The Cleanest Slate Ever?

[PhilosopherBadass]

Hello one and all!

I realize that there are others out there, but this is a basic "What should I do?" thread with a couple of specific requests for advice that might make it worthy of independent posting.  Here are the details:

• I am a 25-year-old single male living in Connecticut, where I understand the cost of living to be quite high.
• I graduated with a BA in Philosophy in 2010.  As one of the liberal arts, Philosophy has trained me to think logically and to write well, and has exposed me to a bit of historical and cultural knowledge that finance graduates probably lack.  Still, there is no industry directly aligned to receive graduates in my discipline.
• Thanks to being a Catholic seminarian at the time, I was able to graduate from college with absolutely zero student debt.  There is a "gentlemen's agreement" that I will pay back the seminary now that I have left, but this has no interest and no associated timetable.  It's pretty much up to me and my word.
• I did two years of a four-year graduate program in Theology, and therefore have no graduate degree.  I earned a total of 69 graduate credits.
• I left the seminary in May 2013 (just a few months ago) with no money (the vow of poverty will do that to you), but also no debt.
• In order to have money to live on while crashing with my folks, I took out a loan for $5,000.  Obviously, from my new Mustachian perspective, I understand that this was a serious mistake.
• I compounded that first mistake by using some of the money from the above loan to put a down payment on a car loan.  I now have a 2009 Chevy Cobalt, which gets a good 30 MPG.  Sadly, this was a $10,000 loan.  Let the face-punching commence.
• Fortunately, I am not unemployed.  I was rather lucky to find a job teaching high school religion within a month of leaving the seminary, and that job started about a month ago.  I moved to Connecticut (from Central New York State) to take the job.
• I currently live in a room that I rent for a rather low price ($425).  The rental price is quite nice, but the trouble is the distance to work.  I drive 14 miles each way, five days a week.  If I move closer, my rent will go up, and I will have to add in utility bills (currently covered by the rent).
• I am not sure that I want to keep teaching forever.  In your suggestions, feel free to include the possibility of other career options.

Now, here are the numbers from a monthly perspective:


---------------------------------------------------------
Net Income--$2,118


Rent--$425
Car Payment--$225.5
Loan Payment--$125.17
Car Insurance--$83.4
Cell Phone--$45
Gas--$160
Groceries--$200


Left over--$853.93 (~40% of net income)
---------------------------------------------------------


Before stumbling upon MMM, I was inclined to blow a lot of that remainder.  Admittedly, some of that spending may not be a bad idea.  I moved into the room I'm renting without any furniture.  I have been sleeping on an air mattress for about two months.  I just bought a bed (no financing), which will arrive in about a week.  Other furniture I plan to buy more slowly, utilizing Craigslist as much as possible.  Still, my pre-Mustache spending would have included huge amounts of dining out, coffee shop expenses, drinking alcohol at bars, etc.  I now have some motivation to do otherwise, thanks to MMM.


However, I have a few questions for those more experienced, and I would love to hear the input of this badass community.  I need some help, but thankfully I am starting rather young:

• The monthly income listed above is a calculation based on my yearly salary of $34,830 broken into 26 pay-periods, assuming two per month (in reality I think there are two months per year where there are three).  In one of his reader case-studies, MMM proposed that $35,000/year should be the absolute minimum that a hard-working person earns in a year.  This was a case study for someone who did not have the financial benefit of a college education like I do.  So, it sounds like I am not making enough money.  Understand that I am not in a job that allows me to negotiate for more pay.  There is an agreement between the school and the teachers' association, and the pay rate is what it is.  It will not get much better with seniority, and will only improve by about $3,000 upon completing of a master's degree that I would have to fund myself.  So, the question is:  What should I do with my life?  I am seeking creative ideas that will make me more money, perhaps using the "skills" acquired in the course of my education.  However, I am also open to manual labor if the pay will be better.  Again, anything and everything is on the table.  Don't be shy.
• Where should I live?  Right now, I live in Connecticut.  I like Connecticut, but I have already spent time living in Pennsylvania, New York, California, Connecticut, and New Hampshire.  I am the kind of person who is very open to move around.  I did not particularly care for California, but I would go back for the right opportunity.  I would move literally anywhere in the country if it were a chance to seriously increase my 'stache and get to the promised land of early retirement faster.  So, where is the best place in the USA to move?
• What is the deal with investing?  I have gotten the strong impression from MMM (admittedly, I haven't read the entire blog so far) that the Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund is some kind of gold mine.  Do I understand correctly that it has averaged over 7% since its inception?  And that this growth is paid in quarterly dividends, which, if re-invested, can have the effect of a 7% interest rate compounded quarterly?  That sounds pretty freakin' awesome.  I've run the numbers a bit (if I understand the math correctly), and the gain is incredible over time and with the right level of savings.  Still, is this the only thing I need to do?  What the hell is a 401(k)?  What are IRAs?  Are these things for some reason better or worse than the Vanguard index fund?  Why does Vanguard sell all of these things if one is clearly superior?  Any other advice on non-real-estate investing would be great!
• Speaking of real estate, should I buy a house?  Obviously, I am not in the position to do so now.  I will be paying down my car (7.94% interest rate) and then the other loan (6.65%) with all of my monthly surplus.  But, once that's done, and I have an extra $350.67 each month thank to eliminating those bills, is a home purchase the right thing to do?  At the heart of it, I'd say my confusion here is simple.  I don't get MMM's attitude toward mortgages.  On the one hand, he advises us to run away from debt like it's something physically dangerous.  On the other hand, it seems like property ownership, handled well, can turn a significant profit (especially for people who can repair their own homes).  What are your thoughts?
• MMM is clearly a big fan of carpentry and manual trades.  He had a two-part post about 50 jobs that can ear over $50,000 without a college degree, which I thoroughly enjoyed.  I have to wonder about his figures, though (not to complain--I hope he's right).  The Bureau of Labor Statistics gives me the impression that electricians, plumbers, mechanics, and carpenters all earn less than $40,000/year on average.  Obviously, there are places where they make more, and places where they make less.  But what other factors contribute?  If I took the time to become a legitimate carpenter (which has some appeal for me), what would I need to do to be reasonably certain of earning at least $50,000?
• Where is the best place in the country to be a carpenter right now?  An electrician?  A plumber?
• How do I become a carpenter?  An electrician?  A plumber?

