Author Topic: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?  (Read 21871 times)

Bucksandreds

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #50 on: December 29, 2015, 02:00:56 PM »

To be clear, my post above was not making any kind of legal argument, and this post is not either. The only reason I cited these Canadian authorities is to make the point that seeking consent before touching somebody is not "a new thing". The fact that this concept has been a part of the law for a long time shows that it is not new. It is part of being a member of a civilised society.

I'm still lost at what you are trying to saying. I don't want to kiss her, or anyone for that matter, without them also wanting me to do so, but for the first kiss, it would feel entirely unromantic to turn to her and say, "May I kiss you?"

While we were at the museum, there were a ton of people at the exhibit and I lightly put my arm on her back to stay with her as we were trying to find a spot to get a good view of the painting that the guide was talking about. I could see her smile at the contact and later she put her arm around me. I think this worked rather well.

Don't ask.  As much as girls might tell people otherwise they instinctually want an aggressive mate who takes what they want.  Now if you try to take what you want (first go in for the kiss and see if she does too, etc to next step ,etc) and they say no or stop then you stop.  That really would just mean that they're not that in to you.  This one is in to you by the looks of it.  Go take what you want.  As for explaining your financial philosophy, spend enough to show her you value her and your time with her.  Also don't spend lavishly to look like someone youre not.  Once she really knows you after 6 months to a year of dating then she'll be ready to see that you save your money because you value her and your time with her so much that you want more of it.

This is absolute fucking bullshit and you really should stop giving advice. That's about the tamest response I can muster for you[/b]. [/b][/size]Consent is a thing, and you need to learn what it is.

The three dates you've been on are much more signficant to the nature of your relationship than how you happened to meet (dating site); however, you can't make any assumptions about being "in a relationship". Sure it is convienient that in your past relationships, you've had someone in common who could help mediate the communication to avoid an awkward misinterpretation of each other's actions; however, many successful relationships have developed without such a luxury - you just need to expand your communications skill set and negotiate developing the relationship without that help. You might want to define if you are "in a relationship" before you arive together at your friend's party on Thursday. You could just casually bring up your interest in continuing to get to know her and ask how she would like your friends to see her.

As for physical affection, it sounds like you're doing just fine respecting her and developing the level of affection you are both comfortable without words. I certainly wouldn't discourage speaking "May I ...", but carefully observing her signals as you causiously signal your intention to show affection can also work. You could ask for permission before the "moment" such as "May I kiss you at midnight?" before going to the new year's party or "May I kiss you goodnight when I drop you off?" as you begin the drive to her place at the end of a date. (This could even allow anticipation to amplify the power of showing affection.)

This is only my opinion, but I like uncertainty and anticipation of possibilities. I would (and have) ask if someone would like a kiss goodnight at the moment when I would kiss them; asking far ahead of time seems awkward and strange to me (also, if they change their mind then they are in a really awkward position to say no).  I generally phrase it as 'would you like' instead of 'may I', but again that's personal preference.

Sometimes I ask and sometimes I don't. I try very hard to read body language and often a first kiss is very obviously a mutual desire without words to that affect. I will sometimes ask if I am unsure, but I am generally quite conservative with my guesses (I have never been told no, which implies there are likely other times I could have kissed but didn't).

First kisses are my favorite. :)

Did you fail to read the following sentence that explains how to do that while not assaulting someone?  Should have known the outrage crowd would be out in full force.  Sorry I'll shift back to PC mode now.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 02:02:37 PM by Bucksandreds »

Bucksandreds

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #51 on: December 29, 2015, 02:05:19 PM »
Even with that said, asking verbally for consent beforehand is totally weird and off putting. Be a normal human, pick up context clues, and stop over-thinking every little thing as if the existence of your relationship would immediately terminate if you make a slight mistake.
Not necessarily; see below. I can also say from personal experience that some people really appreciate that.

"May I kiss you" and "May I hold your hand" sound very courtly to me. If I guy used these phrases on me, I would mark him as a gentleman.


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It's sexy as hell when done properly.

99% of girls would find an adult man creepy as hell if he did that.  I spent 9 years at a major college with 25,000 18-25 year old girls around.  Don't ask.  You'll spend the night with your hand.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #52 on: December 29, 2015, 02:05:54 PM »
Not necessarily; see below. I can also say from personal experience that some people really appreciate that.

Like I said, just pick up on context clues. Dropping her off after a date? Then ya, I can see it being cute to ask for a kiss goodnight. Just finished up watching a movie and you already have your arms around each other? Lean in and go for it.

Again, just pick up the context.

And for the love of God OP, whatever you do, don't do what I did for a decade and over think every little thing. Trust me--if you two have a thing for each other, any small "mistake" will be trivial. I did and said things with my girlfriend that my GF cries laughing at now.

Bearded Man

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2015, 02:06:58 PM »
When I was single I used to mention that the house was paid off as we got back to my place. It explained the average rather than palace size so it was a good way to explain that I'm frugal, in that I bought a house I could pay in full so that I could reduce my expenses.

JLee

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2015, 02:07:42 PM »

To be clear, my post above was not making any kind of legal argument, and this post is not either. The only reason I cited these Canadian authorities is to make the point that seeking consent before touching somebody is not "a new thing". The fact that this concept has been a part of the law for a long time shows that it is not new. It is part of being a member of a civilised society.

I'm still lost at what you are trying to saying. I don't want to kiss her, or anyone for that matter, without them also wanting me to do so, but for the first kiss, it would feel entirely unromantic to turn to her and say, "May I kiss you?"

While we were at the museum, there were a ton of people at the exhibit and I lightly put my arm on her back to stay with her as we were trying to find a spot to get a good view of the painting that the guide was talking about. I could see her smile at the contact and later she put her arm around me. I think this worked rather well.

Don't ask.  As much as girls might tell people otherwise they instinctually want an aggressive mate who takes what they want.  Now if you try to take what you want (first go in for the kiss and see if she does too, etc to next step ,etc) and they say no or stop then you stop.  That really would just mean that they're not that in to you.  This one is in to you by the looks of it.  Go take what you want.  As for explaining your financial philosophy, spend enough to show her you value her and your time with her.  Also don't spend lavishly to look like someone youre not.  Once she really knows you after 6 months to a year of dating then she'll be ready to see that you save your money because you value her and your time with her so much that you want more of it.

This is absolute fucking bullshit and you really should stop giving advice. That's about the tamest response I can muster for you[/b]. [/b][/size]Consent is a thing, and you need to learn what it is.

The three dates you've been on are much more signficant to the nature of your relationship than how you happened to meet (dating site); however, you can't make any assumptions about being "in a relationship". Sure it is convienient that in your past relationships, you've had someone in common who could help mediate the communication to avoid an awkward misinterpretation of each other's actions; however, many successful relationships have developed without such a luxury - you just need to expand your communications skill set and negotiate developing the relationship without that help. You might want to define if you are "in a relationship" before you arive together at your friend's party on Thursday. You could just casually bring up your interest in continuing to get to know her and ask how she would like your friends to see her.

