Author Topic: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?  (Read 2180 times)

Penelope Vandergast

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Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« on: May 20, 2019, 01:08:35 PM »
It looks like I finally have the money to get an electric or hybrid vehicle. However, I have not bought a car in ages (I have a 2007 Kia, which I bought used in 2010) and I do NOT want anything that has the internet, smart ignition, connects to your phone, or any of that stuff -- except maybe the camera/screen that lets you see behind you, which is a feature that actually seems useful rather a distraction. (even though I suspect it just makes people lazier about looking around them)

I'm guessing that most newer electric vehicles are outfitted with all of this so I'm like "Meh." On the other hand, newer electric cars probably have better batteries. Yes, I am over age 40. Yes, I am fine with reading a paper map. I just want to drive without burning fossil fuels.

The car would be mainly for in-town driving of less than 5 miles at a time. I'll be doing some research on my own but was curious to see if anybody had suggestions for a decent compromise between battery storage and buying what amounts to a moving electronic surveillance device. (see https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/20/opinion/car-repair-data-privacy.html)


Syonyk

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2019, 01:14:40 PM »
A cargo bicycle, or electric cargo bicycle.  For sub-5 mile trips, a car is almost always the wrong answer, and it would be greener to keep your existing vehicle and simply use it far less.

Hirondelle

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2019, 01:28:42 PM »
A cargo bicycle, or electric cargo bicycle.  For sub-5 mile trips, a car is almost always the wrong answer, and it would be greener to keep your existing vehicle and simply use it far less.

+1. Unless you have significant medical difficulties there is no reason to take a car for a sub 5-mile trip.

teltic

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2019, 02:05:45 PM »
Everyone here will tell you to go buy a bike.

As for new vs. used electric cars... With the rebates going on, I think buying new makes sense (it's weird, I know).  I'd take a look at the nissan leaf (seems to be the most affordable/basic electric car).  Hyundai launched "Ioniq" that looks pretty competitive too.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/10/04/so-i-bought-an-electric-car/

MMM's "sorta net price of car" plus taxes and such = $14,775

SLC, UT craigslist leafs....
2013 leaf with 43k miles = $6900
2015 leaf with 32k = $9k
2015 leaf with 24k = $14.5k

Looking quickly online, batteries should last 8-10 years.  They gradually have less capacity.  Replacing the battery will cost $5500 plus installation ($225 per hour, 3 hours, $675)

So with the 2013 leaf, you'll be dropping another $6k in ~4 years. 

Even rerunning the numbers.... I'd still go for a new leaf.  If you still are pushing for used, I'd look real hard at how much you can buy batteries, and how hard it would be to replace yourself?  I'd imagine a 2019 leaf batteries will be more efficient than 2013 batteries... But 2013 batteries could be cheaper to buy ???

« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 02:09:18 PM by teltic »

AlanStache

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2019, 02:26:12 PM »
Everyone here will tell you to go buy a bike.

As for new vs. used electric cars... With the rebates going on, I think buying new makes sense (it's weird, I know).  I'd take a look at the nissan leaf (seems to be the most affordable/basic electric car).  Hyundai launched "Ioniq" that looks pretty competitive too.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/10/04/so-i-bought-an-electric-car/

MMM's "sorta net price of car" plus taxes and such = $14,775

SLC, UT craigslist leafs....
2013 leaf with 43k miles = $6900
2015 leaf with 32k = $9k
2015 leaf with 24k = $14.5k

Looking quickly online, batteries should last 8-10 years.  They gradually have less capacity.  Replacing the battery will cost $5500 plus installation ($225 per hour, 3 hours, $675)

So with the 2013 leaf, you'll be dropping another $6k in ~4 years. 

Even rerunning the numbers.... I'd still go for a new leaf.  If you still are pushing for used, I'd look real hard at how much you can buy batteries, and how hard it would be to replace yourself?  I'd imagine a 2019 leaf batteries will be more efficient than 2013 batteries... But 2013 batteries could be cheaper to buy ???

But if the current battery is good enough till it needs replacing in 4 years would you then be able to get an even better battery (at a cheaper price)?  Can new battery tech go into older cars?

gaja

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2019, 02:43:12 PM »
The Buddy has a range of 60-120 km, depending on weather and driving style. It has zero fancy features, costs a lot (custom made - second hand are difficult to find), and has the safety score of a cargo bike (maybe less). But is is really fun to drive - feels like go-cart. https://www.buddyelectric.no/buddy (sorry for the language, but the photos say it all)

The last Th!nks that were produced just before the company went bankrupt in 2011 have a surprisingly good range (120-130 km). They have the same lack of features (including, or rather excluding, safety) as the Buddy. Can be found for $3000-5000, but you should probably get two, to have some spare parts. No idea how difficult they are to export to the US: https://www.finn.no/car/used/ad.html?finnkode=144116949 (again: photos tell the story).

I thought maybe the triplets could be an option, but even they are smart phone compatible with integrated satnav. (triplets: Citroen, Peugeot, and Mitsubishi cooperated on making one of the first EVs with speed charging option around 2010. They are called Citroen CZero, Peugeot Ion and Mitsubishi iMiev, but it is basically the same car.)

Maybe if you were able to get hold of one of the 2012 Toyota Rav4? They are iPod compatible, but since the iPod no longer exist, that might not be a problem? See data sheet in the end of this article: https://elbil.no/elbilen-rav4-ev/

gaja

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2019, 02:53:31 PM »
Everyone here will tell you to go buy a bike.

As for new vs. used electric cars... With the rebates going on, I think buying new makes sense (it's weird, I know).  I'd take a look at the nissan leaf (seems to be the most affordable/basic electric car).  Hyundai launched "Ioniq" that looks pretty competitive too.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/10/04/so-i-bought-an-electric-car/

MMM's "sorta net price of car" plus taxes and such = $14,775

SLC, UT craigslist leafs....
2013 leaf with 43k miles = $6900
2015 leaf with 32k = $9k
2015 leaf with 24k = $14.5k

Looking quickly online, batteries should last 8-10 years.  They gradually have less capacity.  Replacing the battery will cost $5500 plus installation ($225 per hour, 3 hours, $675)

So with the 2013 leaf, you'll be dropping another $6k in ~4 years. 

Even rerunning the numbers.... I'd still go for a new leaf.  If you still are pushing for used, I'd look real hard at how much you can buy batteries, and how hard it would be to replace yourself?  I'd imagine a 2019 leaf batteries will be more efficient than 2013 batteries... But 2013 batteries could be cheaper to buy ???

But if the current battery is good enough till it needs replacing in 4 years would you then be able to get an even better battery (at a cheaper price)?  Can new battery tech go into older cars?

The batteries last longer than earlier expected. There were some problems due to lack of cooling in the 2011 leaf generation, but that was soon fixed. My 2015 eNV200 still has 100 % perfect batteries. Looks like the lack of cooling in the 30 kWh leaf caused new problems: https://pushevs.com/2018/03/20/nissan-leaf-battery-degradation-data-24-vs-30-kwh-batteries/

Our 2013 Tesla with 200 000 km needed to change some of the cells last summer, but the battery refurbishment was covered by the warranty. Here are some data points: https://5vtj648dfk323byvjb7k1e9w-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/tesla-model-sx-mileage-vs-remaining-battery-capacity.png

Nissan batteries can't be upgraded, since they have changed physical size and form. Tesla can, to a certain degree. The price of a new battery pack has dropped, and will continue to go down.

