he had to help organize or none of us were going to survive.
I'm not sure what the solution is other than take solace in the fact that most families are struggling like this? I feel embarrassed almost that I've not had to deal with this until now and had no idea how much of a hassle it was for others. We don't have a single family member within 1000 miles of us. My kid's medical conditions kind of tie us here so I don't see that improving any time soon either. Eventually they will grow up, my stashe will grow then I'll be old and worn out and retire and die.
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Thanks for the very gentle and empathetic responses! (I think I only got one face punch?)
Short-term, I think things will get better now that my oldest's sports season is winding down. We'll have a much easier next seven months before it ramps up again in the fall. That will help some.
And generally speaking, we run a peaceful and efficient household. Kids help with things like yard, dishes, garbage, cleaning up after dinner, sweeping/vacuuming, etc. They do a pretty good job, too. We have a cleaning service come in once per month for the heavy cleaning stuff.
It's mostly just the grind. Like I said, for the past 4-5 months, for one of us it's been: get up at 5:30 and not get home until around 8:00 at night. That sucks. By the time the kids are in bed, that gives us like 60 minutes or less to be together before bed. Weekends are obviously a lot better.
I don't think this is seasonal (other than the sports schedule stuff). Winter has been very mild and I've already noticed more daylight after work hours.
I think we are just both tired of commuting (about 20 minutes each way for each of us, so not horrible) and spending 9 hours a day in offices. It's that simple. People might say, "That's life," but that doesn't stop it from being a grind. Plus, I am trying to get my writing side hussle off the ground, which requires at least 10 hours per week (and really I need to put more than that into it).
I think when we hit $500K NW, we will have more options. My wife and I talked last night for a bit, and we're on the same page. I don't want to count on certain % of returns in a short period of time, but once we get our stache into the $300Ks, I feel like it will hopefully start doing more of the heavy lifting growthwise.
We are not super frugal, but we're not huge spenders either. We like to read and take walks and watch stuff on Netflix. I like to write. Our mortgage is reasonable ($900), and both of our cars will be paid off in May. We have no credit card debt. If we retired early, our biggest expenses would be mortgage and health care, which is the real issue. We are in our forever home, and we'll let the kids stay here during college.
I don't want to "Fast Forward" the next 7.5 years while both kiddos are in public school. We want to have a good, balanced life. If we could even just each work 30 hours per week (maybe three 8s, and one 6 where we leave at 3PM) that would be perfect. But I probably wouldn't earn any bonuses then, and my salary would go down. And my wife wouldn't be eligible for health insurance as a part-time worker, so that just seems like a non-starter.
Again, I appreciate all the empathy.
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I'd like to gently point out that your reasonable mortgage is more money than the average american makes in 20 years. :D
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I'd like to gently point out that your reasonable mortgage is more money than the average american makes in 20 years. :D
No no no lol I was quoting our MONTHLY payment of $900. Our overall mortgage debt is about $120,000. We have about $80K in equity, it's worth about $200K
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For what it is worth, you are also near the bottom of the Happiness U Curve:
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/may/05/happiness-curve-life-gets-better-after-50-jonathan-rauch
So you are about to start an upswing :)
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I'd like to gently point out that your reasonable mortgage is more money than the average american makes in 20 years. :D
No no no lol I was quoting our MONTHLY payment of $900. Our overall mortgage debt is about $120,000. We have about $80K in equity, it's worth about $200K
Thank god, I had so many questions about your FIRE at 500k+ and a mortgage for 900k.
Samsies on housing! (or close enough)
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It's mostly just the grind. Like I said, for the past 4-5 months, for one of us it's been: get up at 5:30 and not get home until around 8:00 at night. That sucks. By the time the kids are in bed, that gives us like 60 minutes or less to be together before bed. Weekends are obviously a lot better.
Yeah, this is sucky.
My company you are eligible for benefits if you are > 30 hours a week. Might be worth it to check on that.
We've definitely had months on end where we are essentially roommates. We get zero adult time together at night. I go to sleep before the kids, and 2 hours before husband. Then he travels, gets sick, works late etc. It takes effort to pull ourselves out of that and go for a lunch date or a walk now and then, to reconnect. Or just have a morning where I'm not up and out at 5 am to go to the gym.
But it's obv worth the effort.
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Given what you've said about your schedules, I really suggest that either or both of you look for other jobs. Maybe you'll find something or maybe not, but it's worth a shot. Working from 5:30am - 8pm day in and day out is HORRIBLE. I'm an attorney too and, unless I'm in trial which comes around only a few times a year, I never work hours like that and I would definitely prefer a cut in salary to avoid those hours.
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Consider giving the children more responsibility. A seven or eighth grader can be responsible for 1-getting up on time, 2-making a lunch the night before if it is needed, and 3-cooking dinner one night a week. My daughter called me from her first week of college to tell me that in jr high and high school she just assumed all kids did laundry, since she did. At college she was teaching others how to do it.
When the driving to sports is 3x per week, consider hiring a responsible young adult to do it. Several of my students (in graduate level professional school) have such jobs. They drive the kids where they need to go and sit and study while the activity is happening. Since they don’t have to actively babysit, they are willing to do it for fairly modest pay.
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I feel your pain. Its tough to be on the right path but so far away from the point where all your hard work comes to fruition! Plus it sucks to slog through the week for a few hours of peace on the weekend.
The only thing that I've found helps is making time for my passion - I get up at 430am a few times a week to indulge in the martial art I love. Its expensive and I spend a lot of time black and blue, but injecting a little bit of my passion into my weeks makes it more bearable. Without it, I'm still exhausted throughout the week anyway, so I figured, why not?
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Another +1 on carpooling or dropping activities.
I'm a SAHP (was WAHP, quit) but I hear you on kid activities and needy parents. One day about three years ago I realized I had spent 5 hours in the car just driving kids around. It was insane (and supremely anti-Mustachian). I did some hard thinking and the next year, I had my oldest son drop a couple of activities, and I also haven't been scheduling the younger kids in much at all.
My son was not happy about losing music lessons, but on the other hand, he didn't practice that much, so I think it was a fair decision. We've been talking on and off about starting again, but he has packed his schedule so much with after school sports etc (which are free and walkable) that I don't know how music would fit. I was also very happy to see travel soccer go, though we carpooled so much that we only saw a couple games a season.
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It is time to rethink your entire lifestyle. If time is what you are after then do what is needed to get that time.
You need to pull your bank accounts and figure out where you could cut cost wise. I am willing to bet the tax cost alone of one of you working will be pretty high. Then you have commute costs, clothing costs, the I am tired I am picking up coffee or dinner on the way home, the I do not have time so I pay someone to clean my house, I can buy the prechopped veggies from the store, I do not have time so I buy canned beans and quick rice....etc I can go on forever with this concept.
My point being when both parents are working the costs are crazy high. Just like I do not have to buy as many clothes because I am at home and I can do a load of wash as needed. My kid has 12 outfits total. She does not need more. She is 8 and likes to not be overwhelmed by choice. I do buy more toilet paper since I am home. So keep that in mind.
When there is a will there most likely a way. Even if that is big things like going down to one car, changes housing etc. You and your wife need to look at the entire picture not just the $ at the end of the month. I can tell you when hubby and I ran the numbers like above we were in the hole ($3600) a year. We decided I was going to stay at home with the kid who is now 8 and support our life and his career and it has been amazing...hard but amazing.
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It is time to rethink your entire lifestyle. If time is what you are after then do what is needed to get that time.
You need to pull your bank accounts and figure out where you could cut cost wise. I am willing to bet the tax cost alone of one of you working will be pretty high. Then you have commute costs, clothing costs, the I am tired I am picking up coffee or dinner on the way home, the I do not have time so I pay someone to clean my house, I can buy the prechopped veggies from the store, I do not have time so I buy canned beans and quick rice....etc I can go on forever with this concept.
My point being when both parents are working the costs are crazy high. Just like I do not have to buy as many clothes because I am at home and I can do a load of wash as needed. My kid has 12 outfits total. She does not need more. She is 8 and likes to not be overwhelmed by choice. I do buy more toilet paper since I am home. So keep that in mind.
When there is a will there most likely a way. Even if that is big things like going down to one car, changes housing etc. You and your wife need to look at the entire picture not just the $ at the end of the month. I can tell you when hubby and I ran the numbers like above we were in the hole ($3600) a year. We decided I was going to stay at home with the kid who is now 8 and support our life and his career and it has been amazing...hard but amazing.
Bingo.
I always like to remind people that money isn't actually anything in and of itself. Alone, it is utterly meaningless.
Money is actually a representation of time and energy and doesn't have a constant relationship with either. Each changes in terms of relative importance depending on how much you have available to you.
Some days, when you are absolutely exhausted, you would happily hand over more money that you are being paid in order to not be at work.
The relationship is fluid and only you can decide how to define it, and what trades are worth making.
A good Mustachian isn't someone who maximizes the money ratio, a good Mustachian learns how to make every single time/energy/money trade off a good deal.
You are burning out because you are making BAD TRADES. once you start having a better understanding of the trade off values of different time/energy, you will be much better equipped to make better trades.
For example, for most people, the bottom 30 hours of a work week are a pretty solid trade for their functional hourly rate of pay. Every 5 hour increment above that becomes more and more expensive in terms of trade off, so the relative value of that income drops precipitously. Therefore, a 50-60hr work week is typically a bad trade for most.
Likewise, almost everyone naturally understands the premium on the value of weekend hours, and won't agree to work then without a substantial pay off. It's the same concept.
Re-examine your valuations, adjust your exchanges accordingly. Your valuation system is CLEARLY out of whack.
