The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: hyenas on July 20, 2014, 08:12:49 AM
-
Like many of you do...
I drive an old car, I live in a little house, I have old furniture, and most of my repairs are DIY. But I'm sick and tired of everyone (family, neighbors, friends) thinking that I'm financially struggling. I am not poor. I spent most of my childhood being truly poor (well, American poor), and I was so excited to no longer be sneered at by everyone. Nope. No such luck.
I adopted a wonderful child through the state foster care system (most frugal way btw, cost about $500) which means in my state she has state insurance, subsidized daycare, WIC, and b/c she's handicapped there are automatic state disability payments (which happen to come on an EBT card just like welfare payments). So I look poor.
I know this is shallow, and it shouldn't actually matter. But I'm tired of grocery store cashiers being rude, people commenting on what I buy with my "welfare". I want to brand my networth into my forehead. Last year at her (wealthy) preschool I had to go through four "homevisits" simply because my earned income was so low.
How do you deal with the lack of social status that being Mustachian seems to bring with it? I'm not talking about people not inviting you to join their country club. But the discrimination that people who are poor deal with every day in this country.
-
First, you choose how you react to anything in life. When someone looks down on you, take it as a reminder of what's important to you and why you are choosing to live this way. There is no reason to look down on them, but at least realize you don't want to live paycheck to paycheck in order to appear rich like them, you want to be rich even it that means appearing poor. There's nothing wrong with that.
Also, here's 6 pages of comments from other mustachians on the subject. Hopefully this will make you feel at peace with your lifestyle.
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/do-you-look-poor-to-people/
Very cool that you adopted a foster child. Keep your head up. You're not doing this for them, you're doing it for you and your child.
-
First off, I want to thank you for adopting a special needs child. You must be an amazing person with a huge heart.
Second, I understand where you're coming from. My side hustle involves climbing into trash dumpsters and pulling out items to sell on eBay. Not exactly something you talk about at dinner parties!
My personal strategy for handling the disdainful looks is to play along. And play it up. Oh my gosh, I'm so poor the beggars give ME money!
Somehow when you start joking about it, it takes all the fire and venom out of people. You're ruining their fun when you cease to be the joke and start being the jokester.
Maybe that doesn't help much, but I want you to know I sympathize. Mustachians may never win the flashy award, but we always win on substance. And you're top notch.
-
I have often felt the same way. I live in a very wealthy area and my colleagues regularly go out to eat, the movies, vacations, buy nice clothes, put marble in the bathroom and renovate the kitchen. I spent Memorial Day weekend replacing a window with me up there on the ladder myself. And while I'm proud of myself and my 'stashe I feel like the neighbors look at me weird. MMM talks about having like minded friends and I would love to have like minded friends but haven't found them. In the meantime I feel like an outcast or weirdo in the circles in which I move. I try not to let it get to me but it does. My goal is to retire in 3 years either fully retire or partially retire and I try to focus on that goal and let the thoughts of weird looks roll off. Easier said than done sometimes.
I don't think there is an easy answer - upgrade your lifestyle and change your goals or get new friends. Just not easy in any way.
-
Have you ever seen the show Columbo? The main character (Lt. Columbo) wears the same shabby outfit every show and has an old beater of a car. He gets a lot of razzing about it. Was once even cast in a play as a "homeless man" because he wandered on set and they mistook him for that role. Lol! Does it bother him? Nah. It's almost a source of pride. Anyways, I think you're amazing and I don't want to discount your feelings - because I'm sure it's exhausting... But it's kind of my goal in life to get to where you are. My parents are FIRE, and they wear old jeans, tshirts, and regular shoes or rubber boots (they live on a farm). You don't know they're well off unless you see their farm or know that they paid for their vehicle in cash. I think it's cool - like having a secret, or being incognito! And no one is going to hit you up for cash ;)
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Thanks for the link to the other post. I'm going to read through it. I know this is a shallow reaction. I just never have had much success with telling myself what I should be feeling.
I have trouble finding like-minded people. My friends either end up being a lot poorer than me, because I meet them at salvage yards or while complaining about parking fees. Or a lot "richer' because I met them at my private school or university.
I'm so grateful for these forums. :)
-
It's terrible to be penalized for appearances! I'm sorry you have felt judged. I don't have a lot of insight here because I don't have a special needs child but the first thing that popped into my head it that perhaps there is a support or Meetup group for other parents of special needs kids in your area. You might find some like minded people in a group like that and your child might meet some new friends. You are obviously not the only person received EBT payments for a special needs kid and I'm sure other parents must have some of the same feelings you do when they use their EBT. BTW, who are these people watching other people's shopping transactions like a hawk and leveling judgment against them? I've read about this sort of behavior in other forums and I'm pretty shocked. When I'm waiting in line at the grocery store I'm usually staring off into space.
-
I know this is a shallow reaction. I just never have had much success with telling myself what I should be feeling.
Your feelings are not wrong! You're absolutely entitled to feel shitty about being mistreated--and you are being mistreated. I wish I had advice for you, but I all I have is some validation and good wishes.
I hope you can find some folks with similar experiences. Nothing is as cathartic as finding someone to relate to.
-
Recently my son was diagnosed with a rare serious heart condition before he was born. When I told family and friends about it the next reaction was "do you need money". I am only 25 and my wife 26. We have good jobs and nice house and cars. We are new mustachians but have always been big savers. So I was shocked that was the first thing people asked me is if we need money. It seems just because I am in my 20s and having my first child that I wont be able to afford anything. I keep reassuring people that we can take care of ourselves. But because we have a clothes line, have old clothes, grow our own veggies and don't buy stupid shit that we are thought to be financially insufficient to raise a child with a serious health condition.
It seems nobody ever seems to think that maybe my wife and I live the way we do to prepare for such awful circumstances
-
SouthernHippie, perhaps they were concerned about massive medical expenses.
-
Have you ever seen the show Columbo? The main character (Lt. Columbo) wears the same shabby outfit every show and has an old beater of a car. He gets a lot of razzing about it. Was once even cast in a play as a "homeless man" because he wandered on set and they mistook him for that role. Lol! Does it bother him? Nah. It's almost a source of pride.
I love the Columbo reference. The beauty of his shabbiness was that the bad guys did not take him seriously, until his net of evidence started closing in, and by then it was too late. At the end they realized just how smart Columbo was, and how he had maneuvered them all along.
A very encouraging analogy for mustachians to hold on to. People may not recognize how smart you are now, but eventually they will.
-
(http://cdn.meme.li/instances/500x/52779796.jpg)
A very encouraging analogy for mustachians to hold on to. People may not recognize how smart you are now, but eventually they will.
Why does your success or failure depend on people "recognizing" how smart you are?
Best,
Mr. PoP
-
Have you ever seen the show Columbo? The main character (Lt. Columbo) wears the same shabby outfit every show and has an old beater of a car. He gets a lot of razzing about it. Was once even cast in a play as a "homeless man" because he wandered on set and they mistook him for that role. Lol! Does it bother him? Nah. It's almost a source of pride.
I love the Columbo reference. The beauty of his shabbiness was that the bad guys did not take him seriously, until his net of evidence started closing in, and by then it was too late. At the end they realized just how smart Columbo was, and how he had maneuvered them all along.
A very encouraging analogy for mustachians to hold on to. People may not recognize how smart you are now, but eventually they will.
Oh, and just one more thing... ;)
Lol ok but for real - I do think society might be harder on shabby "poor-looking" women than it is on men. A woman in sweatpants and flip flops has maybe "let herself go" but a man in the same attire is probably just a tech start-up billionaire. Know what I mean? I don't agree with it, I just see examples of it in mass media.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
-
Your feelings are valid. Humans, as social animals, need and thrive on social status. That's why all the non-frugal people leverage themselves to the hilt to look like something they are not.
By definition, what we here as a group are doing is anti-social. Not in an aggressive way, but we are invalidating the opinions of others for what WE believe in. So if you really don't like the shabby treatment, you can choose to dress a little nicer and drive a little nicer car, while learning to do so at frugal ways. You can also go shop where they appreciate your business.
In the end, you can't change how the world works. But you can change how much you care about it, or where you go to find validation.
Personally, I take pride in how shabby I dress because I own several nice suits and lots of nice shirts and wool pants but I love to dress comfortably and out of fashion.
-
I agree it's not fair but those are the ropes. People will judge you on appearance....period.
Why do you think people judge you? Do you wear shabby clothing? Is your car all dented up? Do you like the way you look? Do you like the way your car looks?
You don't need to look poor and still have a MMM savings rate and financial worth thing going on.....you know this right? :)
If you're fine the way you are the F them! Complaining will do nothing
If you're truly not happy with your appearance, car and old furniture then spend some money to fix those issues. So you old off FIRE for a couple years....so what? :)
-
. BTW, who are these people watching other people's shopping transactions like a hawk and leveling judgment against them? I've read about this sort of behavior in other forums and I'm pretty shocked. When I'm waiting in line at the grocery store I'm usually staring off into space.
Me too, I don't pay any attention in the checkout line - except if you end up behind someone with a fistful of coupons AND using their checkbook!
Seems like e-payment is e-payment, whether credit card, debit card, or EBT card. What am I missing here?
-
I guess you have to adopt the "who cares?" attitude and internalize it.
As for the intrusive home visits, I'm assuming those are conditions of receiving welfare. You take the good with the bad.
-
Clothes are a tool that intermittently come in handy for impressing strangers. It doesn't break a Mustachian budget to have a change of clothes held in reserve for such circumstances. Poor folk know this, and those who live on a similar budget will find it useful to do likewise.
-
What other people think of me is none of my business.
When you judge another, you do not define them. You define yourself.
Quotes from Wayne Dyer (an obviously smart and content man).
Also, I have picked up some VERY nice shirts in excellent condition at Goodwill. So you can be poor and not look it, and you can also look and be rich without spending a lot of money.
And... this is probably why nudists are such nice people. They don't judge you by your clothes (or lack thereof). They are concerned about the person.
-
Personally, I like people thinking I'm poor - it makes them less likely to ask to borrow money or try to sell me something. Or try to rob/scam me in a foreign country.
-
"Men judge generally more by the eye than by the hand, for everyone can see and few can feel. Every one sees what you appear to be, few really know what you are."
-Niccolo Machiavelli, The Prince
That's my fancy way of agreeing with the other poster who said that people are going to judge you by your appearance. Fact of life.
The good news is that it doesn't cost much to look rich (with the exception of your transportation...can't get around that one). If you want to look as rich as you are, dress like it. I've been broke as a joke (relatively speaking) for years while going through school, but I dress like a high-rolling corporate big wig. The fun part is that even when I'm dressed "rich," I'm probably never wearing more than $300 total, including shoes. Make friends with eBay and your local tailor. If you want to get even cheaper than full suit, you can probably just get some business casual clothes from the thrift store. As long as they fit well, 95% of people will never know the difference.
BTW, mad respect for the adoption. I wish more people adopted.
-
Like many of you do...
I drive an old car, I live in a little house, I have old furniture, and most of my repairs are DIY. But I'm sick and tired of everyone (family, neighbors, friends) thinking that I'm financially struggling. I am not poor. I spent most of my childhood being truly poor (well, American poor), and I was so excited to no longer be sneered at by everyone. Nope. No such luck.
I adopted a wonderful child through the state foster care system (most frugal way btw, cost about $500) which means in my state she has state insurance, subsidized daycare, WIC, and b/c she's handicapped there are automatic state disability payments (which happen to come on an EBT card just like welfare payments). So I look poor.
I know this is shallow, and it shouldn't actually matter. But I'm tired of grocery store cashiers being rude, people commenting on what I buy with my "welfare". I want to brand my networth into my forehead. Last year at her (wealthy) preschool I had to go through four "homevisits" simply because my earned income was so low.
How do you deal with the lack of social status that being Mustachian seems to bring with it? I'm not talking about people not inviting you to join their country club. But the discrimination that people who are poor deal with every day in this country.
I'm sure you are placing your child into the preschool because of the excellent education for her. However, watch the social cues for disdain for her, too. There may be a point in the future where you want her in a less "aspiring" culture and may have to sacrifice "educational" aspect for that.