Maenad

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2019, 08:43:30 AM »
I don't think there are any electric cars that aren't "smart". When we bought our Leaf in 2012 the salesguy said it's basically a computer on wheels, which I think most ICE vehicles are close to as well.

Khaetra

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2019, 10:00:40 AM »
I don't think there are any electric cars that aren't "smart". When we bought our Leaf in 2012 the salesguy said it's basically a computer on wheels, which I think most ICE vehicles are close to as well.

Almost all cars today are 'smart'.  Even my base Honda Fit has Bluetooth, backup camera and Apple CarPlay.

Honestly if that's all the driving you do I would skip the car and go biking (if your area is bike-friendly, that is).

teltic

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2019, 10:31:24 AM »
After nerding out for an hour....


You can trade in your old battery pack for a battery refabricated one for $2850. (not sure if this includes labor)
https://electrek.co/2018/03/26/nissan-leaf-battery-pack-replacement-program/

Assuming you drive 12k miles a year (national average), google tells me $.04 per mile of electricity (obviously this will vary by state)

Electric car = $480
Gas car ($3.10 per gallon, 30 mpg) = $1240

Annual savings = $760

For me, my state doesn't offer any rebates... So a new electric car will cost be around ~$20k (that is optimistic).

If I did this, I'd buy the 2013 for $7k, and pay $3k to get the battery replaced.

Due to the low mile range (and battery degradation), high cost of replacing batteries (I currently see no legit aftermarket battery replacement options online), and the fact I'm a renter so I don't have consistent access to electricity (I park on the street).... I'll continue to sit on the sidelines.

I bet within the next 3-5 years I'll make the switch... Not yet.

Good luck!
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 11:46:41 AM by teltic »

gaja

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2019, 04:48:31 PM »
@teltic Is you nerding based on experience, or is it only calculations and theory? Because I can’t  get it to fit with my experiences at all (>100 000 km in different EVs, purchasing quite a few evs for work, running test projects, and having spent the last 8 years speaking about evs with people all over Europe). If there is a trend towards upgrading batteries in modern evs, it is new for me, and very interesting to learn more about. That would mean there was something in the Renault business model of leasing batteries, which caused them to loose nearly all sales in the Norwegian market for several years. And in the Better place battery swap, that failed so miserably six years ago.

I would absolutely recommend getting the battery of a second hand 2013 leaf tested before buying, but I don’t understand why you would change it out if it works perfectly well? I know a few super nerds who fix 1th gen Th!nks and Kewets with lead batteries. They calculate in the cost of changing batteries. But I have not met owners of post 2010 evs who consider doing this. Sure, if there is a proven problem, but usually that is either a case for the warranty, or the car gets downgraded to a short range commuter.

And for the op, with his/her short range need, an old leaf with a bad battery could be a very good purchase if the price is right. I’ve driven quite a few thousand kms in a 2011 (or was it 12?) leaf with a degraded battery. I think it was down to 70% at the end. For every day use around town, and slow holidays, it worked fine. It only required more frequent charging. And even with the relatively severe degradation, it didn’t make sense to spend money on upgrading the battery. 

But; all new information is interesting information. So if you have experiences that differ from mine, I would very much like to learn more.

gaja

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2019, 05:02:20 PM »
I don't think there are any electric cars that aren't "smart". When we bought our Leaf in 2012 the salesguy said it's basically a computer on wheels, which I think most ICE vehicles are close to as well.

Evs have been made since the late 1800s, so there are lots of “dumb” evs. The challenge is finding them on the second hand market, getting a decent range, and not getting stuck on maintenance. I think all the US made evs from the 90’s that were made for California regulations, eventually got pulled from the market. Those will be quite “dumb”, but if you were able to find one I wouldn’t trust it to run very well.

teltic

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2019, 11:15:40 AM »
@gaja  everything is just calculations/googling around.  I'm not sure which part you are mentioning... Battery replacement?  The majority of people cannot use/accept an electric car with <50 mile ranges.  So with these older EV cars... No one is going to buy a 2011 Leaf that can only go 30 miles.  People dont' buy EV cars because they know/think their batteries will be shit in 5 years.  There is going to be a market of replacing these batteries to get them back to 100+ mile ranges.  Cool to see that Nissan has a program to swap old battery for a new one for $3k (https://greentecauto.com/repurposed-batteries/nissan-leaf-battery-replacement-program). I imagine that doesn't include cost of labor/tax?


I still think we are 3-5 years away before electric cars become financially better for the general public.  A quality used gas car is cheaper than both options (new leaf with all the rebates, or buying an old one and replacing the battery).

gaja

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2019, 02:08:30 PM »
@gaja  everything is just calculations/googling around.  I'm not sure which part you are mentioning... Battery replacement?  The majority of people cannot use/accept an electric car with <50 mile ranges.  So with these older EV cars... No one is going to buy a 2011 Leaf that can only go 30 miles.  People dont' buy EV cars because they know/think their batteries will be shit in 5 years.  There is going to be a market of replacing these batteries to get them back to 100+ mile ranges.  Cool to see that Nissan has a program to swap old battery for a new one for $3k (https://greentecauto.com/repurposed-batteries/nissan-leaf-battery-replacement-program). I imagine that doesn't include cost of labor/tax?


I still think we are 3-5 years away before electric cars become financially better for the general public.  A quality used gas car is cheaper than both options (new leaf with all the rebates, or buying an old one and replacing the battery).

1) You claim "People dont' buy EV cars because they know/think their batteries will be shit in 5 years." Yes, I have heard that before. It was common to say that in Norway 5+ years ago. Then more people started buying and using EVs (now up to 40-50 % of new cars sold are BEVs), and the fear dissipated. Now, I rarely hear that myth mentioned anymore. What killed it, in addition to real life experience, was battery warranties of 8 years, and a known price for swapping a broken battery. It is similar to what happened along the west coast when we announced the plans for a comprehensive network of speed chargers. As soon as people felt safe they could drive to visit their mother, they bought an EV to use on their daily commute. Do they use the speed chargers (or visit their mother)? No. But the feeling of being able to was enough to remove the barrier. And they were fine with buying the cars several years before the chargers got built. The barrier was psychological, not physical.

2) In my experience, your claim that "no one is going to buy a 2011 Leaf that can only go 30 miles" is wrong. Not a lot of people will buy it, but for the right price it will sell, and it will get used. If my old leaf with 80 km range hadn't died in a car crash, I would probably still be driving it. Sure, there might be a market for battery replacement in the future. But what you are missing in your googling is that most batteries keep a decent range for a long time. And very few cars get as bad batteries as you describe without the replacement being covered by the 5-8 year warranty. With the new regulations in Europe (banning diesel in city centers, expensive toll roads for fossil fuelled cars, etc) the second hand market for EVs has room for a few cars with limited range. This one, for instance, has a range of 50-70 km, and costs $3000: https://www.finn.no/car/used/ad.html?finnkode=144894513 Excellent starter car - a mate of mine drove one for several years.