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We are in a fairly similar place. The main difference is that I just went back to FT work 2 years ago. So I have before and after data :)
For us we spent about 4k with just my H working, and 6-7k now. The costs of convenience are high. I love my job and make enough that our higher spend is well worth it. But maybe it isn't for you.
That said, consider dropping activities. Your kids will be fine. Or put out an email to the team and say Jr. Can only play next year if someone can help with the driving. We had a kid almost quit boy scouts and a SAHM in the group volunteered to drive him home from every meeting, so his parents just have to drop him off and not stay.
Also, with the I'll parents, it's ok to have boundaries! Or figure out time savers- call them every day as you drive to or from work. Force the issue of them moving if household maintenance is an issue. Etc.
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We were in a similar place about 3 years ago when our son was in 4th grade. The activities, school holidays, volunteer commitments, and general chaos of raising kids was killing us. For what it’s worth, here’s what we did.
My husband found a new job that gave him a raise.
I saw my opportunity and quit my high-paying tech job.
I spent about 6 months at home. It was glorious. But eventually, I got slightly bored and found a part time job at a 90% pay cut. But it got me out of the house about 20 hours a week.
During this time of limited cash flow, I adopted the policy of “I’m not paying to fight about going to activities. I can argue with my family for free.” We cut all activities that didn’t bring us joy. (No more baseball. No more Kumon. No more after school programs and camps that we don’t like.) Our boy now does band at school and flag football 2 days per week. That’s it. It’s cheaper, and he’s happier. We’re all happier.
Over the course of the last two years, I’ve gotten comfortable with downtime. It’s ok for my kid to be bored. It’s ok for us to sit around on a weekend and watch Netflix for a bit.
I’ve also learned that’s its ok for me to just spend time focusing on my home, my family, and myself. I’ve cut a lot of the volunteering I used to do at school. I realized that I can do my share, but I don’t have to do everyone’s share. I don’t have to be perfect.
So I guess what I’m saying is take a look at your family life and make sure you’re doing things because you want to, and not because you need to. For me,it was very easy for me to get swept up in what my kid should be doing and what I should be doing. After 3 Years, we are happy that we cut back.
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I would enlist the grandparents to help out. I used to feel guilty about asking parents to help w/our kids, now I try to do it regularly. The more they are engaged, the closer they will feel to your kids and you, the more they will have a sense of life and feel like they are contributing. One of our kids grandparents used to work the grind, retired and now doesn't do much. It takes a bit to get her out of her rut, and she tries to make excuses not to help out, but we just keep asking, and eventually she gives in, then has fun while she's doing it. So I would certainly try to get them to help w/easy to do things (i.e. sitting in a lawn chair and reading a book while your kids are at practice). That takes no skill other than knowing how to tell time and how to drive.
I would try to cut down on some/any of the activities that are really not filling your child's cup. Many parents over-schedule their kids b/c they're trying to keep up. If your kid isn't particularly fond of something, ask them if they want to drop it. I think it's good to have kids try things, and great if they really have a passion for all things, but generally they have 1 or 2 things that they really enjoy. I'm sure they could cut something back though.
Try to do some teleworking. I'm not sure if your jobs allow for that or if it's possible. My wife and I both telework full time and have 3 young boys. I don't know how you normal people who go into the office do it each day... I save hours each day not having to drive, dress, groom, etc. I can re-invest that time in work and other things. If I'm on a conference call I can drop clothes in the laundry or unload the dishwasher. You can't do that going into an office each day. I find that my "work" is way more productive, although I miss out on the office politics (mostly a good thing), but I am out of sight out of mind to leadership, which can be a career killer. Overall though it's helped work/life balance.
Try to figure a cost to the work, commute, etc. Maybe a $20k cut would work for a full time telework job or career change, not sure? I know that raising kids w/tons of activities is very difficult. I am out of the house Tue-Thurs all night during Winter, Mon-Thurs all night during Fall/Spring, so we don't get much break either. Doing things during these events that fill your cup also help, like maybe going for a run during kids practice, reading a book, socializing w/other parents, listening to a podcast, doing yoga.
Finding ways to multi-task w/kid activities is super important. When my son plays his basketball games, I watch when he's in, then I read on my phone when he's on the bench :) Filling that gap time w/kid events is super important though and helpful to an over-scheduled calendar.
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My employer just changes the percentage they will pay of the health insurance. So if you took one day off or 20% less time, they require you to pay 20% more of the premium.
I am not sure which of you is a professor, especially during those busy seasons teach less courses or are you able to set your class schedule time? Is it possible to get some TAs to take over some of the grading or even some teaching.
When I was kid I was packing my lunch in elementary school and cleaning one room. Within a few years my siblings and I were each responsible for dusting and vacuuming a room a week, setting table, doing the dishes, take out trash, etc. I started mowing our lawn at 10.
My sister limits my niece to one sport per season. Also growing up I went to a high school about 20 minutes from home. I played softball and there was 3 of us that lived close so our parents then us as we were allowed to drive rotated driving.
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I appreciate all the brainstorming!
It's just not realistic for either of us to stay home right now. She makes $60K, plus awesome health insurance, plus 401k matching, plus she even gets a vehicle allowance each month because she has to drive some for her job. We just can't give that up right now. Her staying at home and not buying as many clothes or cooking from scratch more wouldn't even put a 5% dent in the lost income.
We had a long talked and crunched numbers this weekend. We're going to try to give each other a night off more often. That will help.
And I want to clarify about the "not getting home until 8PM thing." That was because of my daughter's sports schedule, not because of work. We both generally leave work at 5PM. So it's not like either of us works for a taskmaster. But even with reasonable hours and reasonable commutes, it's still a grind. (I know other people have busier schedules, so that's why in my OP I admitted this might sound like whining).
We are both on board for just plowing through until we hit $500K NW. But this thread is a reminder that we do have options, if we choose to tweak our lives at some point. But it's funny; neither of us drive a clown car. Our house is reasonable. Our commutes are reasonable. We have a good marriage. Our kids are great. Our jobs pay well. And we're still stressed.
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But it's funny; neither of us drive a clown car. Our house is reasonable. Our commutes are reasonable. We have a good marriage. Our kids are great. Our jobs pay well. And we're still stressed.
Oh, so you’re human. Congrats. Who do you know lives a stress free life? I doubt anyone. If normal, relatively healthy and generally fine is the worst of your stress, you’re doing great. Maybe keep a gratitude journal to keep reminding yourself how good life is, while still trying to find tiny solutions to optimize and improve. It can always get better, just keep in perspective and if you ever lose that perspective, volunteer at a homeless shelter for a day.
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But it's funny; neither of us drive a clown car. Our house is reasonable. Our commutes are reasonable. We have a good marriage. Our kids are great. Our jobs pay well. And we're still stressed.
Oh, so you’re human. Congrats. Who do you know lives a stress free life? I doubt anyone. If normal, relatively healthy and generally fine is the worst of your stress, you’re doing great. Maybe keep a gratitude journal to keep reminding yourself how good life is, while still trying to find tiny solutions to optimize and improve. It can always get better, just keep in perspective and if you ever lose that perspective, volunteer at a homeless shelter for a day.
I'm gonna go ahead and totally, completely, and utterly go against the sentiment behind your post.
I agree with the "oh, so you're human part", but that's because I think that almost any dual working couple with their kid in sports is likely to be bloody exhausted.
He can be grateful for how great his life is and still feel run down and shitty. In fact, I think it's this absurd mentality that being exhausted is normal that drives people to continue on in these lives that are possibly unnecessarily tiresome.
If that level of income and their daughter's sports truly are their very top priorities, then yeah, they need to suck it up and accept the costs of the trade offs they've chosen to make and be grateful for the opportunities to achieve their goals.
However, I doubt that someone posts a thread like this if they are truly on their best path and living their best life. If not, then sucking it up and focusing on gratitude can actually be tremendously bad for mental health.
No one needs to feel grateful for feeling shitty. That's illogical.
OP: If your wife could make an extra 60K working an extra 40 hours a week, would she? Would you think it unreasonable for her not to?
No! Obviously not!
So saying that she must, as a given, work the first 40 hours a week for the first 60K is an equally nonsense concept.
She only needs to work 40 hours a week if the trade off in terms of time/energy/money actually makes sense for your family. If it doesn't, then change it because it's a bad trade.
Everything is a trade off.
It's not that your wife "can't" quit, it's that you have collectively decided that her time and energy are worth the income. It's an active choice you've made, not a passive parameter within which you live.
The life you are living is exhausting *because* it's normal and normal life seems to be pretty exhausting. You may need to live exceptionally in order to overcome that normal reality, which is where I agree with MrThatsDifferent, because you shouldn't expect your life not to be exhausting. You've chosen a normal, exhausting life.
Don't fall into the knee-jerk reaction of thinking "oh no, we can't even consider that option because on the face it seems unreasonable" because sometimes, those trade offs are actually amazing deals.
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But it's funny; neither of us drive a clown car. Our house is reasonable. Our commutes are reasonable. We have a good marriage. Our kids are great. Our jobs pay well. And we're still stressed.
All of this stuff is relative. The people you are comparing to are likely also stressed out and maybe in even worse straits financially. To figure out what your low-stress and on-track-for-FIRE lifestyle looks like, you need to stop comparing yourself about people who are no way going to FIRE and may not ever get to just plain old R before 70.
As an example, my husband and I have one car between us. To us, having a second car would be an outrageous level of spending and having a lifestyle that necessitates it sounds pretty awful to me right now. But for many families, it's totally normal/reasonable to have two cars. Well, it's also normal and "reasonable" to work into your 60s and maybe not even be able to fully retire then, so...who cares what those people think is normal?
