What is "walkable" or "bikeable?"

[startingsmall]

My husband and I just returned home from 10 days in Europe and I FELL IN LOVE with the complete lack of need for cars. We currently live in an area that's extremely pedestrian/bike unfriendly (rural NC, ~4 miles from the nearest business which is a Dollar General, all on 55-mph 2-lane roads with no shoulder/sidewalk/bike lane) but we're planning to relocate in 3-5 years. I'd like to drive less once we relocate. 

At the time we relocate, we'll be semi-FIREd. Our income will come from me working PT/freelance from home, so we don't really need to take jobs into account. Currently considering Wilmington, NC (given my desire to do shorebird volunteer work during FIRE and proximity to husband's family), although that isn't set in stone. We don't expect to be completely car-free, but I'd like to walk or bike some/most of the time. (Travel for my desired volunteer work will surely require a car, so we'll probably still keep 2 cars... but the goal would be to dramatically decrease the miles we're putting on them.)

So... the real question is: what factors would you consider when evaluating the walkability or bikeability of a place?

My husband looks to the "downtown" of any city (for example, uptown Charlotte or the Wilmington Riverfront). In my experience, though, the high-density/trendy/downtown area of many smaller cities is basically a combination of office buildings, bars, restaurants, and maybe some boutiques. The things you would actually want/need on a regular basis are often located outside of the main "downtown," presumably due to real estate costs. Therefore, I'm thinking a more suburban area may work better than downtown, IF you carefully select a neighborhood for proximity to he things you need.

Right now, I'm thinking that "reachable locations" should include: grocery store, pharmacy, library, trail/park/beach/etc, coffee shop (to get outside of the house for work), and at least one or two affordable restaurants. I'm fine with driving to things like doctor's offices, etc.... but being able to walk or bike to the places I visit on a semi-regular basis would be awesome.

Has anyone else given this any thought? Is my logic sound? What am I forgetting?

I just can't see paying the HCOL to live in a trendy/HCOL/downtown area when we won't be reaping the financial benefits of working in that area.

[Kris]

I live in an area that allows me to walk most of the time. Your list is pretty good, I’d say, and yes, I have all those things in walking distance. The only addition I would make is a hardware store, if you can swing it. And a post office is good, too.

Edit: my neighborhood’s walkability score is 79, bike-ability 69.

[APowers]

For me, it's "under 10 minutes."

"Walkable"-- can I walk out the door and be there in 10 minutes or less of a brisk walk? For me, this ends up being about a 1/2 mile radius.

"Bikeable"-- can I jump on my bike and be there in 10 minutes or less of a fast-but-not-strenuous ride? For me, this ends up being about a 2.5 mile radius (assuming there is a reasonably safe route).

You may have a different idea of how long you like to walk before considering it "too far"-- I know there are a lot of folks here who commute on their bicycle 10-30 miles each way and don't consider that unreasonable.

Also take into consideration that you may combine trips and increase your "*ability" range. For example, if you work at a coffee shop, and the grocery store is only another mile from there, that may put your grocery errands in bikeability range, even though it's technically a mile too far from your home base (since you can bike there from "work" before going home.

[dcheesi]

The walkscore site defaults to 20min travel time. But I tend to think that 15 minutes on foot is more realistic for me; I can go longer, of course, but at that point it's something I'm planning and making time for, not a casual errand undertaken on a whim.

[BECABECA]

For me bikeable is anything up to 2 hours one way as long as it’s along one of the two bike paths I live by. It’s really pleasant to travel along them, far removed from the noise of cars. However I don’t consider biking to something that requires only 10 minutes bike ride but on the shoulder on a busy road.

[rothwem]

Haha have you been to Wilmington? It’s one of the least bikeable towns I’ve ever been to, the sprawl is big so that all of the service staff have places to live away from the rich landowners and tourists. I do think your assessment about downtowns is dead on—a lot of the downtown areas are just office buildings, restaurants and bars. Not so many grocery or hardware stores or anything actually useful, the margins on those products are too low to support the sizable store required in a high rent downtown area. 

In NC, the only real walkable towns I can think or are Carrboro/Chapel Hill and Ocracoke, but Ocracoke is an island that just got flattened and Carrboro is a SMALL college town with its own set of annoyances.

[startingsmall]

Haha have you been to Wilmington? It’s one of the least bikeable towns I’ve ever been to, the sprawl is big so that all of the service staff have places to live away from the rich landowners and tourists. I do think your assessment about downtowns is dead on—a lot of the downtown areas are just office buildings, restaurants and bars. Not so many grocery or hardware stores or anything actually useful, the margins on those products are too low to support the sizable store required in a high rent downtown area. 

In NC, the only real walkable towns I can think or are Carrboro/Chapel Hill and Ocracoke, but Ocracoke is an island that just got flattened and Carrboro is a SMALL college town with its own set of annoyances.