For the cars that start out with longer range, a larger loss is acceptable for normal use. This taxi has run 540 000 km (one Swedish mil is 10 km), and the battery has degraded 15%. The driver is planning to use it for three more years, with a goal to get to one million km: https://www.breakit.se/artikel/19898/har-hans-tesla-rullat-langst-i-sverige-kort-over-100-000-mil-om-tre-ar

3) My predictions for the future: Within the next 10 years, 80 % of the cars sold in Europe will be electric (for the Nordics: before 2025, maybe with an exception for Denmark). When people need more range, they will upgrade to newer models, while the old cars will be sold cheaply to people who need a small vehicle for short commutes. There will be less cars overall, and more car sharing. That will also lessen peoples' need to own a long range vehicle, since it will be very easy (and much cheaper) to rent what you need when you need it: an old leaf if you only need to drive your granny to the doctor, a Tesla if you want to take a road trip, and a cargo van if you need to buy something from IKEA.

teltic

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2019, 04:23:59 PM »
@gaja  You guys from Norway are badass.  I initially laughed at the "40-50% of sales are EVs", then I found this. https://evadoption.com/ev-market-share/

2017 EV sales marketshare: US = 1.18%, Norway = 39.20%.


100% agree that #1 is psychological.

2) With only 2% buying new EV cars, who is buying used EVs, especially in states outside of California (currently makes up of 50% of US sales).  Hard for me to buy a $30k car, knowing it'll be worth $5k in 5 years.



Also, why is Norway such a high percentage of EVs?  Does Norway have rebates/incentives to purchase EVs?  Sweden is 6.3%, England 1.9%, but Norway is 39%??

Also, I just realized that $3k price to swap batteries is ONLY in Japan.  I'm seeing people online getting quotes from Nissan for $8650 plus tax https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=25882&sid=44f45cbcec3eafc46e6b7992f31e451b&start=10

There's an after market company that is set to make replacement batteries for $6k.  $1500 installation.

Ellon says Tesla 3 module replacement will cost between $5-$7k.

https://interestingengineering.com/tesla-puts-price-on-model-3-battery-module-replacement-around-5000-7000


It's simply too expensive.  It FINANCIALLY doesn't make since.... Yet. :)


Syonyk

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2019, 04:45:57 PM »
Also, why is Norway such a high percentage of EVs?

Because with their taxes on internal combustion engines, that currently don't apply to EVs, you can buy a Honda Civic for an insane amount of money, or a loaded Tesla for not that much more.

FIREstache

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2019, 05:32:50 PM »
I bought my brand new 34 mpg non-hybrid car in 2006, when gas prices were on the rise.  I would have taken a look at a Prius, but they didn't even have any available.   Nearly 13 years later, and it doesn't feel like anything has changed.  I'm not much more likely to get a hybrid (or electric) today than I did back then.   Still very view hybrids/electrics around.  Progress is slow - I don't see any significant changes in another 10 years.

In Illinois, legislation was proposed to tax electric cars (not hybrids) $1000 PER YEAR!  Taxing them out of existence.

AlanStache

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2019, 06:40:22 PM »
EV adoption rates are mostly likely going to grow exponentially rather than linearly in the US.  To lazy to google but several articles/sources have said that basically all analysts who are not paid by oil companies say that between 2023 and 2030 the US will hit 50% on new vehicle sales being EV. 

gaja

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2019, 07:54:30 AM »
@gaja
2) With only 2% buying new EV cars, who is buying used EVs, especially in states outside of California (currently makes up of 50% of US sales).  Hard for me to buy a $30k car, knowing it'll be worth $5k in 5 years.
I find your statement here very confusing. If the depriciation on US EVs is so bad, no wonder Norwegians are importing second hand cars by the boat load. If it is only a theory you have because you think the battery will be degraded, it doesn't make sense at all. The battery warranty normally lasts 5-8 years. There are very few ways to get a bad battery within the warranty periode, without getting a new battery for free.

If only 2 % buy EVs you get fewer buyers, but you also get fewer sellers. And being the seller in an increasing market is not negative. We have had cases here where the market has gotten so hot that the cars sell for more second hand than they cost new. For several brands, the waiting lists are currently 1-2 year long, and for the Kia Niro the waiting list got so long they stopped adding names.

Here are five year old electric cars. The cheapest ones, that cost 60 000 NOK second hand, can be bought for 150 000 NOK brand new: https://www.finn.no/car/used/search.html?engine_fuel=0%2F4&sales_form=1&sort=2&year_from=2014&year_to=2014

The cheap and "dumb" cars I have linked to in this thread have been 20 years old, not 5.


Also, why is Norway such a high percentage of EVs?
Because with their taxes on internal combustion engines, that currently don't apply to EVs, you can buy a Honda Civic for an insane amount of money, or a loaded Tesla for not that much more.
Yes: 120 % taxes on fossil fueled cars, and 70 % taxes on fossil fuels. Petrol is currently around 17 NOK/liter. (~ $7.5/gallon). Electricity is around $.11/kWh. Toll roads, parking and ferries are at least 50 % cheaper.

Politics works. Also, when it gets below -30C, diesel will start to freeze. The electric engine always starts.

MilesTeg

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2019, 08:51:53 AM »
It looks like I finally have the money to get an electric or hybrid vehicle. However, I have not bought a car in ages (I have a 2007 Kia, which I bought used in 2010) and I do NOT want anything that has the internet, smart ignition, connects to your phone, or any of that stuff -- except maybe the camera/screen that lets you see behind you, which is a feature that actually seems useful rather a distraction. (even though I suspect it just makes people lazier about looking around them)

I'm guessing that most newer electric vehicles are outfitted with all of this so I'm like "Meh." On the other hand, newer electric cars probably have better batteries. Yes, I am over age 40. Yes, I am fine with reading a paper map. I just want to drive without burning fossil fuels.

The car would be mainly for in-town driving of less than 5 miles at a time. I'll be doing some research on my own but was curious to see if anybody had suggestions for a decent compromise between battery storage and buying what amounts to a moving electronic surveillance device. (see https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/20/opinion/car-repair-data-privacy.html)

But a vehicle based on its primary qualities and maybe just don't use the 'smart' features you don't like?

teltic

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2019, 10:45:08 AM »
@gaja  Long story short, electric vehicles will not be a big thing in the US until either 1. US starts punishing us through taxes and fees for gas cars (will never happen).  2. US starts giving incentives for us to buy EVs ($7500 federal rebate, some states have rebates), 3. EVs have similar ranges as gas cars, and a low cost replacement battery to ease our psychological issues.


I can tell you are a huge EV fan.  Me too!  But... Realistically the majority will not adapt to it until it is comparable to a gas powered car.

EV adoption rates are mostly likely going to grow exponentially rather than linearly in the US.  To lazy to google but several articles/sources have said that basically all analysts who are not paid by oil companies say that between 2023 and 2030 the US will hit 50% on new vehicle sales being EV. 

I believe we are so close for the US to start really adopting EV. 2023 sounds realistic. 2019 Leaf has 150 mile range.  Good.  I think a 200-250 mile range for >$30k with a >$5k battery replacement option is when the majority steps into the market.