How flexible are your work arrangements regarding work-from-home days? When my husband and I each added a work from home day each week I found it helped a lot with cutting stress. Getting into the office (even with a reasonable commute) is kind of draining. Not having to do it once during the week frees up a little time to stay on top of housework or even just have a lunch break that is truly a break (I can take a 20 min nap if I need it!).
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Overall, it sounds like you're feeling all the normal mid-life stresses. How, I wish I had a concept of retiring early through frugal living before I was an adult instead of picking it up in my mid-30's.
After school activities sound like your biggest time issue - and you're still a few years away from outsourcing this to your kid. Can you find other parents with kids in the same programs to help each other out with the shuttling of kids back and forth?
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We have recently developed this commonly held societal norm that children cannot be unattended.
They can't really go and play at a park with kids in their neighborhood anymore. They have to be escorted to and from by an adult to be around other children with an adult supervising.
It's a shame, because I'd be happy being a free range parent but not enough to deal with the pushback. I'd be interested in my kids playing independently, but not really interested in being a pioneer of the movement.
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No more than 1 activity per child. Easy meals some days such as grilled cheese and soup, frozen pizza, deli chicken and sides. My mom helped me with the kids and in return I would take care of my dad who very sick occasionally.
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The life you are living is exhausting *because* it's normal and normal life seems to be pretty exhausting. You may need to live exceptionally in order to overcome that normal reality, which is where I agree with MrThatsDifferent, because you shouldn't expect your life not to be exhausting. You've chosen a normal, exhausting life.
Don't fall into the knee-jerk reaction of thinking "oh no, we can't even consider that option because on the face it seems unreasonable" because sometimes, those trade offs are actually amazing deals.
I agree! Before we cut down on activities, it felt as if we were constantly being forced to eat a turkey, steak dinner, entire chocolate cake, ice cream, and three kinds of pie at every meal and clean our plates. And it felt as if we refused to take the cake, for instance, it would be removed and then we could never have cake again. It got better for a while, but now our plates are gradually filling up again.
At the risk of over-extrapolating, I think this frantic feeling that even upper middle class families have is a function of the lack of a safety net, and dare I say it? income inequality. We fear that if our kids don't excel in at least two activities, that they will miss out on the top colleges, the scholarships, and the plum jobs. And I don't have an answer for this problem.
Feel free to let me know if I'm way off base on some of your reluctance to slow things down a bit.
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The life you are living is exhausting *because* it's normal and normal life seems to be pretty exhausting. You may need to live exceptionally in order to overcome that normal reality, which is where I agree with MrThatsDifferent, because you shouldn't expect your life not to be exhausting. You've chosen a normal, exhausting life.
Don't fall into the knee-jerk reaction of thinking "oh no, we can't even consider that option because on the face it seems unreasonable" because sometimes, those trade offs are actually amazing deals.
I agree! Before we cut down on activities, it felt as if we were constantly being forced to eat a turkey, steak dinner, entire chocolate cake, ice cream, and three kinds of pie at every meal and clean our plates. And it felt as if we refused to take the cake, for instance, it would be removed and then we could never have cake again. It got better for a while, but now our plates are gradually filling up again.
At the risk of over-extrapolating, I think this frantic feeling that even upper middle class families have is a function of the lack of a safety net, and dare I say it? income inequality. We fear that if our kids don't excel in at least two activities, that they will miss out on the top colleges, the scholarships, and the plum jobs. And I don't have an answer for this problem.
Feel free to let me know if I'm way off base on some of your reluctance to slow things down a bit.
Is that why you guys all have your kids in multiple activities? For college??
That finally makes sense.
I was wondering what was up with like, every American on this board having kids in organized activities. It's just not that common among my friend group.
Sure, a lot of kids up here are on insane traveling hockey teams, but usually the whole family is obsessed with hockey. It's not unusual though for non-hockey kids here to be in absolutely no organized activities, even among wealthier families.
That's probably because our universities don't require anything for admissions other than highschool grades, no essays or letters of recommendation or anything.
Mystery solved.
I was really wondering about all of the activities...
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DD always wanted to do every club at school, but we tried to limit after school activities to one at a time. She also played a sport through middle and high school. I always found parents that wanted to carpool so I could limit pick up to 1-2 days a week. Most parents are as burned out as you and would welcome a break also. Do your schools offer activity buses? DD never wanted to take it as it was a long bus ride, but my standard response to her in middle school was asking whether what she wanted to do was worth her taking the activity bus. Our high school has block scheduling so club meetings and extra teacher help are during lunch, which I love.
No answer on getting up so early, that won't end until they graduate or schools have later starts.
DD is a senior and I am super excited to be at the end of having to get up at 6 am every morning.
Not sure what you do, but is there any possibility of remote work? The large megacorp I used to work for had a standard policy of allowing 2 days a week remote.
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Lots of great suggestions so far. I think most families struggle with these same issues (time, peak work life phase during kid-raising years).
My husband works long hours (12-13 hr shifts as a hospital, ICU/helicopter RN) and I have worked as a nonprofit ED (not exactly silicon valley level stress, but a lot of hours and not high pay). When our child entered 1st grade, something had to shift for us. The 5pm - 10pm window just felt too rushed and too focused on logistics (DINNER! BATH! BEDTIME!).
I managed to start nonprofit consulting from home and now work 30 - 40 hrs a week, but with the benefit of being able to pick up our daughter when she gets out of school at 3pm. Even if I have to take a call or work more after I pick her up, its much lower key than before and the afterschool activities don't feel like an intrusion because there's still downtime for her (and me). My pay is roughly equal to what I was making, which is to say, it hasn't grown, but hasn't fallen either.
Of my closest female friends who are also caregiving for 1 - 3 children, about 60% of them have found ways to either decrease working hours to 30 - 35 hours a week, or put themselves into a position where they're location flexible (esp after 3pm).
I think even if your wife (or you) were able to leave work at 4pm or 3:30pm, it would do wonders for your family balance, without sacrificing earning years.
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Is that why you guys all have your kids in multiple activities? For college??
That finally makes sense.
I was wondering what was up with like, every American on this board having kids in organized activities. It's just not that common among my friend group.
Sure, a lot of kids up here are on insane traveling hockey teams, but usually the whole family is obsessed with hockey. It's not unusual though for non-hockey kids here to be in absolutely no organized activities, even among wealthier families.
That's probably because our universities don't require anything for admissions other than highschool grades, no essays or letters of recommendation or anything.
Mystery solved.
I was really wondering about all of the activities...
I'd say that that is a large part of it. Certainly any top 50 (and probably top 100) University is going to expect several extra curriculars on top of excellent grades. If you want to get into a "good" school you start plotting your activities when you are probably 12-13. Which means that you start testing out a bunch of activities to find your natural talents in your elementary school years.
I'm an early 80's baby and when I was applying for colleges, if you were going to anything other than the local state U (or if you wanted a large scholarship from state U), it was standard knowledge that you needed to have an arts activity, a sport, a volunteer activity and at least one academic extra activity (student council, debate, quiz bowl, student paper etc). Granted, in the late 90's/early aughts those things would usually also get you a scholarship as long as you were in the top 10 or so of your class. Now they just get you into the school but usually don't get you much money.
It is also just part of the culture for middle class people, especially with two working parents. When everyone puts their kids in activities, that is the only way for your kid to socialize.
We were very anti-activity when we first had kids, but we found they never had anyone to socialize with because everyone else was in activities. So we started a few activities too.
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I'd say that that is a large part of it. Certainly any top 50 (and probably top 100) University is going to expect several extra curriculars on top of excellent grades. If you want to get into a "good" school you start plotting your activities when you are probably 12-13. Which means that you start testing out a bunch of activities to find your natural talents in your elementary school years.
I'm an early 80's baby and when I was applying for colleges, if you were going to anything other than the local state U (or if you wanted a large scholarship from state U), it was standard knowledge that you needed to have an arts activity, a sport, a volunteer activity and at least one academic extra activity (student council, debate, quiz bowl, student paper etc). Granted, in the late 90's/early aughts those things would usually also get you a scholarship as long as you were in the top 10 or so of your class. Now they just get you into the school but usually don't get you much money.
It is also just part of the culture for middle class people, especially with two working parents. When everyone puts their kids in activities, that is the only way for your kid to socialize.
We were very anti-activity when we first had kids, but we found they never had anyone to socialize with because everyone else was in activities. So we started a few activities too.
Fuuuck.
Just reading your post tired me out. That seems like an absolutely insane amount of pressure on kids and families.
Between the effort to get in and the cost of your best schools, it all sounds overwhelming.
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The life you are living is exhausting *because* it's normal and normal life seems to be pretty exhausting. You may need to live exceptionally in order to overcome that normal reality, which is where I agree with MrThatsDifferent, because you shouldn't expect your life not to be exhausting. You've chosen a normal, exhausting life.
Don't fall into the knee-jerk reaction of thinking "oh no, we can't even consider that option because on the face it seems unreasonable" because sometimes, those trade offs are actually amazing deals.
I agree! Before we cut down on activities, it felt as if we were constantly being forced to eat a turkey, steak dinner, entire chocolate cake, ice cream, and three kinds of pie at every meal and clean our plates. And it felt as if we refused to take the cake, for instance, it would be removed and then we could never have cake again. It got better for a while, but now our plates are gradually filling up again.
At the risk of over-extrapolating, I think this frantic feeling that even upper middle class families have is a function of the lack of a safety net, and dare I say it? income inequality. We fear that if our kids don't excel in at least two activities, that they will miss out on the top colleges, the scholarships, and the plum jobs. And I don't have an answer for this problem.
