Author Topic: The beatles Case Study  (Read 263286 times)

swick

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #700 on: January 15, 2017, 10:20:40 AM »
Latest blog article: Essay about startups and frugality

Also started a journal: Here it is


Journal =/= blog.  What you posted both places is "blog-y".  As in, you cut and pasted your blog to your journal.

Journal - needs a purpose, most of us use it to define our goals, ponder our progress, figure out what makes us tick.  The first 2 you are doing here, so your journal might be put to better use by reflecting on your life (pre and post marriage), defining influences on you and mrs. b, how you got where you are (psychologically) and how you are addressing those issues.  Actually, you are doing a little bit of that here too.

You don't really need a journal, you have this thread and the blog, and it is just  one more thing for you to tend (be distracted by).

I agree.

Only reason I did that is because a few people told me to. Not sure why.

Hey Beatles. I do see the value of you having a journal, it's really good for reflection and getting community feedback.

One thing I have noticed that I want to draw your attention to is you have said "Becuase x told me to"  as a reason and/or excuse for many things you have done. PanningTrips to Hawaii, declaring bankruptcy etc.

When you are getting so much feedback it is critical that you take in the information, really process it and figure out a plan of action that works best FOR YOU.

 Maybe you aren't sure but have narrowed something down to a couple of different options and you return for more feedback - that is great! Or maybe you need more information from people before you can weigh their suggestion. so dig deeper!

But you really need to go the extra step of acting from a place of "I am making this decision because of x,y,z and I feel this is the right decision for me and my family"

We can't all be right 100% of the time, but if you go through the process and can really defend to yourself and others why you are making the decision you are, going through the process will help you from making decisions that are not optimal.

horsepoor

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #701 on: January 15, 2017, 10:35:31 AM »
You mentioned being late on your mortgage.  Do you now have enough to pay it on time?

Prioritize that, keep maybe $500 cash until your >20% debts are gone, then consider upping your cash a bit.

Also will chime in on selling the car that has payments left.  You mentioned, IIRC, that you have a 20 mile commute and it's a large SUV?  Buy something under $5k that gets 40 mpg and save on insurance as well as gas.

Late to the party, but just read this whole thread and I'm glad you're sticking it out and turning things around!

RetiredAt63

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #702 on: January 15, 2017, 11:08:53 AM »
One thing I have noticed that I want to draw your attention to is you have said "Because x told me to"  as a reason and/or excuse for many things you have done. Planning Trips to Hawaii, declaring bankruptcy etc.

When you are getting so much feedback it is critical that you take in the information, really process it and figure out a plan of action that works best FOR YOU.

 Maybe you aren't sure but have narrowed something down to a couple of different options and you return for more feedback - that is great! Or maybe you need more information from people before you can weigh their suggestion. so dig deeper!

But you really need to go the extra step of acting from a place of "I am making this decision because of x,y,z and I feel this is the right decision for me and my family"

We can't all be right 100% of the time, but if you go through the process and can really defend to yourself and others why you are making the decision you are, going through the process will help you from making decisions that are not optimal.

Swick makes a good point.  If we tell you to do certain things, and someone else tells you to do other things, what do you do?  Listen to whoever got to you most recently?  That doesn't work.

Whether you do it here or in a journal, you and mrs. b need to sit down together, outline priorities (fun things can be in there too, just that the expensive ones go much much lower down on the list) and figure out how to reach them.  Then bounce your ideas off of us, we have all been through this and will see advantages and pitfalls.

Spreadsheets are good tools.  Put Zoot's CC analysis on one page, put your mortgage on another page, put your IRS stuff on another page, your household budget on another, until everything is there.  Then play what if with it.  What if we put this extra money here?  what happens?  Then instead, if we put the extra money there, what happens? Which outcome do we like better?  Which meets our stated priorities best?  Once your CC debt is paid off, play what if again - how much cash do we need for emergencies, versus how much credit we have available.  Which CCs should we cancel (the high interest ones basically) and which ones do we keep (the low interest ones).  We don't know which CC might be best for you to hold onto but you can look at them and decide.  But you need to develop your critical analysis mental muscles

But you have to do this your way for you, not our way for us.  Or you will get tired of all this and the wants will start taking precedence over the needs again.

The beatles

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #703 on: January 15, 2017, 04:11:27 PM »
You mentioned being late on your mortgage.  Do you now have enough to pay it on time?

Prioritize that, keep maybe $500 cash until your >20% debts are gone, then consider upping your cash a bit.

Also will chime in on selling the car that has payments left.  You mentioned, IIRC, that you have a 20 mile commute and it's a large SUV?  Buy something under $5k that gets 40 mpg and save on insurance as well as gas.

Late to the party, but just read this whole thread and I'm glad you're sticking it out and turning things around!

Yes, the 1250 is what will be left after I pay the mortgage and a couple other bills.

I get my bonus on friday.

Mulling over MDM's e-fund option too.

So many options. Ugh

The beatles

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #704 on: January 15, 2017, 04:13:42 PM »
I'm now questioning whether to just start attacking CC2.

The high balance and high interest rate is rough.

Here's the list of your credit cards from your first post in this thread:

CC1   194   856   25.24%
CC2   134   4495   24.49
CC3   25   505   23.24%
CC4   25   452   10.23%
CC5   20   692   18.49%
CC6   75   797   24.15
CC7    100   2020   25.24

In effect, you really have two groups of cards:  higher interest and lower interest.