Car Jack

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2019, 10:47:47 AM »
Buy an old Prius and a $50 rear camera setup from Amazon.  I've got the camera in my Wrangler (the cleanest vehicle anywhere....hahaha).

MilesTeg

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2019, 12:56:45 PM »
I can tell you are a huge EV fan.  Me too!  But... Realistically the majority will not adapt to it until it is comparable to a gas powered car.

Passenger vehicle EVs are already *better* than ICE vehicles for everything but trips (and some EVs are already only slightly less convenient than an ICE for long trips).

They:

* require fewer dedicated refueling stops (charge at home/at work almost all the time)
* easy to start each day with 100% of your range
* are cheaper to fuel/can be fueled for 0 marginal cost in many scenarios.
* are cheaper/more convenient to maintain (other than battery) because they have very few moving parts.
* are higher performance than ICE vehicles, even with lower "specs" due to instant/flat torque curves
* can be made safer than ICE vehicles (due to fundamental differences in design requirements)

As far as long trips, with the right infrastructure even a current EV only requires a bit of extra planning to be perfectly fine for all but the most extreme trips. For example, a 500 mile trip would be 8-9 hours of driving and only require about 45 minutes of charge time (probably in more than one stop) assuming a 250m range. In that time you're going to want to stop 1-2 times to eat, pee and rest anyway which will need most of that 45 minutes of time anyway. Unless you're on a cross country road trip you're not losing much, if any, time.

Construction Cost & perception are the only issues preventing wide scale adoption of EV. Cost, of course, being the biggest factor. Unfortunately, the perception issues will always exist, because people don't like change.

FIREstache

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2019, 04:13:34 PM »
* require fewer dedicated refueling stops (charge at home/at work almost all the time)
* easy to start each day with 100% of your range
* are cheaper to fuel/can be fueled for 0 marginal cost in many scenarios.
* are cheaper/more convenient to maintain (other than battery) because they have very few moving parts.
* are higher performance than ICE vehicles, even with lower "specs" due to instant/flat torque curves
* can be made safer than ICE vehicles (due to fundamental differences in design requirements)


Refueling stops in an ICE are a non-issue.  They are quick and not required as often.
ICE are easy to start each day with 100% of your range, an EV is less likely to make the range without recharging.
ICE are low cost to operate, don't have to suck up electrical power to get heat, don't have wait around a long time charging, don't suffer as much loss of efficiency in very cold weather.
EVs can be very expensive to repair, not just the batteries but some of the other specific parts such as the brake unit mentioned on the Prius.
EVs can be dog slow as mentioned in many reviews.  It depends on the car, but you can't make blanket false statements that they are higher performance.
EVs can be less safe than ICE.  Again, it depends on the car, and you can't make false blanket statements EV is safer.

Illinois is proposing legislation to tax EVs $1000 PER YEAR, excludes hybrids.

Without government interfering with the free market much more on this issue, I don't see a quick uptick in EV adoption.  And in fact, the legislation mentioned actually takes things in the other direction.

If I was buying today, I would definitely avoid EV, just as most other people are doing, except for possibly a hybrid.

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2019, 08:44:48 PM »
Passenger vehicle EVs are already *better* than ICE vehicles for everything but trips (and some EVs are already only slightly less convenient than an ICE for long trips).

If your funding is unlimited and you live in an area with plenty of chargers, OK.  Otherwise... eh.  They're a good around town beater, but they're not great for an awful lot of use cases.  A 200 mile range EV is $50k, and, annoyingly, not everyone has $7500/yr of federal tax liability to offset.  This drives me up the f-cking wall when people talk about new EV pricing.  I make good money, and I sure don't pay $7500/yr in federal taxes.  I know people who live very comfortably and pay remarkably little in federal taxes (a few kids tends to do that).  And I've had to growl at a few car salespeople who have insisted that the $7500 tax credit can be subtracted from the price of every new EV.  No, you can't just generally assume that.  It's simply not true outside places like CA where $100k is poverty wages.

Quote
require fewer dedicated refueling stops (charge at home/at work almost all the time)

True... maybe?  Not everyone's work has EV charging.  If you're in the tech industry, and are willing to deal with 40 year old men acting like toddlers over EV charging, sure, you can probably charge at work, but the entire rest of the country isn't there yet.

Yes, you can charge every night at home, but depending on your charging infrastructure (which some people don't have - I guess, if you live in an apartment, you don't count as a real person?), it's not always true.  A 12 hour charging window, on home 120V/16A, gets you around 20kWh, which is 60 miles - useful enough, and you can certainly make it work, but without dedicated higher speed charging infrastructure...

And public charging infrastructure does not meaningfully exist for large parts of the country.  I cannot rely on any public charging infrastructure for us - it simply doesn't exist, and if it does, it's either out of service, or impossible to find.

Quote
easy to start each day with 100% of your range

If you drop a grand or two on 240V charging, and have the panel/transformer to feed it, yes.  Otherwise, see previous comments about limited charging.  I can't charge a big EV out here daily - I simply don't have the amps to do so.

Oh, and that "100% of range" is about 50% of rated range in the winter, if you live somewhere cold.

Quote
are cheaper to fuel/can be fueled for 0 marginal cost in many scenarios.

Cheaper?  Certainly.  Zero marginal cost?  Where on earth do you live that power is... oh, right, tech industry?  Free EV chargers for employees?  In the rest of the world, we all pay for power.  Now, I won't argue about cost - it is almost always cheaper to run an EV, assuming nothing goes wrong, than to buy gas.  And it's a more stable cost as well.  But it's not free.

At 3 mi/kWh, and $0.12/kWh power, our Volt runs $0.04/mi in energy costs.  A 55mpg Prius at $3.50 gas is $0.063/mi in energy costs.  It takes a good while to recover the difference there...

Quote
are cheaper/more convenient to maintain (other than battery) because they have very few moving parts.

In theory, yes.  In reality, at least some of the EVs out there are hellishly expensive to maintain.  A friend of mine with a Model X (which serves mostly as an excuse for him to sit at the Service Center) has tire costs that exceed the fuel costs on a reasonably efficient gas car.  Not counting power or anything else.  He was looking at replacement tires at 10k miles, which is absurd for anything short of something like a modded Supra.  Or a modern EV.

Quote
are higher performance than ICE vehicles, even with lower "specs" due to instant/flat torque curves

From 0-40, sure.  They tend to fall off a cliff in acceleration beyond that, though it's certainly more useful around town.  I do wish some came with better mappings on the throttle, though - on a lot of them, in the normal mode, you literally have to floor it to get it to move in a hurry, because the throttle curves are tuned for efficiency out of the box.  If you're buying $120k cars, sure, they're quick, but most $120k cars are pretty quick.

Quote
can be made safer than ICE vehicles (due to fundamental differences in design requirements)

O... kay?  There's not a huge difference between an overbuilt expensive EV and an overbuilt expensive gas car, in terms of safety results.

Quote
As far as long trips, with the right infrastructure...

Which doesn't exist unless you own a Tesla in the US...