As for physical affection, it sounds like you're doing just fine respecting her and developing the level of affection you are both comfortable without words. I certainly wouldn't discourage speaking "May I ...", but carefully observing her signals as you causiously signal your intention to show affection can also work. You could ask for permission before the "moment" such as "May I kiss you at midnight?" before going to the new year's party or "May I kiss you goodnight when I drop you off?" as you begin the drive to her place at the end of a date. (This could even allow anticipation to amplify the power of showing affection.)

This is only my opinion, but I like uncertainty and anticipation of possibilities. I would (and have) ask if someone would like a kiss goodnight at the moment when I would kiss them; asking far ahead of time seems awkward and strange to me (also, if they change their mind then they are in a really awkward position to say no).  I generally phrase it as 'would you like' instead of 'may I', but again that's personal preference.

Sometimes I ask and sometimes I don't. I try very hard to read body language and often a first kiss is very obviously a mutual desire without words to that affect. I will sometimes ask if I am unsure, but I am generally quite conservative with my guesses (I have never been told no, which implies there are likely other times I could have kissed but didn't).

First kisses are my favorite. :)

Did you fail to read the following sentence that explains how to do that while not assaulting someone?  Should have known the outrage crowd would be out in full force.  Sorry I'll shift back to PC mode now.
If by "outrage crowd" you mean "respect boundaries and don't assume that millions of people all want the same thing", I guess I'm now a proud member of the outrage crowd.

Your stereotype is offensive and incorrect. It perpetuates a "don't ask permission / men get what they want / women exist to be used by men / women should just say no if they don't want something" attitude. Did you ever think that maybe not everyone "instinctually wants an aggressive mate who takes what they want"? More than one woman has posted in this thread saying they like permission - but here you are telling everyone to just go for it and force someone to be in a position where they have to say no.

Enthusiastic consent is very important to me, and it should be to everyone. You can't get enthusiastic consent when you just decide to take what you want and rely on the other person to tell you to stop.

Even with that said, asking verbally for consent beforehand is totally weird and off putting. Be a normal human, pick up context clues, and stop over-thinking every little thing as if the existence of your relationship would immediately terminate if you make a slight mistake.
Not necessarily; see below. I can also say from personal experience that some people really appreciate that.

"May I kiss you" and "May I hold your hand" sound very courtly to me. If I guy used these phrases on me, I would mark him as a gentleman.


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It's sexy as hell when done properly.

99% of girls would find an adult man creepy as hell if he did that.  I spent 9 years at a major college with 25,000 18-25 year old girls around.  Don't ask.  You'll spend the night with your hand.

Meanwhile, I've never been told no (nor has asking ever negatively changed a date's trajectory). Perhaps you and I date different types of people.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 02:10:53 PM by JLee »

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #55 on: December 29, 2015, 02:09:32 PM »
Did you fail to read the following sentence that explains how to do that while not assaulting someone?  Should have known the outrage crowd would be out in full force.  Sorry I'll shift back to PC mode now.

I don't object to the "don't ask" advice (again, if the situation is right), but I do object to the complete generalization of women in his first sentence.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 02:11:10 PM by ReadySetMillionaire »

JLee

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #56 on: December 29, 2015, 02:12:22 PM »
Did you fail to read the following sentence that explains how to do that while not assaulting someone?  Should have known the outrage crowd would be out in full force.  Sorry I'll shift back to PC mode now.

I don't object to the "don't ask" advice (again, if the situation is right), but I do object to the complete generalization of women in his first sentence.
100% agreed. The underlying general mindset of "take what you want and then find out if she wants to" is harmful.

Cookie78

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #57 on: December 29, 2015, 02:13:14 PM »
Even with that said, asking verbally for consent beforehand is totally weird and off putting. Be a normal human, pick up context clues, and stop over-thinking every little thing as if the existence of your relationship would immediately terminate if you make a slight mistake.
Not necessarily; see below. I can also say from personal experience that some people really appreciate that.

"May I kiss you" and "May I hold your hand" sound very courtly to me. If I guy used these phrases on me, I would mark him as a gentleman.


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It's sexy as hell when done properly.

99% of girls would find an adult man creepy as hell if he did that.  I spent 9 years at a major college with 25,000 18-25 year old girls around.  Don't ask.  You'll spend the night with your hand.

I've more often been creeped out by guys that didn't ask than guys who asked in a charming/amusing/subtle way. The ones who are 'aggressive' and 'take what they want' are far more creepy in my experience. Maybe I'm just part of the 1%. I actually had a guy say 'give me what I want' to me when trying to kiss me and I turned away. How is that less creepy?


NoraLenderbee

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #58 on: December 29, 2015, 04:50:09 PM »
Even with that said, asking verbally for consent beforehand is totally weird and off putting. Be a normal human, pick up context clues, and stop over-thinking every little thing as if the existence of your relationship would immediately terminate if you make a slight mistake.
Not necessarily; see below. I can also say from personal experience that some people really appreciate that.

"May I kiss you" and "May I hold your hand" sound very courtly to me. If I guy used these phrases on me, I would mark him as a gentleman.


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It's sexy as hell when done properly.

99% of girls would find an adult man creepy as hell if he did that.

Adult men shouldn't be dating girls in the first place.  As an adult woman, I would find that very sexy coming from a man I was dating and wanted to kiss. (Some random dude, no.)

Quote
I spent 9 years at a major college with 25,000 18-25 year old girls around.  Don't ask.  You'll spend the night with your hand.


What a coincidence! I too spent 9 years around people in that age group when I was 18-28.. Therefore I am also an expert in what all women want.

Zikoris

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #59 on: December 29, 2015, 05:36:53 PM »
Just to confirm, is this what you guys in support of asking are thinking of? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVHYvUpeqKI If there's a different video that's a more accurate depiction, please share.

I don't think I'm the only one who would find that weird and uncomfortable as hell.

Cathy

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #60 on: December 29, 2015, 06:55:05 PM »
Zikoris, I'm not sure why you need a video to understand the concept of asking for concept. It's pretty straightforward. That said, I did take a look at your video. I'm guessing your complaint with the video is that the physically intimate activity depicted therein is continually interrupted by the cross-requests for consent. If that is a problem for you, the easy solution is to negotiate the parameters of the physical activity up front, before starting. Then, once you start, just stay within the bounds of what was previously agreed to. Both parties will still retain the right to revoke any consent they gave previously, so it's still important to listen to your partner at all times, but the upfront discussion can mostly avoid the need for back-and-forth chatter during the physical activity itself (if avoiding that is important to you).
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 06:57:11 PM by Cathy »

Zikoris

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #61 on: December 29, 2015, 07:23:30 PM »
Zikoris, I'm not sure why you need a video to understand the concept of asking for concept. It's pretty straightforward. That said, I did take a look at your video. I'm guessing your complaint with the video is that the physically intimate activity depicted therein is continually interrupted by the cross-requests for consent. If that is a problem for you, the easy solution is to negotiate the parameters of the physical activity up front, before starting. Then, once you start, just stay within the bounds of what was previously agreed to. Both parties will still retain the right to revoke any consent they gave previously, so it's still important to listen to your partner at all times, but the upfront discussion can mostly avoid the need for back-and-forth chatter during the physical activity itself (if avoiding that is important to you).