HIGHER INTEREST (CC1, CC2, CC3, CC6, CC7)
Total debt = $8673
Total minimum payment = $528

LOWER INTEREST (CC4, CC5)
Total debt = $1144
Total minimum payment = $45

In addition to the minimum payments you are already making, you will have $600 from not buying work lunches. 

With these details, I'd do the following:
* STOP USING THE CARDS--you are on a cash-only diet right now, with all expenses being paid in cash or with a debit card (no, I don't care about points or miles--your goal is to get out of debt and establish good credit habits before learning credit ninja tactics like that)
* focus on the low-balance cards in the Higher Interest group

In this way, you get BOTH the psychological benefit of paying off an account in full, and the math benefit of paying down high interest debt first. (The small difference in the "higher interest" group cards isn't worth bothering with, especially when you'll be paying off the entire account in just a couple of months.)

Here's what I would do this month:
* Pay the minimum payment that you are already paying on your highest-interest card CC1 ($194) plus another $662 (get the extra $62 from grocery savings!)
      --this will completely wipe out $856 of high interest debt and give you a $0 balance on that card
* Pay the minimum payments on your other cards, as usual

In February, you will have an extra $194 that you are no longer paying to CC1.  Use this $194 and the $600 you freed up ($794) as follows:
* Pay the minimum payment that you are already paying on CC6 ($75), plus the $194 you were paying on CC1, plus an additional $528 to wipe out CC6
* Pay the minimum on your other cards, as usual

In March, you will have the $194 from CC1 plus the $75 from CC6 plus the $600 from not buying lunch ($869).  Do this:
* Use about $500 to pay off CC3
* Send the rest to CC7
* Pay the minimum on your other cards, as usual

In April, you will have $194 + $75 + $25 + $600 ($894).  Do this:
* Pay the $100 minimum on CC7, plus the $894
* This will get you awfully darn close to knocking out CC7--see if you can scrounge some money from somewhere else (grocery savings, selling stuff) to knock this one out this month

So by the end of April--in just four payment cycles--you can completely wipe out four of your seven cards.  :)

In May, your balances on CC4 and CC5 will be low enough that you can wipe them out with your $194 + $75 + $25 + $600 + $100 (from CC7, which you paid off in April).  Go ahead and knock both of these out, and send anything left to CC2.

Then in June, you can pay $194 + $75 + $25 + $600 + $100 + $25 + $20 = $1019, plus your usual minimum payment of $134 (total of $1153) to CC2.  Do it again in July.  Do it again in August.  Do it again in September.  Then in October, pay whatever's left.

Then you are DONE.

In just nine months, you can kill ALL OF THIS DEBT.  Now go do it!  :)



(edited for math, and to add that I am ignoring accrued interest and to an extent ignoring the effect of the minimum payments on the balances, just to make my post easier to tabulate)  :)

This does sound super satisfying.

I'm still trying to shake the feeling of September being far away :/

I wonder where property taxes falls in this.

The beatles

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #705 on: January 15, 2017, 04:20:42 PM »
Forgive me if this has already been addressed -- I think I read all 14 pages of this thread yesterday, but may have missed a few posts.

Have you considered trying to sign up for a 0% credit card deal and transferring some of the high interest card balances to that card?   Because those cards with high interest are really killing you.   Even if you have to pay a 3% balance transfer fee, if you can move that $4495 balance to a 0% card for a year, you will be paying $134.85 for the balance transfer, versus nearly $1123.75 in interest at that nearly 25% rate.   Granted, you are freeing up money to throw at that card by cutting your expenses and paying off the other cards, but it is the largest balance and one of the highest interest rates, so it seems like it might be worth it to pay the balance transfer fee up front and move that one down the list in your snowball.

Another thing that is not clear to me -- are you still using the credit cards to pay your monthly living expenses?  Because while it may make sense to do that if you pay off the balance every month and can benefit from the "float" as well as earning points, etc., if you are adding more to any of these cards every month you are essentially charging yourself up to 25% EXTRA on every single thing you buy because you are putting the charges on a card with a revolving balance.  NOT GOOD!!!!    If you don't have the cash to cover your monthly expenses via a debit card linked to your primary checking account, then my recommendation would be to put that $1000 you have into that account so you have a bit of a cushion.   And then save up an extra small emergency fund.   You guys need to STOP using the credit cards, because you clearly have trouble managing them, and your impulses.   Maybe knowing that the extra $50 on little bits of this and that at Target is going to mean there is not enough money in the checking account to buy milk next week will help your wife curb her urge to spend on stuff you don't really need.

Also, although it is dated I also recommend you try to find the complete Tightwad Gazette collection at the library, and have both of you read it.  Because the best thing that could happen to you guys at this stage is that you have a total switch and take all the time and energy you were spending on acquiring more stuff and throw that at becoming blackbelt frugalistas.   Amy D is the queen of frugalistas because, like MMM, she focused on the PROCESS of becoming a money saving machine.   If you can learn to adopt some of her approaches, you will become more creative problem solvers and save a ton of money at the same time.

We only use credit cards for toys right now.

Mainly the Best Buy credit card.

RetiredAt63

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #706 on: January 15, 2017, 04:28:13 PM »
Property taxes?  !!!

How much and due when?  You need to plan ahead for them.

This is why I recommended up top somewhere that you do multiple sheets in a spreadsheet.  You don't want to be doing nicely on the CCs and get blindsided by municipal taxes.