Personally, I am deeply skeptical of "good schools," what that means and what that achieves. It's a tremendously complex issue, I know. I don't have children and so will shut up now about it, but you probably know what I mean about the "aspiring" culture found within "good schools." blech.
-
It's a balancing act. I just bought a house and will be moving for the school district change. The one I was in had some poor areas nearby and the school test scores were pretty bad as a result. Unfortunately, income level directly correlates to test scores and achievement in school. It's another whole discussion.
But I do like the idea of using shabbiness or unfanciness as a theft and loan request deterent. People who know us well knows that we are financially ok. But from the outside of my house, it does not look fancy at all. Very simple and clean but not fancy. Clean paint but very regular level door knobs and doors and furnishings from the outside. A thief would rightly think that there's not much to steal. And same with when I go to the store and some begger asks me if I have some change. I give them the look like, "do I look like I have any money?" and tell them that I don't have any cash. They take one look at me and think, "meh, he's probably telling the truth." So there are perks of looking not rich.
-
i admit i did not read all posts, but it is not anti-mustacian to look nice. do NOT need to spend lots of money to look nice. clean, pressed, pulled together clothing, neat, clean personal grooming and some well choosen accessories go a LONG way towards a respectful (ie. respect given by strangers) then any amount of money. and that can all be had with a trip to the thrift store!
a couple of collared shirts from goodwill for 2 bucks a piece and the use of an iron can make all the difference. i do NOT think being mustacian means I need to "look poor" (whatever that means). i also do not think it means I need to look rough, unkempt or dirty. sweatpants and tank top might be ok for bed but not the grocery store. right or wrong, it is true that people make assumptions based on appearance. but i do not agree that appearance is a good indication of net worth. some of the best dressed are also in debt. you can go a long way with a very few nice outfits, you dont' need 40. kwim?
-
A very encouraging analogy for mustachians to hold on to. People may not recognize how smart you are now, but eventually they will.
Why does your success or failure depend on people "recognizing" how smart you are?
Best,
Mr. PoP
I didn't say it did. Okay ... maybe there is a bit of smug satisfaction to the idea.
But the point is to be good at what you do, whether you look flashy or not. Substance over style, especially for financial matters.
-
We are in a rural area, so not as much of a social climbing environment. Even so, I'm pretty oblivious to what others are thinking about my social status. If I do happen to clue in to someone who thinks me poor, I'm secretly amused that they don't have any idea of our net worth.
A few weeks ago we were replacing my deceased minivan (with a very nice car from last century), and stopped in the bank to get the cash to buy it. DH told me he noticed the teller sizing him up while he waited; he said she probably thought he was broke. When she got to him, she pulled up our accounts, and her attitude abruptly changed, she started trying to sell him credit cards. Of course, she was talking all about the interest rate - we don't care about the rate on a card, we pay it off every month! We had a good laugh about the whole thing, and discussed how non-mustachians don't quite know what to make of us. Honestly, we don't care what "they" think. I either think they are idiots for living paycheck to paycheck on an income double ours, or feel sorry for them that they haven't yet learned better.
-
"Your feelings are valid. Humans, as social animals, need and thrive on social status. That's why all the non-frugal people leverage themselves to the hilt to look like something they are not.
By definition, what we here as a group are doing is anti-social. Not in an aggressive way, but we are invalidating the opinions of others for what WE believe in."
^This. That's why it's so hard.
I don't know how clothes got into the discussion...but I look good. Real good. Well, I look like a hipster redneck. But that's perfectly fine. Also, I'm not on any income based welfare. It wouldn't matter how much money I make, I'd still receive all the state benefits, think of it as the state's "child support" payments. I guess I could actively reject them to avoid the stigma, but that would be stupid.
The visits are entirely at the preschool's discretion. And they choose who to visit by asking what the earned income level of the parents is. My earned income is non-existent. We live on a combination of rental and investment returns. I do understand that at a statistical level that child neglect, abuse etc. are more prevalent (are they?) at the lower income levels. It seems like people are being punished for being (or appearing) poor.
I can't wait to get her into a different school. However, this is the only place willing to work with her disabilities. If we were actually a low income household she could go to headstart. Next school year though the public schools will have to accept her enrollment.
Thanks for all the tea and sympathy guys. :)
-
Could you pull off an "old money" attitude? Where I grew up wearing brand spanking new clothes was something ghetto poor people did whereas the well-off could afford to wear worn clothes, drive old cars, etc., because they felt so financially comfortable.
-
Here's my story.. Several times in these numerous posts I refer to being derided by my family for being cheap.
Yes I have suffered this derision for years.. However when you finally do walk out the door at a young age and you just know people can't quite believe you can afford to do it.
Well.. Priceless..:)
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/i-retired-today!-)/
-
It sounds like one of the main issues is that the school is targeting you as needing excessive welfare checks based on the idea that you have no earned income and therefore must be (as far as they're concerned) some sort of poor trashy family that probably isn't capable of caring properly for your kid. I'd actually take it up with the school's administration. Have you discussed that you are concerned about the time and resources they are wasting "investigating" your family based off of the earned income basis - they are ignoring the idea that you are financially independent based off of rental property, and wonder at whether they are going after all of the independently wealthy with the same attitude since they also couldn't show actual earned income? They are profiling, plain and simple.
-
I'm with Frankies Girl...I am fine if people think we are in the same financial boat as most of my peer group (military, so there's a lot debt and flashy spending to keep up appearances), but would draw the line at the school putting a crosshair on us.
If your kid comes to school with a mark on her from usual kid activities you don't want the default set at "abuse" because they believe you are destitute (a terrible assumption, of course). Schools can have a powerful pull with Child Protective Services or similar agencies in your area.
So in this case I would make an appointment with the principal/director and ensure he or she understands that you are financially secure. Brief the individual and bring a copy of your bank statement. Word will get out among the staff that you are a wealthy eccentric and the harassment should stop.
-
Have you ever seen the show Columbo? The main character (Lt. Columbo) wears the same shabby outfit every show and has an old beater of a car. He gets a lot of razzing about it. Was once even cast in a play as a "homeless man" because he wandered on set and they mistook him for that role. Lol! Does it bother him? Nah. It's almost a source of pride.
25 and making a (relevant) Columbo analogy? *thumbs up* I try to make Columbo references IRL and no one gets them :-(
-
If you want to meet like-minded people, have you considered organizing a Meet Up? People on these boards do this all the time and it's a great way to socialize with people who share your financial values.
-
First off, I want to thank you for adopting a special needs child. You must be an amazing person with a huge heart.
Second, I understand where you're coming from. My side hustle involves climbing into trash dumpsters and pulling out items to sell on eBay. Not exactly something you talk about at dinner parties!
My personal strategy for handling the disdainful looks is to play along. And play it up. Oh my gosh, I'm so poor the beggars give ME money!
Somehow when you start joking about it, it takes all the fire and venom out of people. You're ruining their fun when you cease to be the joke and start being the jokester.
Maybe that doesn't help much, but I want you to know I sympathize. Mustachians may never win the flashy award, but we always win on substance. And you're top notch.
I was going to post something and then I read this post and don't think I can top it. This says what I think--except for the dumpster part. ;-)
-
I have trouble finding like-minded people. My friends either end up being a lot poorer than me, because I meet them at salvage yards or while complaining about parking fees. Or a lot "richer' because I met them at my private school or university.
I'm so grateful for these forums. :)
You note yourself that you want like-minded people. I am just going to point out that whether they are rich or poor doesn't matter. What matters is their mindset…and love.
I am practicing not caring what people think and not getting invested in their story or my story. You might read some Pema Chodron (sp??) if you want to read more on that topic. She writes wise words on getting untangled from stories (our own, mostly) and regaining peace.
-
. BTW, who are these people watching other people's shopping transactions like a hawk and leveling judgment against them? I've read about this sort of behavior in other forums and I'm pretty shocked. When I'm waiting in line at the grocery store I'm usually staring off into space.
Me too, I don't pay any attention in the checkout line - except if you end up behind someone with a fistful of coupons AND using their checkbook!
Seems like e-payment is e-payment, whether credit card, debit card, or EBT card. What am I missing here?
I know right? I don't even know what an EBT card looks like. I don't know how I would notice!
honestly, in your situation if someone commented on this I would straight-up tell them why my child and I receive the benefits. bet they would be embarrassed as fuck. assholes.
Could you pull off an "old money" attitude? Where I grew up wearing brand spanking new clothes was something ghetto poor people did whereas the well-off could afford to wear worn clothes, drive old cars, etc., because they felt so financially comfortable.
oh yeah, I actually like thinking this to myself. I also liked someone else's comment about the school realizing you are a "wealthy eccentric," LOL I love that phrase. I mean, how insanely badass is it that you are able to support yourself and your child off of passive income?!? (not to mention how insanely badass you are for adopting in the first place, kudos!)
anyway, good luck and I hope you are able to find some like-minded friendship and support IRL, it definitely helps a lot!!
-
You are an amazing person. Do not let what others may perceive to bother you.
-
We look poor, but that is because we ARE poor. We are just on the poverty line. Even though we make so little, we save an incredible amount of money, and plan to use every penny to launch us out of poverty forever!
It doesn't bother me though. Most of my friends are poor, and we live in the poorest county in our state, so it's not anything people bat an eye at. We do visit the "rich" side of town occasionally where I've met a couple people with a "I'm better than you" attitude towards me. It makes me glad I live in the "poor" side of town where nobody judges.
The only thing that ever bothers me is when my friends invite me out to do expensive things. I really want to hang out with them, but I wouldn't spend that kind of money even if I had it.
-
I genuinely don't care what others think of my financial situation.
Why would I?
(And after typing that, I can't answer it; I can't think of a reason why I would, or should, care.)
-
Maybe the OP should look down on the social worker who visits because the social worker has to work? The OP has organised her affairs so that she only needs a low earned income, whereas all the people looking down on her are the suckers still slaving away at the 9 to 5 job....
-
My partner and I experienced a similar kind of 'Wealth-perception discrimination' when we were looking for our first house.
We both work in relatively well paid positions for our young ages and I'd managed to save a large chunk of my income for the past few years. Whenever we approached the estate agents, they took one look at us in our worn out clothes and immediately assumed we were looking to get onto the government support schemes for tiny apartments. Some even went as far as refusing to show us around places until we had met with their mortgage advisor to check the numbers and ensure we wernt 'over-stretching' ourselves.
Alot of the agents obviously assumed we were just time wasting as well and didnt bother to show us round anywhere. They opened the front door then stood outside playing on their phones.
I don't particularly care what people think of me, but it does annoy me when their perception has an impact on the service they offer.
-
I genuinely don't care what others think of my financial situation.
Why would I?
(And after typing that, I can't answer it; I can't think of a reason why I would, or should, care.)
Because some people will treat you differently based on what they think of your financial situation. For example, as you well know, in Vegas the trick is to look like you don't need it, then they give you the shit for free.
But maybe you don't even care how other people treat you?
-
I don't care what people think of me but agree sometimes the treatment can get annoying. I hated having to wear a suit for a couple years for work, but the treatment when out running errands after work was nice :-) Now I dress below average for the area we live (tshirt and jeans, most people look like they walked out of a display window), and we sometimes get shitty service at restaurants etc. We just don't go back there and find the places where they don't care, but it's still a crappy experience when it happens.
-
I genuinely don't care what others think of my financial situation.
Why would I?
(And after typing that, I can't answer it; I can't think of a reason why I would, or should, care.)
Because some people will treat you differently based on what they think of your financial situation. For example, as you well know, in Vegas the trick is to look like you don't need it, then they give you the shit for free.
But maybe you don't even care how other people treat you?
Hmm, that's interesting, I'll have to think about that.
I guess I haven't ever encountered negative treatment that has affected me, so it's not something I care about. Most of that treatment would only affect you by making you feel bad, but if you don't care, it can't even do that.
I suppose there are times though that it could manifest as an actual disparity that results in real loss, but I can't think of a time that it's personally happened.
And thus I'd conclude that, even in the rare case that it did, it's still better not to care, because otherwise you're caring in the vast majority of the cases where it doesn't matter, and only hurting yourself.
-
I genuinely don't care what others think of my financial situation.
Why would I?
(And after typing that, I can't answer it; I can't think of a reason why I would, or should, care.)
Because some people will treat you differently based on what they think of your financial situation. For example, as you well know, in Vegas the trick is to look like you don't need it, then they give you the shit for free.