I realize that Wilmington is far from ideal, but given my desire to be somewhere coastal (so that I can finally get involved in shorebird conservation) and husband's desire to be in a "city" (where he can get involved in issues surrounding racism, poverty, etc) near his family, it's the best compromise we can come up with!

I feel like there are pockets of Wilmington that would work for us.... maybe Pine Valley or that general area? True, it's definitely not perfect, but it will be a huge improvement over the current situation.

[startingsmall]

I'm loving everyone's input on this topic... thank you!! Lots of excellent food for thought.

I regularly biked 4.5 miles each way to class during veterinary school, but I was younger then! I think "bikeable" for me is probably 3 miles on typical roads (longer if it's an appealing bike path or neighborhood where the journey is enjoyable). Beyond that distance, I'd be more inclined to get lazy and drive. I'm probably more likely to bike than walk even short distances, honestly... so it looks like I need to focus on what's within 3 miles on bikeable roads!

[AccidentialMustache]

Look for a smaller college town that may otherwise fit your bill. The college kids and professors will help drive some lean left, so you'll get better public transit/bike lanes/walkability. Smaller city/town will avoid the dense "food desert" of a large urban core -- or at least constrain the downtown to a few blocks, so that its feasible to put in a hardware store/grocery outside of it.

[Cranky]

I think you have to actually look at a particular location to see if it’s “walkable” for *you*.

I don’t drive and I have a very clear sense of what’s walkable. I try to walk about 3 miles/day, so that’s my basic range. I can easily get to my doctor and dentist, a neighborhood grocery store, several drugstores, the library, Family Dollar, a bunch of fast food places, my hair dresser, etc. Oddly, my neighborhood has a low “walkability score” the last time I looked, and not a lot of adults walk so much.

[35andFI]

It depends on what you are willing to walk/bike.
For me that would probably be work within 10 miles.
I’m also young, single, and fairly fit.

I live in a bicycle unfriendly area but use my bike every day.
I’m only 2.5 miles from work but I take a safer 4.5 mile route.

There is a nice downtown area less than 5 miles away too.
Grocery stores are the hardest at the moment. I bike 8.5 miles each way currently.
That’ll change one they finish the ShopRite that they’re putting up 2.5 miles away.

Edit: Just checked the walkscore website and it said walk score of 27 and bike score of 37 for where I live.

[Papa bear]

I’d look into older suburbs of metro areas.  Places that may have been a a city or village before the center city encroached on its way out.

Walkable in my suburb of metro area.  Grocery, parks and riverfront, coffee shops, a bars and restaurants, ice cream shops, library, schools, entertainment areas for festivals or events, post office, banks, hardware store, work.  And this is all with a 56 walk score.  I’ve been in more walkable areas, but a grocery store is a game changer.  I’d rather have a walkable grocery than an extra dozen bars and restaurants nearby. 

I still need to drive for big box hardware stores, retail space, rec center, kids sports activities. 


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[startingsmall]

The mentions of "Walk Score" had me curious....

Current home: Walk Score = 0
Area that we've been considering: Walk Score = 20-50, depending on exact location

i'm more interested in biking than walking, but at least this suggests we're moving in the right direction. And I love the fact that walkscore.com gives such easy-to-view maps!!!

[AccidentialMustache]

Walk = 52, Transit = 38, Bike = 64 for me in my college town. We do prioritize non-car transit though so that's no surprise.

This said, there's some rentals we were looking at buying that are 1 house, 1 church, 1 road, and 1 parking lot (... and the parking lot is half or more the distance) away from a meijer, multiple resturants, multiple banks, a bit further and you get daycare(s), medical, dentist, etc... but it has a walk score of 42.

So I guess what I'm saying is... don't just trust the numbers. They are a good guide but not perfect.

[Ynari]

For me it's not just about how far things are/how good is the infrastructure, but how many people actually walk/bike. We live in an apartment on a warehouse street (missing some sidewalks) near a mid-sized urban center, and it feels walkable because there are people walking. If I go to the urban center at 9pm on a weeknight, the walk is well-lit and there are other people around.

For bikeable, I like to think about the actual percentage of bike commuters, but it also depends so much on exact neighborhood. When I lived in Chicago, I lived on what might have been the Bicycle Highway even though it was just a road like any other. I was often in a group of 20 people when I stopped at a stoplight. That was bikeable. Where I live now, I don't consider it bikeable. There's one main bike path that cuts through the district, but if your home/your destination is not on the bikepath, there are no other bikers. I hate biking to the same urban center I feel very comfortable walking to.

[honeybbq]

walk scores over 80. :D

[EscapedApe]

For me, there are a few factors that determine a route's "bikeability".

