Author Topic: What did I invest in??? (Canada - Sunwise)  (Read 6340 times)

scrubbyfish

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What did I invest in??? (Canada - Sunwise)
« on: December 10, 2013, 11:06:07 PM »
I sold my house a few years ago and put $100,000 of the profit into an investment account. Now (yes, a few years too late) I would like to understand it!

My investment goals:

-emergency savings to get me through tight spots
-annual income should I lose current sources
-possibly: in about 10 years or so, a bit of land with several tiny homes on it, for me and specific people in my life

The product is called SunWise Elite Plus.
It was apparently available only for a limited time (that wasn't the sales pitch; I learned later it was made unavailable).
I invested June 2010.
In June 2013 each $25,000 portion was now $28,000 (so, $12,000 on the $100,000).

What I didn't understand when I bought this product is that it is a retirement product. I didn't want a retirement product. I wanted something I would cash in to get another house in, say, 5-10 years.

What I liked and still like is that
-the principle is guaranteed
-the guaranteed retirement base regularly resets at a higher point (most recently at $29,176)
-on top of any gains made in the market, it offers a 5% bonus (but only if I keep it in 'til retirement)
-the advisor set it up in 4 chunks of $25,000 so that if I needed a portion of the money sooner than planned, I would only lose the bonus on that portion

What I don't like:
-the guarantee came with a hefty price; I don't remember what last year's fees were, and I don't know enough yet to know how to calculate the total of them, but it was hundreds of dollars

My questions:

1. How do I determine its rate of growth? (i.e., what is the math formula?)
2. Is this a good product? Did I luck out and can feel good about that? Or did I make a mistake that I should repair?
3. Should I keep it or should I forgo the 5% bonus and move it into something else? Or should I stay in it and allocate differently within it?

I'm going to leave it at that for now, as I have much to learn and am just starting.

I know I may get facepunched. I had never had money before, and did my best to protect it. Now I'm ready to face facts, learn what I need to learn, and be more proactive.

Heart of Tin

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Re: What did I invest in??? (Canada - Sunwise)
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2013, 05:14:19 PM »
To answer the question posed in the thread title, you invested in/bought a variable annuity with a Guaranteed Minimum Withdrawal Benefit rider and a lifetime income option if the annuity has not been depleted by the time you turn 65. It sounds like you don't have a very good grasp of the structure of this type of product nor a very good understanding of the terms of your specific annuity. Learn about variable annuities and GMWB product, and find out the specific fee/guaranteed growth structure of your annuity. As for your questions:

1. This depends heavily on how you access the funds (that is, do you withdraw slowly or pull all of your money out at once?) and exactly when you begin taking withdrawals. I will say that this product likely has very high fees because of the many ways the product reduces your risks.

2. This depends on your needs as well as your age. I don't think this product is appropriate for a house/emergency fund.

3. Again, it sounds like you don't fully understand the structure of the asset. Before you do anything, you need to read about what you own so that you will then be better able to decide the best way to use this annuity. In the mean time, be as aggressive as possible with your underlying investments. The income guarantees (that you are paying yearly premiums for, hidden in the form of fees) severely limit your risk of losing money to a high equity allocation, so don't be scared to invest more heavily in stocks than you would in a regular investment account.

scrubbyfish

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Re: What did I invest in??? (Canada - Sunwise)
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2013, 07:32:28 PM »
Heart of Tin: Thank you so, so much! I have been mostly off-line since posting, and came back today specifically to thank you (and the folks on another thread I started).

I managed to read your reply on my phone at some point, and was amazed and grateful.

Yes, I will continue to learn about the product. When I bought it, I tried hard to grasp it, but only got so far in that effort. Last spring, I asked my banker to explain it to me -it was she that explained the 5% bonus is not cash, and that it does not even exist unless I keep the money in until retirement. I was mortified.

Asking here was my next step, and you've helped me a great deal!

I understand now that this is not appropriate for saving for a house. (The good news is that I do have other funds available for emergencies and further investment, and I've learned from this experience.) Your note that the guarantees limit risk such that I can potentially allocate more aggressively was a lightbulb moment for me. But yes, I will learn more about the product before taking any steps.

I am 42 years old, sole provider for my son (with disabilities) and myself (also with disabilities).

My gratitude!

huadpe

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Re: What did I invest in??? (Canada - Sunwise)
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2013, 09:22:47 PM »
I'm not sure about Canadian law on this, but I know in the US one main feature of an annuity is tax deferral.  Given how you describe this, I doubt you're seeing much of any tax benefit.  This may make this a substantially worse investment than it would be otherwise. 

