Author Topic: Taking A Leap - (But Not FIREd - getting out 4 years earlier than planned)  (Read 2921 times)

Albatross

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I'm on the verge of taking a leap into the unknown. FIREing 4 years earlier than I thought I would (I suppose BaristaFire of some sort?):

 - 33/M, DW is 31.

 - FIRE stash = $1.2m (55% S&P500, 45% Asian markets);

 - Savings for house = $300k (cash and some utility stocks with 5-6% divis).

In Biglaw in VHCOL. Can't stand it. Will be moving to a new country with an easier pace of life and try out a new career / skill. Maybe a trade like carpentry or plumbing, or game development.

DW may switch to part time in her field. She's on board with FIRE concepts and both aren't spendypants.

FIRE stash, if we do not touch the principal for the time being, will yield about $24,000 a year (@ 2%) to cover very basic expenses, and our continued part time work / new career(s) will bring in the extra dough for luxuries (private school / tuition for kids if needed one day?) and any excess to further invest. When and if we fully fire, we can start drawing down on principal as well (say overall 3%) which should cover our expenses fully. I will probably start a passion project business anyway which should bring in a small income for fun, and which I hope to work on til I die.

Our annual combined income is about $260k. We plan to pull the plug in one year's time, which will bring us an additional $150k in savings for a house (taking us to $450k).

Only problem is I think a comfortable home in a nice area will cost at least $800k. The delta with my future 'home savings' of $450k is therefore $350k. Detail - family willing to lend us the difference with no interest and flexible repayment.

But ultimately it will take my wife and I many years of 'BaristaFire' or coasting with part time jobs / manual labour to pay back $350k, not least having to pay for things like paying for future kids' education etc.

I had originally planned to work in Biglaw for at least 5 more years to earn enough for a nice house plus luxuries like private school, but given my state of mental health, I don't know if I can even manage another year.

Do you think we are crazy? Would you take the leap, dump the huge salaries and find something happier to do for a living (and a more peaceful way of life)?

« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 01:10:41 AM by Albatross »

dadbod

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Hi Albatross!  I've been there - big law stress looking for any exit.  In my fourth year I almost took a job that would have been an 84% pay cut.  So I don't think you are crazy.  And you have been very successful getting to where you are now!  Congrats.  That said you've got a lot going on here.  Possible kids?  800k house?  new country?  barista fire job?  I get anxious just thinking about it all. 

I'm sure you will get good advice from many of the full on Mustachians here.  I'm kind of MMM lite (or possibly an interloper) because I am definitely more conservative in making changes.  Could you transition into an in-house or non-profit position, possibly with a presence in the country you want to move to?  Could you move to the new country but rent for a few years before buying?  Could you have kids but then have you or your wife continue working? 

Making major life decisions when in a less than healthy mental state is hard.  And remember they won't fire you immediately so stop billing crazy hours!

Good luck!

soily

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I'm on the verge of taking a leap into the unknown. FIREing 4 years earlier than I thought I would (I suppose BaristaFire of some sort?):

 - 33/M, DW is 31.

 - FIRE stash = $1.2m (55% S&P500, 45% Asian markets);

 - Savings for house = $300k (cash and some utility stocks with 5-6% divis).

In Biglaw in VHCOL. Can't stand it. Will be moving to a new country with an easier pace of life and try out a new career / skill. Maybe a trade like carpentry or plumbing, or game development.

DW may switch to part time in her field. She's on board with FIRE concepts and both aren't spendypants.

FIRE stash, if we do not touch the principal for the time being, will yield about $24,000 a year (@ 2%) to cover very basic expenses, and our continued part time work / new career(s) will bring in the extra dough for luxuries (private school / tuition for kids if needed one day?) and any excess to further invest. When and if we fully fire, we can start drawing down on principal as well (say overall 3%) which should cover our expenses fully. I will probably start a passion project business anyway which should bring in a small income for fun, and which I hope to work on til I die.