• "Can I get there at least as fast by bike as by car?"
• "Are there safe and accessible options (i.e. bike lanes, a paved shoulder, or navigable dirt paths) on the route?"
• "Do current weather conditions admit riding without climate control or mechanical assistance?"

The nice thing about riding a bike or walking is that your "engine" gets better the more you use it. Your riding/walking time decreases as your health improves and you find more efficient routes and shortcuts, and you become better-adapted to weather extremes like cold, heat, or high winds.

When I'm considering making a habit of riding to a particular place, I usually do a test ride without time constraints (such as on a weekend). That gives me a good idea of how much time it takes, and what I need to prepare for on the way.

[Boofinator]

I lived in Raleigh for a year when I was younger, and loved that city for the great bikeability (I didn't actually bike, but I ran everywhere at the time on the sprawling network of paved pedestrian trails). The weather in Raleigh I felt was close to perfect for biking, not getting too hot in the summers or cold during the winters.

I'd suggest visiting your prospective cities' websites for transportation options, particularly bicycle infrastructure. This has helped me immensely, and my current city has great bicycle paths and public transport for when I'm feeling lazy and not in a hurry.

[Brother Esau]

Interesting question. I was just in Amsterdam and everybody cycles there...and I mean everybody. It is quite flat and there are many bike lanes. I guess the only thing that would limit you is your stamina or how long you're willing to be on a bike.

[TrMama]

Interesting question. I was just in Amsterdam and everybody cycles there...and I mean everybody. It is quite flat and there are many bike lanes. I guess the only thing that would limit you is your stamina or how long you're willing to be on a bike.

Elevation changes are important. I have no idea if this is factored into walk/bike scores though. I live in BC and while most of the city is bikeable, when we were looking at houses there were a few locations I crossed off our list immediately because they're on the top of steep hills. We specifically picked a house near the bottom of a hill ;-)

I'd also seriously reconsider biking/walking to the doctor. I bike a lot and have ridden to the doctor. The cardiologist especially gives me the most amazing service when I show up in bike gear. If you have to visit the cardiologist, it's less sucky when they roll out the red carpet for you.

[blingwrx]

Have you ever considered getting an electric bike. This can extend your bike range from 3 miles to up to 15 miles. You can still get a work out if you use the pedal assist and don’t just cruise the whole way.

My e-bike has changed my life I do all errands in within a 10 mile radius on my bike now. I only drive if I need to carry more than my bike can hold or if the weather is bad. I save a lot of money on gas and wear and tear on the car. A lot of times biking is even faster, I live in a congested city so there’s always traffic and parking can be a challenge, but not a problem for a bike.

The main thing to consider here is making sure your city has safe roads to bike on.

[habanero]

The main factor for something being "bikable" / "walkable" / "runnable" is mainly a function of who you ask, their general attitude towards the activity, the daily schedule and last but not least - how fit they are. I live about 4 miles from work but when biking either direction I generally make detours to double, triple etc the distance to get some meaningful exercise out of it. Otherwise it's just too short for my taste. I work at about 10 feet above sea level and live at 450 feet above btw. For walking  / running the shortest route is generally fine. Walking takes bit under an hour at a brisk pace, running I can get down to about 30 minutes (+shower/changing).

If you have enough time and don't have to bring kids etc almost anything can be biked as long there is some infrastructure in place to do so (as in a reasonably safe and pleasant route to bike). Shower/changing facilites at work can also be a big issue - it is most definitively for me (and my coworkers...)

An e-bike can be a good substitute for fitness - but dependent on type and local regulations they aren't really faster than a regular bike except when going uphill.

The bottom line is that what looks bikable and not is likely to change significantly after biking for some time as one gets more used to it and gets fitter.

I am still baffled by people living in the same city as I do who claim that between their personal A and B biking isn't an option due to <fill in reason>. It's almost always an option. Also when biking adding some distance for a more pleasant ride doesn't really matter that much - an extra mile can be done in say 3-5 minutes give or take some depending on who you ask and general conditions while an extra mile walking can be 15 minutes extra.

And after doing it for some time and with the correct equipment the weather doesn't really matter any longer.

I do of course realize that different people have different attitudes towards this and also differ in how much they want to / like to work out, but it is generally first and foremost a question of attitude - not distance, elevation or weather. All those can be dealt with.

[Kl285528]

you mentioned Charlotte, NC - not sure if that is close enough to the coast, but I live in an in-town south Charlotte location that is 4 miles to uptown, and is 5 blocks or so from Park Road Shopping Center - groceries, restaurants and lots more - the bike route is entirely on a car free greenway until you get to uptown - walkable score of 70, and bikeable of 69 - it's the main reason my wife and I made the decision to tear down our house and rebuild on the same lot! - we love where we live!

also, there is the South End area with light rail and a bike and running path that is very convenient, and feels more urban than where I live - it is walk and bike friendly too, and filled with young professional folks

[Jouer]

Downtown adjacent is your best bet. Far enough from downtown that you are away from the skyscrapers but not far enough away into the 'burbs or rural that you need to drive to get anywhere. My walk score is 98!