But maybe you don't even care how other people treat you?
Hmm, that's interesting, I'll have to think about that.
I guess I haven't ever encountered negative treatment that has affected me, so it's not something I care about. Most of that treatment would only affect you by making you feel bad, but if you don't care, it can't even do that.
I suppose there are times though that it could manifest as an actual disparity that results in real loss, but I can't think of a time that it's personally happened.
And thus I'd conclude that, even in the rare case that it did, it's still better not to care, because otherwise you're caring in the vast majority of the cases where it doesn't matter, and only hurting yourself.
Well lets say you want a bank to loan you some money for a rental property. And they think you are in a bad financial situation, so they don't lend you the money. I have a feeling you go to some lengths to portray your financial situation as good when you apply for mortgages.
When it comes to expensive clothing... yeah I don't think the expense would be worth potential enhanced treatment. But it's a plausible reason to care what other people think.
-
My dad (56, recently divorced) ran into a form of this recently. He was looking around at houses, and wanted his realtor to make an offer on a ~$45k house. She asked him how it would be financed, and he said "Cash offer." which she seemed OK with. The deal didn't go through, and he found another house he wanted to make an offer on, but significantly more expensive (listed at ~$150k). She got downright furious when he said that was a cash offer too. He decided to go with a different realtor.
I get that as a realtor you're looking at the commission, but do you really need to get visibly angry when a client is looking for something cheaper than they "can afford"?
-
I work in an field that pays well and my office is full of young professionals trying to prove they've made it: extensive wardrobes, new cars, cruise vacations, ordering lunch for delivery, the works.
It's a different level of snobbery that I encounter but I truly empathize with your situation.
The way I deal with it is through attention to detail. My shabby apartment - always spotless. My shabby furniture - never in disrepair, always neat. My hair and beard - DIY buzz cut but never shaggy. My car - hand-washed every weekend. My thrift store clothes - picked the best quality, never rumpled, never stained, always pressed.
It's these little things that really help me keep a positive attitude. I'm sure you do a lot of the same; give yourself credit before you let everyone else bring you down! :-)
-
OP you have two productive choices (the unproductive one being to get mad and do nothing):
- Change how you feel about the treatment
- Educate these individuals such that they change how they treat you
If opting for two:
- Store clerks: I would write a letter to the manager, requesting a meeting regarding their customer service. I would be upfront (to make them feel bad) and say that as a customer, you expect to be treated the same regardless of payment method and you are disappointed that has not been the case here. I would say that you adopted a foster child with special needs who is entitled to certain benefits based on this status, including EBT. Explain that on multiple occasions store clerks have negatively commented on the items you are purchasing, which you feel is entitely inappropriate if you are buying items legally permitted by the program. Request that additional customer service training is provided to all employeees. Reiterate you would like an in-person meeting with the store manager to discuss this issue and offer a few times. And then after your meeting, the next time it happens, immediately request to speak with their supervisor, and even if you feel like a heel with everyone waiting (they can listen and learn too or go to a different line), make a point of reiterating your complaint right then and there.
- School: I would similarly write a letter to the principal. I would first ask them if they believe in treating all children equally (negotiating tactic to ask a question which they are bound to agree with you on). I would then request a meeting to discuss your concerns regarding the discriminatory treatment you have received, based on your perceived income and ability to pay for services. I would state that you appreciate their terrific response to your daughter's disability, but then continue to say that you are disappointed that their other policies do not match their non-discrimination policy (which I am assuming they have). Say that their policy on home visits should be blind income, perhaps adding that is because a child can be abused in high income family as well as a low income family (and often is more likely to be ignored or glossed over in those instances). Add that even if they believe that this discrimination is acceptable and a wealthier family should not be monitored as closely, that their policy does not take into consideration other forms of income, such as rental properties or other forms of passive income which you yourself support yourself through. Conclude by saying that while you recognize that your situation is perhaps unusual, having adopted a foster child with special needs who is entitled to certain benefits (such as the program that pays for the school), you still believe that all children, regardless of their background, should be treated equally and you are concerned that the schools seems to have adopted policies that contradict this. Conclude by requesting a review of their policies - and that meeting. And then meet with them and make them defend discriminatory policies directly to you (where you again remind them she is a foster child with special needs. Lay it on heavy if need be "I could have had my own child, but I felt that it was important to take in a child who needed me, and who needs a parent more than a foster child with special needs? While I did not expect parenting her to be easy, I never dreamed the hardest part would be fighting for her to be treated equally as a child without these challenges. I hope you will work with me to eliminate these obstacles and differential treatment."
-
I genuinely don't care what others think of my financial situation.
Why would I?
(And after typing that, I can't answer it; I can't think of a reason why I would, or should, care.)
Because some people will treat you differently based on what they think of your financial situation. For example, as you well know, in Vegas the trick is to look like you don't need it, then they give you the shit for free.
But maybe you don't even care how other people treat you?
Hmm, that's interesting, I'll have to think about that.
I guess I haven't ever encountered negative treatment that has affected me, so it's not something I care about. Most of that treatment would only affect you by making you feel bad, but if you don't care, it can't even do that.
I suppose there are times though that it could manifest as an actual disparity that results in real loss, but I can't think of a time that it's personally happened.
And thus I'd conclude that, even in the rare case that it did, it's still better not to care, because otherwise you're caring in the vast majority of the cases where it doesn't matter, and only hurting yourself.
Well lets say you want a bank to loan you some money for a rental property. And they think you are in a bad financial situation, so they don't lend you the money. I have a feeling you go to some lengths to portray your financial situation as good when you apply for mortgages.
When it comes to expensive clothing... yeah I don't think the expense would be worth potential enhanced treatment. But it's a plausible reason to care what other people think.
I don't think that's a good example, as I just submit my financial documents and they see if it meets their criteria. They're not looking at what car I drive or how I dress and thinking I'm poor. That's the case that the OP is talking about.
I can look good on paper, but we're talking about others perceptions of you based on your lifestyle, rather than your portfolio.
-
I genuinely don't care what others think of my financial situation.
Why would I?
(And after typing that, I can't answer it; I can't think of a reason why I would, or should, care.)
Because some people will treat you differently based on what they think of your financial situation. For example, as you well know, in Vegas the trick is to look like you don't need it, then they give you the shit for free.
But maybe you don't even care how other people treat you?
Hmm, that's interesting, I'll have to think about that.
I guess I haven't ever encountered negative treatment that has affected me, so it's not something I care about. Most of that treatment would only affect you by making you feel bad, but if you don't care, it can't even do that.
I suppose there are times though that it could manifest as an actual disparity that results in real loss, but I can't think of a time that it's personally happened.
And thus I'd conclude that, even in the rare case that it did, it's still better not to care, because otherwise you're caring in the vast majority of the cases where it doesn't matter, and only hurting yourself.
Well lets say you want a bank to loan you some money for a rental property. And they think you are in a bad financial situation, so they don't lend you the money. I have a feeling you go to some lengths to portray your financial situation as good when you apply for mortgages.
Any bank or mortgage broker worth their salt should base these decisions entirely on the actual data of your financial situation (your account balances, financial history, etc.) and not your appearance. I don't think bankers are even allowed to turn you away based on how you look without checking your financial history. If they are doing this at your financial institution, find another immediately.
-
I genuinely don't care what others think of my financial situation.
Why would I?
(And after typing that, I can't answer it; I can't think of a reason why I would, or should, care.)
Because some people will treat you differently based on what they think of your financial situation. For example, as you well know, in Vegas the trick is to look like you don't need it, then they give you the shit for free.
But maybe you don't even care how other people treat you?
Hmm, that's interesting, I'll have to think about that.
I guess I haven't ever encountered negative treatment that has affected me, so it's not something I care about. Most of that treatment would only affect you by making you feel bad, but if you don't care, it can't even do that.
I suppose there are times though that it could manifest as an actual disparity that results in real loss, but I can't think of a time that it's personally happened.
And thus I'd conclude that, even in the rare case that it did, it's still better not to care, because otherwise you're caring in the vast majority of the cases where it doesn't matter, and only hurting yourself.
Well lets say you want a bank to loan you some money for a rental property. And they think you are in a bad financial situation, so they don't lend you the money. I have a feeling you go to some lengths to portray your financial situation as good when you apply for mortgages.
When it comes to expensive clothing... yeah I don't think the expense would be worth potential enhanced treatment. But it's a plausible reason to care what other people think.
I don't think that's a good example, as I just submit my financial documents and they see if it meets their criteria. They're not looking at what car I drive or how I dress and thinking I'm poor. That's the case that the OP is talking about.
I can look good on paper, but we're talking about others perceptions of you based on your lifestyle, rather than your portfolio.
Well that's not what you said above. You might not care about looking good in real life, but if you care about looking good on paper, you still care what others think of your financial situation.
-
Well that's not what you said above. You might not care about looking good in real life, but if you care about looking good on paper, you still care what others think of your financial situation.
I'm not sure what you mean by care. It doesn't affect my behavior or mental state at all.
If a certain person or bank doesn't like my financial situation... oh well? I meet their qualifications or I don't. But what they think about that is irrelevant, and I don't care what they think about it.
And, like I said, I've never had negative treatment affect me.
-
Well that's not what you said above. You might not care about looking good in real life, but if you care about looking good on paper, you still care what others think of your financial situation.
I'm not sure what you mean by care. It doesn't affect my behavior or mental state at all.
If a certain person or bank doesn't like my financial situation... oh well? I meet their qualifications or I don't. But what they think about that is irrelevant, and I don't care what they think about it.
And, like I said, I've never had negative treatment affect me.
Yes, care as in affect mental state. For example, most people when turned down for a loan, because the loan officer thinks your financial situation is inadequate for the loan, would say "aw shucks, that's too bad." Or, when applying say "I hope I get this loan!" Also known as caring. Damn it, Mr. Spock, you are still half human and should understand this.
-
It would be good if I met their qualifications, and not as good if I didn't. But I don't see that as caring what they think about my situation. So an underwriter laughs and says "yeah right"... their thoughts on it doesn't matter to me.
I think I'm not expressing myself very well, but my point is that whatever some individual thinks of my situation doesn't affect my mental state.
-
The area I live in is considered a nicer part of town, so the fact that I use the bus and ride a bike makes me stand out in a land of H3-buying, latte-drinking yuppies. I'm sure they see me riding my bike and assume I just can't afford a car (even though I do own one).
I also live in an apartment, so that's another strike against me as far as these people are concerned. In fact, the nearby neighborhoods are quite vocal about their disdain for my apartment complex's existence. They say it brings their property values down and brings undesirable people into the area (read: anyone other than wealthy whites). I used to jog through the neighborhoods nearby and, as a white guy, no one gave me a second thought. Then I would jog with this black dude who lives in my complex and I immediately got these looks of shock. I guess the combination of rich and racist is a recipe for disaster.
Anyway, I stopped caring what people think of me a long time ago. I'll keep building the 'stache while they keep building their debt.
-
It would be good if I met their qualifications, and not as good if I didn't. But I don't see that as caring what they think about my situation. So an underwriter laughs and says "yeah right"... their thoughts on it doesn't matter to me.
I think I'm not expressing myself very well, but my point is that whatever some individual thinks of my situation doesn't affect my mental state.
I think you're basically saying their thoughts won't hurt your feelings.
-
Well lets say you want a bank to loan you some money for a rental property. And they think you are in a bad financial situation, so they don't lend you the money. I have a feeling you go to some lengths to portray your financial situation as good when you apply for mortgages.
When it comes to expensive clothing... yeah I don't think the expense would be worth potential enhanced treatment. But it's a plausible reason to care what other people think.
That's when I unzip and whip out my fat, um, balance sheet and statement of income. :) See how the bank perceives on that one.
I know I've had comments to the effect of "oh, wow, considering the sizable assets you have with us, we could certainly make an exception and give you X". More than once. Fidelity and my local credit union come to mind. And I don't even have a seven figure balance at either (it's spread around).