So how much and when - if you can pay them out of excess (now that you have excess) and just pay basics on the CCs one month, then fine - otherwise you need to be saving up so you are ready. If less goes to the CCs then less goes to the CCs.  You need the whole picture, not just bits and pieces.

We only see your bits and pieces, not the whole picture, so we cannot plan for you.  Only you (i.e. beatles and mrs. beatles) can do that.

Oh, and for the planning, take EVERTYHING that is not monthly, figure out yearly cost, and divide by 12 - you need to save that much every month to meet these expected but not monthly expenses - they are not unexpected, just not tidy.

PS just saw your last post We only use credit cards for toys right now.  Mainly the Best Buy credit card.  Well that means you aren't using any credit cards, because you aren't buying any toys right now, right?  Kids probably have more toys than they know what to do with, since Christmas is less than a month past.  You and mrs. don't need any more toys either.  That was easy.

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #707 on: January 15, 2017, 04:28:22 PM »


We only use credit cards for toys right now.

Mainly the Best Buy credit card.

Why are you using present tense here?  You know your kids literally don't need any toys, right?  Literally 0.  Don't worry though, since they already have toys, your kids will have more than 0 toys, without you buying any more.  Because you're not buying any more, right?  Right?!

The beatles

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #708 on: January 15, 2017, 04:50:01 PM »


We only use credit cards for toys right now.

Mainly the Best Buy credit card.

Why are you using present tense here?  You know your kids literally don't need any toys, right?  Literally 0.  Don't worry though, since they already have toys, your kids will have more than 0 toys, without you buying any more.  Because you're not buying any more, right?  Right?!

Right

The beatles

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #709 on: January 15, 2017, 04:51:56 PM »
Property taxes?  !!!

How much and due when?  You need to plan ahead for them.

This is why I recommended up top somewhere that you do multiple sheets in a spreadsheet.  You don't want to be doing nicely on the CCs and get blindsided by municipal taxes.

So how much and when - if you can pay them out of excess (now that you have excess) and just pay basics on the CCs one month, then fine - otherwise you need to be saving up so you are ready. If less goes to the CCs then less goes to the CCs.  You need the whole picture, not just bits and pieces.

We only see your bits and pieces, not the whole picture, so we cannot plan for you.  Only you (i.e. beatles and mrs. beatles) can do that.

Oh, and for the planning, take EVERTYHING that is not monthly, figure out yearly cost, and divide by 12 - you need to save that much every month to meet these expected but not monthly expenses - they are not unexpected, just not tidy.

PS just saw your last post We only use credit cards for toys right now.  Mainly the Best Buy credit card.  Well that means you aren't using any credit cards, because you aren't buying any toys right now, right?  Kids probably have more toys than they know what to do with, since Christmas is less than a month past.  You and mrs. don't need any more toys either.  That was easy.

Yes, property taxes.

We are 2 years behind and owe 9k.

We also have this years taxes which will be due in March at about 4K.

RetiredAt63

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #710 on: January 15, 2017, 05:14:49 PM »

Yes, property taxes.

We are 2 years behind and owe 9k.

We also have this years taxes which will be due in March at about 4K.

Ouch.  Ouch.  Ouch.  Where I live if you are 3 years behind on property taxes the municipality can seize the house and sell it for back taxes.  If you lived here you would be less than a year away from losing your house.  What are the rules where you live?  This and your IRS situation are a lot more hair-on-fire emergency that the CCs (not that they are good, not just as horrible).

So you need 9K in 2 months.  And for 2017, can you spread them out (most municipalities allow 2 or 3 payments over the year)?  A lot of people don't like adding taxes to their mortgage payment, but it does help the planning if you pay principal, interest and taxes every month and the bank pays your taxes out of that.  Given everything, I am surprised your bank didn't insist on that for your mortgage.

You need to talk to the people at your local municipal tax office.  Or maybe the CPA who is helping with the IRS does municipal tax problems too?

You do realize these two expensive houses have helped you dig your financial hole, right?   Was your original house (now the rental) that bad?  It is hard to enjoy life (the enjoy life means not be stressed out by being 2 years overdue on taxes) when you are house-poor.  Is your present house truly bringing you huge amounts of pleasure and joy?  Or was it bought to keep up with the Jones/what was expected at your stage of life and income?

horsepoor

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #711 on: January 15, 2017, 05:19:54 PM »
Dude.  Revisit what I said about the more efficient car, but now it needs to be like 2k at most. If it breaks down, you take your wife's car. 

I didn't catch the cash flow situation on the rental, but ithe sounds like mortgage is more than rent.  It might make sense at this point to sell both properties and rent if rents tend to be less than PITI on a house.  Plus, you don't have to worry about major house repairs, which you are in no position to deal with at this point.

GetSmart

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #712 on: January 15, 2017, 05:24:47 PM »
Quote
Rental Income, Actual Expenses, and Depreciation:  $595 NET ($1,100 rent - $130 HELOC - $375 taxes)

At this point all income from the rental should go directly to the back taxes owed.  Don't even consider this as income or let it into your hands.  Plus if you are taking 375 / month from the rent for taxes and they are due in March - do you not already have it kept aside ? 

You should probably just pay it on a monthly basis instead of quarterly - I'm sure you can arrange something with the local tax office.

The beatles

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #713 on: January 15, 2017, 05:43:53 PM »

Yes, property taxes.

We are 2 years behind and owe 9k.

We also have this years taxes which will be due in March at about 4K.