I understand the concept, what I'm not understanding is how it could be done in a way that's not super awkward and uncomfortable, and maybe even done in a "sexy" way. So far, it just seems repulsive to me and would guarantee an immediate end to anything sexual if the guy said anything even remotely similar to the video guy.

Bucksandreds

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #62 on: December 29, 2015, 07:29:21 PM »
Zikoris, I'm not sure why you need a video to understand the concept of asking for concept. It's pretty straightforward. That said, I did take a look at your video. I'm guessing your complaint with the video is that the physically intimate activity depicted therein is continually interrupted by the cross-requests for consent. If that is a problem for you, the easy solution is to negotiate the parameters of the physical activity up front, before starting. Then, once you start, just stay within the bounds of what was previously agreed to. Both parties will still retain the right to revoke any consent they gave previously, so it's still important to listen to your partner at all times, but the upfront discussion can mostly avoid the need for back-and-forth chatter during the physical activity itself (if avoiding that is important to you).

Welcome to the twilight zone.  MMM forums; where feminism is empowered to test the limits of sanity.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 07:31:23 PM by Bucksandreds »

onlykelsey

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #63 on: December 29, 2015, 07:37:52 PM »

I understand the concept, what I'm not understanding is how it could be done in a way that's not super awkward and uncomfortable, and maybe even done in a "sexy" way. So far, it just seems repulsive to me and would guarantee an immediate end to anything sexual if the guy said anything even remotely similar to the video guy.

I think in the last ten years a lot of American colleges have begun teaching consent that way.  I guess it's a pretty fool-proof system if your partner has consented to literally ever step you take as you make it, and safer for both parties if someone disputes whether there was consent.

It's pretty extreme.  As a woman in my 20s, I sort of absorbed enough of the model in to my thought to (a) go out of my way to communicate consent, understanding that my male partners were risking ending up in hot water, and (b) checking in as things progressed to various points for the first time.   It all seems a bit moot if you become physical over time in a relationship setting, because presumably you're communicating about your relationship when you're not actually physically involved, and moving forward gradually, removing the need to do a stilted check in every five minutes.

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #64 on: December 29, 2015, 07:44:50 PM »

To be clear, my post above was not making any kind of legal argument, and this post is not either. The only reason I cited these Canadian authorities is to make the point that seeking consent before touching somebody is not "a new thing". The fact that this concept has been a part of the law for a long time shows that it is not new. It is part of being a member of a civilised society.

I'm still lost at what you are trying to saying. I don't want to kiss her, or anyone for that matter, without them also wanting me to do so, but for the first kiss, it would feel entirely unromantic to turn to her and say, "May I kiss you?"

While we were at the museum, there were a ton of people at the exhibit and I lightly put my arm on her back to stay with her as we were trying to find a spot to get a good view of the painting that the guide was talking about. I could see her smile at the contact and later she put her arm around me. I think this worked rather well.

Don't ask.  As much as girls might tell people otherwise they instinctually want an aggressive mate who takes what they want. Now if you try to take what you want (first go in for the kiss and see if she does too, etc to next step ,etc) and they say no or stop then you stop.  That really would just mean that they're not that in to you.  This one is in to you by the looks of it.  Go take what you want.  As for explaining your financial philosophy, spend enough to show her you value her and your time with her.  Also don't spend lavishly to look like someone youre not.  Once she really knows you after 6 months to a year of dating then she'll be ready to see that you save your money because you value her and your time with her so much that you want more of it.

Oh dear God.  A man, speaking for what all womankind wants.  Hopefully OP you can see this for the awful advice it is.

I never felt a man needed to explicitly ask for a kiss (hand hold, etc.).  For me, doing those things in ways that made it easy enough to  duck out if I wanted was more than enough.  IOW, lean on slowly for a kiss so she can see it is coming and demure if she isn't interested.  That said, I think. "I really want to kiss you right now.  Would that be okay" is incredible sexy.  I can't imagine how it would be creepy, in any way. 

I don't need a man to ask before any additional step, especially if those steps are taken slowly so I can speak up if, at any point, something in which I'm not interested looks like it is going to happen.  But sometimes, especially when the relationship is new, it certainly can make things a but less awkward to ask than to not ask and upset someone, and prevent someone from feeling pushed into something in which they weren't interested. 

onlykelsey

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #65 on: December 29, 2015, 07:48:18 PM »
Quote
I don't need a man to ask before any additional step, especially if those steps are taken slowly so I can speak up if, at any point, something in which I'm not interested looks like it is going to happen.  But sometimes, especially when the relationship is new, it certainly can make things a but less awkward to ask than to not ask and upset someone, and prevent someone from feeling pushed into something in which they weren't interested.

Agreed, Villanelle.  If you're already friends or have been seeing each other, it's going to take much less awkward talking to get a clear read on each other.   And, from a cynic's point of view, asking can only really protect you if something goes sour in the future. 

Bucksandreds

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #66 on: December 29, 2015, 08:04:14 PM »

To be clear, my post above was not making any kind of legal argument, and this post is not either. The only reason I cited these Canadian authorities is to make the point that seeking consent before touching somebody is not "a new thing". The fact that this concept has been a part of the law for a long time shows that it is not new. It is part of being a member of a civilised society.

I'm still lost at what you are trying to saying. I don't want to kiss her, or anyone for that matter, without them also wanting me to do so, but for the first kiss, it would feel entirely unromantic to turn to her and say, "May I kiss you?"

While we were at the museum, there were a ton of people at the exhibit and I lightly put my arm on her back to stay with her as we were trying to find a spot to get a good view of the painting that the guide was talking about. I could see her smile at the contact and later she put her arm around me. I think this worked rather well.

Don't ask.  As much as girls might tell people otherwise they instinctually want an aggressive mate who takes what they want. Now if you try to take what you want (first go in for the kiss and see if she does too, etc to next step ,etc) and they say no or stop then you stop.  That really would just mean that they're not that in to you.  This one is in to you by the looks of it.  Go take what you want.  As for explaining your financial philosophy, spend enough to show her you value her and your time with her.  Also don't spend lavishly to look like someone youre not.  Once she really knows you after 6 months to a year of dating then she'll be ready to see that you save your money because you value her and your time with her so much that you want more of it.

Oh dear God.  A man, speaking for what all womankind wants.  Hopefully OP you can see this for the awful advice it is.

I never felt a man needed to explicitly ask for a kiss (hand hold, etc.).  For me, doing those things in ways that made it easy enough to  duck out if I wanted was more than enough.  IOW, lean on slowly for a kiss so she can see it is coming and demure if she isn't interested.  That said, I think. "I really want to kiss you right now.  Would that be okay" is incredible sexy.  I can't imagine how it would be creepy, in any way. 

I don't need a man to ask before any additional step, especially if those steps are taken slowly so I can speak up if, at any point, something in which I'm not interested looks like it is going to happen.  But sometimes, especially when the relationship is new, it certainly can make things a but less awkward to ask than to not ask and upset someone, and prevent someone from feeling pushed into something in which they weren't interested.