-
Many years ago my ex-hubby & I were buying a new car. A Small car that was not very expensive. He had researched what the dealer cost was for the options we wanted, etc. This was long before the internet age. He had a master's degree in math so obviously good with numbers. However, he worked as a tool & dye maker because he loved the work, the pay was great with lots of overtime but he got dirty at work. So we meet there so the dealership would not be closed & he is dressed in his work clothes (jeans/flannel shirt, etc). We tell the salesman we have to know how much above dealer cost they want for car & options & he will not give us an exact #. My hubby has clipboard & is ready to write down and we are planning to buy a car that day. WEll the salesman decides we can't afford the car so will not give us the exact price-just saying it is around this amount, etc. Finally we get pissed & leave. We go to different dealership & get treated well, agree on a fair price, buy a car & leave. The first dealership lost a sale because they judged my hubby based on his work clothes. We actually thought is was funny they lost the sale & told everyone we knew not to shop there.
-
Like many of you do...
I drive an old car, I live in a little house, I have old furniture, and most of my repairs are DIY. But I'm sick and tired of everyone (family, neighbors, friends) thinking that I'm financially struggling. I am not poor. I spent most of my childhood being truly poor (well, American poor), and I was so excited to no longer be sneered at by everyone. Nope. No such luck.
I adopted a wonderful child through the state foster care system (most frugal way btw, cost about $500) which means in my state she has state insurance, subsidized daycare, WIC, and b/c she's handicapped there are automatic state disability payments (which happen to come on an EBT card just like welfare payments). So I look poor.
I know this is shallow, and it shouldn't actually matter. But I'm tired of grocery store cashiers being rude, people commenting on what I buy with my "welfare". I want to brand my networth into my forehead. Last year at her (wealthy) preschool I had to go through four "homevisits" simply because my earned income was so low.
How do you deal with the lack of social status that being Mustachian seems to bring with it? I'm not talking about people not inviting you to join their country club. But the discrimination that people who are poor deal with every day in this country.
Social status? What? Why? Maybe I've got a genetic defect but I almost never consider social status in how I live my life.. and it's been that way since I was a teen. It's not something I consciously rebel against, just that it never even registers in the decisions I make.
I would actually feel "bad" buying something or doing something just to appear to fit in.
-
Are you a single parent by any chance? Because if you are you could very appear well off and STILL get extra scrutiny from daycare/schools. Many people have some strong biases.
-
I find that the older I get, the less I care about what other people think. Most people are idiots anyway, so aspiring to some level of their admiration and achieve 'social status' is an endeavour only worthy of another idiot.
Anyway, 'social status' is just another way to say "keeping up with the Jones' ", and why on earth would we want to do that? Let them toddle off down the well worn path with the rest of the "everything is a NEED" herd and live your life on your own terms.
-
Dressing in nice and even name brand clothes isn't all that expensive.
Its all about waiting for sales. I wear about 75% name brands but everything was bought at an extremely discounted price.
Retail prices make me cringe. I once paid full retail for 2 dress belts at $100 a piece before I knew better. I will never forget that.
Example of what I wore today:
johnston and murphey wing tip dress shoe. Zappos on sale for $100. Discover card used for my bills got me enough cashback to get 2 $50 gift cards = free
pants - levis 559. Kohls rewards card member + another coupon = $28
Express dress shirt - I pick these up on ebay for usually around $25
-
I 'don't care about what other people think' because I have a whole fuckton of middle-class mannerisms and markers and demographic privilege that more than make up for any impression that my clothes or spending habits might create which means people treat me pretty well most of the time.
Jeez louise, half the stuff I see on my computer is about how relationships and contact with real people are what bring meaning to life and the other half is autism-wannabe-ism 'let me loudly declare how I don't care about what people think of me so that everybody knows it.'
Our culture absolutely lauds mavericks and psychos in our stories and there's legitimately no cooler image I can think of in than the cool kid who doesn't care what anybody thinks. Just something to think about. Not that being popular makes something bad, but it can cause it to take up a larger space in our psyche and self-image than it would naturally.
(http://cdn.meme.li/instances/500x/53536887.jpg)
OP, you seem educated and articulate in your writing, do you think you come off that way in person? Do you think you come off as confident and happy? Because I have definitely seen people get treated badly simply because that's what they expect. How is your speech, eye contact, posture, etc.? I know it seems silly to talk about behavioral fixes when we're trying to avoid even the superficial ones like cars and clothing, but you might find it interesting to experiment.
-
Like many of you do...
I drive an old car, I live in a little house, I have old furniture, and most of my repairs are DIY. But I'm sick and tired of everyone (family, neighbors, friends) thinking that I'm financially struggling. I am not poor. I spent most of my childhood being truly poor (well, American poor), and I was so excited to no longer be sneered at by everyone. Nope. No such luck.
I adopted a wonderful child through the state foster care system (most frugal way btw, cost about $500) which means in my state she has state insurance, subsidized daycare, WIC, and b/c she's handicapped there are automatic state disability payments (which happen to come on an EBT card just like welfare payments). So I look poor.
I know this is shallow, and it shouldn't actually matter. But I'm tired of grocery store cashiers being rude, people commenting on what I buy with my "welfare". I want to brand my networth into my forehead. Last year at her (wealthy) preschool I had to go through four "homevisits" simply because my earned income was so low.
How do you deal with the lack of social status that being Mustachian seems to bring with it? I'm not talking about people not inviting you to join their country club. But the discrimination that people who are poor deal with every day in this country.
IIRC, you (OP) indicated that you do dress well...so not sure why so many responses are focused on dressing for less.
My interpretation of your post is that your concern is less along the lines of being bothered by trivial opinions of you and more by the continual environment of discrimination (eg, the home visits). Which, IMO, would wear on most and is very understandable.
As far as experience/advice, I don't think I look "poor" as much as "young." Combining this with being a woman, I don't think others automatically take me very seriously. I have a PhD in electrical engineering (that I earned 8 years ago), pretty serious work track record and credentials, and a fat net worth (relatively), but I'm a blonde woman and I think people see me and think "college student" more than adult.
For a while I thought that I could just find the right clothes and haircut and suddenly it would change, but this was no only ineffective, but I think put the focus too much on blaming myself. When the reality is that I think that the fact that women are often thought of as "young" is indicative of a general subconscious societal infantilization of women. Which, I don't think is unrelated to how others are responding to you.
So, I guess, while I do feel for your sitch, my only advice is along the advice that others have given of "fuck them." But don't put up with it. Talk to the head of the preschool ASAP regarding the in-homes being discriminatory. Tell people in the grocery store to mind their own business, shop elsewhere, etc. Dress however you like and are comfortable and don't go all "do I look poor in these pants," taking responsibility for others' miseducated opinions.
-
OP, you seem educated and articulate in your writing, do you think you come off that way in person? Do you think you come off as confident and happy? Because I have definitely seen people get treated badly simply because that's what they expect.
This.
The home visits due to low income I suppose I can almost see, but the rest may just boil down to attitude. I'm friends with a couple who truly are poor, and while they drive old cars, live in crappy a rental, shop at thrift stores and buy food with an EBT card, they don't "appear" poor due to their positive attitude.
Although I'm sure I've seen it, I've never noticed anyone buying with an EBT card, myself. Aren't they just swiped like a credit card?
-
Packaging sells and appearances are important to a point.
For example a good appearance will work in your favour, including better promotions (if you still work) and more social respect.
That said the cost of appearances are not necessarily huge.
The cost of clothing that fits is small assuming you dont need to buy a brand. Or alternatively buy a brand name that lasts a very long time and maintain it well.
The cost of refurbishing your furniture is also incremental and if you like DIY could be a skill that adds to your net worth via selling up-cycled pieces.
The cost of maintaining your house is expensive, but if done well will add to its value.
My assumption is you already know this: you worry about appearances so it is clear you also value them.
So then its up to you: is the value of your appearance worth the cost to maintain it?
-
I don't care if other people think I'm poor. I think my friends think my frugality is funny/quirky. HOWEVER, I'm sick of feeling poor myself! Just this evening, hubs and I were planning a weekend getaway, and when I saw hotel prices, I decided that it would be best to camp. Then I was shocked when the campsites I looked at were over $30/night! I said to him, "I wish we weren't poor!" and he said, "I wish we weren't poor either!" and then I had to reprimand both of us, because we are NOT poor, but we choose to spend wisely, and save wisely, which sometimes makes it feel like we can't afford more upscale things. Oh well, I'll be happy when I'm retired and all my friends who laugh at my frugality are still going to work every day!
-
Oh well, I'll be happy when I'm retired and all my friends who laugh at my frugality are still going to work every day!
You can pleasure today in knowing you are on the road to early retirement.
Story time. Technically, I don't HAVE to work. If I didn't, retirement would not be such a rosy prospect, would be defered, and belts would have to be cinched really really tightly in the meantime. I do work, though, and we are more mustachian with each passing month. I shop wisely, always look for fat to trim, and bring my own coffee and lunch to work everyday.
I have a coworker who is in his late fifties, earns less than $40K, is paying alimony, has a child in university, and buys his lunch every single day. He hates his job, but figures he is too old to work anywhere else, has extremely limited prospects of promotion, but is hanging on for a company pension, ungenerous as it is. The other day, he came in to my office for something at the end of the workday. He stretched and bragged about how much he was going to enjoy his next week's holiday (I am paid hourly - he is paid a salary. He has benefits such as vacation time and I don't. If I take time off, I don't get paid, so I do it rarely).
I looked up at him and said "You do realize that I don't have to work, don't you? If I quit right now I would still have a roof over my head and food on the table.". The glower that crossed his face was completely satisfying to see.
-
It would be good if I met their qualifications, and not as good if I didn't. But I don't see that as caring what they think about my situation. So an underwriter laughs and says "yeah right"... their thoughts on it doesn't matter to me.
I think I'm not expressing myself very well, but my point is that whatever some individual thinks of my situation doesn't affect my mental state.
I think you're basically saying their thoughts won't hurt your feelings.
Right. Why would they? OP seems to be saying the opposite.
Unless there's actual tangible harm, what does it matter what they're thinking of me or my asset/income level? And, like I said, I haven't experienced that tangible harm, even if I have experienced some disdain.
I 'don't care about what other people think' because I have a whole fuckton of middle-class mannerisms and markers and demographic privilege that more than make up for any impression that my clothes or spending habits might create which means people treat me pretty well most of the time.
Indeed, most of us here are ridiculously privileged, so why bother to care when the tiny percent of the time someone looks down on us? (Or even if it's larger because, for some reason, we know lots of judgy people.)
-
I guess I haven't ever encountered negative treatment that has affected me, so it's not something I care about. Most of that treatment would only affect you by making you feel bad, but if you don't care, it can't even do that.
I suppose there are times though that it could manifest as an actual disparity that results in real loss, but I can't think of a time that it's personally happened.
I've had this happen several times, where I've been treated differently, but perhaps you've never gone to the same places dressed differently in order to have it occur? I agree with you about not caring about what the people think, but I've definitely received better or worse treatment based on my appearance.
Example: I once went to a customer service center at a large retail outlet in shorts and a T-shirt, unshaved, and waited around several minutes for someone to assist. I finally flagged the person down, and they reluctantly helped. I went back at the exact same time the very next day, but this time after work and dressed in a suit, polished dress shoes, and shaved. This time I was immediately greeted by the very same customer service person, who swooped in to help. He did not even recognize me from the day before (he did not even remember the situation until I told them I was following up on the previous day's matter, and had to re-explain the situation). The attitude and the resulting service I got was the difference between night and day.
-
I encourage you to read Stoic Joy. MMM has a good review of the book and it directly addresses your concern. Focus on living the best, most enjoyable, life you can, while nurturing your child. Don't focus on the trivialities like a rude cashier.
-
Don't forget that looking poor can also be beneficial. My neighbors gave me a large number of garden tools and equipment for free, probably because they think I am poor. My garden cost almost nothing this year.
-
OP you have two productive choices (the unproductive one being to get mad and do nothing):
- Change how you feel about the treatment
- Educate these individuals such that they change how they treat you
If opting for two:
- Store clerks: I would write a letter to the manager, requesting a meeting regarding their customer service. I would be upfront (to make them feel bad) and say that as a customer, you expect to be treated the same regardless of payment method and you are disappointed that has not been the case here. I would say that you adopted a foster child with special needs who is entitled to certain benefits based on this status, including EBT. Explain that on multiple occasions store clerks have negatively commented on the items you are purchasing, which you feel is entitely inappropriate if you are buying items legally permitted by the program. Request that additional customer service training is provided to all employeees. Reiterate you would like an in-person meeting with the store manager to discuss this issue and offer a few times. And then after your meeting, the next time it happens, immediately request to speak with their supervisor, and even if you feel like a heel with everyone waiting (they can listen and learn too or go to a different line), make a point of reiterating your complaint right then and there.