Quote
even a current EV only requires a bit of extra planning to be perfectly fine for all but the most extreme trips. For example, a 500 mile trip would be 8-9 hours of driving and only require about 45 minutes of charge time (probably in more than one stop) assuming a 250m range.

Assuming the chargers work.  And your payment authentication works.  And they're not clogged up (as happens with Tesla stations regularly, during high travel weekends).  And that you've got impossibly fast charging stations.  And that you trust the DC fast charging infrastructure.  And have a car with DC fast charging.  And the car is cool enough to charge quickly, or warm enough to charge quickly (since either end restricts charge rate).

Bit more complex than a gas station, really.

Quote
Construction Cost & perception are the only issues preventing wide scale adoption of EV. Cost, of course, being the biggest factor. Unfortunately, the perception issues will always exist, because people don't like change.

And infrastructure.  Not everyone lives in Seattle or California, and doesn't care to leave those areas!

Look, I get the benefits.  I own a Volt - so, based on many people's standards, a horrid gas guzzler that's the worst of all possible worlds (presumably somehow worse than my 12mpg truck that rarely gets driven).  It's about the only way we can actually have a useful EV-ish vehicle out here, because there is no infrastructure.  I literally cannot charge in town.  I'm paying out of pocket ($900) to put a 240V/50A outlet on a building I find myself at regularly, so I can charge in town a bit more often.  But that will never pay for the installation cost, nor will a 240V charger at home ever be anything but a money sink.  Doesn't mean I'm not doing it, but I don't pretend it's anything but stupid from a financial perspective.

If we bought a used Leaf, we'd have to keep the gas car around for longer trips, or would put enough extra miles on the truck to negate any benefits of the EV.  If we bought a long range EV, the cost is so staggeringly high that it would have never been worth it, by any metric one cared about (for the cost of a high end Tesla, you can buy about 4 man-lifetimes of carbon offsets, if you care about that sort of thing).

They have their uses, but I'd greatly appreciate it if proponents would quit flat out lying about them.  It doesn't help your cause, and when people find out you've sold them a line of utter crap, it doesn't exactly help EVs.

MilesTeg

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2019, 10:46:08 AM »
Passenger vehicle EVs are already *better* than ICE vehicles for everything but trips (and some EVs are already only slightly less convenient than an ICE for long trips).

If your funding is unlimited and you live in an area with plenty of chargers, OK.  Otherwise... eh.  They're a good around town beater, but they're not great for an awful lot of use cases.  A 200 mile range EV is $50k, and, annoyingly, not everyone has $7500/yr of federal tax liability to offset.  This drives me up the f-cking wall when people talk about new EV pricing.  I make good money, and I sure don't pay $7500/yr in federal taxes.  I know people who live very comfortably and pay remarkably little in federal taxes (a few kids tends to do that).  And I've had to growl at a few car salespeople who have insisted that the $7500 tax credit can be subtracted from the price of every new EV.  No, you can't just generally assume that.  It's simply not true outside places like CA where $100k is poverty wages.

Quote
require fewer dedicated refueling stops (charge at home/at work almost all the time)

True... maybe?  Not everyone's work has EV charging.  If you're in the tech industry, and are willing to deal with 40 year old men acting like toddlers over EV charging, sure, you can probably charge at work, but the entire rest of the country isn't there yet.

Yes, you can charge every night at home, but depending on your charging infrastructure (which some people don't have - I guess, if you live in an apartment, you don't count as a real person?), it's not always true.  A 12 hour charging window, on home 120V/16A, gets you around 20kWh, which is 60 miles - useful enough, and you can certainly make it work, but without dedicated higher speed charging infrastructure...

And public charging infrastructure does not meaningfully exist for large parts of the country.  I cannot rely on any public charging infrastructure for us - it simply doesn't exist, and if it does, it's either out of service, or impossible to find.

Quote
easy to start each day with 100% of your range

If you drop a grand or two on 240V charging, and have the panel/transformer to feed it, yes.  Otherwise, see previous comments about limited charging.  I can't charge a big EV out here daily - I simply don't have the amps to do so.

Oh, and that "100% of range" is about 50% of rated range in the winter, if you live somewhere cold.

Quote
are cheaper to fuel/can be fueled for 0 marginal cost in many scenarios.

Cheaper?  Certainly.  Zero marginal cost?  Where on earth do you live that power is... oh, right, tech industry?  Free EV chargers for employees?  In the rest of the world, we all pay for power.  Now, I won't argue about cost - it is almost always cheaper to run an EV, assuming nothing goes wrong, than to buy gas.  And it's a more stable cost as well.  But it's not free.

At 3 mi/kWh, and $0.12/kWh power, our Volt runs $0.04/mi in energy costs.  A 55mpg Prius at $3.50 gas is $0.063/mi in energy costs.  It takes a good while to recover the difference there...

Quote
are cheaper/more convenient to maintain (other than battery) because they have very few moving parts.

In theory, yes.  In reality, at least some of the EVs out there are hellishly expensive to maintain.  A friend of mine with a Model X (which serves mostly as an excuse for him to sit at the Service Center) has tire costs that exceed the fuel costs on a reasonably efficient gas car.  Not counting power or anything else.  He was looking at replacement tires at 10k miles, which is absurd for anything short of something like a modded Supra.  Or a modern EV.

Quote
are higher performance than ICE vehicles, even with lower "specs" due to instant/flat torque curves

From 0-40, sure.  They tend to fall off a cliff in acceleration beyond that, though it's certainly more useful around town.  I do wish some came with better mappings on the throttle, though - on a lot of them, in the normal mode, you literally have to floor it to get it to move in a hurry, because the throttle curves are tuned for efficiency out of the box.  If you're buying $120k cars, sure, they're quick, but most $120k cars are pretty quick.

Quote
can be made safer than ICE vehicles (due to fundamental differences in design requirements)

O... kay?  There's not a huge difference between an overbuilt expensive EV and an overbuilt expensive gas car, in terms of safety results.

Quote
As far as long trips, with the right infrastructure...

Which doesn't exist unless you own a Tesla in the US...

Quote
even a current EV only requires a bit of extra planning to be perfectly fine for all but the most extreme trips. For example, a 500 mile trip would be 8-9 hours of driving and only require about 45 minutes of charge time (probably in more than one stop) assuming a 250m range.

Assuming the chargers work.  And your payment authentication works.  And they're not clogged up (as happens with Tesla stations regularly, during high travel weekends).  And that you've got impossibly fast charging stations.  And that you trust the DC fast charging infrastructure.  And have a car with DC fast charging.  And the car is cool enough to charge quickly, or warm enough to charge quickly (since either end restricts charge rate).

Bit more complex than a gas station, really.

Quote
Construction Cost & perception are the only issues preventing wide scale adoption of EV. Cost, of course, being the biggest factor. Unfortunately, the perception issues will always exist, because people don't like change.

And infrastructure.  Not everyone lives in Seattle or California, and doesn't care to leave those areas!