Clearly, this post has grown insanely long and troublesome for anybody who's read the whole thing.  I wholeheartedly apologize.  Thanks for your time and your contributions!


TL,DR:  What should I do?  Where should I go?  Should I buy a house?  Help!

[newideas2013]

I don't take national averages very seriously on income, an electrician in rural Georgia might make 20/hr but one in a busy area might make 36/hr.

Generally you will want to get some kind of apprenticeship, whether it's in carpentry, plumbing or electrical (or other) and they can be a little hard to get as they often aren't advertised in the usual ways. Your best bet is probably walking around town with good resume in hand and dropping them off in person with local contractors and expressing your sincere desire to start a new career in the trades, and they will question you why this trade, hopefully your answer suits them. Getting that first position is probably the most difficult. For carpentry, look into home builders and see if you can find out which framing crews they use. It could get your foot in the door starting as a roofer, who generally make OK money and are in demand as most people are afraid of heights. Be willing to start from scratch as a labourer. I'd try and get a feel for which cities are booming and which are slow, what prevailing wages are in each major market as I'm in Canada I don't really know those things for the US.

I know where I live, electricians (journeymen) and plumbers make a good 38/hr which comes to a solid 75-80k before overtime (and taxes) but my area is pretty booming. Still 35/hr is not uncommon in parts of the US for journeymen. Typically a 1st year trades apprentice will start at 40-50% of the journeymen rate  for that company, and advance at generally 10% per year up to 80% as a 4th year, then write JM test and get the full 100%. Jobs are much easier to find and you have far more market value once you make it to 2nd-4th year apprenticeship.

Try to get on with a company that has formal apprentice training, nothing worse then working in a state with no recognized apprenticeship program, working in a trade for 12 years, and having none of it recognized once you move.

My long term goal in the trades is to work for about a decade, get plenty of experience, masters license, contractors license and start a business which basically only requires experience, insurance, tools and a van. Then you can bid jobs and quietly set your rates to 80-130/hr as part of the total package of a bid (this is of course dependent on local competition), but generally the  areas where you can get away with 110/hr have higher priced homes, and areas where you can only get away with 55/hr you can buy a home for 110k so the end result is pretty moot.

[matchewed]

1. I don't know that's your call.
2. I don't know that's your call.
3. The total us stock market has on averaged returned 7% a year, not quarterly and certainly not in dividends. You can google some of these investment vehicles to get a better idea as to what they are. A 401k is a (usually company sponsored) retirement investment vehicle, IRA's are similar but not usually company sponsored. Given your questions you should really do some basic research, do some searches in the forum for books to read on investing, take those books out from your local library.
4. Run the NYT calculator. That will let you know whether it is worthwhile to own a house given your future. But I do have to say that if you are uncertain about your path forward you probably do not want to buy a house. And sell your car and buy a reliable used one for half the price, if your commute is only 14 miles maybe even a quarter of the price.
5. Probably anywhere, more so in places that are growing, less so in places that are shrinking (population and economic growth wise).
6. Trade school. I've researched trade schools in CT. Most seem for profit which is sketchy, but you can actually approach the trade school and ask for some statistics in their programs. Some of the statistics will tell you how many of the students graduating out of particular programs have landed jobs in those fields.

[footenote]

Here's a lucrative alternative that might suit you: Business Analyst. I consulted with a talented BA who had a Philosophy major a couple of years ago. (During breaks we enjoyed discussing Derek Parfit. ;)  Here's what BAs do: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_analyst

Indeed.com cites $76,000 as average pay for BAs: http://www.indeed.com/salary/Business-Analyst.html

Contract BAs here in Minneapolis-St. Paul make $45 / hour and higher. (Much higher for experienced BAs in an in-demand sector like healthcare.) So if you want a stash-building gig in which your undergrad skills of reasoning, analyzing systems, writing will be leveraged, it's an option to consider.

[oldladystache]

Don't buy a house until you see a clear need or desire for one, and only after you run the numbers to be sure it makes sense, and only when you know where you will live for the foreseeable future.

Don't be in a hurry to jump into a new career. A side hustle could bring in some money and help you decide what interests you and what you may be good at.

All your questions about investment details can be best answered at the bogleheads forum. You shouldn't worry much about investing until you are out of debt, so you have time to do some reading there.