[dougules]

I live in a neighborhood kind of like what you're describing.  We can walk or bike to a lot of the places we want to go, but it's definitely not made with biking or walking in mind.  There definitely are a lot of amenities that aren't within walking distance of our actual downtown, so in some ways our neighborhood is just as if not more convenient. 

One question is would you be close to people you would like to hang out with?  A lot of my friends live scattered out in areas that are not within walking and biking distance so I have a tendency not to see them as much.  I don't really have a lot in common with my neighbors, so sometimes it feels a little isolating.  If you make friends easily with a wide range of different people it may not be an issue. 

Another one is whether or not you mind being the only person walking.  Honestly it can get old living in a place where walking as a form of transportation is viewed as weird and you're the only person who's doing it.  YMMV but it's something to consider. 

[Blackadder]

I love this thread, useful insights and lots of quotable stuff. I like the insight that if you see a lot of pedestrians or cyclists, it's probably a good place of cyclists. Also because the drivers will be expecting bikes on the road and be used to them, so more awareness, higher safety and less being-honked-at just for being on the road, unlike in other places.

What downtown, suburbs etc. means in terms of (walk|bike)ability can differ a lot by location/region/country IMO. What I'd do (in fact doing it right now) is examine my (expected) errands for frequency, to make a list based on what I actually (want to) do, taking into account some contingencies for times when I might be less fit/ill. I'll share my list:

- daily: bakery, park - contingency: pharmacy
- 1-2 times a week: non-Costco* groceries/consumables (e.g. ethnic grocer, in case of bad (meal) planning or very perishable food), ability to post letters** - contingency: General Practitioner
- (bi-)weekly: Costco run, post office
- monthly: hardware store, bicycle repair/electronics/clothes shops, staples/consumables with a long shelf life, other medical specialists
- (hopefully) less frequent: attorney/notary/others.

Then you know how often you would have to go where, and can look at how long to ride/walk somewhere is acceptable to you how frequently, taking account the specifics of the places to go, whether it would be mostly planned/unexpected, etc., so your list could look like this for a person like me:

- 5 mins walk/2 mins bike ride: bakery, pharmacy
- 15/5 mins: park, ethnic grocer, convenience store, GP
- 40/15 mins bike ride: post office, Costco (slower when hauling the trailer)
- no walking/25 mins bike ride: hardware store, bicycle repair/electronics/clothes shops, non-Costco-staples/consumables with a long shelf life, other medical specialists
- up to 40 mins of biking (public transit starting to become a good default here): attorney/notary/others

To get from mins to distance, I calculate 5kph (3mph) for walking, and 15kph (10mph) for biking (both at a leisurely pace), so the categories' distances would be: 5/2: 0.4km (1/4mi), 15/5: 1.25km (0.6mi), 40/15: 3.2km (2mi), -/25: 6.25km (4mi), -/40: 10km (6.2mi).

I would then use this personal list to examine potential living locations on their bikeability according to my own criteria.

*) In my post, replace "Costco" by the Aldi/Lidl or other bulk/discount groceries store of your preference (I also include fresh food here)
**) Outside the US, many postal services don't pick up mail from your house. Instead, there are mailboxes distributed around town. You want to live near one (or a post office). The internet will of course make this less relevant as years pass.

[habanero]

Yes, it's true the postal service does not pick up letters from our mailboxes. We use the internet instead for everything (including stuff like getting a mortgage, applying for school/kindergarden for the kids, submitting a building application for an add-on to the house, getting a new credit card, filing tax forms etcetcetc). Can't remember the last time I sent a letter. That has been 5 if not 10 years since I had to do.

But yes, living close to a post office will eventually become less relevant in countries with less developed on-line services. The level of irrelevance it can reach can be hard to grasp for someone who has never lived in a country where pretty much everything is on-line, self-service and no papers with signatures need to be sent here or there to carry out everyday life.

[Blackadder]

... countries with less developed on-line services.
... can be hard to grasp for someone who has never lived in a country where pretty much everything is on-line...

Okayyy... so the things you mentioned (mortgage, official applications, etc.) are more or less the only stuff we need to post letters for, as well. Apparently, you and I both live in underdeveloped countries...

Edit: reduced snark

[StarBright]

Haha have you been to Wilmington? It’s one of the least bikeable towns I’ve ever been to, the sprawl is big so that all of the service staff have places to live away from the rich landowners and tourists. I do think your assessment about downtowns is dead on—a lot of the downtown areas are just office buildings, restaurants and bars. Not so many grocery or hardware stores or anything actually useful, the margins on those products are too low to support the sizable store required in a high rent downtown area. 