Feel free to let me know if I'm way off base on some of your reluctance to slow things down a bit.
I definitely feel this. I don't WANT my husband and I to both be working FT jobs indefinitely and I definitely worry about how that will impact our kid if it continues into starting primary school (he's 3 now). But I also feel quite keenly that other people are working more and if we take ourselves off the income treadmill...it might not be a tidy little step off or simple speed reduction, we might also just get flung off into who knows what, as others continue to accumulate while we stay "still" or have drastically reduced income. Does my kid need every little luxury in life? No. But I do want to be able to guarantee him healthcare, healthy food on the table, warm clothes, and a good shot at making his own way in life. The income/wealth inequality in the US and lack of a social safety net means that if I don't provide that last thing for my kid, he could fall pretty damn far. I read stuff like Tech is Splitting the US Work Force in Two (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/04/business/economy/productivity-inequality-wages.html) or Helicopter Parenting is the Route to Success (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/07/opinion/helicopter-parents-economy.html), and it definitely sets off a lot of anxiety for me. So yeah, for all I am on here telling OP he needs to rethink his lifestyle and who he is comparing himself to, I can see myself falling into the exact same situation in another 5-10 years and TBH, part of me thinks maybe that would be the best outcome for my kid. On the other hand, I see parents who are definitely working the career track harder than I am and I can see it's costing them in various ways (either in having a higher spend rate than we do or in health impacts, generally).
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I'd say that that is a large part of it. Certainly any top 50 (and probably top 100) University is going to expect several extra curriculars on top of excellent grades. If you want to get into a "good" school you start plotting your activities when you are probably 12-13. Which means that you start testing out a bunch of activities to find your natural talents in your elementary school years.
I'm an early 80's baby and when I was applying for colleges, if you were going to anything other than the local state U (or if you wanted a large scholarship from state U), it was standard knowledge that you needed to have an arts activity, a sport, a volunteer activity and at least one academic extra activity (student council, debate, quiz bowl, student paper etc). Granted, in the late 90's/early aughts those things would usually also get you a scholarship as long as you were in the top 10 or so of your class. Now they just get you into the school but usually don't get you much money.
It is also just part of the culture for middle class people, especially with two working parents. When everyone puts their kids in activities, that is the only way for your kid to socialize.
We were very anti-activity when we first had kids, but we found they never had anyone to socialize with because everyone else was in activities. So we started a few activities too.
Fuuuck.
Just reading your post tired me out. That seems like an absolutely insane amount of pressure on kids and families.
Between the effort to get in and the cost of your best schools, it all sounds overwhelming.
We are really trying to figure this out right now, with two kids in middle school. Additionally, the amount of homework heaped on middle school kids (at least where we are, Silicon Valley) is ludicrous. I've followed up with the teachers before, & there explanation is always that the other parents are REQUESTING it. Blows my mind. What this means, unfortunately, is that if our kids aren't doing the same volume of homework, they are struggling more with the fast paced classes (because the other kids are studying so much). An example. My sons are both in advanced math (it's a tested in thing, we didn't ask for/push this). My youngest son is struggling, because they are crunching through the content so quickly. I asked a few friends, & they've been sending their kids to optional math "academies" three times a week for years. .. .Again, mind blown. So, we have the option of our son dropping advanced math (which, he doesn't want to do), creating extra study time (which, neither of us want to do), being okay with subpar grades (Cs), or some other solution we haven't stumbled upon yet. It's making me rethink our decision to keep the kids in the bay area. I hate the competition. I grew up in a small town, went to an adequate school, and ended up with this life. Why do the kids need to be pushed to excel at 11? I get so angry, but don't have any solutions
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Thanks for posting this. You definitely aren't alone although our circumstance is slightly different. My wife and I are early 40s, one kiddo (preschool), and I work full time while she takes care of the kiddo and is doing her Masters in the evening.
The biggest challenge we have (and it sounds like you have a similar challenge) is work/life balance. When I say work I'm not just referring to the job - taking your kids to activities is work, cleaning the house is work, your job is work, commute is work, your side hustle is work, etc.
The main thing I've discussed with my wife is that we have to be the ones to set the limits and make space for us to "live". Also, the biggest pressure for more "work" isn't us or our kid - it's other parents and the expectations of the top 20% earners in the US to "always be on". However, we've determined that this lifestyle doesn't align with our values.
To balance things out, we are going to ensure that we continue "make space" as our son progresses through life. That means we look a bit different than the typical neighbor: 1) right now I do the minimum maintenance on our 30 year house - we are a bit a slum lord to ourselves, 2) we live very frugally so that we can pay our bills, wife goes to school, kid goes to daycare (no nearby parents), 3) we accept that our 60%+ savings rate from pre-kid is gone - if we save 20-30% I'm very ok with this. Our neighbors think we are super poor (we're not) and that is actually super freeing. They feel bad for us so they don't pressure us to have the latest new toy for our son and they certainly don't expect that we can pay for a raft of activities going forward. Awesome.
I can already see that slightly older kids in the neighborhood are getting into all sorts of toys, activities, etc. The pressure is immense but only if you decide to go along. We are ok with being the "weird family that doesn't take our kid to 27 different sports events a week". I don't plan to coach, if our son wants to go to an activity he can bike there (very MMM) or don't go. I remember being bored as a kid and my mom offered to "help" by giving me chores around the house. When did that get replaced with activities every evening until 8pm? Is that how you grew up? I certainly wasn't raised that way so why fix what wasn't broken?
But you might be thinking, "times have changed and we have to compete". We'll I think that's nonsense. This only benefits the institutions. We don't plan to "force" our son to go to college and we will help him lay out a plan to beat the rat race without being a rat (if he desires). If he wants to go I have confidence that he will find a way to make it happen (and we'll help a bit but we aren't going to hold his hand every step of the way).
Anyway, good luck with your decisions. To me it sounds like the problem is your expectations for your kids and activities, rather than work, but it really comes down to your objectives. Sit down with your wife and figure out a plan forward. We have ours. In 5 years we're dropping out of the rat race entirely, living in a van, and road schooling our son. Perfect life education on how to side step the system.
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The life you are living is exhausting *because* it's normal and normal life seems to be pretty exhausting. You may need to live exceptionally in order to overcome that normal reality, which is where I agree with MrThatsDifferent, because you shouldn't expect your life not to be exhausting. You've chosen a normal, exhausting life.
Don't fall into the knee-jerk reaction of thinking "oh no, we can't even consider that option because on the face it seems unreasonable" because sometimes, those trade offs are actually amazing deals.
I agree! Before we cut down on activities, it felt as if we were constantly being forced to eat a turkey, steak dinner, entire chocolate cake, ice cream, and three kinds of pie at every meal and clean our plates. And it felt as if we refused to take the cake, for instance, it would be removed and then we could never have cake again. It got better for a while, but now our plates are gradually filling up again.
At the risk of over-extrapolating, I think this frantic feeling that even upper middle class families have is a function of the lack of a safety net, and dare I say it? income inequality. We fear that if our kids don't excel in at least two activities, that they will miss out on the top colleges, the scholarships, and the plum jobs. And I don't have an answer for this problem.
Feel free to let me know if I'm way off base on some of your reluctance to slow things down a bit.
Is that why you guys all have your kids in multiple activities? For college??
That finally makes sense.
I was wondering what was up with like, every American on this board having kids in organized activities. It's just not that common among my friend group.
Sure, a lot of kids up here are on insane traveling hockey teams, but usually the whole family is obsessed with hockey. It's not unusual though for non-hockey kids here to be in absolutely no organized activities, even among wealthier families.
That's probably because our universities don't require anything for admissions other than highschool grades, no essays or letters of recommendation or anything.
Mystery solved.
I was really wondering about all of the activities...
There is so much of this. And so many of my coworkers (mostly the Indian & Chinese PhDs) are obsessed with making sure their kids are #1, or at least in the top 10. Because you won't get into the "right" college. Which, I get it. For them, being the best was required in order to get into their US-based PhD programs. It's incredibly competitive to get into the top universities, and our UC's aren't far behind (the average SAT score of incoming freshmen to UCSB is something like 1385? It's the equivalent of about 1310 when I went to college decades ago, and that's insane.)
So, it's the sports and the volunteering and the music. I'm pretty vocal with my coworkers about how unnecessary I think all of this crap is. I mean, kid #1 is in junior high, he's got straight A's. He's gonna be JUST FINE and I really don't give a crap if he goes to MIT, Cal Tech, Berkeley - or if he goes to a state school or small college or university. He's going to be FINE.
Although, there is a point. I went to a top 10 engineering school, and the joke was that it's where people chose to go if they didn't get into MIT or Stanford. Husband's boss's daughter is there as a freshman, and I made that joke to his wife. She said "yep! Didn't get into Berkeley or MIT, so that's where she is!" Berkeley is a state school and a LOT cheaper than where I went. Also, MIT and Stanford have bigger endowments and can give more financial aid.
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Can I offer a counterpoint to the, kids in activities for college debate? Sure, I guess that is part of it but that’s often driven by the parents. What about the kids that actually like learning things at a young age, because they want to, not because a parent has forced them? I wish my parents had the money to send me to music lessons, martial arts, foreign languages, etc. Learning all of that as an adult is so hard, but if you learn as a kid, a lot stays with you. If my kid was learning well in school and wanted to do extras that weren’t getting in the way and that the kid enjoyed, I’d do whatever I could to support. I sure as hell wouldn’t restrict them because of my FIRE plans or because I’m too tired. I’m not going to give my work so much energy I don’t have it to give to my kids and their interests. You only get them for 18 years. And again, you choose this! Want more time? Have less kids so you have enough energy to give. Sheesh. I’m sure I’ll catch hell for this but it seems like people structure their lives in certain ways and then whine about it. Like everyone expects to have multiple kids, win the lottery and then hire people to do all the things you don’t like. Can you have that life? Sure, look at MMM, retired first, then had one kid. But if you don’t have that set up, yeah, it’s going to be work, but that’s what you signed up for. What did you expect life to be like?