Also, fire whoever sold this to you (as in never do business with them again).  You got hard sold into an inappropriate product which probably generated a nice commission for them and which they KNEW was a very bad fit for what you were looking for.

scrubbyfish

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Re: What did I invest in??? (Canada - Sunwise)
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2013, 09:47:42 PM »
huadpe: Thanks. Yeah, the person who sold it to me fired herself (she put herself on disability), so no worries there! I often feel sad that she sold me this knowing full well I had no interest in conventional "retirement savings" and a keen desire to own a home in 2-10 years.

I was simply trying to put the money in something so I wouldn't foolishly spend it in the meantime, and didn't yet have an understanding of investing (still don't, even though I keep trying/reading/asking/trying). I currently have about $30,000 to invest and have no idea where to put it after my experience with this one. I thought I'd sort this one out then move forward.

Tax deferral is neither here nor there for me right now. Although I have worked since I was a teen (with a handful of years off along the way), I have never earned enough to owe any taxes. More accurately, in the few years I was finally earning enough, my son's disability (tax credit) made taxes a moot point again. So, tax deferral holds no motivation for me. (I also have an enormous amount of RRSP room should that ever change.)

Heart of Tin

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Re: What did I invest in??? (Canada - Sunwise)
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2013, 01:03:47 PM »
I was simply trying to put the money in something so I wouldn't foolishly spend it in the meantime, and didn't yet have an understanding of investing (still don't, even though I keep trying/reading/asking/trying).

I don’t blame you for the confusion! This specific type of annuity is really confusing, and I don’t understand all aspects of it.
 
First, I think you are way too young for this product. The 5% bonus that you spoke of is an annual bonus that, essentially, guarantees 5% annual growth over the first 15 years that you own the annuity as long as you do not take a withdrawal. Second, the lifetime withdrawal option (which is one of the biggest redeeming qualities of this annuity) is only available after you turn 65, so in order to exercise that option you would need to leave the funds in the annuity for another 23 years, 11 of which would not qualify for the 5% bonus leaving you to the mercy of the market and a (probably quite high) annual fee for the mutual fund you choose and CI Investments, the originator of this annuity. Every three years after you originally bought the annuity they do what they call a “reset” where they compare the value of your principle plus all of the guaranteed 5% bonuses to the value of your underlying investment minus fees. If the value of your investment is greater than the value of the principle plus bonuses, then from that point on you will get the 5% bonuses with respect to the reset value instead of the original principle. Additionally, the guaranteed withdrawal benefit base amount will never go down, which should be beneficial for you, no matter what.
 
Here’s an illustration of the above information taken from the promotional material for this fund (so, remember, it is designed to make this product look good):


-Source: http://www.sunwiseeliteplus.com/advisors/gmwb_auto_gwb_reset.jsp?lang=ENG

Focus on the area to the left of the dotted line. The black line represents the growth of the annuitant’s underlying investment minus fees while the blue bars represent the principle plus 5% annual bonuses. The little yellow dots represent “resets”. If you look at the illustration you will see that in this example the principle invested was $200,000 at age 59 (again, I think you are way too young for this product). The market then really takes off, and you can see the little black line growing much faster than the 5% bonuses represented by the light grey color at the top of the bars for ages 60 and 61. Because the investment minus fees grew faster the principle plus 5% bonuses, when the first yellow reset dot appears at age 61, three years in, the value of the blue bar has been reset to about $350,000, the value of the underlying investment at that time. Moving to age 62, you can see that the next 5% bonus was received on top of the $350,000 amount. I would be willing to bet that this is approximately what has happened to your investment over the past three years. The market grew faster than the 5% bonuses, so you now have a larger base upon which the 5% bonuses will be calculated as long as you don’t withdraw money or for the next twelve years, whichever is shorter. In this illustration the market falls at ages 63-65, so the annuitant receives only the 5% bonuses. There is a reset at age 65 to lock in the base amount for the lifetime withdrawal option for this annuitant.
 
After withdrawals begin is where my knowledge of these products gets fuzzy. I know that the withdrawal amount is 5% of the base amount, and I know that the base amount continues to “reset” every three years, but I don’t know the terms of these resets after withdrawals begin. Are you withdrawing from the investment account so that the principle amount decreases after every withdrawal or does the withdrawal come from a different CI Investments account so that the market value of the investment can continue to increase or decrease with the market? I've seen different illustrations that imply different stuctures, and I can’t find the information anywhere. Additionally, you will not be able to take the lifetime withdrawal option until you are 65. The other withdrawal option is to receive 5% of the base amount every year for 20 years. I don’t know if or how that process can be expedited nor do I know what kind of fees are involved, but I am guessing that the only way to receive maximum benefits under this 20 year withdrawal option is to take the prescribed 5% of the base out every year for 20 years. It is worth noting that, if your base amount increases during the withdrawal period, then the 20 years may be extended. This is what makes this product exceedingly bad for an emergency/house fund. It lacks the liquidity of other types of investments, since you, essentially, have to pay to get your money back quickly. I would advise you to think of a portion of your $30,000 on hand as your emergency/down payment fund instead of this annuity.
 