You'll do fine.

[PhilosopherBadass]

1. I don't know that's your call.
2. I don't know that's your call.

Thanks for the detailed opinion.  While I acknowledge that it is my call, do you have any advice?

3. The total us stock market has on averaged returned 7% a year, not quarterly and certainly not in dividends. You can google some of these investment vehicles to get a better idea as to what they are. A 401k is a (usually company sponsored) retirement investment vehicle, IRA's are similar but not usually company sponsored. Given your questions you should really do some basic research, do some searches in the forum for books to read on investing, take those books out from your local library.

While I appreciate the advice that I "should really do some basic research," for all of the information that it provides, part of the source of my confusion, to be clear, is MMM's assertion that he gets, and is confident of continuing to get, a 7% return on the investments he has.  In my reading so far, the only investment I have seen him call out by name is the Vanguard Total Stock Market Index, which itself advertises that its growth exceeds 7% per year, on average, because the same is true of the US stock market.  Since it's a Saturday evening and my library is now closed, and also not open on Sunday, and since I infer from your reply that you know the answer, might it not be expedient for you to simply tell me what the difference is between an investment returning 7% per year, doing so quarterly (at 1.75%, obviously), and paying this growth in dividends?  Are you saying that I am incorrect in understanding that this fund pays out quarterly dividends?

4. Run the NYT calculator. That will let you know whether it is worthwhile to own a house given your future. But I do have to say that if you are uncertain about your path forward you probably do not want to buy a house. And sell your car and buy a reliable used one for half the price, if your commute is only 14 miles maybe even a quarter of the price.

Perhaps it was unclear that I am not considering buying a house right now, while my employment future is yet to be decided.  Selling the car is something that I will seriously consider, and start snooping around Craigslist for better options, once I have paid down the loan enough for the sale price to cover the rest of it (which should not take me long).

5. Probably anywhere, more so in places that are growing, less so in places that are shrinking (population and economic growth wise).

In your opinion/experience, what factors indicate the kind of growth you're talking about, and how might I use the magic of the internet to find the necessary figures?

6. Trade school. I've researched trade schools in CT. Most seem for profit which is sketchy, but you can actually approach the trade school and ask for some statistics in their programs. Some of the statistics will tell you how many of the students graduating out of particular programs have landed jobs in those fields.

That same factor has been off-putting for me.  I guess one of the things that confuses me is whether this trade school endeavor is necessary.  Another poster indicates that I can do an "apprenticeship," which might have a level of official recognition ranging all the way down to none at all.  Perhaps this is the kind of thing that varies state-to-state?

[PhilosopherBadass]

Footnote,

Thanks for the tip.  When I hear "business analyst," I think of the first-year Harvard recruits doing consulting work for giant multi-national management consulting firms.  While that seems like interesting and exciting work, and while it pays well, I have always had the impression that you're almost guaranteed not to get a job unless recruited directly from a college campus.

[matchewed]

1. I don't know that's your call.
2. I don't know that's your call.

Thanks for the detailed opinion.  While I acknowledge that it is my call, do you have any advice?

Nope, that is why I said I don't know. I'm not trying to come off as a dick, I just don't have an opinion on what you should do with your life or where you should live. I think that as a stranger from the internet that those are huge decisions that my opinion if I even had one shouldn't matter for those big decisions.

[/size]

3. The total us stock market has on averaged returned 7% a year, not quarterly and certainly not in dividends. You can google some of these investment vehicles to get a better idea as to what they are. A 401k is a (usually company sponsored) retirement investment vehicle, IRA's are similar but not usually company sponsored. Given your questions you should really do some basic research, do some searches in the forum for books to read on investing, take those books out from your local library.

While I appreciate the advice that I "should really do some basic research," for all of the information that it provides, part of the source of my confusion, to be clear, is MMM's assertion that he gets, and is confident of continuing to get, a 7% return on the investments he has.  In my reading so far, the only investment I have seen him call out by name is the Vanguard Total Stock Market Index, which itself advertises that its growth exceeds 7% per year, on average, because the same is true of the US stock market.  Since it's a Saturday evening and my library is now closed, and also not open on Sunday, and since I infer from your reply that you know the answer, might it not be expedient for you to simply tell me what the difference is between an investment returning 7% per year, doing so quarterly (at 1.75%, obviously), and paying this growth in dividends?  Are you saying that I am incorrect in understanding that this fund pays out quarterly dividends?

It's economic growth and some small dividends which cause the growth of the total market, the fund does pay out quarterly dividend but that does not equate the return. The majority of the return is the overall economic growth. What MMM and most people on this board recommend is long term investing so when that 7% is bandied about it is on average in that long term. Some years might be -40% some might be +50%, the breakdown over the long term is slightly higher than 0 and is 7%. The reason why I recommend studying these things is so you have the basics down and aren't taking advice blindly. Being knowledgeable about your finances in my opinion means you have an understanding about what you're investing in. If you can't wait until Monday for the library to open before you start investing then check out jlcollinsnh.com, read his stock series. 

4. Run the NYT calculator. That will let you know whether it is worthwhile to own a house given your future. But I do have to say that if you are uncertain about your path forward you probably do not want to buy a house. And sell your car and buy a reliable used one for half the price, if your commute is only 14 miles maybe even a quarter of the price.