Ouch.  Ouch.  Ouch.  Where I live if you are 3 years behind on property taxes the municipality can seize the house and sell it for back taxes.  If you lived here you would be less than a year away from losing your house.  What are the rules where you live?  This and your IRS situation are a lot more hair-on-fire emergency that the CCs (not that they are good, not just as horrible).

So you need 9K in 2 months.  And for 2017, can you spread them out (most municipalities allow 2 or 3 payments over the year)?  A lot of people don't like adding taxes to their mortgage payment, but it does help the planning if you pay principal, interest and taxes every month and the bank pays your taxes out of that.  Given everything, I am surprised your bank didn't insist on that for your mortgage.

You need to talk to the people at your local municipal tax office.  Or maybe the CPA who is helping with the IRS does municipal tax problems too?

You do realize these two expensive houses have helped you dig your financial hole, right?   Was your original house (now the rental) that bad?  It is hard to enjoy life (the enjoy life means not be stressed out by being 2 years overdue on taxes) when you are house-poor.  Is your present house truly bringing you huge amounts of pleasure and joy?  Or was it bought to keep up with the Jones/what was expected at your stage of life and income?

Where we live, the town sells unpaid tax liens to a 3rd party collection agency.

We asked the collection agency if they could take the house and they said yes, but probably won't because we don't owe a lot.

They said we could put 10% down and pay monthly as well.

Quidnon?

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #714 on: January 15, 2017, 05:45:38 PM »

Where we live, the town sells unpaid tax liens to a 3rd party collection agency.

We asked the collection agency if they could take the house and they said yes, but probably won't because we don't owe a lot.

They said we could put 10% down and pay monthly as well.

Do this, yes.  This is more important than your credit cards, in my opinion, and only a bit less important than paying mortgage current.

The beatles

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #715 on: January 15, 2017, 07:06:57 PM »
I was wrong.

It's 3 years, not 2.

Ugh.


Zoot

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #716 on: January 15, 2017, 07:17:32 PM »
I agree with other posters that the CC's have to take a back seat to the property tax issue.  You could lose the house over this.

I think at this point it would be good to go back to the numbers you posted in your original case study and go over them with a fine tooth comb to see if there is ANYTHING you left out:  any income, any debt, anything.

The recommendations this group can make need to be based on a COMPREHENSIVE picture of your financial situation.  Had the people in this thread known about the property tax issue, the recommendations would likely have been vastly different.

As for September being a long time away, it's actually a very short time when considering how long some others have taken to climb their way out of CC debt (measured in years, not months).  In that sense you are lucky that you haven't saddled yourself with as much CC debt as some others.

But the property taxes need to come first.  As part of your get-current strategy, look in to having an escrow feature on your mortgage whereby you pay the mortgage company and they pay your property taxes for you.  Then you will not have to worry about this in the future.

But seriously:  go revise your case study to add the $9K of property tax debt, and anything, anything, anything else that's "out there."  Our recommendations may actively be harmful if we don't have the full story.

meandmyfamily

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #717 on: January 15, 2017, 07:20:29 PM »
Can you get a side job like now?  Maybe your wife can do daycare?  That is really scary.

The beatles

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #718 on: January 15, 2017, 07:25:12 PM »
I agree with other posters that the CC's have to take a back seat to the property tax issue.  You could lose the house over this.

I think at this point it would be good to go back to the numbers you posted in your original case study and go over them with a fine tooth comb to see if there is ANYTHING you left out:  any income, any debt, anything.

The recommendations this group can make need to be based on a COMPREHENSIVE picture of your financial situation.  Had the people in this thread known about the property tax issue, the recommendations would likely have been vastly different.

As for September being a long time away, it's actually a very short time when considering how long some others have taken to climb their way out of CC debt (measured in years, not months).  In that sense you are lucky that you haven't saddled yourself with as much CC debt as some others.

But the property taxes need to come first.  As part of your get-current strategy, look in to having an escrow feature on your mortgage whereby you pay the mortgage company and they pay your property taxes for you.  Then you will not have to worry about this in the future.

But seriously:  go revise your case study to add the $9K of property tax debt, and anything, anything, anything else that's "out there."  Our recommendations may actively be harmful if we don't have the full story.

The property tax has been on the case study since the beginning.

I don't know why people are just noticing it!?!

katscratch

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #719 on: January 15, 2017, 07:25:51 PM »
beatles did include the delinquent property tax as well as income tax in his first post, and the case study. 

Zoot

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #720 on: January 15, 2017, 07:30:36 PM »
The property tax has been on the case study since the beginning.

I don't know why people are just noticing it!?!

My apologies for the oversight--I do see it's on there in the liabilities section at the bottom.

What was missing was the word delinquent and the time frame of three years.  Owing property taxes is one thing--any homeowner has a property tax bill.  Owing delinquent property taxes for three years is quite another.  Those details are important in considering the overall strategy of righting the ship.  Paying off CC's is rearranging deck chairs when you have a gaping hole in the hull.

The beatles

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #721 on: January 15, 2017, 08:02:43 PM »
The property tax has been on the case study since the beginning.

I don't know why people are just noticing it!?!

My apologies for the oversight--I do see it's on there in the liabilities section at the bottom.

What was missing was the word delinquent and the time frame of three years.  Owing property taxes is one thing--any homeowner has a property tax bill.  Owing delinquent property taxes for three years is quite another.  Those details are important in considering the overall strategy of righting the ship.  Paying off CC's is rearranging deck chairs when you have a gaping hole in the hull.