Look, I get the benefits.  I own a Volt - so, based on many people's standards, a horrid gas guzzler that's the worst of all possible worlds (presumably somehow worse than my 12mpg truck that rarely gets driven).  It's about the only way we can actually have a useful EV-ish vehicle out here, because there is no infrastructure.  I literally cannot charge in town.  I'm paying out of pocket ($900) to put a 240V/50A outlet on a building I find myself at regularly, so I can charge in town a bit more often.  But that will never pay for the installation cost, nor will a 240V charger at home ever be anything but a money sink.  Doesn't mean I'm not doing it, but I don't pretend it's anything but stupid from a financial perspective.

If we bought a used Leaf, we'd have to keep the gas car around for longer trips, or would put enough extra miles on the truck to negate any benefits of the EV.  If we bought a long range EV, the cost is so staggeringly high that it would have never been worth it, by any metric one cared about (for the cost of a high end Tesla, you can buy about 4 man-lifetimes of carbon offsets, if you care about that sort of thing).

They have their uses, but I'd greatly appreciate it if proponents would quit flat out lying about them.  It doesn't help your cause, and when people find out you've sold them a line of utter crap, it doesn't exactly help EVs.

So I was about to write a detailed response here, as I've seen other posts by you and you seemed to be an interesting and knowledgeable person that I could have an interesting conversation with. We could talk about how 60 miles of range a day from 120/16 far exceeds the day to day needs of even most drove-o-holics and how solar panels can provide zero marginal cost recharging and then further our discussion about tires and all the other interesting topics.

But then I saw the end where you show yourself to be nothing but a hostile ass saying I'm lying (rather than having a different opinion or missing some knowledge) and I just want to ask where the bad EV touched you.

Syonyk

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2019, 11:46:04 AM »
But then I saw the end where you show yourself to be nothing but a hostile ass saying I'm lying (rather than having a different opinion or missing some knowledge) and I just want to ask where the bad EV touched you.

Did you miss the part where I own a PHEV?

Also, I didn't specifically limit it to you - I said:

Quote
They have their uses, but I'd greatly appreciate it if proponents would quit flat out lying about them.

You're not the only person I've found who lives in a little bubble where EVs make tons of sense and a $50k car is play money, and I mean, everyone gets the full $7500, what are you, poor?

I was in Seattle for a while, and EVs are insanely common there.  Some people were driving them under the Leaf $200/mo lease deals, which made a ton of sense.  Plenty of other people I knew considered a Tesla a very nice way to improve their commute, because it had "follow that car" mode - and assumed that a $100k car was just one of those things everyone could easily afford.

They are not yet a "works for everyone" case, and certainly not a "works in all areas" case - unless you're spending an awful lot of money on a long range EV.  And, last I checked, this isn't a Tesla forum with a minimum income of 6 figures.

And I wish people who support EVs would realize this.  They are not a perfect solution yet for many people, and it wouldn't kill them to admit the limitations.

I looked pretty hard at buying a beater Leaf out here, but an 80 mile range (winter) doesn't cover all our driving cases - and with zero public charging infrastructure I can rely on, it's not something I'd be willing to subject my wife to when she's hauling the kids around.  Hence the Volt.  I know they're well hated by just about everyone, but a used Volt for $10k is an awful lot better than having to keep two vehicles around, or spending $40k on a long range BEV.

In the land of "Lies I'm particularly irritated by," the $7500 tax credit is a big one.  Not everyone pays $7500/yr in federal taxes, yet everyone just magically assumes that you get the full credit when discussing prices.  I make good money, but I sure don't pay $7500/yr in federal taxes, and I honestly don't think I know a single person out here who does.  I'm in a lower cost of living area.

So I was about to write a detailed response here, as I've seen other posts by you and you seemed to be an interesting and knowledgeable person that I could have an interesting conversation with. We could talk about how 60 miles of range a day from 120/16 far exceeds the day to day needs of even most drove-o-holics and how solar panels can provide zero marginal cost recharging and then further our discussion about tires and all the other interesting topics.

60 miles of range per day is fine, if you have plenty of extra range to work with - if you have a Tesla or Bolt or something, sure.  If you don't have more than 80-100 miles of range (or worse in the winter), it's not useful.  In a moderately common use case, I might make a trip with the car in the morning into town (20 miles), my wife might make a trip into Boise with the kids for the zoo or something (30-50 miles round trip, depending on where we go), and then... if we have something in the evening, well, take the truck, I guess.  It's not a daily thing, but once a month or so, we'll put 100 miles on the car - sometimes without much time at home to charge.  Since there's no charging infrastructure (beyond bumming a 120V garage outlet, which I do quite regularly if I'm somewhere for a while), I'd need a long range BEV to make that happen, or we'd have to move stuff over to the truck and take it - which really does defeat any fuel savings.  Putting miles on a 12mpg truck because the BEV is out of range isn't useful.

And solar panel charging isn't "zero marginal cost" driving - you've had to size the system for it, and it's probably still beating the crap out of the grid with net metering (which is going away in many areas).  If you put in an off grid system to charge, or a hybrid system with batteries, ok, but those aren't exactly cheap either.

When I talk to people out here about BEVs, I typically either suggest a Volt, or suggest a Leaf as a secondary runabout (most people own quite a few vehicles, so adding another one isn't a big increase in holding costs, and it does keep miles off more expensive to run vehicles).

When used 200 mile range EVs are down in the $10k-$15k range, sure.  They're a lot more useful to people in a wider range of conditions.  But that's not the case yet, and won't be for quite a few years.

teltic

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2019, 12:46:03 PM »
Random.  But I ALMOST bought a 2011 Nissan Leaf S for $4200 with new batteries (installed 10k miles ago).  The ad was posted Saturday night at 8PM, I responded Sunday morning at 9AM, was #2 to text... The first guy bought it.

I will buy an electric car.  It will happen.  It just has to financially make sense (which I think is a new leaf for <$15k or a used one for ~$5k).

I'm still surprised MMM scored one for $15k.  I can't find a dealer to quote me less than $22k net of rebates ($7500 fed, $3500 local electric company).

MilesTeg

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2019, 01:47:16 PM »
But then I saw the end where you show yourself to be nothing but a hostile ass saying I'm lying (rather than having a different opinion or missing some knowledge) and I just want to ask where the bad EV touched you.

Did you miss the part where I own a PHEV?

Also, I didn't specifically limit it to you - I said:

Quote
They have their uses, but I'd greatly appreciate it if proponents would quit flat out lying about them.

You're not the only person I've found who lives in a little bubble where EVs make tons of sense and a $50k car is play money, and I mean, everyone gets the full $7500, what are you, poor?

I was in Seattle for a while, and EVs are insanely common there.  Some people were driving them under the Leaf $200/mo lease deals, which made a ton of sense.  Plenty of other people I knew considered a Tesla a very nice way to improve their commute, because it had "follow that car" mode - and assumed that a $100k car was just one of those things everyone could easily afford.

They are not yet a "works for everyone" case, and certainly not a "works in all areas" case - unless you're spending an awful lot of money on a long range EV.  And, last I checked, this isn't a Tesla forum with a minimum income of 6 figures.

And I wish people who support EVs would realize this.  They are not a perfect solution yet for many people, and it wouldn't kill them to admit the limitations.