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You have divorced parents. Surely one of them has beef enough with the other to want to be the "good" grandparent and take your kid to their activities. Casually mention that you need help and you were thinking of asking a grandparent and jeez that ex of theirs isn;t that involved in your kid's life. You could end up with all of them driving!!
I feel your pain. We are a 2 worker family now since Jan 1 after 11 years of having a SAHP at home. It's been rough. My job is demanding and unpredictable. I take call and I never know when I will be home or not. Oldest kid is kind of old enough (although not responsible enough) to be at home with the other 2 for an hour or two in the afternoons. But it's required a ton of adjusting on everyone's part and I've been trying to manage our now really crazy combined schedules, multiple dr appts, and keep it all from falling apart. I had it the other day when they cancelled school for weather and we had no childcare to help and pretty much told my DH he had to help organize or none of us were going to survive.
I'm not sure what the solution is other than take solace in the fact that most families are struggling like this? I feel embarrassed almost that I've not had to deal with this until now and had no idea how much of a hassle it was for others. We don't have a single family member within 1000 miles of us. My kid's medical conditions kind of tie us here so I don't see that improving any time soon either. Eventually they will grow up, my stashe will grow then I'll be old and worn out and retire and die.
Do you mind if I ask....why are you doing it? If you managed for 11 years to have a SAHP, what made your situation change? If it's wanting to retire early, I guess I understand....but at what cost?
I've been a combination of SAHM, freelancer (from home) and part-time worker (also from home). My kids are also in late elementary and jr high and they are both VERY involved in both sports and music....and this is year round. Multiple sports, instruments, choir, etc. There is absolutely no way we could manage with two parents working full-time. We've had SIX snow days in the last 3 weeks with no family around to help. HOW do people deal with that without help? We could cut their activities, but why? They enrich their lives in a big way.
We have 10 and 20 year old cars and an old, outdated house. We are frugal so that we are never in a situation to have to have two working parents as long as our kids are at home. I will gladly go back to work full-time when they are gone. DH and I agree that having a balanced life while our kids are with us (it's so fleeting)...is our #1 priority. What is the point of retiring early if your years of working are miserable? These are years you cannot get back. I have a friend who is 37 years old at the end of a stage 4 breast cancer fight. Three kids under the age of 14. You just never know. You can't trade now for later with certainty.
I guess I just don't understand why people want to live this way?
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You have divorced parents. Surely one of them has beef enough with the other to want to be the "good" grandparent and take your kid to their activities. Casually mention that you need help and you were thinking of asking a grandparent and jeez that ex of theirs isn;t that involved in your kid's life. You could end up with all of them driving!!
I feel your pain. We are a 2 worker family now since Jan 1 after 11 years of having a SAHP at home. It's been rough. My job is demanding and unpredictable. I take call and I never know when I will be home or not. Oldest kid is kind of old enough (although not responsible enough) to be at home with the other 2 for an hour or two in the afternoons. But it's required a ton of adjusting on everyone's part and I've been trying to manage our now really crazy combined schedules, multiple dr appts, and keep it all from falling apart. I had it the other day when they cancelled school for weather and we had no childcare to help and pretty much told my DH he had to help organize or none of us were going to survive.
I'm not sure what the solution is other than take solace in the fact that most families are struggling like this? I feel embarrassed almost that I've not had to deal with this until now and had no idea how much of a hassle it was for others. We don't have a single family member within 1000 miles of us. My kid's medical conditions kind of tie us here so I don't see that improving any time soon either. Eventually they will grow up, my stashe will grow then I'll be old and worn out and retire and die.
Do you mind if I ask....why are you doing it? If you managed for 11 years to have a SAHP, what made your situation change? If it's wanting to retire early, I guess I understand....but at what cost?
I've been a combination of SAHM, freelancer (from home) and part-time worker (also from home). My kids are also in late elementary and jr high and they are both VERY involved in both sports and music....and this is year round. Multiple sports, instruments, choir, etc. There is absolutely no way we could manage with two parents working full-time. We've had SIX snow days in the last 3 weeks with no family around to help. HOW do people deal with that without help? We could cut their activities, but why? They enrich their lives in a big way.
We have 10 and 20 year old cars and an old, outdated house. We are frugal so that we are never in a situation to have to have two working parents as long as our kids are at home. I will gladly go back to work full-time when they are gone. DH and I agree that having a balanced life while our kids are with us (it's so fleeting)...is our #1 priority. What is the point of retiring early if your years of working are miserable? These are years you cannot get back. I have a friend who is 37 years old at the end of a stage 4 breast cancer fight. Three kids under the age of 14. You just never know. You can't trade now for later with certainty.
I guess I just don't understand why people want to live this way?
Likewise.
I have 10 and 13 year old cars. A small, old, outdated house with only one bathroom.
My kids are in early elementary and junior high, and having them be VERY involved in music and sports and carting them around? Sounds like utter hell to me. We had 3 years of that with only 1 kid in year round 3x/week sports (and the other just in one night/ week). It was horrible. I didn't like it. To be honest, they didn't like it either.
Maybe it's a lifestyle choice, maybe it's a personality thing (we do have a tendency to be homebodies ... all of us ... we just like being at home!)
Given the choice of working and having my kids not be in sports / music (because it's hectic), or not working and having the kids be in many days of activities outside the home...I'd take door 1. All. the. day. long.
We have no family around. We don't have snow days either (but we have had cancellations due to fire/ mudslides). What do we do? We work from home, take PTO, work half days (one of us will work the morning, the other the afternoon, can usually get 6 solid hours in that way).
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Good grief everyone, stop and breathe!
Your kid doesn't have to do an art thing, a sports thing, a charity thing, and another thing and get all A's in advanced classes -- she needs to pursue her interest(s) in ways that are meaningful to her!
My older son is a senior, and has played soccer pretty seriously for years. He's academically advanced. He doesn't do art, he doesn't do another sport, he doesn't do a "charity thing" unless he's chasing girls (so there was some "visiting puppies at the humane society" a while ago). He still got into a couple of top schools. He wrote (and re-wrote, and re-wrote, and had edited by adults he respected, and then re-wrote again) some pretty darn hot essays, one of which described what he'd learned from playing soccer and being a leader on a diverse, top-20 high school team. My #1 piece of advice for high school juniors is to look up the essays on the universal application and start brainstorming, because the better that piece of writing is, the better you look on paper. And it takes some time to get a HS student to actually write something that reveals part of her personality.
However, your kid will be fine (better then fine!) even without going to MIT or Stanford. In fact, it'd be better to go to one of those places as a graduate student (preferably one who's getting paid). It's possible to encourage your kids' interests without making yourself completely crazy: again, this isn't about you displaying your status -- it's about your student finding a place where she fits in and can learn.
I agree for the OP one of you should see if you can step back to part time. I'd actually suggest that you switch off every year or two, so neither of you takes the entire hit to your future earnings. I also suggest setting up as many carpools as possible. They can be a PITA to organize, but a well-functioning carpool is a wonderful thing. And unless you have serious qualms about the coaches (and if you do, you should be addressing those directly) don't stick around and watch practices -- go for a run, or do the grocery shopping, or .. did I mention carpool?
Different kids are going to have different needs and desires for a variety of activities. I realize we're talking about a broad spread of ages in this thread, but the more you can empower them (to do stuff, to help around the house, to organize their own transportation, to cook dinner), the better it is for you and them both.
Also, in my town there are a number of folks (including me) doing professional work either as consultants or part-time. It's a local standard, though, and YMMV.
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You have divorced parents. Surely one of them has beef enough with the other to want to be the "good" grandparent and take your kid to their activities. Casually mention that you need help and you were thinking of asking a grandparent and jeez that ex of theirs isn;t that involved in your kid's life. You could end up with all of them driving!!
I feel your pain. We are a 2 worker family now since Jan 1 after 11 years of having a SAHP at home. It's been rough. My job is demanding and unpredictable. I take call and I never know when I will be home or not. Oldest kid is kind of old enough (although not responsible enough) to be at home with the other 2 for an hour or two in the afternoons. But it's required a ton of adjusting on everyone's part and I've been trying to manage our now really crazy combined schedules, multiple dr appts, and keep it all from falling apart. I had it the other day when they cancelled school for weather and we had no childcare to help and pretty much told my DH he had to help organize or none of us were going to survive.
I'm not sure what the solution is other than take solace in the fact that most families are struggling like this? I feel embarrassed almost that I've not had to deal with this until now and had no idea how much of a hassle it was for others. We don't have a single family member within 1000 miles of us. My kid's medical conditions kind of tie us here so I don't see that improving any time soon either. Eventually they will grow up, my stashe will grow then I'll be old and worn out and retire and die.
Do you mind if I ask....why are you doing it? If you managed for 11 years to have a SAHP, what made your situation change? If it's wanting to retire early, I guess I understand....but at what cost?
I've been a combination of SAHM, freelancer (from home) and part-time worker (also from home). My kids are also in late elementary and jr high and they are both VERY involved in both sports and music....and this is year round. Multiple sports, instruments, choir, etc. There is absolutely no way we could manage with two parents working full-time. We've had SIX snow days in the last 3 weeks with no family around to help. HOW do people deal with that without help? We could cut their activities, but why? They enrich their lives in a big way.