I'm going to call tomorrow and see how much it'll cost to start the payment plan.

GetSmart

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #722 on: January 15, 2017, 08:06:07 PM »
And if that is your actual past due bill the total is $11,398 delinquent and another $3800 due in March ?

You should update your original case study numbers.  You don't seem to be in much of a panic for being $125k + in the red.

Is there some reason you can't send what's left of the rent check each month to this debt ?

Zoot

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #723 on: January 15, 2017, 08:07:56 PM »
I was wrong.

It's 3 years, not 2.

Ugh.

The photo shows that your current delinquent tax amount is $11,398.06 for the rental.

The additional taxes for March will take you to $15,204.32 in tax liability for the rental. 

I'd suggest modifying the amount in the case study data to reflect these numbers.

Also, any issues with property taxes on your primary dwelling?  Are you current on those (presumably via an escrow payment on your current mortgage, whereby the lien holder pays the property tax bill for you)?

Zoot

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #724 on: January 15, 2017, 08:11:19 PM »
I'm going to call tomorrow and see how much it'll cost to start the payment plan.

Excellent--you are now facing the situation head-on, and can with any luck prevent them from seizing the property.

Let us know what the monthly payment on that agreement ends up being, and what the interest is, and then we can collectively add that to the list of monthly minimum payments  with the CC's, and work out a payment strategy.


the_fella

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #725 on: January 15, 2017, 08:15:22 PM »
I came here thinking this had to do with The Beatles. Was disappointed. :/

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #726 on: January 15, 2017, 08:19:25 PM »
With so many moving pieces in your finances, I think you guys need to be planning out in advance what your cash will look like every day.  If you don't already have something that works for you (like YNAB?), try this.

Linked is a spreadsheet that (I hope) will help you do that.  You can download a copy to your computer to edit or save a copy to your Google account.  You fill in the current date and your checking balance.  You fill in the average amounts of your expenses (gas, groceries, etc.) in the yellow cells in Row 5 and whether you expect to pay them regularly on a day of the week (Monday, Wednesday, etc.) or on a date each month (15, 23, 4) in the yellow cells in Row 6.  You will get a drop-down list for your selection because otherwise a typo would cause issues.  Spare columns for other regular expenses are off to the far right.  This setup should make it pretty quick to change the month days (I just put in random ones to show you how it works) for the monthly expenses and the days of the week for the weekly expenses.  Column K "Big Expenses Coming Up!" is for those odd expenses that don't get paid weekly or monthly, such as property taxes.  There is also a column for odd cash inflow amounts, such as a bonus or an income tax refund.

I have filled out what we know of your income and expenses from your case study, with a few adjustments (such as assuming that you are cutting grocery spending to $125/month, not eating restaurant food, etc.), but you can change the numbers as necessary.  I have assumed that you get paid twice a month.  If you have already cut cable, fix the cable number, etc.  I have filled in the $4K of upcoming property tax for mid-March, but please correct this to be the right date and amount.  I have filled in $5.83 for the bonus coming up on Friday, but please correct this to the actual net check you will receive.  Add in any other regular or odd cash amounts, both inflow and outflow, that you and your wife can think of, along with any planned debt payments that won't be on a regular schedule.  Again, I just put in numbers and dates/days to test that this spreadsheet was working.  Assume that they are all wrong until you have checked them yourself.

My thought was that this would just be for estimating whether you would have an okay checking balance at every date for the next year.  (I have set the minimum checking balance as $300, but you can alter that by changing the "300" in the formula of cell D7 to your dollar amount of choice.)  I think that every week or so it would make sense to come back to this sheet, go to the balance on the date you look at the sheet, change the cell color to yellow, and type in the actual balance for that date in the "predicted checking" balance column.  That way you can keep going forward and you won't need to worry about moving the big expense numbers  or changing past expenses to match what was actually spent (for when you spend less than the amount you budgeted on groceries, for example  :)   ).

To add more rows at the bottom, copy the last row, highlight 365 or so more rows below it, and paste.  If you have questions about how the formulae work, just ask.

You won't be able to choose any date later than 28 for regular payments.  Why?  Because this is a quick-and-dirty spreadsheet, and right now months like February would just end up with no payments for anything given a date like that.  So, I have just added a "Later" option.  Any payment/income given this option will pop up on the last date of the month.

Disclosure:  This is a quick-and-dirty planning tool.  The results are only as good as your input.  It probably has errors.  Please make sure the results make sense.  I am not liable for your reliance on this spreadsheet.

The beatles

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #727 on: January 15, 2017, 08:51:22 PM »
And if that is your actual past due bill the total is $11,398 delinquent and another $3800 due in March ?

You should update your original case study numbers.  You don't seem to be in much of a panic for being $125k + in the red.

Is there some reason you can't send what's left of the rent check each month to this debt ?

Mainly because we've been using it all for Bills and expenses.

former player

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #728 on: January 16, 2017, 01:42:00 AM »
Finding out what you need for a payment plan on the rental taxes is the next step, so good on you for getting to that.

For a journal on this site you could ask the mods to move this thread over to the journal section - it would give you a bit more privacy, as only registered forum members will be seeing it, and it makes more sense to have the whole of your story so far as the start of the journal.  You can then just put a link to your blog in your signature.

I am in awe of your ability to keep coming back and taking the face punches - not many people stick it out here the way you have.  It's a good sign that you are going to work your way out of your problems.