- School: I would similarly write a letter to the principal. I would first ask them if they believe in treating all children equally (negotiating tactic to ask a question which they are bound to agree with you on). I would then request a meeting to discuss your concerns regarding the discriminatory treatment you have received, based on your perceived income and ability to pay for services. I would state that you appreciate their terrific response to your daughter's disability, but then continue to say that you are disappointed that their other policies do not match their non-discrimination policy (which I am assuming they have). Say that their policy on home visits should be blind income, perhaps adding that is because a child can be abused in high income family as well as a low income family (and often is more likely to be ignored or glossed over in those instances). Add that even if they believe that this discrimination is acceptable and a wealthier family should not be monitored as closely, that their policy does not take into consideration other forms of income, such as rental properties or other forms of passive income which you yourself support yourself through. Conclude by saying that while you recognize that your situation is perhaps unusual, having adopted a foster child with special needs who is entitled to certain benefits (such as the program that pays for the school), you still believe that all children, regardless of their background, should be treated equally and you are concerned that the schools seems to have adopted policies that contradict this. Conclude by requesting a review of their policies - and that meeting. And then meet with them and make them defend discriminatory policies directly to you (where you again remind them she is a foster child with special needs. Lay it on heavy if need be "I could have had my own child, but I felt that it was important to take in a child who needed me, and who needs a parent more than a foster child with special needs? While I did not expect parenting her to be easy, I never dreamed the hardest part would be fighting for her to be treated equally as a child without these challenges. I hope you will work with me to eliminate these obstacles and differential treatment."
This... With the addition that when the discrimination is irregular / unexpected (I.e cashiers) I would practice changing how I feel about the treatment (I get delayed outrage). Where the discrimination is systematic, like the school, I would follow commoncents advice - also requesting information on why you are continually targeted and how long will it carry on for.
-
I am not really all that concerned with my appearance, but I have figured out that you can put a small amount of effort to meet whatever base level is deemed acceptable socially. I wear nice new clothes to work but my polo's are off brands or off the 70% rack. I drive a nice car (acura) but it gets good gas mileage and is >10 yrs old. I live in a normal suburb community but chose to buy a foreclosure and fix it up, etc.
I realize that it is important to play the game somewhat, but you can do so without that much effort.
-
I agree with the letter writing to the owners/managers of businesses if you feel blatantly midtreeted. They really respond quickly if you post it on their stores social media. We just did that to a winery that treated us poorly, the owners met us and apologized the same day.
Being 25, and not a fancy dresser type I get treated like I have no money... Especially in Vancouver where 90% of wealth is property bought long ago or foreign.
I have owned my (now half million dollar) house for 5 years and when I host parties people I don't know too well ask where my parents are lol. Its good cuz door to door salesmen ask for my parents too.
-
Another Chime for CommonCents suggestions, especially regarding the school. They are being jackasses, and they need to be told this as eloquently as possible, probably in writing after some meetings. We had our children in a similar private preschool, but had to bail after just one year bc I just didn't like the people. I understand you are stuck there because of special circumstances, but tell them that! Christ they are acting like it is some big priveledge to go to that school and that those who are not worthy shall be barred from passage through the gates.
In terms of the cashiers and other people in line, I have a feeling you are being more sensitive to body language than actual comments. Is that correct? This is completely understandable as 90%+ of human communication is nonverbal. It would make it harder to write that letter that could rationally explain the situation to the manager. My approach would be to inform every cashier or other shopper who is giving me any negative expression all about my wonderful child, and what a blessing it is that the state can provide some funds for the disabled. I would only do this when the child was not with me, of course. (btw, my brother has 4 adopted special needs children; you are both saints.) Besides giving you something to do other than worry about what they think, it might make them think before they judge the next person who comes through the line with one of those cards. I realize this will get old after awhile, but I bet you'll get really good at perfecting what to say with practice!
-
In terms of the cashiers and other people in line, I have a feeling you are being more sensitive to body language than actual comments. Is that correct? This is completely understandable as 90%+ of human communication is nonverbal. It would make it harder to write that letter that could rationally explain the situation to the manager. My approach would be to inform every cashier or other shopper who is giving me any negative expression all about my wonderful child, and what a blessing it is that the state can provide some funds for the disabled. I would only do this when the child was not with me, of course. (btw, my brother has 4 adopted special needs children; you are both saints.) Besides giving you something to do other than worry about what they think, it might make them think before they judge the next person who comes through the line with one of those cards. I realize this will get old after awhile, but I bet you'll get really good at perfecting what to say with practice!
We were in a fancy dress store buying my prom dress and the snooty sales lady looked askance when grandmama asked the price. Grandmother looked her dead in the eyes and responded in her most condescending voice "I notice you're working for a living honey". Still love that almost 1/4 century later!
-
The best revenge is living well. Consider if you were a secret agent, spy whatever and you have this awesome job make a ton of dough and totally deadly with your bare hands, but you have to put on this show of being a florist, paper salesman, insurance agent whatever.
One day you get to check out, and they get to keep working, and judging their customers.
You can also pretty woman their asses! "Excuse me miss. You work on Commission, right? Big Mistake. Huge!"
But in all seriousness...it's amazing the trends at my work. let me tell you what is parked in our employee parking lot
$18-20 an hour employees drive:
2010 BMW
2008 Big Ford Truck
2013 Toyota Mini Van
2008 Honda Civic
2013 Chevy SUV of some kind
2011 4 Runner
1980s Suburban
2012 Audi Sedan
2012 Tahoe
2011 Kia SUV
and most of them show up every morning with a designer latte
the $40 an hour employees drive
2013 Subaru Forester
2010 Subaru Forester
2005 Toyota Camry
2009 4 Runner
The $120 an hour employees (doctors) drive
2012 Subaru Outback
2011 Ford Mustang
2009 Big ford truck
2010 Kia Sedan
And every single day during our lunch hour the lunch room is filled with just the $40-$120 an hour employees and maybe 1 or 2 of the $20 an hour employees. The rest of the lowest earners in the office go out to eat almost every day!
It's weird. It's like the lower the wage directly relates to how "flashy" the lifestyle looks (with some exceptions).
-
Well lets say you want a bank to loan you some money for a rental property. And they think you are in a bad financial situation, so they don't lend you the money.....
That's another mis-truth outright lie from the right wing echo chamber. Banks simply LOVE customers on the edge, the closer the bankruptcy the more your TBTF bank wants to lend you money and the more money you borrow the more they make. Of course if the whole mess goes bad than the taxpayer picks up the bill!
I highly suggust reading The Two Income trap, that book changed my whole thinking on PF
Rob
-
Being Portuguese and Engineers (read: jeans and gaming t-shirts) me and my wife went into a bank here in Switzerland to buy our first house, around 2005. We'd been banking there for a while but strictly retail, never had talked to our "advisor".
We go in, ask if he knows any English please, we're interested in a mortgage but don't speak German very well. unfortunately, he speaks very little, broken english, and looks apologetic. Bummer.
That is, until he goes out of the meeting room to fetch our asset statements. When he comes back, he speak fluent, barely accented English. Me and the missus still joke about it, how the express language courses at UBS must be *terrific*.
-
Many years ago my ex-hubby & I were buying a new car. A Small car that was not very expensive. He had researched what the dealer cost was for the options we wanted, etc. This was long before the internet age. He had a master's degree in math so obviously good with numbers. However, he worked as a tool & dye maker because he loved the work, the pay was great with lots of overtime but he got dirty at work. So we meet there so the dealership would not be closed & he is dressed in his work clothes (jeans/flannel shirt, etc). We tell the salesman we have to know how much above dealer cost they want for car & options & he will not give us an exact #. My hubby has clipboard & is ready to write down and we are planning to buy a car that day. WEll the salesman decides we can't afford the car so will not give us the exact price-just saying it is around this amount, etc. Finally we get pissed & leave. We go to different dealership & get treated well, agree on a fair price, buy a car & leave. The first dealership lost a sale because they judged my hubby based on his work clothes. We actually thought is was funny they lost the sale & told everyone we knew not to shop there.
Nearly the same thing happened to me.
After the second time they gave me some stupid monthly payment number, I asked the car salesman to let me show him how an amortization table worked. I pulled up Excel on his computer, put in some numbers, which happened to result in nearly exactly the monthly payment they were offering, and said "I know how to calculate a monthly payment, I want to know the price of the car, which is THIS number."
The poor salesman was really surprised but the next offer they gave me was an actual number.
Meh. I decided then to dress up somewhat for the next time I go buy a car.
-
Here's my story.. Several times in these numerous posts I refer to being derided by my family for being cheap.
Yes I have suffered this derision for years.. However when you finally do walk out the door at a young age and you just know people can't quite believe you can afford to do it.
Well.. Priceless..:)
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/share-your-badassity/i-retired-today!-)/
This comes closest to what I want to say.
For me, at least, being frugal, looking poorer than my SES and benefits previously was associated with shame. I felt ashamed I couldn't live to the standard that was expected of someone of my profession. (Hence as soon as my finances improved I escalated my spending).
The whole early retirement movement was incredibly liberating. There's no shame in voluntary simplicity, and indeed my FI plans are a bit of a delicious secret. Once I dissociated from shame in my mind, I have had no problem with "living beneath my station".
edit :corrected the auto correct
-
Two thoughts on the OP
1. the GOP base is mostly white poor mostly rural who spend all day in the right wing echo chamber, so when the OP presents her "food stamps" debit card (that it isn't doesn't matter) the voice of Rush the Mouth Limbaugh pops up and reminders them that this "loser" is sponging off her hard earned tax dollars. thus earning his derision. It is probably useless to argue any different.
2. Please don't be offended by this but my guess is the OP is a very frumpy dresser. I found this comments in the other thread.
"clothes that generally give off a thrift store vibe"
"we were sitting there in the same dirty camping clothes we had worn for days"
"I carry the same work bag with frayed handles for years on end"
To be honest I simply don't understand how people can take pride in looking dumpy and out of style. My working class sister in law, husband barely earns enough to pay the bills is great example of cheap chic. On a recent trip to Finland (for a family wedding) she absolutely blew me away, in 8 days she never wore the same outfit twice and always looked like a million bucks!
All her clothes from Value Village, the only difference from anyone else shopping there is she took great pride in looking good.
One doesn't need to spend much, or anything at all to look classy!
-
We had the poor look yesterday while shopping for a mattress. I pulled up to the completely empty parking lot at the mattress store in my 14 year old honda civic that needs a paint job or at least a thorough washing. The sole saleslady saw me get out of the car in cargo shorts, ruffled collar shirt and sandals. We were shown the lower end mattresses immediately and didn't have to deal with any sales pitches for why $4000 mattresses are superior to $800 mattresses.
-
We had the poor look yesterday while shopping for a mattress. I pulled up to the completely empty parking lot at the mattress store in my 14 year old honda civic that needs a paint job or at least a thorough washing. The sole saleslady saw me get out of the car in cargo shorts, ruffled collar shirt and sandals. We were shown the lower end mattresses immediately and didn't have to deal with any sales pitches for why $4000 mattresses are superior to $800 mattresses.
Well played sir.
-
i've had several irritating experiences with looking 'poor'. once when shopping for an evening dress in a shop which considers itself posh (but is mainly just overpriced) the sales assistant actually wouldn't let me try on more dresses (i'd try on 2 or 3) because she said i was just 'playing dress up'. their loss. have never considered buying from them again.
another time i was looking for a ring for a big birthday (present from grandparents) and wandered into a jewellery shop to ask what they had. the assistant promptly escorted me outside telling me the kind of thing i wanted was in the window (the cheaper stuff was in the window).
both times i was wearing clean, neat jeans and a top. nothing dirty or inappropriate, just not smart or girly.
-
I don't know if its me or if this is a common thing. We were not born and raised in the US, moved here 15 years ago.
But I always get the " These people are cheap" vibe from sales people.