We have 10 and 20 year old cars and an old, outdated house. We are frugal so that we are never in a situation to have to have two working parents as long as our kids are at home. I will gladly go back to work full-time when they are gone. DH and I agree that having a balanced life while our kids are with us (it's so fleeting)...is our #1 priority. What is the point of retiring early if your years of working are miserable? These are years you cannot get back. I have a friend who is 37 years old at the end of a stage 4 breast cancer fight. Three kids under the age of 14. You just never know. You can't trade now for later with certainty.
I guess I just don't understand why people want to live this way?
Likewise.
I have 10 and 13 year old cars. A small, old, outdated house with only one bathroom.
My kids are in early elementary and junior high, and having them be VERY involved in music and sports and carting them around? Sounds like utter hell to me. We had 3 years of that with only 1 kid in year round 3x/week sports (and the other just in one night/ week). It was horrible. I didn't like it. To be honest, they didn't like it either.
Maybe it's a lifestyle choice, maybe it's a personality thing (we do have a tendency to be homebodies ... all of us ... we just like being at home!)
Given the choice of working and having my kids not be in sports / music (because it's hectic), or not working and having the kids be in many days of activities outside the home...I'd take door 1. All. the. day. long.
We have no family around. We don't have snow days either (but we have had cancellations due to fire/ mudslides). What do we do? We work from home, take PTO, work half days (one of us will work the morning, the other the afternoon, can usually get 6 solid hours in that way).
I 100% agree that if your kids don’t enjoy organized activities then it is not necessary or worth it. For the kids that DO get a lot out of it (or absolutely love their instrument or sports like mine do), I can’t imagine saying no. But it can be a lot to manage...so I do think some things have to be sacrificed for sanity purposes..
I’m also not being critical of those who have two working parents and love it that way. That’s awesome! But it doesn’t sound like the OP.
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Good grief everyone, stop and breathe!
Your kid doesn't have to do an art thing, a sports thing, a charity thing, and another thing and get all A's in advanced classes -- she needs to pursue her interest(s) in ways that are meaningful to her!
My older son is a senior, and has played soccer pretty seriously for years. He's academically advanced. He doesn't do art, he doesn't do another sport, he doesn't do a "charity thing" unless he's chasing girls (so there was some "visiting puppies at the humane society" a while ago). He still got into a couple of top schools. He wrote (and re-wrote, and re-wrote, and had edited by adults he respected, and then re-wrote again) some pretty darn hot essays, one of which described what he'd learned from playing soccer and being a leader on a diverse, top-20 high school team. My #1 piece of advice for high school juniors is to look up the essays on the universal application and start brainstorming, because the better that piece of writing is, the better you look on paper. And it takes some time to get a HS student to actually write something that reveals part of her personality.
However, your kid will be fine (better then fine!) even without going to MIT or Stanford. In fact, it'd be better to go to one of those places as a graduate student (preferably one who's getting paid). It's possible to encourage your kids' interests without making yourself completely crazy: again, this isn't about you displaying your status -- it's about your student finding a place where she fits in and can learn.
. . .
As someone who has worked in the admissions department of a selective undergrad program (albeit, over a decade ago), your son actually checks a ton of boxes for admission to a top 50 school just based on a 4.0, a truly stand-out essay, and a top 20 team. If he wasn't on an elite team but merely played the sport he would definitely need to have some other activity to up his numbers on the personal qualities/activity scale. These sorts of things are definitely weighted.
Everyone has a 1350 and a minimum A- average that is applying to the top 20 schools these days (unless they are from an underserved area and there is a whole different weight that goes on socio-economic backgrounds and region). So you either have to be exceedingly well rounded or be a total standout in one area.
I can't think of a single person in my undergrad program that didn't fall into one of three camps: either v. well rounded from the midwest or south, a champion athlete or musician (or child of one), or old money.
Don't want to derail the thread too much - but if the goal is a top college in the US (and especially financial aid from a top school), it is pretty essential that you do high school just right. That isn't to say that a top college is the best option, but if that is the goal, there is a way to do it.
My response was really to Malkynn wondering if people really do stress about kids activities because of their futures and I'd say the answer is yes. Because the thing is - you might not care if your child decides to go to an elite 4 year school, but you don't want them to lose the option of doing so, if that is what they want.
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My response was really to Malkynn wondering if people really do stress about kids activities because of their futures and I'd say the answer is yes. Because the thing is - you might not care if your child decides to go to an elite 4 year school, but you don't want them to lose the option of doing so, if that is what they want.
This seems to be one of those US-Canada differences, with a bit of data (http://freakonomics.com/2009/06/30/why-are-you-spending-more-time-with-your-kids/?c_page=2):
"parents’ time spent with kids has increased hugely since the early 1990’s, particularly among highly educated parents...these are the same parents whose value of time has increased relative to that of all parents, as, unsurprisingly, have their hours working for pay...They thus have less non-work time available and are spending even more of it with their kids. Why the surprising result?... demand for places at top-notch colleges has increased while the supply of places..has changed little...provided growing incentives for kids to distinguish themselves — and for their parents to spend time helping them do so. One nice test of the theory — for Canada, where there appears to be less gradation in perceived quality across universities than here. In the North, unlike here, there has been no divergence in time spent with kids by parents with differing educational attainment."
Less data backed, but more personal opinion: Canada is sometimes slow catching up on unfortunate trends, but it usually does. So it's only a matter of time until see the same striation and activity anxiety in Canadian parents showing up in anecdotes and data (if you don't already).
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My response was really to Malkynn wondering if people really do stress about kids activities because of their futures and I'd say the answer is yes. Because the thing is - you might not care if your child decides to go to an elite 4 year school, but you don't want them to lose the option of doing so, if that is what they want.
This seems to be one of those US-Canada differences, with a bit of data (http://freakonomics.com/2009/06/30/why-are-you-spending-more-time-with-your-kids/?c_page=2):
"parents’ time spent with kids has increased hugely since the early 1990’s, particularly among highly educated parents...these are the same parents whose value of time has increased relative to that of all parents, as, unsurprisingly, have their hours working for pay...They thus have less non-work time available and are spending even more of it with their kids. Why the surprising result?... demand for places at top-notch colleges has increased while the supply of places..has changed little...provided growing incentives for kids to distinguish themselves — and for their parents to spend time helping them do so. One nice test of the theory — for Canada, where there appears to be less gradation in perceived quality across universities than here. In the North, unlike here, there has been no divergence in time spent with kids by parents with differing educational attainment."
Less data backed, but more personal opinion: Canada is sometimes slow catching up on unfortunate trends, but it usually does. So it's only a matter of time until see the same striation and activity anxiety in Canadian parents showing up in anecdotes and data (if you don't already).
I'm not sure why we would follow the trend when we don't have the same motivators up here.
A kid in Canada with good grades can get into pretty much any university they apply for. A kid with bad grades has fewer options, but there are several schools with probationary programs for poor-GPA kids where they start part time with mandatory tutoring and then graduate to regular status if they prove themselves with good grades in first year.
So literally every single kid in Canada who wants to go to a world-class 4 year university can go, so it's just not something that any parent up here worries about.
Since activities have zero impact on a kids future here, we just don't have the same motivators. The only motivator for activities here is if the kid wants to do an activity. There's just no pressure.
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Following on to the existing discussion -- yeah, but if you're pushing your kid into an activity that she's not psyched about, that would seem to defeat the purpose.
If your child is passionate about something (or somethings, but eventually time will be a limitation) then I believe you should support that as much as you reasonably can. But doing stuff they're not really interested in because it'll look good on a college application sometime in the future? That seems mis-directed. At the very least, you're not allowing the kid to discover his/her own passions and interests.
(Another personal example -- my younger kid asked for private music lessons. We thought about it, and made a deal: you be in charge of your practicing, at least 5 days/week, we'll take care of the lessons. I 100% do not want to be the boss of reminding my kid to practice, and if it's something we're going to pay for and transport him for, he needs some ownership.)
I'd still encourage parents (especially of younger kids) to let their kid discover their own passions. And have older kids work on developing a kick-ass essay!
And dragging this back to the original question, Carpools! Lots'o'carpools!
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There is definitely a focus by many parents on multiple activities and sports in middle school, but at least in our high school (affluent, leafy part of Raleigh) that settled down a bit in high school. My teen applied to a couple name private schools and flagship Universities in other states. She's received substantial merit scholarships from other states that brings the cost down to in state. After touring many schools, she told us that she is going to take the best deal offered. In her opinion and mine also, she will get a good education from any of these schools and will be happy at any of them. To note - she did not get into one of our flagship universities with a 4.0 gpa, 29 act, high school sport, started a chapter of HOSA and a job so it is definitely competitive out there, but we never went overboard with scheduling her.
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This thread re. kids' activities and college admissions is fascinating. I haven't thought of that "spin" at all with my kid- perhaps it is because he is only in 1st grade. We put him in afterschool activities because both of our work schedules run until 5pm, so picking him up at 3pm isn't a workable solution, and his school provides aftercare so it's minimally disruptive.
I'm a little nervous reading the thread that our lives will go to activities hell once he gets to the 6th grade. But my state has very generous admissions criteria for in-state students so unless his grades are truly awful, all the activity stuff won't really matter. What I mean is, he will certainly be able to go to a state university if he wants to , regardless of his clubs/sports/activities and get a solid undergrad degree.
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I totally get the competitive nature of going to a top school, but I have a really hard time subscribing to it with my kid. When I look at my education, it was from all public universities. When I got my Silicon Valley job, I worked along side folks who were 100% privately educated from Top Schools. We had the same pay grades and did the same work. The big difference I saw was my own lack of college debt and my attitude that not everyone has to go to the best schools to have a good life.