Perhaps it was unclear that I am not considering buying a house right now, while my employment future is yet to be decided.  Selling the car is something that I will seriously consider, and start snooping around Craigslist for better options, once I have paid down the loan enough for the sale price to cover the rest of it (which should not take me long).

5. Probably anywhere, more so in places that are growing, less so in places that are shrinking (population and economic growth wise).

In your opinion/experience, what factors indicate the kind of growth you're talking about, and how might I use the magic of the internet to find the necessary figures?

The kind of growth I'm talking about is places where unemployment is low, housing is going up, and the population is rising. It depends on the kind of place you want to move to, rural, suburban, or urban; but most towns will release demographic information. You can also identify places that seem opportune and then research the trends of those factors I already mentioned over the last few years. I use google for most of my internet magic at first.

[/font][/size]

6. Trade school. I've researched trade schools in CT. Most seem for profit which is sketchy, but you can actually approach the trade school and ask for some statistics in their programs. Some of the statistics will tell you how many of the students graduating out of particular programs have landed jobs in those fields.

That same factor has been off-putting for me.  I guess one of the things that confuses me is whether this trade school endeavor is necessary.  Another poster indicates that I can do an "apprenticeship," which might have a level of official recognition ranging all the way down to none at all.  Perhaps this is the kind of thing that varies state-to-state?

The trade school can help you get your foot in the door to an apprenticeship faster than going cold. States do have their own licensing laws for various trades but I think that is mostly based off of who can say they are a licensed electrician. I used to proctor testing for the licensing and no one had to show me that they completed an apprenticeship in CT, they just showed to take the test.

[PhilosopherBadass]

Thanks, matchewed.  I certainly can wait until Monday.  In fact, I will be waiting until I am not saddled with debt.  My hope is that that is not too long.

I appreciate your help on the investment and return question.  It's the kind of think that neither I nor anyone I know has really dabbled in, and taking the plunge with a few thousand dollars seems like a risk.  Great point about focusing on that 7% as an average.  Looking at Vanguard's nifty graphs and tables, I see that there was a conspicuous period from about 2007-2011 where it didn't grow at all.  Hmmm.  I wonder what happened there.  (Kidding.)  Still, that the average, over a long period of time, should be 7% is fascinating to me.  I used to have a savings account that definitely returned less than 1%, so that kind of payoff is pretty impressive to me.

I am tempted to pick up some carpentry work over the summer, when I am getting paid for teaching I've already done and could afford to do nothing at all (albeit still earning less than a paltry $35,000/year).  If I enjoy it, I may see where it goes.

[MrsPete]

You're young, single and healthy.  I'd suggest you keep the teaching job AND pick up a second job in one of the aforementioned fields.  This'll give you an idea of which you want to pursue. 

I would not suggest that you continue working towards a master's degree.  You're not sure you want to continue teaching, and if you go into one of those trades, the extra education will not benefit you.

I'm surprised no one has said, Pay back the seminary now!   You say it's a "gentleman's agreement", but you do owe it, and you should take care of it before you buy a house and continue with these other plans.  If you don't begin retiring this debt, it may not cost you interest, but you'll never find a day when you'll say, "Oh, my.  I have so much money that it's convenient for me to begin this payback now." 

[PhilosopherBadass]

Mrs. Pete,

Thanks!  I appreciate that input very much.  Certainly, I would not put a dime into the master's degree before being sure I want to continue teaching.  My contract gives me five years to start working toward it, so there's plenty of time.  Picking up a second, part-time job in an appealing trade is a great idea, and perhaps exactly what I will do!


As for paying back the seminary, I think your approach is spot-on.  Certainly, my intention in mentioning that the loan is a "gentlemen's agreement" was not to indicate that I might not pay it.  However, I think I will focus on fixing my interest-charging mistakes first, then the seminary, and then have the debt-free situation I would need to consider, ironically, taking on more debt in the form of a mortgage.

[footenote]

Footnote,

Thanks for the tip.  When I hear "business analyst," I think of the first-year Harvard recruits doing consulting work for giant multi-national management consulting firms.  While that seems like interesting and exciting work, and while it pays well, I have always had the impression that you're almost guaranteed not to get a job unless recruited directly from a college campus.

Incorrect assumption: This is not ivy-league-recruited work. Ordinary folks like you (and me!) and learn it quickly and do it. Particularly in a labor-constrained area like MSP, you don't need to fulfill some sort of ivy league image.

[PhilosopherBadass]

I'm happy to hear that, as that's an image that I will not be fulfilling.  I like this possibility.

Speaking of geography, can you offer me any thoughts on your area?

[Freckles]

Have you read this blog post?  http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/07/interview-with-a-ceo-ridiculous-student-loans-vs-the-future-of-education/  also, the comments to this one are filled with other places that offer online classes.

Maybe if you were interested in trying a completely different career, you could do one of these low-cost self-study courses and start building up a portfolio while keeping your teaching job until you were ready to move on.