Am I on candid camera? Nearly every single one of you suggests (after I did) that giving a signal (like leaning in for a kiss and seeing if they respond) is the best approach. Has not a single one of you read my very first sentence after the bolded part?  The Outrage crowd , Feminist, PC police got ahold of a buzzword of mine that they didn't like and made themselves feel empowered and self confident with their attacks. Good for you guys!

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #67 on: December 29, 2015, 08:10:02 PM »
...
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 08:12:48 PM by ReadySetMillionaire »

Villanelle

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #68 on: December 29, 2015, 08:11:27 PM »
Um, you also specifically said "Don't ask".

tj

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #69 on: December 29, 2015, 08:39:05 PM »
Um, you also specifically said "Don't ask".


He was trying to make a point. I can tell you the number of times a woman has kissed me after I asked if I could or stated that I would lie to, and that would be zero. It would be incredibly hard for such a statement to not kill the moment, as kelsey said earlier. That doesn't mean you force yourself on them. Actually, two of the three women I kissed were the initiators. If you have the courage to initiate, you should. The worst that can happen is she says she's not interested or not ready.

Villanelle

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #70 on: December 29, 2015, 09:31:34 PM »
Um, you also specifically said "Don't ask".


He was trying to make a point. I can tell you the number of times a woman has kissed me after I asked if I could or stated that I would lie to, and that would be zero. It would be incredibly hard for such a statement to not kill the moment, as kelsey said earlier. That doesn't mean you force yourself on them. Actually, two of the three women I kissed were the initiators. If you have the courage to initiate, you should. The worst that can happen is she says she's not interested or not ready.

And yet several women in this thread have said that not only would it not kill the moment, but that they would find the question actively attractive. 

If someone doesn't want to ask, that's fine.  But for a man to state that women like a aggressor, despite what they say, is a gross generalization, in addition to being ridiculous because it suggests a man knows better than women (and all women, apparently) what women want.  Can you really not see how that is silly, and how it goes far beyond an opinion about whether to ask before a kiss, something I think reasonable people can definitely disagree about?

tj

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #71 on: December 29, 2015, 09:54:55 PM »
Um, you also specifically said "Don't ask".


He was trying to make a point. I can tell you the number of times a woman has kissed me after I asked if I could or stated that I would lie to, and that would be zero. It would be incredibly hard for such a statement to not kill the moment, as kelsey said earlier. That doesn't mean you force yourself on them. Actually, two of the three women I kissed were the initiators. If you have the courage to initiate, you should. The worst that can happen is she says she's not interested or not ready.

And yet several women in this thread have said that not only would it not kill the moment, but that they would find the question actively attractive. 

If someone doesn't want to ask, that's fine.  But for a man to state that women like a aggressor, despite what they say, is a gross generalization, in addition to being ridiculous because it suggests a man knows better than women (and all women, apparently) what women want.  Can you really not see how that is silly, and how it goes far beyond an opinion about whether to ask before a kiss, something I think reasonable people can definitely disagree about?

There are several stories of women being unhappy in relationships or leaving the relationship altogether because the men are too passive. Everyone needs to do whats best for them and their partner.  The OP should not be taking advice from the women you reference in this thread IMO. The way the world works today, unfortunately the guy who doesn't make a move, often ends up alone because the girl is tired of waiting and not knowing if the guy is into her or not. I've had women tell me this all the time. I tell them to make the move if they are into them, but they don't. That's the social norm, every now and then, you'll find a take-charge woman, but it's pretty rare.

Villanelle

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #72 on: December 29, 2015, 10:37:57 PM »
Um, you also specifically said "Don't ask".


He was trying to make a point. I can tell you the number of times a woman has kissed me after I asked if I could or stated that I would lie to, and that would be zero. It would be incredibly hard for such a statement to not kill the moment, as kelsey said earlier. That doesn't mean you force yourself on them. Actually, two of the three women I kissed were the initiators. If you have the courage to initiate, you should. The worst that can happen is she says she's not interested or not ready.

And yet several women in this thread have said that not only would it not kill the moment, but that they would find the question actively attractive. 

If someone doesn't want to ask, that's fine.  But for a man to state that women like a aggressor, despite what they say, is a gross generalization, in addition to being ridiculous because it suggests a man knows better than women (and all women, apparently) what women want.  Can you really not see how that is silly, and how it goes far beyond an opinion about whether to ask before a kiss, something I think reasonable people can definitely disagree about?

There are several stories of women being unhappy in relationships or leaving the relationship altogether because the men are too passive. Everyone needs to do whats best for them and their partner.  The OP should not be taking advice from the women you reference in this thread IMO. The way the world works today, unfortunately the guy who doesn't make a move, often ends up alone because the girl is tired of waiting and not knowing if the guy is into her or not. I've had women tell me this all the time. I tell them to make the move if they are into them, but they don't. That's the social norm, every now and then, you'll find a take-charge woman, but it's pretty rare.

And there are many stories of women ending relationships because men are too aggressive.  Which proves the point that no one should be make gross generalizations about what women want.   You've had a certain experience with women about not making moves, but you too seem to want to generalize.  I can list dozens of women who have respected a buy who waits, or who have made the first move themselves.  Why do you seem to discount those?  You seem to have a desired outcome, and then put weight only on the stories that confirm it.  Sure, some women like super aggressive man. Some women might find it weird to be asked about a kiss.  Absolutely.  And some women are very turned off by super aggressive men, and they would find a request for a kiss to be sexy and very attractive.  And no, that isn't rare. 

tj

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #73 on: December 29, 2015, 11:06:21 PM »
Quote
You seem to have a desired outcome, and then put weight only on the stories that confirm it.  Sure, some women like super aggressive man. Some women might find it weird to be asked about a kiss.  Absolutely.  And some women are very turned off by super aggressive men, and they would find a request for a kiss to be sexy and very attractive.  And no, that isn't rare.

I don't have a desired outcome, I have my experiences from my surroundings, which is all any of us have. This isn't a gender thing. It'd be just as weird if a woman asked a man if she could kiss him instead of just going for it. Most people in this thread seem to find it to be odd as a deviation from normal conversation.

I don't see any reason to take the chance of not making a move when you are clearly into someone and wondering if they are also into you. Obviously the logical thing would be to discuss it, but that is not how most humans are, so unless you want to risk that your dream girl is an oddball that would prefer to discuss the idea of romantic gestures rather than just experiencing one, I'd suggest making the move. But that's just me.

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #74 on: December 29, 2015, 11:50:05 PM »
Um, you also specifically said "Don't ask".


He was trying to make a point. I can tell you the number of times a woman has kissed me after I asked if I could or stated that I would lie to, and that would be zero. It would be incredibly hard for such a statement to not kill the moment, as kelsey said earlier. That doesn't mean you force yourself on them. Actually, two of the three women I kissed were the initiators. If you have the courage to initiate, you should. The worst that can happen is she says she's not interested or not ready.