Yesterday we were in target an item was an onesale, when the cashier rang it up it showed full price.
I said it was on sale for almost half the price .Nothing was said but the look on her face said it all.
I declined to buy it and walked out the door.
-
I don't know if its me or if this is a common thing. We were not born and raised in the US, moved here 15 years ago.
But I always get the " These people are cheap" vibe from sales people.
Yesterday we were in target an item was an onesale, when the cashier rang it up it showed full price.
I said it was on sale for almost half the price .Nothing was said but the look on her face said it all.
I declined to buy it and walked out the door.
I, too, am born outside the US and I do that all the time.. not because I can't afford thd higher price but I'm disgusted by the dishonesty in pricing.
-
I don't know if its me or if this is a common thing. We were not born and raised in the US, moved here 15 years ago.
But I always get the " These people are cheap" vibe from sales people.
Yesterday we were in target an item was an onesale, when the cashier rang it up it showed full price.
I said it was on sale for almost half the price .Nothing was said but the look on her face said it all.
I declined to buy it and walked out the door.
I, too, am born outside the US and I do that all the time.. not because I can't afford thd higher price but I'm disgusted by the dishonesty in pricing.
There's a lot of moving parts that need to happpen to get pricing right in the computers. I doubt it was dishonesty, and believe it was likely an error. Luckily, there are many consumer protections which help in situations like this to ensure you get the lowest price (plus in some cases 10% of the difference - varies based on state/product/store policies). You just need to have the time and desire to speak up for it. More people should. I do. Growing a thick skin as you wait for them to do a price check or double check your coupon etc. is quite beneficial for your stash.
-
But in all seriousness...it's amazing the trends at my work. let me tell you what is parked in our employee parking lot
$18-20 an hour employees drive:
2010 BMW
2008 Big Ford Truck
2013 Toyota Mini Van
2008 Honda Civic
2013 Chevy SUV of some kind
2011 4 Runner
1980s Suburban
...
Missj - How is it you know the exact year of almost every vehicle? You may be guessing. But if not, I am very impressed ;)
-
I live in a part of the country where the richest men in the county wear well worn overalls, drive beat up 20 year old pick up trucks and have dirt on their boots.
By contrast, I generally assume that people who live in uber fancy houses, drive 75K cars and golf too much are up to their eyeballs in debt.
One easy solution for your perception dilemma is to shop at upscale thrift stores as I do for my office clothes. I can buy an entire outfit (shirt, pants, shoes) for under 10 bucks. They often are unworn and designer labels.
Regarding the car -- I just recently passed along my Toyota Camry, 01, 375K miles and beat to shit. I feel so much better driving the gas guzzling 99 Mountaineer, 265K in decent shape.
Your health is weirdly influenced by the car you drive. (google it) The look of your car effects testosterone and hormone levels.
So IMO, get yourself $200 and splurge at the thrift store on some nice clothes. If your car is ratty, sell or trade it for a less ratty cheap car or go for the deal mentioned on the forums regarding the Nissan Leaf.
If you have energy get yourself a dealers license. You can then buy cars wholesale at auction and sell them. So that you are always driving a nice car and making a profit while having fun.
Regarding your house. If you live in an inexpensive neighborhood, IMO, you should make every effort to have the nicest most cared for house on the block. (really any neighborhood for that matter) Make your curb appeal awesome. Manicure your lawn to perfection (not expensive and a great hobby). Same with the interior.
I think the appeal thing about some of Mustachian thinking is to live a bountiful life at a much lower cost than everyone else. MMM lives in a presentable nice house and I assure you his wife dresses nicely. He dresses ratty as he is a carpenter by trade.
No one ever said this is a vow of poverty. On the contrary, it is a vow of thoughtful abundance.
But if you like (and I think you secretly may) dressing poor while thinking about your net worth, as if you are putting something over on someone. Then you go for it!
I often enjoy that game myself. Especially with my wife's relatives who drive fancy cars, eat out often and are up to their eyeballs in debt! lol
-
Your health is weirdly influenced by the car you drive. (google it) The look of your car effects testosterone and hormone levels.
I really like the rest of your post, but this part is very intriguing (Google didn't help me, unfortunately). I drive a '99 manual-everything 156k-mile Metro with no clearcoat left on the hood (the rest is still shiny but denty), are you saying my testosterone could be EVEN HIGHER if I had a fancier car?
However, I've noticed that whenever I drive my GF's sister's zero-visibility, uncomfortable, not-for-people-above-5'8", CVT shiny white Prius C I feel like a giant wimp.
(I joke, but I'm legitimately curious about what you said.)
-
But if you like (and I think you secretly may) dressing poor while thinking about your net worth, as if you are putting something over on someone. Then you go for it!
I shall admit to enjoying this sometimes myself. I almost get caught occasionally though when in a group of friends all moaning about the high costs of petrol (gas) or insane house prices turn to me and ask my views on it... assuming i'd be financially struggling with such things as well.
-
I don't know if its me or if this is a common thing. We were not born and raised in the US, moved here 15 years ago.
But I always get the " These people are cheap" vibe from sales people.
Yesterday we were in target an item was an onesale, when the cashier rang it up it showed full price.
I said it was on sale for almost half the price .Nothing was said but the look on her face said it all.
I declined to buy it and walked out the door.
I, too, am born outside the US and I do that all the time.. not because I can't afford thd higher price but I'm disgusted by the dishonesty in pricing.
There's a lot of moving parts that need to happpen to get pricing right in the computers. I doubt it was dishonesty, and believe it was likely an error. Luckily, there are many consumer protections which help in situations like this to ensure you get the lowest price (plus in some cases 10% of the difference - varies based on state/product/store policies). You just need to have the time and desire to speak up for it. More people should. I do. Growing a thick skin as you wait for them to do a price check or double check your coupon etc. is quite beneficial for your stash.
Most of the time, walking away because of a misprint prompts the sales staff to recheck the price and I'll usually stay..
-
1. the GOP base is mostly white poor mostly rural who spend all day in the right wing echo chamber, so when the OP presents her "food stamps" debit card (that it isn't doesn't matter) the voice of Rush the Mouth Limbaugh pops up and reminders them that this "loser" is sponging off her hard earned tax dollars. thus earning his derision. It is probably useless to argue any different.
Yeah, it's crazy annoying how these people use partisan politics as their filter to explain and understand the world.
Kind of like how you just did.
-
I don't know if its me or if this is a common thing. We were not born and raised in the US, moved here 15 years ago.
But I always get the " These people are cheap" vibe from sales people.
Yesterday we were in target an item was an onesale, when the cashier rang it up it showed full price.
I said it was on sale for almost half the price .Nothing was said but the look on her face said it all.
I declined to buy it and walked out the door.
I, too, am born outside the US and I do that all the time.. not because I can't afford thd higher price but I'm disgusted by the dishonesty in pricing.
There's a lot of moving parts that need to happpen to get pricing right in the computers. I doubt it was dishonesty, and believe it was likely an error. Luckily, there are many consumer protections which help in situations like this to ensure you get the lowest price (plus in some cases 10% of the difference - varies based on state/product/store policies). You just need to have the time and desire to speak up for it. More people should. I do. Growing a thick skin as you wait for them to do a price check or double check your coupon etc. is quite beneficial for your stash.
Most of the time, walking away because of a misprint prompts the sales staff to recheck the price and I'll usually stay..
I've been a cashier for several years in the past. Yes, the face is usually of disgust if the difference is above a certain amount. Its not because of how you look but the extra work involved. If its something they need to check or get managers approval its a pain to confirm the price. I usually assume the customer is right but finding an extra employee to go verify or get mangers approval can take awhile, make all the customers behind you annoyed, and in general is a pain. So the look of disgust is usually more of a "ugh why can't this be simpler".
-
But in all seriousness...it's amazing the trends at my work. let me tell you what is parked in our employee parking lot
$18-20 an hour employees drive:
2010 BMW
2008 Big Ford Truck
2013 Toyota Mini Van
2008 Honda Civic
2013 Chevy SUV of some kind
2011 4 Runner
1980s Suburban
...
Missj - How is it you know the exact year of almost every vehicle? You may be guessing. But if not, I am very impressed ;)
I'm guessing except for the newest ones where they bragged about buying it. I've worked here years and there are only about 20 of us, so it's pretty easy to tell when somebody gets a new car.
-
I don't know if its me or if this is a common thing. We were not born and raised in the US, moved here 15 years ago.
But I always get the " These people are cheap" vibe from sales people.
Yesterday we were in target an item was an onesale, when the cashier rang it up it showed full price.
I said it was on sale for almost half the price .Nothing was said but the look on her face said it all.
I declined to buy it and walked out the door.
I, too, am born outside the US and I do that all the time.. not because I can't afford thd higher price but I'm disgusted by the dishonesty in pricing.
There's a lot of moving parts that need to happpen to get pricing right in the computers. I doubt it was dishonesty, and believe it was likely an error. Luckily, there are many consumer protections which help in situations like this to ensure you get the lowest price (plus in some cases 10% of the difference - varies based on state/product/store policies). You just need to have the time and desire to speak up for it. More people should. I do. Growing a thick skin as you wait for them to do a price check or double check your coupon etc. is quite beneficial for your stash.
Most of the time, walking away because of a misprint prompts the sales staff to recheck the price and I'll usually stay..
I've been a cashier for several years in the past. Yes, the face is usually of disgust if the difference is above a certain amount. Its not because of how you look but the extra work involved. If its something they need to check or get managers approval its a pain to confirm the price. I usually assume the customer is right but finding an extra employee to go verify or get mangers approval can take awhile, make all the customers behind you annoyed, and in general is a pain. So the look of disgust is usually more of a "ugh why can't this be simpler".
Thanks for the clarification.
Just to clarify the sale was on thier weekly circular and I even showed her that. Still ended up getting an attitude and I walked out. We were with our 4 year old and that was one of the reasons why I just walked out. Other wise I would have made it a point to give her a piece of my mind. I have done it in the past. Again we are not asking for handouts we are trying to save money.
-
But in all seriousness...it's amazing the trends at my work. let me tell you what is parked in our employee parking lot
...
Missj - How is it you know the exact year of almost every vehicle? You may be guessing. But if not, I am very impressed ;)
I'm guessing except for the newest ones where they bragged about buying it. I've worked here years and there are only about 20 of us, so it's pretty easy to tell when somebody gets a new car.
I had to look up most of those vehicles you mention, to see their prices - having no idea what most of them look like or cost. This makes me very glad I don't work in an office - no pressure to buy an expensive car.
It looks like the lower-salaried people also buy vehicles more frequently. How often would you guess they buy? Do they even wait to pay off the previous car?
-
Thought the OP would enjoy this article.
http://www.theonion.com/articles/woman-a-leading-authority-on-what-shouldnt-be-in-p,35922/
strength to you.
-pmg
-
I had to look up most of those vehicles you mention, to see their prices - having no idea what most of them look like or cost. This makes me very glad I don't work in an office - no pressure to buy an expensive car.
It looks like the lower-salaried people also buy vehicles more frequently. How often would you guess they buy? Do they even wait to pay off the previous car?
I think the lower salaried people ALWAYS have a financed car payment. so when they pay one off, that means it's time to buy a new one. I know at least 2 of them have taken loans against their vanguard account for "emergencies" which includes such things as getting a new roof, fridge died and had to buy a new (expensive) stainless steel fridge, car repairs, unexpected tax bills etc.
The doctors probably just pay cash with their annual bonus cuz they make a fat bonus....they could probably buy 2 nice cars with their bonus.
-
But in all seriousness...it's amazing the trends at my work. let me tell you what is parked in our employee parking lot
...
Missj - How is it you know the exact year of almost every vehicle? You may be guessing. But if not, I am very impressed ;)
I'm guessing except for the newest ones where they bragged about buying it. I've worked here years and there are only about 20 of us, so it's pretty easy to tell when somebody gets a new car.
I had to look up most of those vehicles you mention, to see their prices - having no idea what most of them look like or cost. This makes me very glad I don't work in an office - no pressure to buy an expensive car.
It looks like the lower-salaried people also buy vehicles more frequently. How often would you guess they buy? Do they even wait to pay off the previous car?
I work in an office and drive a 1999 Honda Civic.. I see a few cars that are clearly older than mine but the vast majority are newer, even the janitor's.