Our annual combined income is about $260k. We plan to pull the plug in one year's time, which will bring us an additional $150k in savings for a house (taking us to $450k).

Only problem is I think a comfortable home in a nice area will cost at least $800k. The delta with my future 'home savings' of $450k is therefore $350k. Detail - family willing to lend us the difference with no interest and flexible repayment.

But ultimately it will take my wife and I many years of 'BaristaFire' or coasting with part time jobs / manual labour to pay back $350k, not least having to pay for things like paying for future kids' education etc.

I had originally planned to work in Biglaw for at least 5 more years to earn enough for a nice house plus luxuries like private school, but given my state of mental health, I don't know if I can even manage another year.

Do you think we are crazy? Would you take the leap, dump the huge salaries and find something happier to do for a living (and a more peaceful way of life)?

No you definitely aren't crazy. Probably the opposite. I'm sure some of your coworkers dislike their jobs just as much as you but they are stuck there for the foreseeable future because they their current level of spending. Those people are crazy.

I'm sure you have thought a lot about the 800k house but it sounds like the weak point in your plan. Is it in a VHCOL area as well? House maintenance typically is a function of value (i.e. 1% per year) and outfitting an 800k house with decorations and furniture would be expensive as well.

FLBiker

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I'm sure you have thought a lot about the 800k house but it sounds like the weak point in your plan. Is it in a VHCOL area as well? House maintenance typically is a function of value (i.e. 1% per year) and outfitting an 800k house with decorations and furniture would be expensive as well.

This is what I was thinking, too.  I'm 44, with 1.2 million, and basically feel like I'm FI.  I want to check our spending for a year (we just moved to Canada from the US) but our house only cost ~$200,000.  And, as Soily points out, this is reflected in maintenance costs, decor, etc.

Big picture, though, I think one of the real benefits of having a chunk of cash saved up is the ability to take risks.  You'll be fine, and the plan will not ultimately look exactly like you think it will today.

AccidentialMustache

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800k is a lot of house. In the US that'd be coastal mega-cities. That's maybe, maybe 1% of the land area of the country? 800k in the midwest where I am (which is for sure slower than the big coastal cities) is a mansion. Even in Chicago/suburbs, 800k is a stupid amount of house. Yes, you can find them, but you are mostly paying for status, and as a mustachian your give a damn about status should be irreparably broken.

Our overly-fancy (architect designed, back in the 80s) house we moved into at a bit over 2.5k sf and it was less than your "savings for house" bucket. It was more than we strictly wanted, but it enabled a lot less car (bike to kid's school, bike to my work) so was acceptable to us for that reason.

legalstache

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Congrats on harnessing the power of biglaw to accumulate so much at a young age. Very impressive. I don't think you're crazy as I worked at a midlaw firm for a few years and hated that level of stress, so I completely understand wanting to get out. Are you totally over the law? With your skillset, I wonder about switching to a smaller firm or different legal setting for a couple years to allow your investments more time to grow.

Like others, I wonder about the house, including, obviously, the price, but also the payment method. It sounds like you're thinking of paying for it in cash. Is that because of concerns over being able to get a loan, or just being debt averse? I don't know what country you're considering or what's typical there, but could you put 20% down (or maybe more with family help) and then qualify for a loan based on your assets?

Do you have a rough idea of what your expenses would be in the new country?

Albatross

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Thanks All.

Maybe I am a bit in over my own head about property, but I would say that price point was only 'slightly above average' for a detached house where I want to move to. A detached house where I currently live is at least US$2.6mil in an inconvenient location, so US$800k seems like a good deal - but I suppose it's all relative. I’ll eye up a few other houses with lower prices – there must be something out there. As per my post I am lucky in that my parents are willing to effectively lend me the outstanding amount to buy a place on flexible repayment terms (but a debt is a debt).