And yet several women in this thread have said that not only would it not kill the moment, but that they would find the question actively attractive. 

If someone doesn't want to ask, that's fine.  But for a man to state that women like a aggressor, despite what they say, is a gross generalization, in addition to being ridiculous because it suggests a man knows better than women (and all women, apparently) what women want.  Can you really not see how that is silly, and how it goes far beyond an opinion about whether to ask before a kiss, something I think reasonable people can definitely disagree about?

There are several stories of women being unhappy in relationships or leaving the relationship altogether because the men are too passive. Everyone needs to do whats best for them and their partner.  The OP should not be taking advice from the women you reference in this thread IMO. The way the world works today, unfortunately the guy who doesn't make a move, often ends up alone because the girl is tired of waiting and not knowing if the guy is into her or not. I've had women tell me this all the time. I tell them to make the move if they are into them, but they don't. That's the social norm, every now and then, you'll find a take-charge woman, but it's pretty rare.

It's interesting to me that you seem to be equating 'asking for consent' with 'not making a move'.  I agree that if you don't make a move you will end up alone, but I think that asking for consent before a kiss is just as much a move as kissing someone without expressed consent.

Astatine

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #75 on: December 30, 2015, 12:12:20 AM »
Thanks everyone!

On a side note, when you meet someone through online dating, when does it become a "relationship?" This is the first time I've met someone from a dating site that lasted beyond a first meeting, and it's really different from a traditional relationship. With traditional relationships, I've asked a lady out, she said yes/no, we went on the date, and maybe had a second one, after that we generally have a good idea if we want to keep seeing each other, particularly if we have common friends (which can help gauge if the other person is interested me, and vice versa).

Thus far, I think it's clear that we like each other. The last two times we saw each other we hugged upon seeing each other and saying good bye and have texted multiple times daily. At the museum, we were holding hands at various points. Do you think I can assume that we are in a relationship? I know that I have no interest in pursuing anyone else for now, but I haven't spoken to her about this.

Ask her, talk about it.

I don't think online dating is any different than going on a blind date with someone or starting to date after just meeting someone. DH and I decided we were in a relationship at the end of date 2. Date 1 we were both awkward as hell. Date 2 we were mostly over the awkwardness and we clicked.

MgoSam

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #76 on: December 30, 2015, 03:29:24 AM »
Thank you everyone, I've been following this discussion and trying to absorb as much before saying anything more. I think the tone is getting a little uncivil, and would prefer it to remain respectful. We all have had different experiences in dating, and that can skew how we approach it and the advice that we dispense.

I've spoken to all my close female friends about dating because I like to get their advice. In the past, my personality has been to be more aggressive when it comes to dating, which sometimes has worked out but more often didn't. I instead went to the reverse, thinking that would be better, and it also didn't work. I realized only about a year or so ago in a previous relationship was that it wasn't exactly my approach that failed, but rather my inability to gauge what my date wanted and what she was feeling before making a move. Of course, my approach makes a big impact on how my date views me, but if I don't take her thoughts and desires into consideration, there can be little happiness. I may not have worded the past sentence perfectly, I'm not very good at expressing myself in words, but in short, I need to listen more and talk less.

Among my female friends, there is near consensus that they feel that the guy should take the lead in most cases. They expect a guy to ask them to out first, that they shouldn't be the one initiating the first date and that if they do so, they feel that the guy won't ever take the lead. Personally, I do like it when a women asks out a guy. I don't know if the person I am seeing feels the same way, but in our past conversations, it is clear that she comes from a traditional background, so there's a large probability that she feels that I should be taking the lead. I think this past Sunday at the museum worked out well, I didn't throw my hand around her, but instead put my hand lightly on her back and gauged her reaction. If she didn't seem at all uncomfortable, I would have withdrawn my hand and avoided contact. When she reacted positively, I didn't try to press her further, but allowed her to make the next move, if she was inclined to do so, and to my delight she did so. We held hands as I walked her to her car, which amusingly was parked right next to mine. I gave her a hug before saying goodbye and she hugged me back fairly heartily. I believe that if I had tried to lean in for a kiss, she would have reciprocated.  It's possible that she wanted me to kiss her.

I'm more worried now about seeing passive in her eyes. I don't know her dating history, nor what she is looking for in a guy, but I do feel confident that she does like me and would like to spend more time with me. I'm perfectly willing to wait to kiss her for the right mood, but feel that she was looking for me to kiss her on Sunday, or on our last outing(when we were food packing for a charity). I don't really feel comfortable asking her, "I would like to kiss you, may I?," though perhaps many of you are correct in that she may love hearing that.

I've invited her to my friend's New Year party and she is willing to go, she's nervous about being around people she doesn't know. Thankfully my friend's party is going to be a mix of games and general hanging out, which is putting it at ease (ie, she won't need to just stand around talking to people she doesn't know or staying by my side and being introduced to a ton of people). I'm an extrovert and she's an introvert, so this is understandable. She hasn't offered to invite me to any of her friend's parties, but I would be willing to go. If we don't see each other for NY, then I plan to ask her out to dinner this weekend, I want to wait to talk to her about NY before planning further. If she does come to NY, I hope she will have a good time. Maybe she'll be looking for me to kiss her when the ball drops, maybe not, but I'll do my best to gauge her interest and body language before I lean in for a kiss. Either way, I just want to spend more time with her to get to know her better.

Bucksandreds

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #77 on: December 30, 2015, 05:54:58 AM »
Um, you also specifically said "Don't ask".


He was trying to make a point. I can tell you the number of times a woman has kissed me after I asked if I could or stated that I would lie to, and that would be zero. It would be incredibly hard for such a statement to not kill the moment, as kelsey said earlier. That doesn't mean you force yourself on them. Actually, two of the three women I kissed were the initiators. If you have the courage to initiate, you should. The worst that can happen is she says she's not interested or not ready.

And yet several women in this thread have said that not only would it not kill the moment, but that they would find the question actively attractive. 

If someone doesn't want to ask, that's fine.  But for a man to state that women like a aggressor, despite what they say, is a gross generalization, in addition to being ridiculous because it suggests a man knows better than women (and all women, apparently) what women want.  Can you really not see how that is silly, and how it goes far beyond an opinion about whether to ask before a kiss, something I think reasonable people can definitely disagree about?

Yet study after study disagrees with you.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/head-games/201305/the-allure-aggressive-men
http://elitedaily.com/dating/science-women-nice-guys/1000116/


Bucksandreds

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #78 on: December 30, 2015, 05:59:15 AM »
Quote
You seem to have a desired outcome, and then put weight only on the stories that confirm it.  Sure, some women like super aggressive man. Some women might find it weird to be asked about a kiss.  Absolutely.  And some women are very turned off by super aggressive men, and they would find a request for a kiss to be sexy and very attractive.  And no, that isn't rare.

I don't have a desired outcome, I have my experiences from my surroundings, which is all any of us have. This isn't a gender thing. It'd be just as weird if a woman asked a man if she could kiss him instead of just going for it. Most people in this thread seem to find it to be odd as a deviation from normal conversation.