-
Your health is weirdly influenced by the car you drive. (google it) The look of your car effects testosterone and hormone levels.
I really like the rest of your post, but this part is very intriguing (Google didn't help me, unfortunately). I drive a '99 manual-everything 156k-mile Metro with no clearcoat left on the hood (the rest is still shiny but denty), are you saying my testosterone could be EVEN HIGHER if I had a fancier car?
However, I've noticed that whenever I drive my GF's sister's zero-visibility, uncomfortable, not-for-people-above-5'8", CVT shiny white Prius C I feel like a giant wimp.
(I joke, but I'm legitimately curious about what you said.)
Here is one quick link, but there seems to many links if you Google "testosterone levels cars" - http://www.formulaoz.com/red-fast-increases-testosterone-levels/
I'm sure the whole testosterone level, ego, emotional wellness thing plays into many things and purchases in life. And a person can actually fall in love with an object such as a car via hormonal responses.
It is probably the reason we like to buy nice houses in nice neighborhoods. I know each time I arrive home I get a little buzz when I see my fancy pants house. (paid 1/3 the value for it)
Since this thread is about looking poor -- my hypothesis is that it is better for mental and physical health to not look poor. Even when I put on my $2 thrift shop designer shirt I can feel a psychic bump.
It has been known for centuries that uniforms are very influential on a persons attitudes and feelings. In fact, kids who wear uniforms to school perform better.
Can you imagine a Judge dressing in Bermuda shorts and a tank top with long hair and a beard? There is a reason for that. (or better yet a female judge in short shorts and a tube top. lol)
Yes, I enjoy dressing poor sometimes and bragging about the shoes I found that someone left behind at the campground, but the reality is we all like to do some dressing up. I think this is perfectly fine for us folks here in the mustache world.
You might even reverse the game --- See if you can dress better than 95% of the people but only pay 10% as much for the clothes. See if you can drive a car that is in the top 5% but you bought it at auction and will sell it for a profit. See if you can have the prettiest home in the neighborhood, but have paid well below the average.
Why deprive yourself of nice clothes, nice cars and nice homes?
Living well is not a crime, paying for it on credit is a misdemeanor though! lol
(and by the way, I'm sure that people who drive Priuses have below average testosterone levels. lol)
-
Your health is weirdly influenced by the car you drive. (google it) The look of your car effects testosterone and hormone levels.
I really like the rest of your post, but this part is very intriguing (Google didn't help me, unfortunately). I drive a '99 manual-everything 156k-mile Metro with no clearcoat left on the hood (the rest is still shiny but denty), are you saying my testosterone could be EVEN HIGHER if I had a fancier car?
However, I've noticed that whenever I drive my GF's sister's zero-visibility, uncomfortable, not-for-people-above-5'8", CVT shiny white Prius C I feel like a giant wimp.
(I joke, but I'm legitimately curious about what you said.)
Here is one quick link, but there seems to many links if you Google "testosterone levels cars" - http://www.formulaoz.com/red-fast-increases-testosterone-levels/
I'm sure the whole testosterone level, ego, emotional wellness thing plays into many things and purchases in life. And a person can actually fall in love with an object such as a car via hormonal responses.
It is probably the reason we like to buy nice houses in nice neighborhoods. I know each time I arrive home I get a little buzz when I see my fancy pants house. (paid 1/3 the value for it)
Since this thread is about looking poor -- my hypothesis is that it is better for mental and physical health to not look poor. Even when I put on my $2 thrift shop designer shirt I can feel a psychic bump.
It has been known for centuries that uniforms are very influential on a persons attitudes and feelings. In fact, kids who wear uniforms to school perform better.
Can you imagine a Judge dressing in Bermuda shorts and a tank top with long hair and a beard? There is a reason for that. (or better yet a female judge in short shorts and a tube top. lol)
Yes, I enjoy dressing poor sometimes and bragging about the shoes I found that someone left behind at the campground, but the reality is we all like to do some dressing up. I think this is perfectly fine for us folks here in the mustache world.
You might even reverse the game --- See if you can dress better than 95% of the people but only pay 10% as much for the clothes. See if you can drive a car that is in the top 5% but you bought it at auction and will sell it for a profit. See if you can have the prettiest home in the neighborhood, but have paid well below the average.
Why deprive yourself of nice clothes, nice cars and nice homes?
Living well is not a crime, paying for it on credit is a misdemeanor though! lol
(and by the way, I'm sure that people who drive Priuses have below average testosterone levels. lol)
Fat bank account is the ultimate testosterone boost
-
Since this thread is about looking poor -- my hypothesis is that it is better for mental and physical health to not look poor. Even when I put on my $2 thrift shop designer shirt I can feel a psychic bump.
Your physical health? Like wearing J Crew can stop you from getting sick? Oh Bob, you're so funny!
Can you imagine a Judge dressing in Bermuda shorts and a tank top with long hair and a beard? There is a reason for that. (or better yet a female judge in short shorts and a tube top. lol)
On their day off? At the store? Sure, why not?
Yes, I enjoy dressing poor sometimes and bragging about the shoes I found that someone left behind at the campground, but the reality is we all like to do some dressing up. I think this is perfectly fine for us folks here in the mustache world.
Have to disagree here. I would be perfectly happy wearing nothing other than a t-shirt and shorts, forever. Dressing up doesn't appeal to me at all.
Why deprive yourself of nice clothes, nice cars and nice homes?
Living well is not a crime, paying for it on credit is a misdemeanor though! lol
??? Don't deprive yourself of nice cars and homes? Are you sure you're on the right site? The real deprivation is paying a lot of extra money for the "status" of driving a nice car or living in an expensive home when cheaper options work just fine. If the choice is depriving myself FIRE for a year or a nice car, well, that choice is pretty obvious.
-
I think the most important is to get a house that is nice to you. After living in a cute but in disrepair rental house 900? square feet with no insulation (and other rental situations previous to that), moving to our close to 1500 square foot bungalow felt like the Taj Mahal. My husband put a collage art that is next to our door "the Palace", because this is our palace, even though it is significantly smaller and older than most of the other houses nearby. I totally agree with the person who said, no matter what your means, to have a clean and orderly house, clean and neat clothes, really doesn't take much effort but shows self-respect and pride. Our dog may be a mutt but our daughter does a great job brushing his hair out : )
-
It has been known for centuries that uniforms are very influential on a persons attitudes and feelings. In fact, kids who wear uniforms to school perform better.
But one theory about why this might is that the kid's don't have to waste as much energy thinking about clothes.
-
Since this thread is about looking poor -- my hypothesis is that it is better for mental and physical health to not look poor. Even when I put on my $2 thrift shop designer shirt I can feel a psychic bump.
Your physical health? Like wearing J Crew can stop you from getting sick? Oh Bob, you're so funny!
Can you imagine a Judge dressing in Bermuda shorts and a tank top with long hair and a beard? There is a reason for that. (or better yet a female judge in short shorts and a tube top. lol)
On their day off? At the store? Sure, why not?
Yes, I enjoy dressing poor sometimes and bragging about the shoes I found that someone left behind at the campground, but the reality is we all like to do some dressing up. I think this is perfectly fine for us folks here in the mustache world.
Have to disagree here. I would be perfectly happy wearing nothing other than a t-shirt and shorts, forever. Dressing up doesn't appeal to me at all.
Why deprive yourself of nice clothes, nice cars and nice homes?
Living well is not a crime, paying for it on credit is a misdemeanor though! lol
??? Don't deprive yourself of nice cars and homes? Are you sure you're on the right site? The real deprivation is paying a lot of extra money for the "status" of driving a nice car or living in an expensive home when cheaper options work just fine. If the choice is depriving myself FIRE for a year or a nice car, well, that choice is pretty obvious.
Oh I totally agree with the money saving aspect of the thing. But there is a third road. One that MMM has traveled many times.
On that road you can have the nice clothes - (thrift shop bargains)
The very nice home - (I bought mine for 1/3 the value and put a lot of labor and love into restoring it)
And many very nice cars - (I have friends and family members who buy cars at auction and drive them before reselling them for a profit. They are always driving cool, nice cars and their annual cost is less than zero. It is a fun hobby for them and one that anyone who is FI or contemplating FI might consider)
My son just bought a F150 extended cab with a salvage title and 50K miles. His cost for the car and bodywork amounted to 9K. He will drive it until he is bored for a year or so and the sell it quick for 15K. His total time in locating the deal, internet resourcing the parts, contracting with his body work guy and miscellaneous is probably less than 40 hours. He essentially is driving for free. That means his budget categories of gas, insurance, truck are all negated out by his profit.
So MMM is always talking about DYI and how important it is to learn a skill. Well I think this car trading skill is easy to learn and will benefit you way more than fixing your own leaky pipe will.
So lets say you learn how to buy and sell cars with little effort and little money for a nice profit. And then lets say that every 2 or 3 years you find yourself a house that you can live in while you repair it (we stayed in a borrowed RV for the first 3 months on ours).
You have virtually killed the two of the biggest budget categories people have. I call that smart. I also see that as a way to vastly accelerate your speed to FI.
I can also say that when I show people my house and tell them what I have into it that my pride/health/testosterone swells. Same feeling my son has when he pulls in my drive with one of his new deals. He is smiling wide.
So bottom line is that "yes" you really can have the killer house and lots of super cars and nice clothes and if you do it smart, you make money on the whole deal with just a little effort.
-
Don't let the consumers get you down, you're doing a great thing!
-
...
Living well is not a crime, paying for it on credit is a misdemeanor though! lol
haha, yes, and your points about how to have
"nice" things at low cost is very good.
Sadly, people are becoming less and less able to do things, to fix things, to build things. Sweat equity has been a time honored way to build wealth.
Cool that you son fixes up an old truck, the old truck trend is so interesting to me. I see a fair number of them here in St. Louis. I couldn't have predicted that trend.
-
1. the GOP base is mostly white poor mostly rural who spend all day in the right wing echo chamber, so when the OP presents her "food stamps" debit card (that it isn't doesn't matter) the voice of Rush the Mouth Limbaugh pops up and reminders them that this "loser" is sponging off her hard earned tax dollars. thus earning his derision. It is probably useless to argue any different.
I find this incredibly biased and condescending.
-
1. the GOP base is mostly white poor mostly rural who spend all day in the right wing echo chamber, so when the OP presents her "food stamps" debit card (that it isn't doesn't matter) the voice of Rush the Mouth Limbaugh pops up and reminders them that this "loser" is sponging off her hard earned tax dollars. thus earning his derision. It is probably useless to argue any different.
I find this incredibly biased and condescending.
And wrong.
-
You might even reverse the game --- See if you can dress better than 95% of the people but only pay 10% as much for the clothes. See if you can drive a car that is in the top 5% but you bought it at auction and will sell it for a profit. See if you can have the prettiest home in the neighborhood, but have paid well below the average.
I do this too. In my experience, people do judge you on the way on you appear. So my strategy is to figure out the status markers that people recognise and value, and then acquire them as cheaply as possible.
-
For some reason the forum is super slow to load, so can't quote.
I don't know where you all shop but not a high class dresser, jeans and a T-shirt is all I need, Wife is similar, but never run into a problem like this! As mentioned before it doesn't cost much to look classy.
Off topic: the comment about the right wing echo chamber is 100% correct! Day in and day out right wing blogs radio and TV (and now Facebook) remind us about how lazy the unemployed and working poor are. Remember Regan's welfare queen or the guy featured on Fox who was in a band and used food stamps to eat. Why do you think the OP complained about the cashier sneering at her she pulled out her "food stamps" card. It's because that's all she hears or reads about.
OK slight edit: maybe not daily, as long as their is a black democrat president they will spend most of their time complaining about how he's ruining the country (note the issue is bit less about race than the fact the President is Democratic), should by chance a Republican gain the presidency all will be forgiven and we go back to bashing the poor.
I could be wrong on this but I don't think I am. The GOP/Tea Party base is white and rural and almost to a T willing to vote against their own interest. Great example is when the GOP voted to increase taxes on payroll taxes but refused to increase taxes on earned income. On that point even some conservatives complained.
Second point: why do banks pay much much less interest on borrowed money (which then in turn lend back to the government at a profit) while charging students 9 times the interest on student debt. Again the GOP blocked a law that was meant to change that.