In NC, the only real walkable towns I can think or are Carrboro/Chapel Hill and Ocracoke, but Ocracoke is an island that just got flattened and Carrboro is a SMALL college town with its own set of annoyances.

Former NCer here. Agree that Carrboro/Chapel Hill is VERY walkable (and has free public transportation!). But large sections of Durham and Raleigh and also a nearby town called Hillsborough are quite walkable too. I lived in Hillsborough for a few years and it was like a little walkable paradise!

[koshtra]

Don't neglect "transit spines" -- transit routes that run every five minutes or so. Those can dramatically increase walkability, if you live near one. Bus routes that run every half hour are useless, but a really frequent transit route puts you within "walking distance" of all kinds of things.

The usefulness of transit is all about frequency.

[Boofinator]

Bus routes that run every half hour are useless....

The usefulness of transit is all about frequency.

I ride a bus almost daily, and the frequency is about one bus per half hour. I account for this by knowing the bus schedule, and getting to the stop five minutes before the bus arrives. This is really not much of an inconvenience (except on the very rare days that I miss my bus).

If my bus ran every five minutes, most of those buses would probably run empty.

[startingsmall]

Thank you all so much for all of the excellent comments!  Definitely some great food for thought in here.

I know that Charlotte and various Raleigh/Durham areas would be great for bikeability, but my primary goal in becoming a veterinarian was to go into seabird rehab/conservation and I've not had the opportunity to do that as paid work. So, my primary FIRE goal is to do seabird work on either a paid or volunteer basis. Obviously, that significantly limits locations!

Downtown adjacent is your best bet. Far enough from downtown that you are away from the skyscrapers but not far enough away into the 'burbs or rural that you need to drive to get anywhere. My walk score is 98!

I really like the "downtown adjacent" concept! Will definitely keep this in mind.

The main factor for something being "bikable" / "walkable" / "runnable" is mainly a function of who you ask, their general attitude towards the activity, the daily schedule and last but not least - how fit they are.

While I definitely agree with those factors, I think infrastructure is a far bigger factor (at least in my area). I could not bike anywhere from my current house without traveling at least 3-4 miles on a busy 2-lane 55-mph road with no shoulders. There is NO WAY that I'm doing that, no matter how fit I am. If I lived in an area with bike paths, it would be a completely different story.

So, when I talk about being able to reach a specific list of destinations, it's less about measuring the distance between a potential home and those destinations, and more about the ability to map out a bike-friendly route between home and the destination that doesn't involve significant unsafe (or terrifying) sections.

[jpdx]

I just want to say you are asking the right question! Place matters!

I moved to a walkable place and my family loves it. We can accomplish 80% of errands while leaving the car parked in the driveway. Useful things like groceries, post office, hair cuts, banks, restaurants, coffee shops, schools, library, small movie theater, hardware store, drugstore, light rail, farmers market, and great parks — all in 10 minute walk or bike ride.

This is not a downtown, this is a neighborhood with leafy, tree lined streets with cute single-family homes. Walkable means more than a high WalkScore on the map, it means a place that is actually pleasant and safe to walk, built on the human scale (usual characteristics are small blocks, sidewalks, street trees, and slow speed limits). Bikeable usually means all of the above, but add dedicated bike routes/lanes, bike parking, and a culture that is accepting of people riding bikes on the street.

It is possible to find places like this within the US, but have to be willing/able to spend more on housing, and you will get less house for your money. Worth it though!

[habanero]

When we moved out in the 'burbs a few years ago I had a few criteria:
- work within biking distance
- proximity to public transport (my GF uses that for work daily)
- living on the same side of the city as work to avoid commuting through the center in peak hours.

One I did end up with despite not planning for it, but for which I am very happy is proximity to a decent grocery store. It is a 2 minute walk for me. This is gold as it pretty much is the only facility I need on a regular basis. I also started running/walking to work after we moved - luckily this is also within my comfort range.

Now the kids are older we don't need the car for getting kids to day care every day which is golden and the school is 5 minutes walk away.

All combined, the car spend most of its days parked in the garage all day. I have picked up sports climbing to which I generally drive (its bikable / busable if needed, however).

All in all - life, priorities and hobbies are prone to change over the years. So what is important to have within a short distance might also change. But proximity to a grocery store and public transport probably never goes out of style.

[Kl285528]

Oooh. I just thought of something - check out Hilton Head, SC.  Bike paths everywhere. Had a vacation there recently, and loved biking everywhere on dedicated paths.

from this website - https://www.hiltonheadisland.org/see-do/biking/biking-maps

Future Plans for Bike Programs and Paths
Recognized as one of just 21 U.S. communities to achieve the Gold Level Bicycle Friendly Community Award from the League of American Bicyclists, Hilton Head Island is committed to improving biking conditions through its investment in bicycling promotion, education, infrastructure, and pro-bicycling policies. In fact, Hilton Head Island is the only Gold Level community in the Southeast and one of only two towns on the East Coast to receive this designation.