I think trying to find an alternative career within the law is possible if the stress levels can be managed, but I will always be looking out the window, dreaming about something entrepreneurial, or something I can work on and 'get in the flow' for regardless of the income. But that's the thing - I'd have that outright privilege if I was FI already, but I am not, and there are still some future expenses I have to be thinking about if I want to live the life I want for my wife and future kids.

I am encouraged by the number of people who say I’m not crazy – but then I speak to my parents and they aren’t convinced by the numbers (but are genuinely concerned for my mental health!). Then again, my parents are A-type high earning individuals from a previous generation who say they will keep working no matter how old they are even if they need to work in supermarkets, because, ‘work is good’. I agree that work is good – just not the soul sucking type!

MrThatsDifferent

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I’m a bit confused by your post, you wrote that you’re moving to a new country but then you also talk about buying an $800k home where you currently live? I’m not seeing the full picture here.

And why do you have to buy something now while you’re trying to work out your life? Maybe you and your DW want to explore the world a bit? Try different areas? Instead of focusing on a permanent house, just rent. Maybe think about living minimally until you find exactly where you want to settle down. There’s no rush, you’re only 33.

As for your plans: your mental health comes first. If you’re feeling that strongly, here’s some things you can do first:
1. Find a therapist to talk to.  Please consider this. It’s great that men are starting to acknowledge their mental health, yet still problematic that so few will seek out therapists to assist them. Don’t be that guy. Really commit to getting healthy, it’s more than just work affecting you.
2. Put in for a break at work, use vacation time or sick leave or a non paid sabbatical. Give yourself a month off at least to focus on things that can re-center you: therapy, meditation, exercise and spending time with people who love you. At this point, if you’re already considering quitting, you have nothing to lose to take a break.

Otherwise, with essentially $1.5m you’ve got plenty of money to take a break and down shift. You have twice what MMM himself had when he stepped away from work. And there lots that lawyers can do in new careers, sky’s the limit really. Teaching law might be of interest. Consider investing in an executive career coach who can help you work out pathways to explore.

Mostly I’d strongly consider freeing yourself from the idea of having to buy the $800k home. That’s the albatross around your neck. Let that go for now and more possibilities and options will open up.

Albatross

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Thanks MrThatsDifferent.
you wrote that you’re moving to a new country but then you also talk about buying an $800k home where you currently live? I’m not seeing the full picture here.


Perhaps i wasn't clear - was just trying to draw a comparison between house prices between places.  The $800k house would be in a new country. I'd have to spend about 3xwhat to get an equivalent home where I currently live,  so it was just for context on how we see things relatively,  and perhaps that has warped my sense of what is good value for a home (“oh 800k? Great price” when clearly it's not).

You're right I need to consider cheaper accommodation and explore renting for a while first. No urgency except for wanting to feel like I have a home base from which to finally “start” my life. More symbolic / psychological than practical.

I have a number for a counsellor and I will take your suggestion to finally give that person a call. I also like the idea of asking for a break,  but we have major deadlines every 2 weeks or so and as the “middle manager” in the group it would be pretty devastating to the team to take time like that off. At the same time you're right - I have nothing to lose. I'll think on it more.

MrThatsDifferent

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Thanks MrThatsDifferent.
you wrote that you’re moving to a new country but then you also talk about buying an $800k home where you currently live? I’m not seeing the full picture here.


Perhaps i wasn't clear - was just trying to draw a comparison between house prices between places.  The $800k house would be in a new country. I'd have to spend about 3xwhat to get an equivalent home where I currently live,  so it was just for context on how we see things relatively,  and perhaps that has warped my sense of what is good value for a home (“oh 800k? Great price” when clearly it's not).

You're right I need to consider cheaper accommodation and explore renting for a while first. No urgency except for wanting to feel like I have a home base from which to finally “start” my life. More symbolic / psychological than practical.

I have a number for a counsellor and I will take your suggestion to finally give that person a call. I also like the idea of asking for a break,  but we have major deadlines every 2 weeks or so and as the “middle manager” in the group it would be pretty devastating to the team to take time like that off. At the same time you're right - I have nothing to lose. I'll think on it more.