Anyway, that’s what I’m trying to instill in my 7th grader now. Balance. He should do his best in school and find some activities he enjoys. But I’m trying very hard not to book too much. It’s too hard on the whole family, and it doesn’t match our values. Will my kid go to Harvard? Probably not. Will it matter. I doubt it. I just want him to be happy and secure in whatever he chooses to do.
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I totally get the competitive nature of going to a top school, but I have a really hard time subscribing to it with my kid. When I look at my education, it was from all public universities. When I got my Silicon Valley job, I worked along side folks who were 100% privately educated from Top Schools. We had the same pay grades and did the same work. The big difference I saw was my own lack of college debt and my attitude that not everyone has to go to the best schools to have a good life.
Anyway, that’s what I’m trying to instill in my 7th grader now. Balance. He should do his best in school and find some activities he enjoys. But I’m trying very hard not to book too much. It’s too hard on the whole family, and it doesn’t match our values. Will my kid go to Harvard? Probably not. Will it matter. I doubt it. I just want him to be happy and secure in whatever he chooses to do.
I could have written this. Also in silicon valley, also didn't go to top schools. Work beside people who did. Working hard to try & instill balance. However, see my comment above about the advanced math. It's not so much the activities (my kids love & play club soccer. The second they don't love it, they will stop. College applications be damned.) The academics are a real problem. If other parents are sending their kids to six hours/week of extra math training, the bar is going to be super high in the advanced classes. You can either join up, fall behind, or opt out. I haven't found a better solution, & it's maddening.
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I totally get the competitive nature of going to a top school, but I have a really hard time subscribing to it with my kid. When I look at my education, it was from all public universities. When I got my Silicon Valley job, I worked along side folks who were 100% privately educated from Top Schools. We had the same pay grades and did the same work. The big difference I saw was my own lack of college debt and my attitude that not everyone has to go to the best schools to have a good life.
Anyway, that’s what I’m trying to instill in my 7th grader now. Balance. He should do his best in school and find some activities he enjoys. But I’m trying very hard not to book too much. It’s too hard on the whole family, and it doesn’t match our values. Will my kid go to Harvard? Probably not. Will it matter. I doubt it. I just want him to be happy and secure in whatever he chooses to do.
I could have written this. Also in silicon valley, also didn't go to top schools. Work beside people who did. Working hard to try & instill balance. However, see my comment above about the advanced math. It's not so much the activities (my kids love & play club soccer. The second they don't love it, they will stop. College applications be damned.) The academics are a real problem. If other parents are sending their kids to six hours/week of extra math training, the bar is going to be super high in the advanced classes. You can either join up, fall behind, or opt out. I haven't found a better solution, & it's maddening.
I see where you’re coming from. There’s a lot of pressure to excel in a lot of schools. I can see this ramping up in 8th grade. I just had a conversation with my kid where I said I expected him to apply fir 9th grade honors English in a year. I also want him in Algebra in 8th grade. But if it gets too hard, we’ll find a tutor or drop it. I want my kid to be competitive, but the line is tricky, for sure.
At the end of the day, I tell myself that he’ll get to college, and it will be okay. I hear about the issues with stress at some of the high schools, and my primary goal is to steer clear of that.
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I totally get the competitive nature of going to a top school, but I have a really hard time subscribing to it with my kid. When I look at my education, it was from all public universities. When I got my Silicon Valley job, I worked along side folks who were 100% privately educated from Top Schools. We had the same pay grades and did the same work. The big difference I saw was my own lack of college debt and my attitude that not everyone has to go to the best schools to have a good life.
Anyway, that’s what I’m trying to instill in my 7th grader now. Balance. He should do his best in school and find some activities he enjoys. But I’m trying very hard not to book too much. It’s too hard on the whole family, and it doesn’t match our values. Will my kid go to Harvard? Probably not. Will it matter. I doubt it. I just want him to be happy and secure in whatever he chooses to do.
I could have written this. Also in silicon valley, also didn't go to top schools. Work beside people who did. Working hard to try & instill balance. However, see my comment above about the advanced math. It's not so much the activities (my kids love & play club soccer. The second they don't love it, they will stop. College applications be damned.) The academics are a real problem. If other parents are sending their kids to six hours/week of extra math training, the bar is going to be super high in the advanced classes. You can either join up, fall behind, or opt out. I haven't found a better solution, & it's maddening.
I see where you’re coming from. There’s a lot of pressure to excel in a lot of schools. I can see this ramping up in 8th grade. I just had a conversation with my kid where I said I expected him to apply fir 9th grade honors English in a year. I also want him in Algebra in 8th grade. But if it gets too hard, we’ll find a tutor or drop it. I want my kid to be competitive, but the line is tricky, for sure.
At the end of the day, I tell myself that he’ll get to college, and it will be okay. I hear about the issues with stress at some of the high schools, and my primary goal is to steer clear of that.
Why do you want him in advanced track English? Just curious. We are registering my 7th grader for classes next year and with teacher recommendation they can take all of their core classes (math, science, English and SS) on advanced/honors track. He wants to take them all and I don’t want to discourage him. But I know how overwhelming it gets in high school. And he is very involved in activities.....and he’s very social. I want him to have balance and I’m not sure how necessary it even is to have all of those honors classes. We live in the Midwest and while it’s definitely competitive, it’s not like it is in SValley.
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BTDT. Seems pretty normal for a two income family with kids. We went for decades with zero me time. It's rough, but you deal. We didn't do the kids' activities only because we were thinking it was required for college (although it's good), but because the kids loved doing them and got a lot out of them.
If you can't change your work hours, you could limit the kid activities or outsource some of your house-related stuff, which of course, will cost money.
My younger kid is away at college as a freshman. All five of the elder relatives we were caring for passed away within a few years of each other. Honestly, it's weird. All the sudden I have time for myself, but to be honest, I miss her a lot, and I don't enjoy the me time nearly as much as I thought I would. I will also adjust given time.
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@Pigeon: Our middle school doesn’t offer a lot in terms of advanced classes. I’ve seen a lot of research showing the taking Algebra in 8th grade is great for college readiness, if your kid is ready for it. The application for honors English is one of the first advanced applications I’ve seen at our high school. Math and English skills are my priority when thinking about college readiness. If my kid pushes back, we’ll regroup. My goal is to run a balance between high expectations and stress management.
Advanced classes in all core subjects sounds like a lot for a middle schooler, IMO. We don’t have that option here. If I were posed with that, I’d probably ask my kid to pick 2 of 3 for advanced placement, or I’d set the expectation that it’s ok to drop something if it gets too crazy. If my kid wanted to do a bunch of activities on top of advanced classes, I’d probably limit him.
This is all seriously challenging. Hard to know the best answer. For us, we’ve tried to use “family sanity” as our guidepost.
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@Pigeon: Our middle school doesn’t offer a lot in terms of advanced classes. I’ve seen a lot of research showing the taking Algebra in 8th grade is great for college readiness, if your kid is ready for it. The application for honors English is one of the first advanced applications I’ve seen at our high school. Math and English skills are my priority when thinking about college readiness. If my kid pushes back, we’ll regroup. My goal is to run a balance between high expectations and stress management.
Thanks to my dad being a math major, I was pushed hard to take more advance math options starting with pre-algebra in 6th grade. My dad was able to put quite a bit of time/effort into tutoring me in the evenings and over the summers because my mom was a SAHM so when he came home at night he didn't have to worry about dinner, laundry, lunches for the next day, etc. I honestly didn't like it much at the time but it made a HUGE difference with college. I had taken BC Calculus in HS and scored well on the AP exam, so I went into college with two semesters of Algebra credit. This was good for two reasons. First, Calc II was one of the most frequently failed classes at my university, I got to skip it and not deal with that stress. Two, I initially started college wanting to do an international relations major, then changed my mind and decided to do a STEM major instead. I didn't take any math classes my freshman year b/c hey, they weren't required for an IR major. But Calc I/II were prereqs for a LOT of the science classes, and having the credits for them already meant I could jump right into taking classes for my science major in year 2 of university instead of futzing around with intro calculus and having to delay other classes. Basically, those credits gave me the freedom to change my mind about majors and still graduate in four years with a solid degree. For this reason, I am somewhat loathe not to work hard to give my kid a leg up in these kind of areas.
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Lots of good ideas and back-and-forth here! I think it's always healthy to have these sorts of discussions.
My wife and I continue to talk, but it seems like we're pretty much on the same page: "Plow through as intensely as possible, and f'ing save as much as possible." This is probably our best window to totally kill it. If either of us dials back now, we might never get this perfect window of earnings/benefits ever again. And we're not willing to trade away more total years of working just for some temporary relief, at least not yet. But that time may come.
We have increased our net worth about $180K in the past 30 months. If we can do that again, we'll be damn close to $500K by mid/late 2021, and that's not THAT far away.
I just need to accept that I am getting older and I need more sleep and I'm not the stud (haha) I used to be, and that I'm always going to be tired for the next few years. Slowing down at 50 still seems doable though, and would be better than 90% of other people's retirement outcomes.
Both of our kiddos are very smart (mostly A's and score high on testing) and will likely earn scholarships. We figure by tossing in a sport or music activity, plus things like Beta Club/National Honors Society, they will have good college resumes. We won't have a ton of college money saved up, but at least $15K to $20K for each of them to help defray costs. Combined with scholarships, it could be enough.
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Good news: Money accumulates faster as time advances. If it took 30 months, It'll take a lot less now.
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Good news: Money accumulates faster as time advances. If it took 30 months, It'll take a lot less now.