Here’s what you should do: find out as much as you can about the specific withdrawal terms of your annuity. Weigh your options by how quickly you think you will need the money and how much of the current base amount you will be able to get back under different withdrawal schedules. Take your time with this, and don’t feel like you need to act without a thorough understanding of all options. Even though I’ve said that you’re too young for this product and that it isn’t right for your needs, that doesn’t mean you need to take everything out of the account tomorrow. I might even be wrong that this is the wrong product for you. There’s too much that I don’t know about your specific situation and the exact terms of the annuity. Although we on this forum are usually very weary of financial advisors, if you feel overwhelmed by the complexity of this asset, maybe consider interviewing a few fee-based, fiduciary advisors with good references in your area. Ask them if they have experience with Guaranteed Minimum Withdrawal Benefit products/policies. If they’re right for you, they should, at the very least, know what that is. If they have an opinion on this type of product, even better. You don’t need to continue working with the advisor after you have an understanding of and plan for this annuity nor do you need to work with one at all if you feel up to the challenge of learning this stuff on your own.
 
One last tidbit: according to what I’ve read about GMWB products, the originator of your annuity is allowed to increase their fees at any time with 90 days notice. You have no recourse to such increases. What that means, basically, is that if CI Investments suddenly realizes that they are losing money to annuitants who live longer than they expected or if their investments don’t do as well as they expected, then CI Investments will, probably, increase your fees to make up the difference. It appears that they have done exactly that over the years since 2008’s market crash (in October of 2012, for instance, they increased the fees by .35% which alone is twice what I pay for most of my Vanguard Index Funds). Additionally, with the subsequent bull market of 2011-2013, CI Investments decreased the percent of equities you’re allowed to hold from 90% to 70%. These are both bad signs that CI Investments’s actuaries and risk management teams did their jobs poorly when designing this product. Further, as you mentioned above, this product is no longer being sold, probably because the company realizes that today’s market makes this product extremely risky for them, thus necessitating higher fees and more allocation rules for you (think of the higher fees as premiums for insurance against bad markets and long retirements past age 65). Here’s a link to the history of Sunwise Elite Plus’s fee and rule changes: http://www.sunwiseeliteplus.com/advisors/swe_changes_may2009_e.html. In my mind, that is just incentive for you to get out of this investment, as prudently as possible, but also as soon as possible without losing more money than you’re comfortable with to the withdrawal method chosen. Remember, don’t do anything until you feel comfortable with your understanding of this annuity and your options in regard to it, but do try to come to that understanding sooner rather than later.
 
Don’t let the complexity of this asset deter you from investing, especially in low price index funds or ETFs where you can buy well diversified funds with almost any asset allocation for your risk tolerance level. I promise, those types of investments are much more transparent than this monster of complexity. I think you learned your lesson and now know to understand what you’re buying at the time of purchase!

huadpe

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Re: What did I invest in??? (Canada - Sunwise)
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2013, 08:34:23 PM »
So I did a bit of homework on this and found the actual legal document underlying the fund: http://www.ci.com/orderform/pdf/seg_funds/swe_plus_infofolder_e.pdf

It's incredibly complicated and I'm usually pretty good at this stuff.  Heart of Tin seems a bit better at how annuity contracts are structured, so I'll defer to him if any of what I'm about to say is wrong.

1. If you decide to withdraw all your money from this product, according to the table on page C-13, you will have a fee of 5% of whatever is in there at the time of withdrawal.  That would drop to 4% in June 2014, 3% in June 2016, 2% in June 2017, and you could withdraw with no fee in June 2018.

2. You are paying somewhere between 3.0 and 4.5% per year in fees for the funds and insurance.  Even for the relatively high fees charged by Canadian institutions this is a ripoff.  This is from the charts on pages C-10 to C-12.  You would need to tell us which funds and classes within the product you own, if you even know, to figure exactly what your fees are.  Of your fees, a bit over 2% is going to the insurance company, and the rest is going to the fund managers.  When looking at that chart, you are in class A, the highest fee class, which they charge when they guarantee the principal won't decline.