So where is the Tea Party now?????
If you really want to understand the issues of the struggling middle class I highly recommend Elizabeth Warren's book The Two Income Trap, that book totally changed my thinking on working moms. Main weakness is she doesn't embrace frugality but that's minor point.
Mods perhaps this would be a good opportunity to split the thread.
-
For some reason the forum is super slow to load, so can't quote.
I don't know where you all shop but not a high class dresser, jeans and a T-shirt is all I need, Wife is similar, but never run into a problem like this! As mentioned before it doesn't cost much to look classy.
Off topic: the comment about the right wing echo chamber is 100% correct! Day in and day out right wing blogs radio and TV (and now Facebook) remind us about how lazy the unemployed and working poor are. Remember Regan's welfare queen or the guy featured on Fox who was in a band and used food stamps to eat. Why do you think the OP complained about the cashier sneering at her she pulled out her "food stamps" card. It's because that's all she hears or reads about.
OK slight edit: maybe not daily, as long as their is a black democrat president they will spend most of their time complaining about how he's ruining the country (note the issue is bit less about race than the fact the President is Democratic), should by chance a Republican gain the presidency all will be forgiven and we go back to bashing the poor.
I could be wrong on this but I don't think I am. The GOP/Tea Party base is white and rural and almost to a T willing to vote against their own interest. Great example is when the GOP voted to increase taxes on payroll taxes but refused to increase taxes on earned income. On that point even some conservatives complained.
Second point: why do banks pay much much less interest on borrowed money (which then in turn lend back to the government at a profit) while charging students 9 times the interest on student debt. Again the GOP blocked a law that was meant to change that.
So where is the Tea Party now?????
If you really want to understand the issues of the struggling middle class I highly recommend Elizabeth Warren's book The Two Income Trap, that book totally changed my thinking on working moms. Main weakness is she doesn't embrace frugality but that's minor point.
Mods perhaps this would be a good opportunity to split the thread.
PLEASE just shut up. That old saw about the pot calling the kettle black? That's you. You generalize and pigeon-hole people. You paint large swaths of the country as ignorant because they disagree with your value judgments. You blame it on the "echo" chamber while recommending we read a book by a hyper-partisan Senator with a history of twisting statistics to fit her chosen narrative. (See: criticisms of her work on medical bankrupcies.)
I am sick to death of people bringing politics into places where it doesn't belong.
-
For some reason the forum is super slow to load, so can't quote.
I don't know where you all shop but not a high class dresser, jeans and a T-shirt is all I need, Wife is similar, but never run into a problem like this! As mentioned before it doesn't cost much to look classy.
Off topic: the comment about the right wing echo chamber is 100% correct! Day in and day out right wing blogs radio and TV (and now Facebook) remind us about how lazy the unemployed and working poor are. Remember Regan's welfare queen or the guy featured on Fox who was in a band and used food stamps to eat. Why do you think the OP complained about the cashier sneering at her she pulled out her "food stamps" card. It's because that's all she hears or reads about.
OK slight edit: maybe not daily, as long as their is a black democrat president they will spend most of their time complaining about how he's ruining the country (note the issue is bit less about race than the fact the President is Democratic), should by chance a Republican gain the presidency all will be forgiven and we go back to bashing the poor.
I could be wrong on this but I don't think I am. The GOP/Tea Party base is white and rural and almost to a T willing to vote against their own interest. Great example is when the GOP voted to increase taxes on payroll taxes but refused to increase taxes on earned income. On that point even some conservatives complained.
Second point: why do banks pay much much less interest on borrowed money (which then in turn lend back to the government at a profit) while charging students 9 times the interest on student debt. Again the GOP blocked a law that was meant to change that.
So where is the Tea Party now?????
If you really want to understand the issues of the struggling middle class I highly recommend Elizabeth Warren's book The Two Income Trap, that book totally changed my thinking on working moms. Main weakness is she doesn't embrace frugality but that's minor point.
Mods perhaps this would be a good opportunity to split the thread.
PLEASE just shut up. That old saw about the pot calling the kettle black? That's you. You generalize and pigeon-hole people. You paint large swaths of the country as ignorant because they disagree with your value judgments. You blame it on the "echo" chamber while recommending we read a book by a hyper-partisan Senator with a history of twisting statistics to fit her chosen narrative. (See: criticisms of her work on medical bankrupcies.)
I am sick to death of people bringing politics into places where it doesn't belong.
I'd just like to echo these comments.
-
I would rather look poor and have a lot of money, than look rich and have no money.
However you also have to find a balance that is right for you. Some people are perfect happy in Goodwill clothes and others aren't.
I have the opposite issue that you have. The way I look does not reflect my frugal lifestyle. Years and years ago I splurged on a nice designer wardrobe (before I realized I was killing myself financially). So if people find out that I actually live very cheaply they assume that I am living maxed out on credit (not the case), I just am still the same size, get my shoe heels replaced, and haven't had a need to buy new clothes in almost 2 years.
***Edited to add "(before I realized I was killing myself financially).
-
I am not really all that concerned with my appearance, but I have figured out that you can put a small amount of effort to meet whatever base level is deemed acceptable socially. I wear nice new clothes to work but my polo's are off brands or off the 70% rack. I drive a nice car (acura) but it gets good gas mileage and is >10 yrs old. I live in a normal suburb community but chose to buy a foreclosure and fix it up, etc.
I realize that it is important to play the game somewhat, but you can do so without that much effort.
+1
There's absolutely no reason to wear a hairshirt if you're frugal. Hell, with all the thriftstore, TJMaxx's, outlet stores, etc. out there you can even look rich without paying very much. I can't even remember the last time I paid full price for an item of clothing, yet I manage to wear nice looking things without paying much for them.
If that doesn't work, you can always put on a stocking cap, grow a mustache or put on a pair of 1950's style glasses and people will just think you're a hipster instead of poor.
-
I am not really all that concerned with my appearance, but I have figured out that you can put a small amount of effort to meet whatever base level is deemed acceptable socially. I wear nice new clothes to work but my polo's are off brands or off the 70% rack. I drive a nice car (acura) but it gets good gas mileage and is >10 yrs old. I live in a normal suburb community but chose to buy a foreclosure and fix it up, etc.
I realize that it is important to play the game somewhat, but you can do so without that much effort.
+1
There's absolutely no reason to wear a hairshirt if you're frugal. Hell, with all the thriftstore, TJMaxx's, outlet stores, etc. out there you can even look rich without paying very much. I can't even remember the last time I paid full price for an item of clothing, yet I manage to wear nice looking things without paying much for them.
If that doesn't work, you can always put on a stocking cap, grow a mustache or put on a pair of 1950's style glasses and people will just think you're a hipster instead of poor.
Yeah, I guess the title of this thread "tired of looking poor and getting angry" pretty much leads to the obvious --- Well then, stop looking poor. It is so cheap to dress nicer than 95% of the people, it is hardly a budget line. I think I may have spent $100 on clothes this year. Mostly very nice thrift store stuff. Some completely unused.
Yet, I still have a closet filled with clothes I haven't worn in over 2 years. Time for some serious closet cleaning and selective thrift store shopping! (hint - avoid garage sales and look for niche thrift stores located in upscale, older neighborhoods) As a bonus the thrift stores around here all support charity work.
-
So, the OP doesn't seem to think it's their wardrobe, they mentioned the foodstamps example at the grocery store.
here's my response to that. First of all, without getting too political, I am NOT a republican in any way. I'm not really a democrat either but I lean closer to the left. If I had to describe myself I'd say I'm a left leaning libertarian who believes in public schools. anyways, I digress.
you have mentioned you adopted a special needs child. Which is awesome. You accept some state assistance which you are entitled to, and which makes financial sense towards achieving your financial goals. You could, presumably afford to pay for these things yourself and thus reduce your savings rate, but you are choosing to accept the state assistance that you rightly qualify for. So, in my humble (and possibly offensive) opinion I believe that part of the "cost" of accepting that state assistance that you don't TRULY NEED is accepting the stigma that goes along with it. If you don't want the judgement that comes along with foodstamps, then don't accept the foodstamps.
I'll go even 1 step further and say that the rush limbaugh listeners of the nation would be more judgemental of the foodstamps recipient who can actually afford food than the foodstamps recipient who otherwise could not afford food.
Now, I'm not saying you should quit foodstamps, or implying you are not entitled to them, or that you are scamming the system. I'm just saying there is no "free lunch" in this world, and the price you must pay for your foodstamps is some internal humility and external judgement. If you don't believe it is worth that price, then don't continue to accept it.
One of my best friends is a foster parent and as such receives state assistance for her foster kids. she experiences the same issues and I believe what she is doing is great. I'm not begruding her state assistance at all.
One of my other best friends has a very high net worth (millions) due to an inheritance and she has a disabled child and she has almost no income (lives off her investments) so he qualifies for state services because of her low income and his disabled status. She accepts these services even though she could afford to pay for them. My feelings are mixed on this issue.
just a different take on this whole thread. I don't think the OP is talking about clothes.
-
Missj, while I do think it is something one learns with age and experience, to not care about what other strangers think of you, I guess my take, why SHOULD someone be stigmatised or sneered at because they use food stamps? What happened to us, as fellow citizens that we behave this way towards other people? I just think it's sad. As they say it in Graceland, "Don't judge another man until you have walked a mile in his shoes."
-
Missj, while I do think it is something one learns with age and experience, to not care about what other strangers think of you, I guess my take, why SHOULD someone be stigmatised or sneered at because they use food stamps? What happened to us, as fellow citizens that we behave this way towards other people? I just think it's sad. As they say it in Graceland, "Don't judge another man until you have walked a mile in his shoes."
I hear you. But why lament the fact that the world is not as it should be?
You have quoted a well known and wise saying. I'll quote the serenity prayer:
"God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference."
It is unlikely the OP can change the way the world views food stamp recipients. All the OP can change is their own attitude and emotions toward it, or whether or not they continue to accept the assistance. I believe it is a waste of energy to dwell on how the attitudes of others are not right or fair.
-
My brother in law works with the working poor and homeless and often comments, when he sees a fancy car or nice house, oh they must be rich. I just laugh and tell him to read The Millionaire Next Door!
-
...One of my other best friends has a very high net worth (millions) due to an inheritance and she has a disabled child and she has almost no income (lives off her investments) so he qualifies for state services because of her low income...
This statement is bugging me, off topic though it is.
She should be getting a decent income from millions. Something isn't right here, and maybe it's her investment manager.
-
This statement is bugging me, off topic though it is.
She should be getting a decent income from millions. Something isn't right here, and maybe it's her investment manager.
If you're on these forums you should be familiar with this line of thinking. Jacob from ERE lives on ~7k per year but has what must be close to a 7 figure net worth, MMM lives on ~25k per year for a 3 person household and is above 7 figures.
Many people think it is ok to rely on state services even if you are high-net worth; some states don't means-test their programs.
Best,
Mr. PoP
-
This statement is bugging me, off topic though it is.
She should be getting a decent income from millions. Something isn't right here, and maybe it's her investment manager.
If you're on these forums you should be familiar with this line of thinking. Jacob from ERE lives on ~7k per year but has what must be close to a 7 figure net worth, MMM lives on ~25k per year for a 3 person household and is above 7 figures.
Many people think it is ok to rely on state services even if you are high-net worth; some states don't means-test their programs.
Best,
Mr. PoP
These low incomes are what they've chosen to take from their income generating stash.
The example of missj was presented as low income, not by choice.
-
Yeah, I'm not really sure of how it goes. I don't get too nosy with her finances and she is quite hush hush about it. Much of the deceased estate was held in commercial real estate in a part of the country that property values have not fully recovered so the heirs have decided not to sell the properties yet.
The properties and securities are held in trust with quarterly net income distributions and somehow the total if those distributions keeps her under the amount that the state is concerned with. They don't get food stamps or cash assistance but they do get full medical and dental for the child and free after school care and I think reduced price school lunch.
Anyways, they are an awesome and conscientious family. I've not walked a mile in their shoes (or rolled a mile in his wheelchair)
-
MOD NOTE: Locked due to unnecessarily rude behavior. If you can't post your thoughts in an intelligent manner, without insulting someone else (even if they disagree with you on politics, or whatever), don't post. Thanks.