I looked pretty hard at buying a beater Leaf out here, but an 80 mile range (winter) doesn't cover all our driving cases - and with zero public charging infrastructure I can rely on, it's not something I'd be willing to subject my wife to when she's hauling the kids around.  Hence the Volt.  I know they're well hated by just about everyone, but a used Volt for $10k is an awful lot better than having to keep two vehicles around, or spending $40k on a long range BEV.

In the land of "Lies I'm particularly irritated by," the $7500 tax credit is a big one.  Not everyone pays $7500/yr in federal taxes, yet everyone just magically assumes that you get the full credit when discussing prices.  I make good money, but I sure don't pay $7500/yr in federal taxes, and I honestly don't think I know a single person out here who does.  I'm in a lower cost of living area.

So I was about to write a detailed response here, as I've seen other posts by you and you seemed to be an interesting and knowledgeable person that I could have an interesting conversation with. We could talk about how 60 miles of range a day from 120/16 far exceeds the day to day needs of even most drove-o-holics and how solar panels can provide zero marginal cost recharging and then further our discussion about tires and all the other interesting topics.

60 miles of range per day is fine, if you have plenty of extra range to work with - if you have a Tesla or Bolt or something, sure.  If you don't have more than 80-100 miles of range (or worse in the winter), it's not useful.  In a moderately common use case, I might make a trip with the car in the morning into town (20 miles), my wife might make a trip into Boise with the kids for the zoo or something (30-50 miles round trip, depending on where we go), and then... if we have something in the evening, well, take the truck, I guess.  It's not a daily thing, but once a month or so, we'll put 100 miles on the car - sometimes without much time at home to charge.  Since there's no charging infrastructure (beyond bumming a 120V garage outlet, which I do quite regularly if I'm somewhere for a while), I'd need a long range BEV to make that happen, or we'd have to move stuff over to the truck and take it - which really does defeat any fuel savings.  Putting miles on a 12mpg truck because the BEV is out of range isn't useful.

And solar panel charging isn't "zero marginal cost" driving - you've had to size the system for it, and it's probably still beating the crap out of the grid with net metering (which is going away in many areas).  If you put in an off grid system to charge, or a hybrid system with batteries, ok, but those aren't exactly cheap either.

When I talk to people out here about BEVs, I typically either suggest a Volt, or suggest a Leaf as a secondary runabout (most people own quite a few vehicles, so adding another one isn't a big increase in holding costs, and it does keep miles off more expensive to run vehicles).

When used 200 mile range EVs are down in the $10k-$15k range, sure.  They're a lot more useful to people in a wider range of conditions.  But that's not the case yet, and won't be for quite a few years.

If you'd set aside the hysterics and focus on what I actually said, you'd notice that I did NOT say they were affordable to everyone or that they were better for all use cases.

EVs are still too expensive and there isn't enough infrastructure, but they are superior to ICE passenger vehicles for all the reasons I stated.

Solve the price problem, you increase demand for both the vehicles and the infrastructure. Of course laws of supply and demand are at play but given that you can buy a 200+ mile range EV today (from multiple makers) for pretty much exactly the median new car purchase price says were getting pretty close on price.

And of course, if we didn't externalize so many costs for ICE vehicles it would already be no contest. EVs would already be the most common vehicle on the road (not that they'd be any cheaper, but they would be relative to ICE costs).

And yeah, solar charging is a zero marginal cost option, even if you didn't size your system for the vehicle and could only supplement grid power. That's because solar always provides zero marginal cost to produce electricity. The only costs for solar are installation and maintenance. Put another way, whether you use 0hwh or the maximum they can produce, they cost the same.

Jon Bon

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2019, 10:15:59 AM »
@MilesTeg @Syonyk


I have really enjoyed your discussion, you both are making great points.

On the solar charging options I have a few questions.  In general I dont feel they are worth it but it is probably in large part of where I live.

What does a decent sized solar set up cost to have installed?
What kind of monthly savings would that provide?
and
What is the life span of a solar array?

I feel like dollars and cents answers to this would help the discussion along.

Thanks!

Syonyk

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2019, 11:12:20 AM »
If you'd set aside the hysterics and focus on what I actually said, you'd notice that I did NOT say they were affordable to everyone or that they were better for all use cases.

You said:

Passenger vehicle EVs are already *better* than ICE vehicles for everything but trips (and some EVs are already only slightly less convenient than an ICE for long trips).

And then backed your claim.

For "everything but trips" is almost all use cases, and relatively few of the points I argued with you on were related to trips.

Quote
Solve the price problem, you increase demand for both the vehicles and the infrastructure. Of course laws of supply and demand are at play but given that you can buy a 200+ mile range EV today (from multiple makers) for pretty much exactly the median new car purchase price says were getting pretty close on price.

... huh.  Ew.  I didn't realize the median price was up to $35k.  That's an insane amount of money for a car.


What does a decent sized solar set up cost to have installed?

As much as your local installers think the market will support.  They'll come up with some very creative estimations about your future power costs to "prove" that you'll save a ton of money financing a system through them, even if those numbers have no actual connection to reality or the plans of your local power company.

Typically a residential install will be $3-$4/W installed, though a better price is around $2/W, and a DIY grid tie install (to code) could be down around $1.50/W or lower.  If you're under older NECs, you can probably get it a bit lower, but NEC 2017 was bought and paid for by Enphase.

Quote
What kind of monthly savings would that provide?

It entirely depends on your power rate schedule, interconnect agreements, and a lot of other stuff.  Almost certainly less than your local solar installer glossy brochure claims.

Quote
What is the life span of a solar array?

30+ years - they don't generally die, they just produce less output over time.  The inverters eventually die and need replacement, but power electronics are very well understood.  Get a big, heavy, low energy density inverter and it will very likely outlast a lighter/smaller unit.

Quote
I feel like dollars and cents answers to this would help the discussion along.

There are no general purpose answers.  Rural eastern Washington looks totally different from southern California.

Jon Bon

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2019, 11:45:18 AM »
Ok fair enough......

I guess my thinking is 20 grand on a system is never going to be worth it even if I get 'free' electricity for the life of the system. The up front costs against the time value of money on discounting those free years of electricity the break even never makes sense for most people.

So many of these current green/environmental products are nothing more then marketing. Sure they might offset your carbon footprint a bit, but likely in the least efficient way possible in #C02/$

But back to cars.......

My main thought is that the big major players are just plain not trying. They are maybe having a bit of a Kodak moment? They have made so much money for so long doing things one way, it might prove impossible for them to change. Most definitely feels true for the big 3 American Truck makers. I mean cars, big 3 american car(truck) makers......

The volt I would argue was pretty revolutionary when it came out, nothing else was like it. It solves the range anxiety problem, was a 'good enough' EV and was loved by most of its owners. But Chevy was obviously not committed to it despite billions in development costs. They just make too much money selling trucks.

So maybe I need to change my above thesis. Its not really a manufacturer problem, its more of a demand side problem. So obviously the answer is electric Rams/F150s/Silverados. Customers are obviously NOT price sensitive on those freaking monsters, so all hail the electric truck!












Syonyk

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2019, 11:54:38 AM »
I guess my thinking is 20 grand on a system is never going to be worth it even if I get 'free' electricity for the life of the system. The up front costs against the time value of money on discounting those free years of electricity the break even never makes sense for most people.