If it were me, I'd get out of this product entirely.  The 5% bonus they're giving you is almost entirely eaten up by fees, to where you're getting an effective return of about 3-4% a year in really good market years, and are probably going to see zero gains in bad market years.  If you were truly seeing a 5% guaranteed minimum return, you'd have at minimum $115,000.  And the past few years markets have done really well, so your getting $12,000 in that period would be more than you'd normally get.

Do take your time with this, and learn more, but I don't like this product.  I generally dislike annuities to begin with though, so I am a bit biased. 

scrubbyfish

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Re: What did I invest in??? (Canada - Sunwise)
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2013, 11:17:52 PM »
You two have been so kind to me -no facepunches at all! And yet when I first read the facts, above, I felt I'd been kicked in the gut. Ugh. Not because of you, but because the facts are what they are.

I gave myself some minutes to recover, then came back here to thank you both again. The facts are what I wanted. I kept feeling like something was "wrong" with this investment and I wanted to hear if there indeed was. I can be grateful that I have this money, rather than spend time kicking myself. I am going to start looking at other options.

Also, I imagine that one thing the advisor/seller may have been responding to was my absolute insistence that no principle ever be lost. I was putting her in a bit of a bind, no? What could she have helped me buy that would offer that guarantee? Perhaps nothing except this. This is me taking some responsibility for the agreement I entered.

For too long before I gained this money I had been homeless and very, very broke (and no, no TV, car, phone, haircuts, etc -just me and the sidewalk or shelters or temporary couches in people's living rooms). I was adamant that I never land in that position again, especially now that I was the sole provider for a child. I was terrified of losing it all, or really any amount of it. I purchased a guarantee of safety, yes. I spent a lot on that. Sigh. But I understand why I did it, and am ready to repair this.

The small amount I've since read about investing is that we must be able to cope emotionally and psychologically with the ups and downs of the market. I've also read that a wise option for avoiding major loss is to *really* diversify -one writer explained that this means hundreds (?) of different stocks, not a dozen (for example). Another gem (I think) is that fees must be extremely low if they are to justify the value of a broker, because most people will do just as well or better on their own, even just making their best guesses.

This past year I tried reading MoneySense Guide to the Perfect Portfolio (Canada). I tried very hard to work my way through it. I felt confused and bewildered. My brain just does not take this stuff in. Is there a "...for Dummies" version of an investment starter book?

huadpe

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Re: What did I invest in??? (Canada - Sunwise)
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2013, 08:45:12 AM »
Yeah, if you were insisting that no principal be lost ever, then it's not hard to see how you ended up buying an annuity product. 

If you want to protect your principal 100% and want the maximum return possible - buy GICs.  Anything other than a bank account will inevitably be risky, and you need to face that.  If an insurance company is offering to take that risk away, they're going to want to be handsomely compensated for doing so. 

Do not be tricked into thinking that diversification can prevent a major loss though.  It protects against some types of risk (e.g. one industry shrinking while others grow) but it does not protect against a market crash like 2008.  If you're invested in the market and it crashes, you will lose a big percentage of your money.  If you can't handle that emotionally and not pull out of the market when it crashes - buy GICs.

Diversifying to hundreds of stocks is actually a pretty trivial matter; most mutual funds do this for you, so that's not hard.  You probably would want one or more index mutual funds, which just track the whole stock market or some specified piece of it.  They have the lowest fees since they're on autopilot.  MMM has a guest post on this just a couple days ago.  http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/12/15/canadian-investing-with-mr-frugal-toque-part-two/

Looking at your goals listed in the first post here, I don't know what advice to give without knowing more about your income and budget to know what kind of cashflow you have.

scrubbyfish

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Re: What did I invest in??? (Canada - Sunwise)
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2013, 11:07:49 AM »
Hi huadpe.

So, are you saying that even GICs would be better (i.e., more lucrative) than the current product?

And in terms of a market crash, I think the idea is that we continue investing (couch potato style) regardless of what's going on, and it all works out in the end. Is that the idea?

Re: income/cash flow/etc.

I grew up poor, was homeless as a young adult, and now solo-parent a kid who has disabilities. I was drowning financially, covering my son's disability-related costs while sitting on the public wait list for his assessment. I then made some big changes -sold my house, downsized drastically, paid for a private assessment so my son could access the income and free programs he was clearly eligible for. All of this turned things around. I also grew a successful homebased business and was finally looking -the last two years- at a solid cashflow and set myself up accordingly (RRSP account, Corporation, etc). However, this year a third party determined my business to be "competition" and successfully strategized me out of the field. This fiasco cost me an enormous amount in both savings and income; 2013 saw a major loss. (A lot like a market crash, I guess!) These are the kinds of things that instill fear in me and that I need accessible principle to be able to withstand.