I don't know if it's a mustachian place to live, but I love love love Portland, OR.  I moved here in 2006 from California and I don't ever want to leave.  I like CA, but Portland's the place for me.  And I'm from Arizona, but I hate it and won't return.  There's my geographical input.  :)

[LWYRUP]

I'll bite on geography.  Obviously personal preferences are a factor, but in terms of dollars and cents your future going forward will probably be easier if you select a state with high average incomes, low average housing prices, low overall tax burden and low unemployment.  These are all factors that can be researched and verified.  In my neck of the woods, for example, we can see:

New Hampshire ($62,647 avg. income, $229,500 avg. home price, $3,717 avg. state and local tax burden, 5% unemployment)
Rhode Island ($53,636 avg. income, $239,900 avg. home price, $4,627 avg. state and local tax burden, 9.1% unemployment)

You can see from the above comparison that New Hampshire is just plainly an easier place for the average person to build wealth.  Without any unique personal factors (e.g., a killer job offer), it would be logical for someone in the Northeast to choose to move to New Hampshire over Rhode Island. 

In terms of personal preferences, like many people on this forum I would strong prefer somewhere where walking and biking are common and encouraged and where free outdoor activities are plentiful.  But blood is thicker than water, so ultimately I would want to be in an area near my family and and close friends and would suck up a worse financial deal to do so unless the differences were painfully clear and the distance would not be too burdensome (e.g., I probably would move from RI to NH because the choice is so obvious, but I wouldn't move to Alaska just because it fares well on my financial test (and it very much does)).

Links I used:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_income
http://www.statisticbrain.com/home-sales-average-price/
http://taxfoundation.org/article/state-and-local-tax-burdens-all-states-one-year-1977-2010
http://www.bls.gov/web/laus/laumstrk.htm

States that appear to do well particularly on the test: Alaska, Colorado, New Hampshire, Utah, Wyoming.  Also all places with awesome hiking as an added bonus. 

The only other thing I would add just as my 2 cents from watching my friends move around the country is that there is often a strong correlation between places with high incomes and high cost of living (though not always, see NH vs. RI).  If you can put yourself in a position to get a high income job that you like, the best financial move is likely to suck up the high cost of living often needed to get that job and try to make do (e.g., work in finance in Manhattan, but live in Brooklyn or NJ).  If you can't get the high income job that makes that place so expensive, it is probably best to move elsewhere.  And, of course, if you can get a high income job in a low cost of living state that you also want to live in (e.g., a surgeon in Alaska that loves to hike), then obviously that is a no brainer and you should jump at the opportunity. 

[footenote]

Philosopher - Unemployment in the Twin Cities for jobs like Business Analyst (including Project and Program Managers) is zero. (And unemployment is less than zero if you want to learn how to code.)

Cost of living is relatively low. Cultural amenities are high. (We have the highest per-capita theater attendance in the US.) Here's Yglesias' take: http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2012/11/06/minneapolis_research_says_you_should_move_to_the_twin_cities.html

If you can hack the winters, it's a lovely place to live. (I've lived in northern Ohio and Connecticut and the winters in Minnesota are, IMO, more pleasant. YMMV.)

[plantingourpennies]

I graduated with a BA in Philosophy, now make good money in B2B sales.

It was shocking to see how well the skills transferred.

best,
Mr. PoP

[ch12]

Where shall I go? What shall I do?



Here is the link to the NYT column on where to find jobs (North Dakota): http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/06/where-the-jobs-for-the-young-are-and-arent/?_r=0

I moved to what the NYT calls the "upper Midwest" (though not actually North Dakota) myself for a job. North Dakota has a huge shortage of people for the jobs that they have available.

Williston has skipped the recession entirely. Unemployment there is less than 2 percent. The population, the mayor estimates, has grown from 12,000 to 20,000 in the last four years.

"We actually have probably between 2,000 and 3,000 job openings in Williston right now," Koeser says.

From NPR: http://www.npr.org/2011/09/25/140784004/new-boom-reshapes-oil-world-rocks-north-dakota

Anecdotal evidence: My roommate's cousins live in Fargo, ND and when they decided to look for a job as 14-year-olds, they had 2-3 offers each. That was before fracking happened and ND exploded with oil money. If I honestly needed a job, that's where I would go.

Elsewhere
It might be nice to look into job opportunities in NH, considering how close that is to your current location. If you'd be open to it, it looks like NH is a hotspot for jobs for people in our age bracket.

I work at a software company that is extremely happy to hire philosophy majors. There's a lot of rigorous testing that goes on (something like 5 rounds) before the software company hires, but it's a fantastic gig once you are in (at least in my few months of being here). A lot of the logic stuff that you've done translates really well into software stuff. As many other people have said, coding is a fantastic skill that might be a good fit for you. The employment prospects, as they say, are very good.

However, coding bores me to tears, and I'm not at the level in any language (Javascript, Ruby on Rails, HTML) that I've picked up that I would be paid to be a dev. I work in Android development (though not in coding anything, thank goodness) and it's a hopping field.

I read that link on Minneapolis and it is the coldest place in America, but I think that it's good for quality of life, with the extremely low prices and pretty good salaries. I will say that quite a lot of my coworkers have moved from Minnesota to Madison, WI, where I work at a software company that is a medium-sized fish in a ~560k person small pond.

By virtue of being the biggest game in town, it has a lot of sway in the area.  The CEO is one of the 10 richest women in America and one of only 7 self-made women in the Forbes 400. http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2012/09/19/the-richest-women-in-america/ I have a pretty great quality of life, in terms of working 40-50 hours a week for slightly more than the OP is making as a religion teacher. I have subsidized food for half or less the price you'd pay in a restaurant and a 10-15 minute commute. It's 7 minutes on a totally clear day aka when driving at 6 AM and 15 minutes on a OH NO SUCH HORRIBLE TRAFFIC!! day. :)

I will say that the OP should definitely consider selling the 2009 Cobalt. It's insanely expensive with the loan.