I had similar thinking to you, it would be devastating if I took time off. Guess what? The organization didn’t fall apart. The team didn’t fall apart. If you died tomorrow, your team will continue. The worst thinking is the, they can’t exist without me so let me keep sacrificing. Everyone in an organization is expendable. Apple has grown with Steve Jobs gone. Your team will be fine. They will get a chance to lead and do what needs to be done, they’re smart capable people. Your mental health is an emergency, don’t waste a second attending to it. And when you take the break, make it a real one and let them know you won’t be touch work. That’s what you need to sort yourself. And as I mentioned, if you did resign you’d be leaving them to fend for themselves, this is the same except you’ll be back after your break.

Albatross

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Thank you that's very helpful and a logical comparison.

I'll have to process it further as it is quite radical in a traditional working environment.

Catbert

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45% of your retirement stash in Asian markets seems...hmm, crazy.  A portion of your portfolio bc you think you can hit it big, sure.  But to sorta FIRE on such a concentrated and volatile international market seems foolhardy. 

Regardless of price I wouldn't buy a home overseas until I had lived in that country/city for at least a year.  What if you don't like it?  What if taxes don't work the way you think they do?  What if you get homesick?  No need to be in a rush to buy.

AccidentialMustache

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I'll have to process it further as it is quite radical in a traditional working environment.

I'm in software, but my goal has always been that my co-workers -- especially junior staff -- are ready and able to pick up in my absence. If they aren't, I'm not doing my job well as a more senior developer. I'm not documenting, not training, not explaining the big picture of why the system is built the way it is, not writing understandable code, not getting the junior staff to code review, not ...

Any employer who sees me as expendable because of that isn't worth my time. The sooner they show their true colors, the better off I am. Twice in my career I've been told the "my talents are best suited elsewhere" (or an equivalent -- blocking a promotion I was more than qualified for) and both times I've been way better off within 6 months in a new gig.

Albatross

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45% of your retirement stash in Asian markets seems...hmm, crazy.  A portion of your portfolio bc you think you can hit it big, sure.  But to sorta FIRE on such a concentrated and volatile international market seems foolhardy. 

Just curious - what is your thinking behind this and are you based in the US? (I am not - actually based in Asia). I have seen many commentators and Jack Bogle himself say no more than 10-15% in international exposure, but I've never fully understood that thinking when the world is becoming multi-polarised in terms of economic and political power. I'm not an American myself but I love the US market and the attitude of Americans to business and capitalism - hence why so much of my portfolio (55 to 60%) is in SP500.

I think you are right though that Asian markets tend to be quite volatile and there still seem to be a lot of 'newbie' retail investors - but in the long term there may be a case to say that capitalist Asia will be incredibly successful.

Then in the context of diversification, does approx. 40 to 45% in such a market really seem that unwise? Welcome all comments and interested to see where you're coming from.

Regardless of price I wouldn't buy a home overseas until I had lived in that country/city for at least a year.  What if you don't like it?  What if taxes don't work the way you think they do?  What if you get homesick?  No need to be in a rush to buy.

Thanks yes - you are right. I think I just wanted to 'lock in' the price of a home and forget about it instead of paying rent (as well as other psychological  / symbolic reasons of having a 'base' from which to start my new life) - but I think it's best to rent first anyway, drive around different neiughbourhoods and get a feel for a specific area, before putting down huge sums of munny.

Albatross

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I'm in software, but my goal has always been that my co-workers -- especially junior staff -- are ready and able to pick up in my absence.

That's a very interesting point. The more I think about it - I have set up systems for others to handle certain tasks with my general oversight. If I suddenly disappeared, the world would still keep turning. Perhaps I need to get over my obsessive, perfectionist type attitude to work. That attitude has also led me to burn out many times.