The good news:
Zero debt.
The savings.
Income from various sources of $2400/mo minimum (more in good business months).
Personal expenses below this total -I don't know what yet, as I'm not yet tracking (outside of my journal the past couple of days). I rent a very small place at an amazing price, don't bother with furniture, etc. I've newly slashed my other biggest cost (food).
Plans for rebuilding the business.

scrubbyfish

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Re: What did I invest in??? (Canada - Sunwise)
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2014, 04:10:40 PM »
Dear Heart of Tin and huadpe:

I have been following through on this.

First, I wrote myself a "Cole's notes" of this whole thread, until I felt I understood most of what we were talking about, and knew better how to research it. Then I wrote a list of direct questions to ask. Then I went to an advisor I trust at my bank. She said a lot of what you two said, but one thing even worse: her understanding is that the capital is guaranteed only if I use the monthly withdrawal option. i.e., If I take it out at any point in the next 20 years, and the market value happens to be lower than the original investment was, I get the lower amount.

Her take was essentially this:

-this is an acceptable product only if it is for retirement and I want no risk to the capital, and I will be happy with the monthly payment amounts

-if taken out in a lump sum before or after retirement, the principle is NOT guaranteed at all; the value is only market value. This is wild to me, as the guaranteed security of principle was the whole reason I bought it. Scary! I may double-check this.

-the fees are enormous. I pay varying rates (changes per fund), averaging 2% or more per year. On top of that, I pay an additional rate of 5% of the guaranteed value. As the guaranteed amount goes up each year, so does this fee. In 2012, over/above/after the MER I paid $860 on the $100,000. In 2013, I paid just over $900 in extra "insurance" fees.

-the "5% bonus" is not a bonus at all; it is a baseline guarantee of increase (simple, not compounded on the original amount) for each of the first so many years. This guarantee is completely irrelevant and moot unless I keep it in. i.e., This calculation comes into play only if I take the option of monthly withdrawals, in which case the withdrawals are based on the 5% guarantee or market value, whichever is higher at the time. e.g., I put $25000 into each of four identical products. Each year, a minimum of 5% ($1250) is added to the original value. So, after 3 years, my product is guaranteed at $28750. Market value may be $24000, may be $28000, may be whatever number. The monthly withdrawal amount would be based on 5% of the guarantee or 5% of market, whichever is higher.

-If I wait til age 65, I take a monthly amount based on that 5% or market -whichever is higher- until I die.

-I can start monthly withdrawals earlier (e.g., now). In this case, I would take a monthly amount based on that 5% or market -whichever is higher- but only for 20 years (potentially longer if the market does well).

-if I take the money out right now (or at any other point), I will take out the market value and pay no penalties or fees

-the market value is currently $29,952 each (so $119,808 total)

She said if my plan is retirement and I want guarantees, I might determine the high fees to be worth it (peace of mind, etc) and that I should aim to live to 105 years of age ;)

She said if my plan is anything else -buying a place, whatever- that I'd be in equal risk position in the market, just without the enormous fees.

I've decided so far that I will collapse one of the four accounts almost immediately and move it into my RRSP. This is to support my eligibility for other programs (which allow RRSPs but not other investments). I will look for threads on that topic.

And then I will learn where and how to put this money elsewhere.

marty998

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Re: What did I invest in??? (Canada - Sunwise)
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2014, 04:26:32 PM »
Notwithstanding all the fees and charges and complexity and all the associated garbage rules you've listed, the investment has gone up by almost 20% in 3.5 years.

Although the market has gone streets ahead of that, 20% is not totally unacceptable, and lets face it, it could have been a whole lot worse.

Take the money, invest it in a low fee product, (or buy that land you want) and then think about annuities when you are at retirement age if that fits with your risk profile then.

huadpe

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Re: What did I invest in??? (Canada - Sunwise)
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2014, 11:34:31 PM »
If you can take it out with no penalties or fees, do so.  However, I am not optimistic that your adviser is right on that.  The contract says in no uncertain terms that they charge a fee for early termination within the first 8 years to cover the giant commission they paid the broker who sold this to you.  If the fees are as high as you're saying though, you need to get out.  20% returns over 3 years in a very big bull market is not good at all.  Convert what you can to an RRSP and put the rest in a simple investment you can understand.  If you need help with the basics of investing, the investing forums on here will be happy to help.

TomTX

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Re: What did I invest in??? (Canada - Sunwise)
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2014, 06:09:23 PM »
That's.... pretty horrible. Fees on investments in something like a mutual fund should be tenths of a percent, not multiple percents.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!