[footenote]

PoP and ch12 make excellent suggestions. I think their diverse suggestions imply that much depends on your temperament.

FYI, if you are focused on FIRE and you can hack coding, it's the highest hourly rate I am aware of; talented Ruby on Rails contract developers are making $150 / hr in the Twin Cities right now. (PoP - how much does B2B sales pay? I would think very well also.)

So examine where your temperament intersects with the maximum pay and the lowest cost of living area.

[plantingourpennies]

(PoP - how much does B2B sales pay? I would think very well also.)

So examine where your temperament intersects with the maximum pay and the lowest cost of living area.

We hire "wet off the boat" college grads and give them a 60k starting target income (this is low in the industry).

If you are smart (and OP is), you will do well-I did 85 my first year, and 110 the second, and got promoted after that. If you live in a city you can do 350, but you are basically working investment banker hours at that point.

I don't know how many hours of training it would take for OP to become a good developer, but I believe he has the skill set for sales right now.

Best,
Mr. PoP

[PhilosopherBadass]

Excellent contributions, all!  The MMM community appears to be truly that, and I am well pleased!

Thanks to Blinx for the geographical information.  It is well worth considering.  The family is all somewhere in the Northeast, and so I may have a slight preference for the region.  New Hampshire seems to be coming out ahead, in that case.

PoP, your figures, and your assertion that an intelligent philosophy major can do so much better in B2B sales than I am doing in Catholic education, has certainly piqued my interest.  Admittedly, though, I know nothing about the field.  I'd love to hear more, either here or in a PM.

As for learning to code, I am not entirely closed-off from the possibility.  I have built a few not-so-terrible-looking websites with my basic knowledge of HTML and CSS, but they have usually been long-term side-projects that move at such a glacial pace and involve so much trial and error that I have difficulty imagining that I might get paid at my current level of skill.  Obviously, building on these skills is not something to which I am opposed, but PoP's question then comes up:  How much training would it require to become good enough to earn well?  (I ask this somewhat rhetorically.)  In a more general sense, would it be a misconception for me to believe that one needs a computer-related degree in order to enter and excel in the software world?

Thanks again, folks!

[footenote]

Great question. Some mainline, big firms will require a computer science degree. However, there is so much demand that many firms do not, and lots of consultants I know have no CSci degree.

Real life examples: A very successful Ruby on Rails guy I know (he runs his own development shop employing several developers) was a college dropout. Another who has an undergrad in marketing and then did a couple of cheap community college years part time in web development is now "Principal Architect" at a well-funded startup.

With your HTML and CSS skills, you could work in web development and earn decently part time and take classes part time. (And if you learn well through MOOCs (not everyone does), you could learn virtually, too.)

Another route to employment in this area: post useful code to the community. Check out Jade Dominguez's story: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/28/technology/how-big-data-is-playing-recruiter-for-specialized-workers.html?pagewanted=all

[jrhampt]

If you can hack the winters, it's a lovely place to live. (I've lived in northern Ohio and Connecticut and the winters in Minnesota are, IMO, more pleasant. YMMV.)

Ahem.  I respectfully disagree.  CT winters are much better than MN winters.  MN is the only place I've been where I stepped outside in February and my hair froze.

[footenote]

jrhampt - I agree, it's definitely a matter of personal preference. The cold snaps are indeed sometimes cold enough that you can throw a cup of hot water into the air and watch it "snow" to the ground in frozen crystals.

However, I find the ratio of sunny-to-cloudy winter days very important. I much more easily tolerate a few days when the high is 10 degree F with a cloudless sky than a stretch of 30 degree F days with no sun. (Cleveland in particular is a very cloudy city in the winter.)

As I said, YMMV!

[Watchmaker]

If you're willing to consider moving out of the northeast, I'll add a vote for the upper midwest.  I live outside Madison and it's a great city with very good opportunities.  And I agree with everything said so far about the twin cities.  I'll throw in Milwaukee as an option as well.  I know it doesn't have a super reputation but I only recently got to know the city and I think it would be a great place to live.

[ch12]

I would have stayed in my hometown of Indianapolis if I could have found a job there. I didn't, though not for lack of trying, so I moved up to Wisconsin. I've so far been pleased with my decision, since I enjoy my work and the environment up here. I complain a bit about the Wisconsin taxes, though, since I realized that I pay more in taxes than a six-figure income producer in Canada with a decidedly not 6 figure income. Also, I feel like there are "now hiring" signs everywhere. There are certainly not "now hiring" signs at home. While it would be unlikely that I would get a retail job, it would be a fallback and it's certainly nice that the opportunity is there.

I've also found that the cost of living is moderately low in the Madison area. It's slightly above the national average and I've certainly faced a bit of sticker shock, since Bloomington (my college town) has a cost of living of 85% of the national average, but it's much, much better than NYC. I live on less per month than my buddy pays for just rent for half of a small-to-me apartment off of 192nd street.

[jrhampt]

jrhampt - I agree, it's definitely a matter of personal preference. The cold snaps are indeed sometimes cold enough that you can throw a cup of hot water into the air and watch it "snow" to the ground in frozen crystals.