Zoot

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #729 on: January 16, 2017, 05:02:39 AM »
I'm still trying to shake the feeling of September being far away :/

I'll be revising my payment plan advice once I see the details about your property tax repayment structure, but just wanted to add a suggestion.

Use the frustration about date of ending your debt being "far away" to spur you to reduce your spending further.

See something you want to buy?  Utter the word "September" and walk away.  :)

In that way, you have more money at the end of the month to throw at the debt, and "September" could become "August" or "July" or whatever it ends up being.

In the words of Dave Ramsey, get "gazelle intense":  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S1oHz99ZcU





ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #730 on: January 16, 2017, 05:58:09 AM »
Get on a payment plan, then sell the rental. The balance will be paid off at closing and you'll be out from under that.

But on no payment plan -well, in my county your property would have been put up for sale already.

Malum Prohibitum

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #731 on: January 16, 2017, 08:08:32 AM »
I was wrong.

It's 3 years, not 2.

Ugh.
In my jurisdiction, they sell a tax lien, and the purchaser can foreclose on the property in 12 months if it is not paid in full with a high interest rate.  In other words, they auction off your house on the courthouse steps.  You need to do some research on the effect that this tax sale has had on your property.

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/real-estate/buying-a-home-in-a-tax-lien-sale-1.aspx




The lender normally will pay the tax to keep this from happening, because they can sell it right out from under the mortgage.  Then the lender comes back to you and escrows the money, making you pay higher payments to pay off the existing tax debt and the expected taxes owed for the next year, plus a cushion.  Banks love doing this because they make their money on investing the surplus from these escrow accounts.

I have no clue why this has not happened in your situation.

You do not pay PITI (I thought you said you did?).  The TI in PITI stands for taxes and insurance, and the bank adjusts the amount to collect all expected debts.

I do not pay TI, just PI, but the bank will add on TI in a heartbeat to protect its interests if I failed to pay the taxes even once.  Why has this not happened?

Something is off in your story here.  What are we missing?

GetSmart

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #732 on: January 16, 2017, 09:00:26 AM »
Quote
Mainly because we've been using it all for Bills and expenses.

Um...nope.  You used it for toys and over-priced junk food:

Quote
GROCERIES   1100   
EATING OUT   600   
CAMERAS   25
CC7 (STORE CARDS)   100   2020   25.24
Furniture Loan   276   1950   25.00

The taxes are a bill and #1 priority - unless you really want to lose the whole thing to foreclosure.

Put all the income from the rental toward the taxes on the rental and the HELOC.

Pay your bills first and then if there's anything left.... buy some real food - but not before you eat everything that's already in the house :)

Quote
I do not pay TI, just PI, but the bank will add on TI in a heartbeat to protect its interests if I failed to pay the taxes even once.  Why has this not happened?

Something is off in your story here.  What are we missing?

Malum Prohibitum - I think you are confusing the two houses.  The rental has no mortgage; therefore the taxes and insurance are the responsibility of the owner.  The house they are living in has a mortgage.

Zoot

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #733 on: January 16, 2017, 09:04:14 AM »
In this situation, in order to get the taxes paid and the debt under the OP's control, would a HELOC against the rental property for $15K be an option?

That would take care of the delinquent taxes, and pay the March bill, at some kind of (I hope) reasonable interest rate.

Not sure a HELOC could be issued with the credit and DTI ratios in this situation, but wanted to bring it up.

GetSmart

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #734 on: January 16, 2017, 09:27:16 AM »
In this situation, in order to get the taxes paid and the debt under the OP's control, would a HELOC against the rental property for $15K be an option?

OP already has a HELOC against this property for 25k.

Zoot

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #735 on: January 16, 2017, 09:36:23 AM »
Dang it, I missed that detail.  :)  Gonna have to go read the case study again very closely.

RetiredAt63

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #736 on: January 16, 2017, 09:38:32 AM »
If the delinquent taxes are for the rental, then it is not really an income-generating property.  Then there is no reason to keep it, it should be sold and whatever equity is in it recovered for debt payments (like the back taxes on it and the IRS, OMG).

I am looking back at the original post and there was this:
Rental Income, Actual Expenses, and Depreciation:  $595 NET ($1,100 rent - $130 HELOC - $375 taxes)
I think this is why we got confused about taxes, the taxes were showing and we assumed that $375/month ($4500/year seems to be enough to pay them) was being set aside or going right way to pay the taxes.  It also has a HELOC on it already so unless it still has room ($25,000 now, this would mean it needs a limit of $40,000) they can't use the HELOC for the back taxes and then pay the HELOC off.

Alternately the newer house (house #3?) seems to be expensive, a pile of new furniture, etc., so maybe the new house should be sold and the family moves back to the original house?  We don't really know how the family finances were before houses #2 and 3, maybe the beatles were doing OK while they were in the rental house?  We also have no idea why they thought it would be a good idea to move from the rental (their home) to house #2 that ended up being too expensive, or why they moved to house #3 when #2 was too expensive, instead of moving back to house #1.

Beatles, get to it!  You have lots of work to do!

notactiveanymore

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #737 on: January 16, 2017, 09:42:49 AM »
Get on a payment plan, then sell the rental. The balance will be paid off at closing and you'll be out from under that.

But on no payment plan -well, in my county your property would have been put up for sale already.

Saying it again, possibly for my third time: Sell the car! Sell the car! Sell the car!