Yep, absolutely. I still tend to be conservative with my mental goalposts just to avoid disappointment (even though my written projections assume 7% returns and exceed what I started).
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@sjc0816 - not original poster about advanced English, but for us, the advanced math is their placement given by the school based on test scores. It's not something we're selecting. They only have one advanced class available in 6th & 7th grade at their school (the math), so it's not all of their core classes.
@Nick_Miller - it's a debate I have with myself all.the.time. I think you're right to press on now, but know when you are unwilling to do so, and discuss part time or other options.
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As if you need yet another reply (but when is there really too many helpful supportive posts?) My home is like your home. We are tired of the grind, tired of getting up at 5:15 to get kids ready for school, tired of crap jobs (they pay well, but are nothing but annoying). I often think of the comedian Louis C.K. talking about life at 40. No one delivers hot meals to 40 year olds, no one every says "I helped a 40 year old man today, and I feel so good about that.".... it's just "Do your job, a-hole". It sure feels like that, we are totally invisible and expected to do it all.
I'm starting to realize that the world will not give us breaks, we simply have to take them. I started taking regular time off from work, but at my job, we earn so many hours per paycheck that we can take whenever. I started buying myself little rewards for my work - before I was all about saving all I could, but I can't live like that. I ended up just wanting to die. There is a lot of good stuff in these posts, lots of ideas to help you look at each hour of your day and think of something that might make it suck less - have some music you love on in the mornings when you have to get up, do some stretches here and there, bring in some cheerful decor (you can get a lot of that at the dollar store, doesn't have to break the bank). Just whatever it takes to make it through. We did that in the army, and this is no different...we are just stuck with this until something gives.
I did one other thing, I let my parents know that I would not be able to answer messages immediately with all I have to do every day, and maybe not even the same day. I did this in a polite way, because if I didn't say something, they only email more often and get more persistent. Their problems, their loneliness, frankly, are not mine. I have a full plate, and damnit, they were in this boat once, they should know better. They both responded that they understood - and making that healthy barrier there made all the difference in the world.
I wish you the best, I feel ya, I'm with ya, I can relate.... the struggle is real. Find those shining moments and make a point to enjoy them. Otherwise it feels like you're trying to drink from a firehose.
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Lots of good ideas and back-and-forth here! I think it's always healthy to have these sorts of discussions.
My wife and I continue to talk, but it seems like we're pretty much on the same page: "Plow through as intensely as possible, and f'ing save as much as possible." This is probably our best window to totally kill it. If either of us dials back now, we might never get this perfect window of earnings/benefits ever again. And we're not willing to trade away more total years of working just for some temporary relief, at least not yet. But that time may come.
We have increased our net worth about $180K in the past 30 months. If we can do that again, we'll be damn close to $500K by mid/late 2021, and that's not THAT far away.
I just need to accept that I am getting older and I need more sleep and I'm not the stud (haha) I used to be, and that I'm always going to be tired for the next few years. Slowing down at 50 still seems doable though, and would be better than 90% of other people's retirement outcomes.
Both of our kiddos are very smart (mostly A's and score high on testing) and will likely earn scholarships. We figure by tossing in a sport or music activity, plus things like Beta Club/National Honors Society, they will have good college resumes. We won't have a ton of college money saved up, but at least $15K to $20K for each of them to help defray costs. Combined with scholarships, it could be enough.
I wish you luck with this, but I seriously caution you to come up with a creative plan B in case it doesn't work out.
Maybe another few years of grinding is doable for you, but it might not be. Burnout has a way of blowing up in your face all of a sudden.
I'm not saying this will happen, but it could, and it's smart to have an alternative "what if" path well planned out with intelligently calculated math to know exactly how you would handle it if you suddenly realized that you can't continue on the way you are going.
I know that sounds dramatic, it's really not meant to be, I'm only suggesting you work through the option and have a plan in case the wheels fall off, which can happen to anyone.
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Are you able to move really close to the school so that the kids can go there by themselves?
That has saved our sanity with kids' activities.
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We could move closer, but houses close to the schools cost about twice that of our current home, and are generally older (think 80-100 years old). I just can’t stomach having a $320k mortgage at this stage of our lives. Our monthly payment would double.
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Don't want to derail the thread too much - but if the goal is a top college in the US (and especially financial aid from a top school), it is pretty essential that you do high school just right. That isn't to say that a top college is the best option, but if that is the goal, there is a way to do it.
My response was really to Malkynn wondering if people really do stress about kids activities because of their futures and I'd say the answer is yes. Because the thing is - you might not care if your child decides to go to an elite 4 year school, but you don't want them to lose the option of doing so, if that is what they want.
Holy fuck. That's completely bonkers. And then for what?
I taught graduate school at an Ivy for 10 years (moonlighted at another Ivy and at MIT) and during the last few years the quality of the students just fell into the toilet. Everyone I broached the topic with agreed, from law professors to English profs (one said that of a class of 30 students in a Jane Austen class, only one had read Jane Austen in high school on their own…these are English majors!!!) to chemistry profs. Something has happened that's just gutted these kids. It's probably video games, but it's also these shitty activities. They can't think on their own. When I was 13, I'd bicycle to the library and pick up a backpack worth of books on random subjects. I didn't read every one, but I read a lot of them.
And then there's schools. Apart from the ludicrous money to be paid to them (which we can afford, but still).
In my daughter's case, I'd like her to get a liberal arts degree (she's good at science, but it isn't her thing and my wife learned her lesson doing the wrong thing working as an engineer) but with identity politics on the rise everywhere, her education will likely be
garbage. When I was a student, Marxism was prevalent and while that sold a fake bill of goods too, at least we learned a ton about how economy drives everything, so it had a bit of utility.
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Kids need free time and to learn how to manage their time. Also during summer a part time job is a great learning experience.
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We could move closer, but houses close to the schools cost about twice that of our current home, and are generally older (think 80-100 years old). I just can’t stomach having a $320k mortgage at this stage of our lives. Our monthly payment would double.
Can you sell your place and rent? That would increase your cash, get you closer and give shorten your timeframe.
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The most mustachian thing parents could do for their kid is insist on the kid learning German. Anyone who speaks German can go to university there for free. Can’t beat that.
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Not sure if this is helpful, but here goes:
Deep into my own mid-life slog, which lasted about 15 years, I put myself on what I called the "six-month plan". As in, being secure in the knowledge that my employment and sanity could likely hold out for the next six months. At any point, it was all that I could handle. JUST THE NEXT SIX MONTHS.
Then, lo and behold, each month turned into multiple six-month periods, which turned into years. The "six-month plan" was a sliding measurement that kept on sliding along.
DH and I are now looking at doing one last victory-lap year before retiring, and FWIW, the following observations come to mind, not all of which make any sense when put side-by-side:
- looking back, time seems to have just BLASTED by.
- looking ahead, we are still fearful of turning off the Great Fire Hose of Cash.
- try to extricate yourself from draining or toxic relationships, even if they are with family.
- along those lines, don't allow other family members to judge you for making smart choices but "not doing enough for others": what are their means, and what are THEY doing, if they feel they can judge?
- kids grow up and (hopefully) leave the nest and become independent. Parents die. This time of your life will feel like a blip. A grinding, painful blip, but a blip nonetheless.
- but, there are moments of beauty and grace. Revel in them, because you need to appreciate how good you have it: is your health good, can you walk, hear, see ....? count your blessings, as trite as that might sound. This could likely be a time that you will look back upon fondly, and think: "wow - even with all that, we really had it good, didn't we?"
- you're a Mustachian, so you are already head and shoulders above the fray. Know that, and appreciate it. Continue to apply the principles and optimize when and where you can.
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I wrote a similar post recently and have been in this mid-life slog for the last few years. My kids are 8th and 5th grade and activities, doctors appointments for physical therapy and allergy shots are so overwhelming for me. I also work 4 days a week and my husband travels extensively, sometimes for months at a time.
I really like meghan88's reply, I have started doing somewhat of the same thing, thinking ok 6 months from now allergy shots will only be once a month, therapy will be done....of course it seems like sometimes things replace those other responsibilities, however it still helps me to not become overwhelmed in my head.
I also went from working mostly 5 days per week to working 4 days a week and once a month 3 days a week. HUGE improvement in my quality of life. I only just went to full time work in the last couple years thinking well the kids are older and I am at the peak of my income, I can handle this. No, I could not...I went into a serious funk and burn out.
I honestly do not know of any of my friends where they have 2 kids and 2 full time jobs that they are happy and feel like they are living their best life. It is just hard, physically draining, and there just aren't enough hours in the day.
The kids activities I am starting to evaluate as well, I was letting my daughter do dance competitions and horse shows, last spring it was rare we had a free weekend and I set some new ground rules, one weekend event a month. I was tired of never having a weekend to myself or having time with my husband. One of my girls does dance and horse back riding, she loves them and she will likely continue with them as an adult, I cannot imagine taking those away from her, but I have had to set limits.
I will also say trying to get paid help on a part time basis in the evenings is not easy at all. I have interviewed 4 people in the last 4 months to try to get someone to help with all of my kids appointments and have come up empty handed. It sounds good on paper, but not easy to find.
Another thing that has helped tremendously but does cost money (although you could travel hack or try to do as frugally as possible), we plan some sort of trip every 3 months. Either a full week or just a long weekend. It gives me something to look forward to and gives us unique experiences as a family. I just started doing this the last 2 years and it has been amazing.
I think the best advice you have had is to have a plan B if either of you really start giving out. I didn't have that plan and had to wade through what I was going to do in the midst of feeling overwhelmed. Lastly, you are not alone, looking through these posts it looks like there are quite a few of us dual income with kids that are struggling through.