I don't see any reason to take the chance of not making a move when you are clearly into someone and wondering if they are also into you. Obviously the logical thing would be to discuss it, but that is not how most humans are, so unless you want to risk that your dream girl is an oddball that would prefer to discuss the idea of romantic gestures rather than just experiencing one, I'd suggest making the move. But that's just me.

Be careful. The feminist, PC, Outrage crowd is on to you. Saying what they don't want to hear causes extreme anger and vicious outbursts.

MOD NOTE: Forum rule #1.  This post adds nothing to the forum, is purposefully inflammatory, and rude.  Stop.  If you have an opinion, you're more than welcome to politely share it.  Insulting others is not okay.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2015, 06:06:35 AM by arebelspy »

onlykelsey

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #79 on: December 30, 2015, 06:36:30 AM »
If we don't see each other for NY, then I plan to ask her out to dinner this weekend, I want to wait to talk to her about NY before planning further. If she does come to NY, I hope she will have a good time. Maybe she'll be looking for me to kiss her when the ball drops, maybe not, but I'll do my best to gauge her interest and body language before I lean in for a kiss. Either way, I just want to spend more time with her to get to know her better.

It's definitely getting less than civil here.  But I think your approach is right on, and talking to your female friends who are in the dating scene and in your age group is a great idea.  It sounds like you're reading signals and giving them out just fine.

When I was doing online dating, the sort of "passive" that bothered me (and my mid- late-20s friends) was of the "what do you want to do tonight?"  "I don't know, whatever." "What do you want to do?" sort.  Actually, that sort of bothered me dating a Minnesotan for five years, as a more assertive east coast Yankee type, haha.  All the more reason that discussing with female friends in your city is important

Hope you have a great new year's eve!

Bucksandreds

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #80 on: December 30, 2015, 06:58:41 AM »
Quote
You seem to have a desired outcome, and then put weight only on the stories that confirm it.  Sure, some women like super aggressive man. Some women might find it weird to be asked about a kiss.  Absolutely.  And some women are very turned off by super aggressive men, and they would find a request for a kiss to be sexy and very attractive.  And no, that isn't rare.

I don't have a desired outcome, I have my experiences from my surroundings, which is all any of us have. This isn't a gender thing. It'd be just as weird if a woman asked a man if she could kiss him instead of just going for it. Most people in this thread seem to find it to be odd as a deviation from normal conversation.

I don't see any reason to take the chance of not making a move when you are clearly into someone and wondering if they are also into you. Obviously the logical thing would be to discuss it, but that is not how most humans are, so unless you want to risk that your dream girl is an oddball that would prefer to discuss the idea of romantic gestures rather than just experiencing one, I'd suggest making the move. But that's just me.

Be careful. The feminist, PC, Outrage crowd is on to you. Saying what they don't want to hear causes extreme anger and vicious outbursts.

MOD NOTE: Forum rule #1.  This post adds nothing to the forum, is purposefully inflammatory, and rude.  Stop.  If you have an opinion, you're more than welcome to politely share it.  Insulting others is not okay.

Yet earlier someone calling my opinion 'absolute fucking bullshit' telling me to stop posting and saying that those words were the tamest response that they could come up with after I attacked no one is ok?

JLee

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #81 on: December 30, 2015, 07:36:33 AM »
Um, you also specifically said "Don't ask".
He was trying to make a point. I can tell you the number of times a woman has kissed me after I asked if I could or stated that I would lie to, and that would be zero. It would be incredibly hard for such a statement to not kill the moment, as kelsey said earlier. That doesn't mean you force yourself on them. Actually, two of the three women I kissed were the initiators. If you have the courage to initiate, you should. The worst that can happen is she says she's not interested or not ready.

Anecdotal experiences are going to vary wildly (just as different women want different things). I can remember at least three times I've asked (it's always been yes). More often than not I don't ask (as I explained earlier), but it certainly has its place. Each person is different and each situation is different - that's why one blanket guideline will not work. The overarching assumption that women want you to "take what you want" is harmful.

Mmm_Donuts

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #82 on: December 30, 2015, 08:12:30 AM »
Um, you also specifically said "Don't ask".


He was trying to make a point. I can tell you the number of times a woman has kissed me after I asked if I could or stated that I would lie to, and that would be zero. It would be incredibly hard for such a statement to not kill the moment, as kelsey said earlier. That doesn't mean you force yourself on them. Actually, two of the three women I kissed were the initiators. If you have the courage to initiate, you should. The worst that can happen is she says she's not interested or not ready.

And yet several women in this thread have said that not only would it not kill the moment, but that they would find the question actively attractive. 

If someone doesn't want to ask, that's fine.  But for a man to state that women like a aggressor, despite what they say, is a gross generalization, in addition to being ridiculous because it suggests a man knows better than women (and all women, apparently) what women want.  Can you really not see how that is silly, and how it goes far beyond an opinion about whether to ask before a kiss, something I think reasonable people can definitely disagree about?

Yet study after study disagrees with you.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/head-games/201305/the-allure-aggressive-men
http://elitedaily.com/dating/science-women-nice-guys/1000116/

Lol... Did you read the articles you posted? They don't actually back your "theory"

 
Quote
At the same time, it is important to underscore that these men were preferred as short-term mates. Dominant men who derive pleasure from being aggressive deliver scant relationship benefits because they pose a threat to the family, show decreased parental investment, and have affairs. Consequently, and as expected, the women in this study preferred less aggressive men for long-term relationships.

And the second article was just silly.


tj

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #83 on: December 30, 2015, 08:44:13 AM »
Um, you also specifically said "Don't ask".
He was trying to make a point. I can tell you the number of times a woman has kissed me after I asked if I could or stated that I would lie to, and that would be zero. It would be incredibly hard for such a statement to not kill the moment, as kelsey said earlier. That doesn't mean you force yourself on them. Actually, two of the three women I kissed were the initiators. If you have the courage to initiate, you should. The worst that can happen is she says she's not interested or not ready.

Anecdotal experiences are going to vary wildly (just as different women want different things). I can remember at least three times I've asked (it's always been yes). More often than not I don't ask (as I explained earlier), but it certainly has its place. Each person is different and each situation is different - that's why one blanket guideline will not work. The overarching assumption that women want you to "take what you want" is harmful.

This might be an issue of interpretation. "Take what you want" was clearly embellishment to make a point. I mean, a few sentences later the dude basically said to back off if it's not clear that she's also into it. I don't think any reasonable person would think that one should just take advantage of someone, as the implications of that is obviously not okay.

And to the person said I am equating "asking for content" with "making a move". No,  I'm rejecting that one needs to ask for consent before kissing. Because that is kind of ridiculous. If one has mono, then they probably should be asking for consent. Otherwise, go for it. Or don't. Doesn't matter to me. Its hard for me to imagine being into a woman who felt that rigidly and that one should seek permission before showing physical affection. That is not culturally normal, I don't intend to make a judgment on it, it's just not for me.

I also would hesitate to take advice from females who are friends but not partners. That didn't work out so well for me either. It sounds like what OP has been doing is fine, so I would say keep doing what you are doing.