I also continue to believe you should sell the rental with a closing credit for the roof. In your online postings you can put that at the top of the info (CLOSING CREDIT FOR NEW ROOF) and that should mitigate any loss of potential buyers who are not willing to look at a house because of a roof. You cannot afford to buy a new roof for that house with the amount of debt you have and the paycheck to paycheck nature of your current life. Sure you may miss out on a potential of 5-10k in additional profit from the sale if it already had a new roof, but the value of eliminating your property tax and IRS delinquent bills would be worth it to me. Until then you are suffocating. You can barely decide which debt to tackle because so many of them are on fire.

The other solution is to sell your current house and move back to the rental. You want it sooner then September, make it happen!

ETA: Your wife is making a lot of difficult changes and improvements right now. Imagine how much it would mean to her that you are willing to sacrifice and prove your seriousness as well by selling your fancy car and buying a decent 4-5k vehicle in order to pay off the property taxes.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 09:46:37 AM by theotherelise »

RetiredAt63

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #738 on: January 16, 2017, 10:44:51 AM »
I went and read your second blog post.  This was interesting: I will have to find a user base willing to give me honest and direct feedback.  I started to wonder if that was us here on the Forums, you have already experienced the direct feedback part.  Then I read this: What I can tell you is that the website streamlines the way consumers shop for a particular high priced item. and that is certainly not someone people here would be interested in.

So why in the world are you spending time/energy on this start-up idea when you have so much else on your plate?  If it is a good idea it will still be good in October.

Priorities.  Priorities. Geesh. It's like you are weeding one dandelion out of your lawn while the giant hogweed looms. 

The beatles

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #739 on: January 16, 2017, 12:56:28 PM »
I went and read your second blog post.  This was interesting: I will have to find a user base willing to give me honest and direct feedback.  I started to wonder if that was us here on the Forums, you have already experienced the direct feedback part.  Then I read this: What I can tell you is that the website streamlines the way consumers shop for a particular high priced item. and that is certainly not someone people here would be interested in.

So why in the world are you spending time/energy on this start-up idea when you have so much else on your plate?  If it is a good idea it will still be good in October.

Priorities.  Priorities. Geesh. It's like you are weeding one dandelion out of your lawn while the giant hogweed looms.

Mainly because it's a project I started before I ever learned about frugality.

The beatles

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #740 on: January 16, 2017, 12:59:09 PM »
I was wrong.

It's 3 years, not 2.

Ugh.
In my jurisdiction, they sell a tax lien, and the purchaser can foreclose on the property in 12 months if it is not paid in full with a high interest rate.  In other words, they auction off your house on the courthouse steps.  You need to do some research on the effect that this tax sale has had on your property.

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/real-estate/buying-a-home-in-a-tax-lien-sale-1.aspx




The lender normally will pay the tax to keep this from happening, because they can sell it right out from under the mortgage.  Then the lender comes back to you and escrows the money, making you pay higher payments to pay off the existing tax debt and the expected taxes owed for the next year, plus a cushion.  Banks love doing this because they make their money on investing the surplus from these escrow accounts.

I have no clue why this has not happened in your situation.

You do not pay PITI (I thought you said you did?).  The TI in PITI stands for taxes and insurance, and the bank adjusts the amount to collect all expected debts.

I do not pay TI, just PI, but the bank will add on TI in a heartbeat to protect its interests if I failed to pay the taxes even once.  Why has this not happened?

Something is off in your story here.  What are we missing?

It's different where we are.

Our taxes are sold to a 3rd party collector, who if i'm not mistaken, is owned by the County.

RetiredAt63

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #741 on: January 16, 2017, 01:07:17 PM »
I went and read your second blog post.  This was interesting: I will have to find a user base willing to give me honest and direct feedback.  I started to wonder if that was us here on the Forums, you have already experienced the direct feedback part.  Then I read this: What I can tell you is that the website streamlines the way consumers shop for a particular high priced item. and that is certainly not someone people here would be interested in.

So why in the world are you spending time/energy on this start-up idea when you have so much else on your plate?  If it is a good idea it will still be good in October.

Priorities.  Priorities. Geesh. It's like you are weeding one dandelion out of your lawn while the giant hogweed looms.

Mainly because it's a project I started before I ever learned about frugality.

You may have started it before frugality, but why are you posting about it now?  Looking at your present (dire) financial situation, it should be last on your time/energy scale*.  So why post?  Why even have a blog if that is what it is going to be about?  Get back to it when you have your financial situation taken care of.

*Time energy scale:
1a do everything you can to take care of IRS, municipal taxes and CCs
1b Do everything you can to support mrs b while she does her side of things.
.
.
sell rental house or sell present house and move back into rental
.
.
72z the blog and project

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #742 on: January 16, 2017, 01:11:39 PM »
What county do you live in? This can be researched on a county's website usually.

The beatles

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #743 on: January 16, 2017, 01:48:21 PM »
I went and read your second blog post.  This was interesting: I will have to find a user base willing to give me honest and direct feedback.  I started to wonder if that was us here on the Forums, you have already experienced the direct feedback part.  Then I read this: What I can tell you is that the website streamlines the way consumers shop for a particular high priced item. and that is certainly not someone people here would be interested in.

So why in the world are you spending time/energy on this start-up idea when you have so much else on your plate?  If it is a good idea it will still be good in October.

Priorities.  Priorities. Geesh. It's like you are weeding one dandelion out of your lawn while the giant hogweed looms.