Catbert

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Sorry, didn't realize you were Asia rather than US based.  I thought you were playing some I'm smarter than the market game.  No opi ion on your situation

ChpBstrd

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The question "can I FIRE on $$$" cannot be answered without knowing what you will spend. The trap you are in is that you don't know what you will spend in retirement. $50-60k/year, which is about 4% of your stache, will buy you a comfortable middle-class lifestyle in most of the U.S. South and Midwest. It might buy you a lot of luxury in a "developing" economy like Thailand or Mexico. You could lay out the options that this amount of money will afford on a menu to compare them side-by-side.

I'll try to categorize the insane and not-insane options I can think of.

INSANE:
1) Buy $800k house in VHCOL area, attempt to Barista-FIRE with a $450k mortgage and I'm guessing a 6-7% WR before barista earnings.
2) Keep working to build up savings for an $800k house, only to find it has now gone up to $1.2M, so work another year or two to earn that much, and repeat until death or mental breakdown.

NOT INSANE:
3) Combine your funds into a $1.5M stache, invested in a diversified asset allocation. Retire and rent in your VHCOL area for a year to see how you like it, if your total expenses, rent included, are 4% of your stache or less (about $60k).
4) If expenses for #3 would exceed 4%, retire and leave the VHCOL area. Buy a charming house with two more bedrooms than you need in Peoria, Illinois or similar for $150k-200k depending on fanciness (rent for a year before you buy). Raise a family. Get a dog and secretly regret it. Resist the urges to buy an SUV, enroll the little one in Taekwondo, or other stupid suburban stuff.
5) Declare yourself FIRE and move around the world, living in 10 unique and different places over the next 10 years on a 3% WR, similar to the bloggers at millenial-revolution. Become an airline miles credit card hacking guru to handle airfare to visit family and friends. Do all sorts of crazy stuff, have all sorts of crazy stories, learn to butcher 3 new languages, and be the envy of the commuter crowd at parties when you visit your old VHCOL area.   
6) Set and enforce very strict work/life boundaries. If they fire you, so what? You just retire at that point with your sanity in place and then pick one of the sane options above. Blow a kiss on the way out the door; I've found that always perplexes ex-bosses. Until then, and potentially for a couple of years, pile up a massive stache while directing a six-figure firehose of money toward a charity trying to eradicate guinea worm infections in African kids. Break down crying on the stage as you accept a philanthropy award.

You can come up with your own special mix. You have the agency to do most things, just not the things you want at this moment.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2021, 01:13:06 PM by ChpBstrd »

PassMMM

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Re: Taking A Leap - (But Not FIREd - getting out 4 years earlier than planned)
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2022, 02:30:25 PM »
As someone considering a similar early abandonment of biglaw, curious to see how this all went. Any updates??

Albatross

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Re: Taking A Leap - (But Not FIREd - getting out 4 years earlier than planned)
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2022, 08:32:34 AM »
As someone considering a similar early abandonment of biglaw, curious to see how this all went. Any updates??

I'd totally forgotten about this thread! Interesting to read back on my own despair. How are you holding up with biglaw @PassMMM?

Update on personal matters:
Around the time I posted in April 2021, I burnt out big time. Very strange feeling. Felt like I was physically disassociated from my body, was fed up with small things, no motivation to work at all, sometimes spent hours just staring at a 2 line email paralysed late at night.

In June 2021, I unsuccessfully resigned (boss convinced me to take indefinite unpaid sabbatical lol). After about 3 months my boss wanted to know how I was placed and whether I needed more time. I said I hadn't quite recovered from burn out but could try a 4-day week and said I won't look at emails past 6:00pm.

So from November 2021 til now, I have been working on that basis (and took some time off being a new parent in that time).