Can you still call it a cold "snap" if it lasts for 3+ months, though?  I call that sustained misery.  I do like the twin cities, though.  Although MN can also have incredibly humid summers with giant mosquitos, as if the winters weren't bad enough.  They almost make up for it with the sweet corn, though.  Almost.

[rachael talcott]

Philosophy is a wonderful field, but teaching philosophy is hazardous to your financial health.  I've known too many brilliant people in philosophy (and history) who can't find teaching jobs to recommend that path. 

Have you checked out the recent posts on jobs that don't require a specialized degree?

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/08/05/50-jobs-over-50000-without-a-degree-part-2/

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/07/25/50-jobs-over-50000-without-a-degree-part-1/

[footenote]

jrhampt - I agree, it's definitely a matter of personal preference. The cold snaps are indeed sometimes cold enough that you can throw a cup of hot water into the air and watch it "snow" to the ground in frozen crystals.

Can you still call it a cold "snap" if it lasts for 3+ months, though?  I call that sustained misery.  I do like the twin cities, though.  Although MN can also have incredibly humid summers with giant mosquitos, as if the winters weren't bad enough.  They almost make up for it with the sweet corn, though.  Almost.

Philosopher - Here are the facts about Minnesota monthly temperatures: http://minnesota.stateguidesusa.com/answers-to-my-questions/what-are-the-average-monthly-temperatures-in-minnesota?/

When I say "a cold snap", I refer to a stretch of weather when the high doesn't get above 20 degrees F or so. Very rarely (call it once each winter, if at all) we do get a period with highs below 10. Also, being high up on the plains with no major nearby water body, summers are low humidity. (Especially compared to places like Florida.)

Having said all that, thanks to jrhampt for keeping the myths about Minnesota winters alive. Because we do like to "keep the pikers out."  ; )

[plantingourpennies]

PoP, your figures, and your assertion that an intelligent philosophy major can do so much better in B2B sales than I am doing in Catholic education, has certainly piqued my interest.  Admittedly, though, I know nothing about the field.  I'd love to hear more, either here or in a PM.

Just answered the PM. Don't want to threadjack, so if anybody else has questions about humanities majors making good money in sales, just ping me-I could talk about this stuff all day.

best,
Mr. PoP

[Hedge_87]

Speaking on a little bit of experience if your not afraid of getting your hands dirty trades are a great place to earn a good to excellent wage depending on your skill level and qualifications. I started out in high school during the summers working for an electrician in my home town which got me interested in electricity. After high school I went to a year of trade school (not really necesary but was a good time for me to go through the growing pains of becoming an adult). I had a job before I even graduated as an electrical lineman. After getting some credit for going to school and three years of an aprentiship I got my journeyman card. I also have my electrician licences which I use on the side to make some extra money (there is never a shortage of side jobs.  I end up turning down most because of time or if they are going to be a royal pita). I know every body is wired diferent (no pun intended) and I sure some people who read this think I am crazy but on the other side of the coin I couldn't imagine spending a whole working day in a seated position at a desk.

[PhilosopherBadass]

Thanks for the lively winter-weather debate.  As it turns out, winter has always been my favorite season, and I love cold, snow, and ice.  I doubt that that's the sort of thing that would keep me from moving anywhere.  A much bigger concern when it comes to the Midwest would be the distance from my family, but that would not necessarily be prohibitive either, if I were confident of a good life and good prospects for early retirement.

I am very curious about the software possibilities out there.  I am honestly quite surprised that someone with so little education and experience could get very far in that world.  I suppose I would have to bone up on some code, and learn some languages that I don't yet know.  Those are skills I wouldn't mind having, but it doesn't seem (anyone can correct me if I'm wrong) that people would be willing to fund the at-home learning process.

When it comes to the trades, the promise they hold of becoming skilled at something hands-on and useful is alluring.  The prospect of possibly taking a pay cut to be an apprentice, and of possibly not being good enough at the job to move forward, is scary.  Still, I imagine I could be very happy with myself if I spent my early retirement flipping investment properties as MMM appears to be doing more and more, all with his own hard work.

As for B2B sales, I'd like to thank Mr. PoP for his PMs, which have been very helpful, and which are motivating me to seriously consider putting my chips forward on that table.  I am surprised (and impressed) by the high earning potential for someone with a humanities degree.  Just imagine, if I were earning 100k+, living the same lifestyle as I am now (which is by no means uncomfortable), MMM's math seems to indicate that I could retire in under eight years!  Holy crap!!!  If I'm enjoying the work, perhaps I'll put in a few years beyond that moment of FI, and increase my lifestyle a bit.  It seems that this field is among the best available to me when it comes to earning potential, which is going to be the largest factor (at this point) in determining how quickly I can live life on my own terms.

Now, on a more practical note, I have set myself up a spreadsheet that complies the data about all the 50 states (and DC) provided by Blinx.  What I would like to do would be to combine each of those four measures (income, home prices, unemployment, and state/local tax rate) into a single figure, which might allow me to conveniently rank the states by their desirability.  Does anyone have any suggestions for combining these numbers into a single formula?

[PhilosopherBadass]

Philosophy is a wonderful field, but teaching philosophy is hazardous to your financial health.  I've known too many brilliant people in philosophy (and history) who can't find teaching jobs to recommend that path. 