Bucksandreds

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #84 on: December 30, 2015, 09:02:19 AM »
Funny thing is that I did read them.  What part about it explaining that women report wanting nice guys but when it comes to actual physical relations,  the nice guy ends up by himself don't you understand? Nothing in this life needs to ever be extreme or permanent personality trait.  A man is FAR more likely to attract a mate (the point of relationship that this OP is in) if he acts like the alpha male (aggressive.) in the long run he may be more likely to maintain the relationship by being the nice guy.  Being the nice guy just won't open enough doors with enough women to get to the life partner point.  What about those studies don't you understand?

Um, you also specifically said "Don't ask".


He was trying to make a point. I can tell you the number of times a woman has kissed me after I asked if I could or stated that I would lie to, and that would be zero. It would be incredibly hard for such a statement to not kill the moment, as kelsey said earlier. That doesn't mean you force yourself on them. Actually, two of the three women I kissed were the initiators. If you have the courage to initiate, you should. The worst that can happen is she says she's not interested or not ready.

And yet several women in this thread have said that not only would it not kill the moment, but that they would find the question actively attractive. 

If someone doesn't want to ask, that's fine.  But for a man to state that women like a aggressor, despite what they say, is a gross generalization, in addition to being ridiculous because it suggests a man knows better than women (and all women, apparently) what women want.  Can you really not see how that is silly, and how it goes far beyond an opinion about whether to ask before a kiss, something I think reasonable people can definitely disagree about?

Yet study after study disagrees with you.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/head-games/201305/the-allure-aggressive-men
http://elitedaily.com/dating/science-women-nice-guys/1000116/

Lol... Did you read the articles you posted? They don't actually back your "theory"

 
Quote
At the same time, it is important to underscore that these men were preferred as short-term mates. Dominant men who derive pleasure from being aggressive deliver scant relationship benefits because they pose a threat to the family, show decreased parental investment, and have affairs. Consequently, and as expected, the women in this study preferred less aggressive men for long-term relationships.

And the second article was just silly.

AlwaysLearningToSave

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #85 on: December 30, 2015, 09:18:15 AM »

. . .

I've invited her to my friend's New Year party and she is willing to go, she's nervous about being around people she doesn't know. Thankfully my friend's party is going to be a mix of games and general hanging out, which is putting it at ease (ie, she won't need to just stand around talking to people she doesn't know or staying by my side and being introduced to a ton of people). I'm an extrovert and she's an introvert, so this is understandable. She hasn't offered to invite me to any of her friend's parties, but I would be willing to go. If we don't see each other for NY, then I plan to ask her out to dinner this weekend, I want to wait to talk to her about NY before planning further. If she does come to NY, I hope she will have a good time. Maybe she'll be looking for me to kiss her when the ball drops, maybe not, but I'll do my best to gauge her interest and body language before I lean in for a kiss. Either way, I just want to spend more time with her to get to know her better.

You've got it under control.  The key is the balance between being bold enough to take the next step but also sensitive enough to make sure she's comfortable with it.

A New Years party date would be perfect-- you have a built in excuse to initiate a (quick) kiss.  If you go to a party together, I'd bet a whole lot that she'll be expecting a kiss.  She's probably smart enough to know that traditionally New Years = kissing, so if she isn't comfortable with that, she won't go to a New Years party with you.  But note that if new years party plans don't work out, it doesn't necessarily mean that she doesn't want to kiss you. 

If you go on a formal dinner date, to me that also equals good night kiss.  Again the fact she would agree to go on a formal dinner date with you after having had several more casual dates indicates she is into you, almost certainly enough to want to kiss you.  If she weren't that into you, she probably would have cut it off before the formal dinner date. 

Don't give too much thought to whether nor not to ask before kissing.  If it works for you and you think you can pull it off without breaking the mood, great.  If not, don't worry about it and proceed as you have already done, taking a small step and gauging her reaction/reciprocation before proceeding further.  I would be willing to bet that most of the women who would think it was romantic/gentlemanly/sexy for a guy to ask before kissing would not write off a guy they wanted to kiss simply because he didn't ask before going in for the first kiss.

Mmm_Donuts

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #86 on: December 30, 2015, 09:20:50 AM »
Bucksand, it's not me who has the comprehension problem. Read the part of the article that I quoted. To summarize, it says that women do not tend to choose the aggressive male for long term mates. The second article was, as I said, basically a gossip opinion piece, but even there she talks about short term appeal of the "bad guy."

Btw, I am happily married to a "nice guy", and never found assholes attractive, so I agree with the gist of the first article that aggressive males are not appealing choices for a long term partner.

I read the OP as more of a relationship query than a "how can I get laid" question.

purple monkey

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #87 on: December 30, 2015, 10:02:29 AM »
Wow. Even with the OP asking for civility, folks still hijacking and wanting to fight.
Come on now.
OP, sounds like you are on target for next steps.
As for MMM information, wait a little while and slowly mention FI when there is an obvious opening.
Good luck IRL, cause sometimes the posters here get caught up more with being RIGHT than being helpful.
Cheers!

mm1970

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #88 on: December 30, 2015, 10:42:55 AM »

To be clear, my post above was not making any kind of legal argument, and this post is not either. The only reason I cited these Canadian authorities is to make the point that seeking consent before touching somebody is not "a new thing". The fact that this concept has been a part of the law for a long time shows that it is not new. It is part of being a member of a civilised society.

I'm still lost at what you are trying to saying. I don't want to kiss her, or anyone for that matter, without them also wanting me to do so, but for the first kiss, it would feel entirely unromantic to turn to her and say, "May I kiss you?"

While we were at the museum, there were a ton of people at the exhibit and I lightly put my arm on her back to stay with her as we were trying to find a spot to get a good view of the painting that the guide was talking about. I could see her smile at the contact and later she put her arm around me. I think this worked rather well.

Don't ask.  As much as girls might tell people otherwise they instinctually want an aggressive mate who takes what they want.  Now if you try to take what you want (first go in for the kiss and see if she does too, etc to next step ,etc) and they say no or stop then you stop.  That really would just mean that they're not that in to you.  This one is in to you by the looks of it.  Go take what you want.  As for explaining your financial philosophy, spend enough to show her you value her and your time with her.  Also don't spend lavishly to look like someone youre not.  Once she really knows you after 6 months to a year of dating then she'll be ready to see that you save your money because you value her and your time with her so much that you want more of it.
Hm... my husband was definitely of the "asking first" variety, and I definitely appreciated that and preferred it actually.

Don't paint all WOMEN with the same brush.  We aren't girls.  And fuck aggressive a-holes.  But not literally.

Villanelle

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #89 on: December 30, 2015, 10:51:34 AM »
It sounds like you have a great plan, OP, and that things are going well.