Mainly because it's a project I started before I ever learned about frugality.

You may have started it before frugality, but why are you posting about it now?  Looking at your present (dire) financial situation, it should be last on your time/energy scale*.  So why post?  Why even have a blog if that is what it is going to be about?  Get back to it when you have your financial situation taken care of.

*Time energy scale:
1a do everything you can to take care of IRS, municipal taxes and CCs
1b Do everything you can to support mrs b while she does her side of things.
.
.
sell rental house or sell present house and move back into rental
.
.
72z the blog and project

Because writing is my outlet.

Before the blog I would write and save it in word documents on my computer.

It takes 20 minutes.

I'm not sitting here spending hours of my time that I would otherwise be spending paying off debt.

RetiredAt63

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #744 on: January 16, 2017, 02:07:35 PM »

You may have started it before frugality, but why are you posting about it now?  Looking at your present (dire) financial situation, it should be last on your time/energy scale*.  So why post?  Why even have a blog if that is what it is going to be about?  Get back to it when you have your financial situation taken care of.

*Time energy scale:
1a do everything you can to take care of IRS, municipal taxes and CCs
1b Do everything you can to support mrs b while she does her side of things.
.
.
sell rental house or sell present house and move back into rental
.
.
72z the blog and project

Because writing is my outlet.

Before the blog I would write and save it in word documents on my computer.

It takes 20 minutes.

I'm not sitting here spending hours of my time that I would otherwise be spending paying off debt.

It's not the paying off debt that takes all the time, it is the figuring out how you got in this mess and how you will get out of it that takes time.  Your parents bailed you out before, but that was obviously a band-aid solution.  So if you want to spend 20 minutes a day writing, then spend it writing about your life, your growing up and how that affected your attitudes to money and debt, how you ended up moving out of house 1 to house 2 to house 3, etc.  Use it for self-reflection.  You don't need to show ti to anyone, except maybe mrs. b.

And you missed my point, anyway - you can write on a blog or wherever, but why are  you taking about a project or startup or side hustle or whatever - that is what is distracting you.

Use that project energy to do your detailed spreadsheet with projections.   You even got handed one. You don't seem to have a good grip yet on your total financial picture.  Or at least that is the impression you are giving us, we get dribs and drabs.

Hey its Monday - little things, what happened at work for lunch today?

The beatles

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #745 on: January 16, 2017, 02:13:12 PM »
What county do you live in? This can be researched on a county's website usually.

The rental is technically in Monroe County, NY

The beatles

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #746 on: January 16, 2017, 02:54:23 PM »

You may have started it before frugality, but why are you posting about it now?  Looking at your present (dire) financial situation, it should be last on your time/energy scale*.  So why post?  Why even have a blog if that is what it is going to be about?  Get back to it when you have your financial situation taken care of.

*Time energy scale:
1a do everything you can to take care of IRS, municipal taxes and CCs
1b Do everything you can to support mrs b while she does her side of things.
.
.
sell rental house or sell present house and move back into rental
.
.
72z the blog and project

Because writing is my outlet.

Before the blog I would write and save it in word documents on my computer.

It takes 20 minutes.

I'm not sitting here spending hours of my time that I would otherwise be spending paying off debt.

It's not the paying off debt that takes all the time, it is the figuring out how you got in this mess and how you will get out of it that takes time.  Your parents bailed you out before, but that was obviously a band-aid solution.  So if you want to spend 20 minutes a day writing, then spend it writing about your life, your growing up and how that affected your attitudes to money and debt, how you ended up moving out of house 1 to house 2 to house 3, etc.  Use it for self-reflection.  You don't need to show ti to anyone, except maybe mrs. b.

And you missed my point, anyway - you can write on a blog or wherever, but why are  you taking about a project or startup or side hustle or whatever - that is what is distracting you.

Use that project energy to do your detailed spreadsheet with projections.   You even got handed one. You don't seem to have a good grip yet on your total financial picture.  Or at least that is the impression you are giving us, we get dribs and drabs.

Hey its Monday - little things, what happened at work for lunch today?

Been eating bag lunches.

Random stuff out of the pantry.

This is too much right now.

People dont always want to be thinking about their finances. Blogging about my startup is a way to relax for a bit.

Poundwise

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #747 on: January 16, 2017, 03:05:01 PM »
I don't think it's so bad to be working on a little side gig, if it relaxes you.  But I would agree with recent posters that selling off some troublesome possessions is the way to go. Get rid of the stressful rental and big car loan.  Simplify. They add nothing but worry to your life, let them go.

mustachepungoeshere

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #748 on: January 16, 2017, 03:06:38 PM »
People dont always want to be thinking about their finances.

People on here do.

For most of us, it is instinctive, automatic, and welcome, rather than being a chore.

Bracken_Joy

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Re: The beatles Case Study
« Reply #749 on: January 16, 2017, 03:10:08 PM »
People dont always want to be thinking about their finances.

We're scared for you. You're dealing with some major debts here, and are majorly delinquent on them. You won't have the privilege to *not* think about your finances all the time if you lose your home. We just want to help you avoid that. I think Retired@63 is seeing you being fairly unconcerned about the property tax thing ("that's not how it works in my county"), and is worried about anything that will pull your attention away.

It's not to say you have to be staring at a spreadsheet every minute of every day. But fundamentally, you don't have an income problem, you have a spending problem, so it's easy as a 'spectator' to see you looking at side hustles and get worried.