[dougules]

Have you considered living in Savannah or Charleston?  Their downtowns definitely have a lot of fluffy useless stuff, but I think they're probably reasonably practical also.  It might be more expensive to live there, but sometimes you get what you pay for. 

Are you attached to staying near NC or are you looking more broadly?

[StarBright]

I know you didn't start this thread asking for places to live - but more about walkability.

But - near the ocean and decently walkable in NC, are you familiar with the New Bern area?  New Bern is walkable and gorgeous.

[startingsmall]

Oooh. I just thought of something - check out Hilton Head, SC.  Bike paths everywhere. Had a vacation there recently, and loved biking everywhere on dedicated paths.

from this website - https://www.hiltonheadisland.org/see-do/biking/biking-maps

Future Plans for Bike Programs and Paths
Recognized as one of just 21 U.S. communities to achieve the Gold Level Bicycle Friendly Community Award from the League of American Bicyclists, Hilton Head Island is committed to improving biking conditions through its investment in bicycling promotion, education, infrastructure, and pro-bicycling policies. In fact, Hilton Head Island is the only Gold Level community in the Southeast and one of only two towns on the East Coast to receive this designation.

I would move to Hilton Head IN A HEARTBEAT. It's my happy place and favorite vacation destination, because of the bike paths.  Unfortunately, my husband doesn't share my love.... while I want to be somewhere that I can pursue seabird work, he wants to be in a more "urban" environment where he can do work on social justice issues such as racism, poverty, homelessness, etc. Hilton Head doesn't seem to offer what he's looking for in that department.

I know you didn't start this thread asking for places to live - but more about walkability.

But - near the ocean and decently walkable in NC, are you familiar with the New Bern area?  New Bern is walkable and gorgeous.

I've never been to New Bern, but my image of it is that it's a smaller town that is similar to Hilton Head in lacking the "grittiness" of Wilmington or a bigger city. Maybe I'm wrong?

[seattlecyclone]

I think for me there are three main ingredients to walkability/bikeability.

1) How many of the places you'll go regularly are in walking/biking distance?

If your house is over a mile or two from the nearest supermarket, park, or restaurant, you're probably not going to walk there very often. Same with biking, just increase the distances a bit. If your friends live miles away as well, you're probably not going to walk to their house to visit them most of the time. Due to basic geometry this means that denser neighborhoods are usually more walkable than sparse ones.

2) How much is the built environment in your location designed to accommodate walking/biking in a safe manner?

Are there sidewalks? Are there bike lanes, or streets where traffic moves slowly enough that you can bike safely sharing a lane with cars? Is walking/biking a common enough mode of transport in your community that drivers know to watch out for you? Do you have to cross any wide, high-speed streets to get where you're going? If so, are there safe, legal crossing points along a reasonably straight path from Point A to Point B, or do you need to go a quarter mile out of your way to find a crosswalk? At how many intersections do you have to show up before the light turns green and hit a button in order to be allowed to cross at all?

3) How aesthetically pleasing are the walking routes in your neighborhood?

The closest supermarket to my house is on the other side of the Interstate. There are sidewalks the whole way, with well-marked crosswalks across the busy streets, and stoplights that don't make you wait all that long. And yet...I much more often go to a supermarket in the other direction that is slightly farther from my house. The reason is that I just don't like walking across the Interstate. It's a full city block wide, of nothing but concrete and noise and auto fumes. I'd much rather go down the tree-lined residential and commercial streets in my neighborhood even if it takes a couple minutes longer.

[Schaefer Light]

Oooh. I just thought of something - check out Hilton Head, SC.  Bike paths everywhere. Had a vacation there recently, and loved biking everywhere on dedicated paths.

from this website - https://www.hiltonheadisland.org/see-do/biking/biking-maps

Future Plans for Bike Programs and Paths
Recognized as one of just 21 U.S. communities to achieve the Gold Level Bicycle Friendly Community Award from the League of American Bicyclists, Hilton Head Island is committed to improving biking conditions through its investment in bicycling promotion, education, infrastructure, and pro-bicycling policies. In fact, Hilton Head Island is the only Gold Level community in the Southeast and one of only two towns on the East Coast to receive this designation.

HHI is a really nice place, but there are a LOT of tourists there.  Getting on and off the island takes forever.  Especially on the weekends.  If you don't need to leave the island much, that's not as much of a problem.

Having said all of that, I'd move there in a heartbeat if money was no object.  I'd love to live on an island with so many good golf courses.