Again, it depends.  What's your power cost?  What sort of state/federal rebates do you get?  What's your energy use?

Someone with a pure electric house in an area with high power costs is obviously going to get more value out of solar than someone with a bunch of natural gas appliances in an area with dirt cheap power and no sun.

But, yes, your ballpark estimation tends to be correct for systems installed by commercial installers.  For the cost of a basic grid tie system, I can build something with battery backup, though I'm paying someone else for plans at this point because the NEC compliance issues are quite tricky (and the reviewer for this state is... "prove to me you've met the letter of all the code sections I think are relevant, and of course you know what all those are, right?").

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So many of these current green/environmental products are nothing more then marketing. Sure they might offset your carbon footprint a bit, but likely in the least efficient way possible in #C02/$

Distributed solar is nice, but I'm a larger fan of the industrial solar farms - they're around $1/W or less, and work a lot better with our current power grid.

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The volt I would argue was pretty revolutionary when it came out, nothing else was like it. It solves the range anxiety problem, was a 'good enough' EV and was loved by most of its owners. But Chevy was obviously not committed to it despite billions in development costs. They just make too much money selling trucks.

I suspect part of the problem is that it wasn't cost effective to build.  The Gen1 is massively over-engineered, and the Gen2 is still quite over-engineered.  I doubt Chevy made much on them.  However, that model is a good way to build more vehicles, and offset more gasoline use, than large long range BEVs, in terms of being battery production limited.

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So maybe I need to change my above thesis. Its not really a manufacturer problem, its more of a demand side problem. So obviously the answer is electric Rams/F150s/Silverados. Customers are obviously NOT price sensitive on those freaking monsters, so all hail the electric truck!

They'll show up when it's possible to do it feasibly.  An electric truck has quite a few advantages in terms of operating costs for business use, but they're not going to be quite as useful for individuals who haul trailers for a while - a truck that can haul a 5th wheel some useful distance will make a $70k Super Duty look cheap.

I do think a plug in hybrid truck (say 50kWh of battery, and a 200hp motor/generator combo) would be quite popular, as you can do the local stuff on battery.  For longer trips you have the motor for sustaining highway speed, and can use the battery bank for climbing.  Plus, for the RV'ers, with a tiny bit of work, the truck is a 50A/240V plugin, wherever you go.  If you can run a several hundred horsepower electric motor, you can run an RV from the inverter as well, and a truck engine idling to charge the battery is going to be an awful lot quieter than a small generator.

TheAnonOne

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2019, 12:03:55 PM »
I have a GEN 1 volt and it is isn't nearly as "smart" as the new cars.

It's also the best of both worlds as far as EVs vs ICE cars go. 35-50 miles on battery 100%, plug it in at home and never buy gas. Doing a road trip or need to drive all day around town? Well it charges the battery with the onboard generator.

They are also CHEAP now, many under 10k with 50k miles or less...

MilesTeg

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2019, 10:17:49 AM »
@MilesTeg @Syonyk


I have really enjoyed your discussion, you both are making great points.

On the solar charging options I have a few questions.  In general I dont feel they are worth it but it is probably in large part of where I live.

What does a decent sized solar set up cost to have installed?
What kind of monthly savings would that provide?
and
What is the life span of a solar array?

I feel like dollars and cents answers to this would help the discussion along.

Thanks!

Most of your question has been answered very well, but I will point out that having an EV can significantly increase the ROI and drastically cut the "break even" time for a solar installation.

If you're like us ( cheap power, low-ish electricity usage ) solar power for the home is not very financially viable (it would take 20-30 years for us to reach break-even by which time it is likely that the performance of the array has dropped so much it would need major work).

But for us, who have pretty average driving habits, having an EV that is only 50% charged from solar driven off a solar array could cut our break-even in half (10-15 years) which makes solar a viable financial choice AND also drastically reduces the TCO of the EV (zero cost fuel makes a huge difference in TCO!).

One of the problems with solar power is typically you don't use a lot of power during the day when the array is generating power, but a car can be charging off that array during daylight hours pretty often (even if you use the car for work, there are still a lot of daylight hours that you are not at work in a work week).

Syonyk

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2019, 11:01:28 PM »
I have a GEN 1 volt and it is isn't nearly as "smart" as the new cars.

And it's not that hard to pull the OnStar cell modem out of completely, if you care.  Though I'm pretty sure the cell bands they use are being dropped by the providers soon, so no real reason to bother - they won't have towers to talk to soon enough.

On the flip side, with the right adapter, you can talk to it like the dealer can.  I can flash the firmware if I get the software subscription.

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It's also the best of both worlds as far as EVs vs ICE cars go. 35-50 miles on battery 100%, plug it in at home and never buy gas. Doing a road trip or need to drive all day around town? Well it charges the battery with the onboard generator.

Minor nitpick, it doesn't charge the battery, it just maintains the low state of charge.  Energy mostly flows straight from MGB to MGA when running on the gas engine, though at highway speeds, the whole planetary gearset is taking energy from the gas engine.  Unless you select mountain mode below 40% SoC, then, yes, it will howl away and charge the battery.  Don't do that. :p

But, yes, it's really a good compromise.  We get 300-ish miles per gallon of gas used on ours, and that's on 120V charging only - eventually, we'll have 240V charging...

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They are also CHEAP now, many under 10k with 50k miles or less...

Cheap, well engineered, works on the current infrastructure, nice to drive, easy(ish) to work on... I've got no complaints so far!

One of the problems with solar power is typically you don't use a lot of power during the day when the array is generating power, but a car can be charging off that array during daylight hours pretty often (even if you use the car for work, there are still a lot of daylight hours that you are not at work in a work week).

Or just face your array east-west.  Though installer rates make that rather non-affordable. :(

Ecky

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2019, 09:59:57 AM »
Probably the least "smart" hybrid is the first generation Honda Insight. Easy 60-80mpg, and mechanically very reliable. Most of them have failed batteries at this point but they can be bypassed and continue running as a very economical 60-80mpg gasoline-only vehicle.

Best part, they're 100% aluminum and thus nearly impervious to road salt.

HipGnosis

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2019, 03:32:29 PM »
I got a '14 Ford Fusion Hybrid SE last year.
The only remotely 'smart' thing about it is that it will connect to a cell phone via bluetooth.

Note that it (and I assume all hybrids) do NOT get good gas mileage on short trips in the cold - it runs the gas engine to warm it up for the heater (even if the heater is turned off!).
I live in Wisc., so it definitely effects me.

Syonyk

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Re: Used electric/hybrid car that is not "smart"?
« Reply #38 on: June 09, 2019, 04:05:06 PM »
Note that it (and I assume all hybrids) do NOT get good gas mileage on short trips in the cold - it runs the gas engine to warm it up for the heater (even if the heater is turned off!).

It depends on the vehicle, but for a plug in hybrid, it's almost certainly heating the battery pack.  A cold lithium pack can't be safely charged - which means even things like regenerative braking don't work on a cold enough pack.

The Volt runs the engine in the winter for heat, but it still gets good use of the battery pack.  Our "bad" fuel economy in the winter is 100 miles per gallon of gas, and that will go up significantly when I get 240V charging hooked up.