Have you checked out the recent posts on jobs that don't require a specialized degree?

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/08/05/50-jobs-over-50000-without-a-degree-part-2/

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/07/25/50-jobs-over-50000-without-a-degree-part-1/

Rachel,

Yes, I have read those posts.  They contain some great ideas, which I may pursue.  Something that had me a bit concerned, though, was that the BLS seems to disagree with MMM about how much some of them actually tend to earn.  It might be the case that relying on national multi-year averages is ill-advised, of course.

As for Philosophy, what I have taken to telling people is that it's a great "second major."  I majored in it, with the intention of becoming a priest.  That plan hasn't worked out, and I was lucky to quickly find a teaching job.  You are right, though, that they are scarce and pay poorly enough that they should not be anyone's plan, at least not anyone who plans on early FI.  I don't know too many others whose only major was Philosophy.  Perhaps Mr. PoP is a good indication that it need not be a second major only.  If I end up getting into B2B sales and doing well, and find (as he does) that my Philosophy degree has actually been a help, then perhaps I will start telling people they can study the humanities and not have to worry, if they are willing to sell.

[senecando]

I work at a software company that is extremely happy to hire philosophy majors.

I work there too, and I have a philosophy-ish degree--another data point!

[jrhampt]

Regarding humanities degrees and accidental IT careers, I got into database development when I was getting an MA in English and rapidly started getting better paying job offers with just a little SQL knowledge from my experience as a grad assistant.  8 years later, I'm basically a SAS programmer, although I just went legit by finishing a stats masters.

[rachael talcott]

Yes, I have read those posts.  They contain some great ideas, which I may pursue.  Something that had me a bit concerned, though, was that the BLS seems to disagree with MMM about how much some of them actually tend to earn.  It might be the case that relying on national multi-year averages is ill-advised, of course.

I think part of the difference is that the BLS assumes that you would be employed as (say) an electrician, whereas MMM assumes that you would be a small business owner. It would take time to build up a business and get to $50K, but it's a lot more likely that you'd make good money working for yourself rather than someone else.

Also, you don't need to rely on national averages.  The BLS reports wages by state.   In some states the average wage for electricians is over $50K, for others it's far less.

 

[pbkmaine]

If you have good spreadsheet skills, there are many businesses that would hire you as an analyst. You just need to get to them, and by that I mean networking. A logical network for you would be your church. (If you still attend, that is. When some people leave the seminary, they "take a break" from church.) However you do it, you need to put yourself Ina place where you meet the kind of people who would hire you.

Do not worry about a house yet. You need a job and a place you love, first.

[LWYRUP]

Now, on a more practical note, I have set myself up a spreadsheet that complies the data about all the 50 states (and DC) provided by Blinx.  What I would like to do would be to combine each of those four measures (income, home prices, unemployment, and state/local tax rate) into a single figure, which might allow me to conveniently rank the states by their desirability.  Does anyone have any suggestions for combining these numbers into a single formula?

I would probably do 25% for each factor but I have no particular reason for that approach -- just seems easiest.  I would be curious to see your results when you do determine a formula though. 

[PhilosopherBadass]

I thought about doing 25% for each, but I think that that may be deceptively simple, for at least this basic reason:  Average annual income is a figure that you want to be as high as possible, whereas the others should all be as low as possible.  Add to that the fact that they are in vastly different orders of magnitude, and that, too, would seem that weigh against the 25% each approach.

Perhaps a good way forward is to take the medians for each of these measures, then put into the formula a given state's deviation from the median.  This should eliminate the orders of magnitude problem, as well as accounting for the fact that it's good for the income to be high, while good for the others to be low.  I will get cracking.

Rachel, you make a good point about the different assumptions behind the figures offered by the BLS and those proposed by MMM.  Indeed, I imagine it would take a while to develop the skill level to take something like carpentry to the realm of entrepreneurship, and perhaps that will be a great thing to do with my retirement, once I become FI.  Another fine point about looking into state averages, which does present a fairly wide disparity between different states.

On a general note, when it comes to a home purchase, I think my outside reading, mostly from JLCollins, has helped me understand that paying rent is not a waste of money in every case.  Indeed, there are times when it could be a better deal than owning a home (especially with a mortgage).  So, I will not rush into a home purchase.  I might be more cavalier about real estate investing if I had carpentry skills like MMM that would almost guarantee my ability to add value, and sometimes incredible amounts of value, to a house at a large profit.  This will have to be another hobby I develop in retirement....

[Spudd]

Now, on a more practical note, I have set myself up a spreadsheet that complies the data about all the 50 states (and DC) provided by Blinx.  What I would like to do would be to combine each of those four measures (income, home prices, unemployment, and state/local tax rate) into a single figure, which might allow me to conveniently rank the states by their desirability.  Does anyone have any suggestions for combining these numbers into a single formula?

I would add a column for ranking each factor, so you'd end up with 4 columns from 1-50 each. Then average those 4 columns and sort the result in ascending order (assuming lower number = best ranking). You can adjust the weighting of each if you think one thing weighs higher for you than another. Personally, I think I would weight unemployment quite highly especially since you're just starting out - if you move somewhere you want to have as good a shot at finding a job as possible!

[LWYRUP]

Simple may also be better because we need to keep in mind that there can be wide variations within a state (e.g., upstate NY vs. NYC, Houston vs. Texas panhandle).