[rothwem]

Haha have you been to Wilmington? It’s one of the least bikeable towns I’ve ever been to, the sprawl is big so that all of the service staff have places to live away from the rich landowners and tourists. I do think your assessment about downtowns is dead on—a lot of the downtown areas are just office buildings, restaurants and bars. Not so many grocery or hardware stores or anything actually useful, the margins on those products are too low to support the sizable store required in a high rent downtown area. 

In NC, the only real walkable towns I can think or are Carrboro/Chapel Hill and Ocracoke, but Ocracoke is an island that just got flattened and Carrboro is a SMALL college town with its own set of annoyances.

Former NCer here. Agree that Carrboro/Chapel Hill is VERY walkable (and has free public transportation!). But large sections of Durham and Raleigh and also a nearby town called Hillsborough are quite walkable too. I lived in Hillsborough for a few years and it was like a little walkable paradise!

I was going to suggest Hillsborough too, but I’ve not actually lived there, just visited for bbq and mystery brewing (RIP mystery). I wasn’t sure if it was less walkable than it looked on the surface. Glad to hear it’s as good as it looked.

Also, I’ve lived in Raleigh, and it’s fairly walkable in the fancy parts of town (ITB), but not particularly walkable in the parts of town where normal people live. There are good greenways though.

[StarBright]

Haha have you been to Wilmington? It’s one of the least bikeable towns I’ve ever been to, the sprawl is big so that all of the service staff have places to live away from the rich landowners and tourists. I do think your assessment about downtowns is dead on—a lot of the downtown areas are just office buildings, restaurants and bars. Not so many grocery or hardware stores or anything actually useful, the margins on those products are too low to support the sizable store required in a high rent downtown area. 

In NC, the only real walkable towns I can think or are Carrboro/Chapel Hill and Ocracoke, but Ocracoke is an island that just got flattened and Carrboro is a SMALL college town with its own set of annoyances.

Former NCer here. Agree that Carrboro/Chapel Hill is VERY walkable (and has free public transportation!). But large sections of Durham and Raleigh and also a nearby town called Hillsborough are quite walkable too. I lived in Hillsborough for a few years and it was like a little walkable paradise!

I was going to suggest Hillsborough too, but I’ve not actually lived there, just visited for bbq and mystery brewing (RIP mystery). I wasn’t sure if it was less walkable than it looked on the surface. Glad to hear it’s as good as it looked.

Also, I’ve lived in Raleigh, and it’s fairly walkable in the fancy parts of town (ITB), but not particularly walkable in the parts of town where normal people live. There are good greenways though.

That is a bummer that Mystery went out of business. We were there the day it opened! Hborough is very walkable and keeps getting more so! We visited last summer and they were adding walking paths along the river to connect both business sections of town. As new neighborhoods go in they are also requiring side walks and walking paths through all new development. The whole town isn't quite walkable/bikeable yet, but it is close.

[waltworks]

I'm a little dubious about the walk-score website. My house gets an _8_ (yes, 8). But our car battery regularly dies in the summer because it sits unused for so long. In the winter we probably only drive it once every 3 or 4 days. Grocery store is 1.2 miles away (it literally takes less time to ride a bike, on a very nice bike path, than to drive/park), as is a movie theater/shopping district. Ski area is 1.5 miles. There's plenty of other stuff in easy range too, though I don't go to bars or out to eat basically ever.

So I'd say if you really want to do the walk/bike thing - you need to get granular and look at specific micro-neighborhoods/amenities to figure out what will work for you. The generic walk score is next to useless, at least for some locations.

As an aside, if you love helping shorebirds, wouldn't the best thing to do be to NOT move to the shore, where your emissions/traffic/waste stream more directly impact said birds?

-W

[seattlecyclone]

I'm a little dubious about the walk-score website. My house gets an _8_ (yes, 8). But our car battery regularly dies in the summer because it sits unused for so long. In the winter we probably only drive it once every 3 or 4 days. Grocery store is 1.2 miles away (it literally takes less time to ride a bike, on a very nice bike path, than to drive/park), as is a movie theater/shopping district. Ski area is 1.5 miles. There's plenty of other stuff in easy range too, though I don't go to bars or out to eat basically ever.

So I'd say if you really want to do the walk/bike thing - you need to get granular and look at specific micro-neighborhoods/amenities to figure out what will work for you. The generic walk score is next to useless, at least for some locations.

As an aside, if you love helping shorebirds, wouldn't the best thing to do be to NOT move to the shore, where your emissions/traffic/waste stream more directly impact said birds?

-W

Per the WalkScore website, they give maximum points to locations within a five minute (quarter mile) walk of your address, and progressively fewer points as things get farther away. Things more than a 30 minute (1.5 mile) walk are not counted at all toward the score. I think this is a pretty good methodology. The closer something is, the more likely you are to walk to it. 30 minutes seems like a reasonable enough boundary past which they say something is "not walkable." Sure, technically it's possible to walk any distance if you're willing to put in the time, but for daily errands I just can't see someone making a 60-minute round trip very often if they have a choice in the matter.