Coincidentally, around the time of your post PassMMM, I resigned proper. Turns out flexible working / part-time etc doesn't solve toxic workplace issues. I don't know what I'll do next honestly but I'll try my hand at legal consulting. I'm also going to try and monetise a hobby / turn it into a business, but that will take years honestly. I will finish up in Dec, and 2023 will be a new beginning, where my wife and I will do a mixture of drawing down from our portfolio income and supplementing with odd jobs here and there (c.f. legal consulting if possible). But really, I just need time away from the rat race. I need time to try and actually build my own life, not a life that the firm wishes me to have. I've now proven to myself that those golden handcuffs can very much be broken. Hopefully now I can stop complaining about how this awful corporate behemoth is ruling my life, and I can take responsibility for what happens to me and my family.

Portfolio update
Stock markets have been nasty and I got my hands burnt with my fairly heavy allocation to Asia. I did however get lucky with my S&P500 portion which was GBP-denominated. 

It's hard to quantify in USD because of the strength of the USD, so I'll show the change of in portfolio value since my opening post in GBP:
  • FIRE stash (equities): £0.86M to £0.66M (23% decrease) - but most dividends were kept as cash, and I did shave the top off my S&P500 on occasion
  • Cash for house: £216k to £475k (120% increase)
Overall portfolio: £1.076M to £1.135M (5.4% NW increase) - excluding post-tax earnings of about £100k, this means my portfolio itself returned about -3.8% in a pretty horrible year so I'm happy with that.

We will probably also settle for a house that's not quite as extravagant as the $800k we originally envisaged!

Edit a number of figures that got confused in currency conversions - apologies.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2022, 09:09:24 AM by Albatross »

Dicey

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Re: Taking A Leap - (But Not FIREd - getting out 4 years earlier than planned)
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2022, 09:02:36 AM »
Always nice to see an update from someone on the verge of FIRE.

Also, if you put an ampersand in front of someone's screen name, it'll send them a ping. Like this: @PassMMM.

Albatross

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Re: Taking A Leap - (But Not FIREd - getting out 4 years earlier than planned)
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2022, 09:07:31 AM »
Always nice to see an update from someone on the verge of FIRE.

Also, if you put an ampersand in front of someone's screen name, it'll send them a ping. Like this: @PassMMM.

Thank you! I'll edit that now. Also I updated some figures - maths is not great when I'm tired.

PassMMM

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Re: Taking A Leap - (But Not FIREd - getting out 4 years earlier than planned)
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2022, 03:27:10 PM »
First off, thanks for responding! And glad things are going well. Super interesting to hear about how your firm was encouraging about a sabbatical and reduced schedule when presented with your first attempted resignation.

I'm holding up with biglaw well enough; wrapping up my fifth year. I'm constantly applying to jobs that would be a 70%+ paycut but seem more fulfilling. Never thought I'd be at a firm this long, so my stache has exceeded my expectations already. Feels like I'm on borrowed time. Thankfully I didn't buy too much house a few years ago and my bills really aren't so bad - I maybe spend $5-6k/mo all in - which is not too bad of a dent on biglaw $. Work isn't so bad so I'll probably stick it out until I get one of those jobs eventually or burnout really takes over.

Now that you are headed to post-biglaw life, have you figured out where you'll be settling? Last we heard it looked like you were picking between your VHCOL are or moving somewhere far cheaper. Glad to hear your portfolio managed to suffer far less than the rest of us indexers, and best of luck with the consulting and hobby-business endeavors!

Albatross

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Re: Taking A Leap - (But Not FIREd - getting out 4 years earlier than planned)
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2022, 09:24:04 AM »
Yes we'll be packing our bags from our VHCOL and moving to a small city in the UK. It will be cheaper, but mostly with respect to property and fresh food. Honestly just want a bit of green, space, a garden, place for pets and kid(s) to run around. Feels like we've been putting off life in our 450sq ft apartment. Thank you - I do hope the hobby stuff can kick off. Not looking to be ultra wealthy, just happy with what I'm doing and hopefully to contribute to paying bills.

Glad to hear you're holding up well enough in BigLaw. Honestly I wouldn't wait until you get to that point of burnout, because it has really affected the way I look at everything now (but maybe for the better?). If you're managing OK then that's fine. I got to the point where now even calls from friends / family give me a minor panic attack.