Since most of the locations you mention are at the very outside edge of what they even consider, it's no surprise that you get such a low score. How often do you actually walk to the things you mention, as opposed to biking? 1.2 miles is a pretty quick bike ride, but somewhat far to walk. I'm curious what the bike score given for your address is.

[waltworks]

It doesn't generate a bike score at all, no matter what I do...

Anyway, I consider biking just a faster version of walking. As long as there's not a car involved it's all gravy. I guess in very dense urban environments a bike can be a pain so it would make sense to separate the scores, though.

-W

[startingsmall]

As an aside, if you love helping shorebirds, wouldn't the best thing to do be to NOT move to the shore, where your emissions/traffic/waste stream more directly impact said birds?

While there's certainly validity to that argument, I'm hoping that my zoology & veterinary degrees will make me at least a little bit useful on shorebird monitoring/research projects... especially as a free volunteer. In addition to monitoring/research, Audubon coordinates some really cool bird steward work, where they station volunteers near shorebird nesting sites to a) keep people from wandering down the beach too close to the nesting birds, and b) educate beachgoers (using spotting scopes to allow people to actually see the nest site, then discussing the effect of human impacts on nesting birds).

My budget ensures that I'm in no danger of actually living ON the beach, so no direct impact in that regard. And hopefully my other, less direct, impacts will be balanced out by the good I'll be doing.

[dcheesi]

It doesn't generate a bike score at all, no matter what I do...

Anyway, I consider biking just a faster version of walking. As long as there's not a car involved it's all gravy. I guess in very dense urban environments a bike can be a pain so it would make sense to separate the scores, though.

-W

I have noticed that certain addresses seem to be "broken" in terms of anything beyond the basic walkscore. I've tried putting in my work address, for instance, and none of the fancy interactive maps come up at all.

[Boofinator]

As an aside, if you love helping shorebirds, wouldn't the best thing to do be to NOT move to the shore, where your emissions/traffic/waste stream more directly impact said birds?

Is this a joke?

[Cranky]

I'm a little dubious about the walk-score website. My house gets an _8_ (yes, 8). But our car battery regularly dies in the summer because it sits unused for so long. In the winter we probably only drive it once every 3 or 4 days. Grocery store is 1.2 miles away (it literally takes less time to ride a bike, on a very nice bike path, than to drive/park), as is a movie theater/shopping district. Ski area is 1.5 miles. There's plenty of other stuff in easy range too, though I don't go to bars or out to eat basically ever.

So I'd say if you really want to do the walk/bike thing - you need to get granular and look at specific micro-neighborhoods/amenities to figure out what will work for you. The generic walk score is next to useless, at least for some locations.

As an aside, if you love helping shorebirds, wouldn't the best thing to do be to NOT move to the shore, where your emissions/traffic/waste stream more directly impact said birds?

-W

Per the WalkScore website, they give maximum points to locations within a five minute (quarter mile) walk of your address, and progressively fewer points as things get farther away. Things more than a 30 minute (1.5 mile) walk are not counted at all toward the score. I think this is a pretty good methodology. The closer something is, the more likely you are to walk to it. 30 minutes seems like a reasonable enough boundary past which they say something is "not walkable." Sure, technically it's possible to walk any distance if you're willing to put in the time, but for daily errands I just can't see someone making a 60-minute round trip very often if they have a choice in the matter.

Since most of the locations you mention are at the very outside edge of what they even consider, it's no surprise that you get such a low score. How often do you actually walk to the things you mention, as opposed to biking? 1.2 miles is a pretty quick bike ride, but somewhat far to walk. I'm curious what the bike score given for your address is.

So, clearly, we're back to the original question of "what is walkable or bike able". LOL Because a mile is pretty much nothing, as far as I'm concerned - sidewalks, traffic, what big roads you have to cross, weather are MUCH bigger issues to look at in walkability/bikeability in my opinion.

[Jakejake]

When I'm trying to figure out if I can bike to a new location, I log into strava (free to register an account) and go to the strava heat map. https://www.strava.com/heatmap#3.00/-120.90000/38.36000/gray/ride

They've got 700 million activities logged by users there, though I'm not sure how many of those are bike rides, vs. walks and jogging, etc. Anyway - you can filter by bike rides. I like putting the settings on gray, rides, 60% opacity, maps and labels. You can zoom into any city and get an idea of how and where people are riding. If an area is "hot" - you can assume it's relatively safe and heavily used by cyclists. For me it's handy because I can see where people are crossing major highways, instead of guessing how I should get across. Or looking at my neighborhood now, I see the N/S street two miles west of me is lit up, so without even going over there myself I can tell you it has the best side walks. (People ride on sidewalks where I live, if they are available.)