I would gently caution you to be a little careful about worrying how you appear, or trying to figure out what kind of man she wants, as opposed to being yourself, acting naturally, and either attracting her, or not.  While acting more naturally will probably mean more false starts and ended relationships, in the end, it is going to have the best likelihood of long term success, because long term you can't really sustain "acting" instead of "being".  Really, it doesn't matter if 99% of women want an aggressive guy long term (to be clear, I don't think that's remotely true).  Either you are that guy, or you aren't.  And you don't have to please 99% of women.  You only have to please one.  If this girl, as great as she is, wants a traditional guy and you aren't that, she's probably not the one, any more than if you want a frugal girl (or some other attribute) and she's not, then she's probably not the one for you.  She could act frugal and pretend to appreciate the ills of hedonistic adaptation, but that's unlikely to last and in a year, she's going to want to crank up the AC, if that's who she truly is at heart.

And that's why "approaches" and games and all that rarely lead to long term success.  Sure, it seems to get some people laid, by certain types of women.  But it doesn't seem to lead to healthy, long term, quietly happy marriages.  Because people are pretending to be other than they are, and in a 50 year marriage, that's going to be impossible to maintain. 

Bucksandreds

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #90 on: December 30, 2015, 11:05:23 AM »
You continue to ignore my point that both articles indicate that women will tell people that they want 'the nice guy' but when it comes to the initial traits that result in physical intimacy, the aggressive male tends to nearly always be more successful. I am married with 2 children and live my life now as a part time daycare giver as well as lacking any aggressive traits toward female relations. My wife and family needs that now. I was not like that 10 years ago and would have struggled greatly in the initial attraction aspect with the vast majority of women, including my wife, if I had acted as 'the nice guy.'  Of course there are exceptions and your relationship may be one. All science indicates that what I'm claiming is correct and I've never read or experienced anything to contraindicate that.
Bucksand, it's not me who has the comprehension problem. Read the part of the article that I quoted. To summarize, it says that women do not tend to choose the aggressive male for long term mates. The second article was, as I said, basically a gossip opinion piece, but even there she talks about short term appeal of the "bad guy."

Btw, I am happily married to a "nice guy", and never found assholes attractive, so I agree with the gist of the first article that aggressive males are not appealing choices for a long term partner.

I read the OP as more of a relationship query than a "how can I get laid" question.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2015, 11:07:12 AM by Bucksandreds »

Mmm_Donuts

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #91 on: December 30, 2015, 11:41:32 AM »
Bucksand, you talk as if you have a choice in your behaviour, and women do not. That is the part of your argument that is so offensive.

"Science" may have an aggressive behaviour / pheromone theory, but real live women have choices to act on physical instincts, or not. Maybe when hormones are out of control, young people (male and female) will act more instinctively, but as they get older they make more conscious choices. Women are not hormone-driven automatons. We have rational minds, and most can see through the asshole / arrogant exterior from a mile away, and avoid it because it's not rationally attractive to them.


Gin1984

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #92 on: December 30, 2015, 11:49:26 AM »
Um, you also specifically said "Don't ask".


He was trying to make a point. I can tell you the number of times a woman has kissed me after I asked if I could or stated that I would lie to, and that would be zero. It would be incredibly hard for such a statement to not kill the moment, as kelsey said earlier. That doesn't mean you force yourself on them. Actually, two of the three women I kissed were the initiators. If you have the courage to initiate, you should. The worst that can happen is she says she's not interested or not ready.

And yet several women in this thread have said that not only would it not kill the moment, but that they would find the question actively attractive. 

If someone doesn't want to ask, that's fine.  But for a man to state that women like a aggressor, despite what they say, is a gross generalization, in addition to being ridiculous because it suggests a man knows better than women (and all women, apparently) what women want.  Can you really not see how that is silly, and how it goes far beyond an opinion about whether to ask before a kiss, something I think reasonable people can definitely disagree about?

Yet study after study disagrees with you.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/head-games/201305/the-allure-aggressive-men
http://elitedaily.com/dating/science-women-nice-guys/1000116/
Can you actually cite the study, not a news article.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2015, 11:52:47 AM by Gin1984 »

Apples

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #93 on: December 30, 2015, 12:33:33 PM »
OP, congrats on dating!  Just keep making plans, and eventually y'all will decide you're "in a realationship".  Your plans for NYE sound fun.  The money talk, like others have said, should come up along with discussions about the future, goals, etc.  As to all the aggressive/consent asking stuff on here...don't let it mess with your head.  You seem to be pretty self-aware, so that always helps in these situations!  Also, pro tip:

Awkward:  Walking along, holding hands, suddenly turn to gf and say "i would like to kiss you.  can i?"
Not Awkward:  walking along, holding hands and chatting.  Slowing down and looking into each others eyes, chatting or not.  Leaning in and saying/whispering "can I kiss you?"  or "I want to kiss you." Same situation for sitting on the couch, boxing  food for charity, roller blading, shoveling snow.  Eventually you won't have to ask, but I'm a firm believer that the first time you do anything, it doesn't hurt to ask/say your intention.  Though you're free to take her very strong hints if she's giving them, say, on NYE. 

You got this. :)

rockstache

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #94 on: December 30, 2015, 12:41:23 PM »
MgoSam, it sounds like she is into you and you are reading her pretty well. My only comment would be if you have the chance to kiss her BEFORE the ball drops, that you do that instead. It will take the pressure off of midnight being the very first kiss and awkwardness.

Bucksandreds

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #95 on: December 30, 2015, 06:14:55 PM »
Bucksand, you talk as if you have a choice in your behaviour, and women do not. That is the part of your argument that is so offensive.

"Science" may have an aggressive behaviour / pheromone theory, but real live women have choices to act on physical instincts, or not. Maybe when hormones are out of control, young people (male and female) will act more instinctively, but as they get older they make more conscious choices. Women are not hormone-driven automatons. We have rational minds, and most can see through the asshole / arrogant exterior from a mile away, and avoid it because it's not rationally attractive to them.

Who said women have no choice in the matter? Who said women don't know how to play the game in the female way to attract the guys that they want? Who said being non verbally assertive with women is asshole/arrogant behavioral?  Verbally asking for permission is a suicidal dating approach.  Passive men don't get action.  It's not my opinion. Everything out there backs it up.  Everyone pretends to some degree every day.  People go to work and pretend to be nice to their boss or client. People pretend to care about things that they don't all of the time.  Why would making an impression on someone in a dating setting whom you do not know extremely well be any different?  Successful people act the way that gets them what they want in all aspects of life.  It's fine to be a passive male in many ways once the relationship has entered a phase where both parties know each other inside out. Passivity is a recipe for being passed over for a male in the dating scene.

Cookie78

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #96 on: December 30, 2015, 08:10:54 PM »
It sounds like you have a great plan, OP, and that things are going well.

I would gently caution you to be a little careful about worrying how you appear, or trying to figure out what kind of man she wants, as opposed to being yourself, acting naturally, and either attracting her, or not.  While acting more naturally will probably mean more false starts and ended relationships, in the end, it is going to have the best likelihood of long term success, because long term you can't really sustain "acting" instead of "being".  Really, it doesn't matter if 99% of women want an aggressive guy long term (to be clear, I don't think that's remotely true).  Either you are that guy, or you aren't.  And you don't have to please 99% of women.  You only have to please one.  If this girl, as great as she is, wants a traditional guy and you aren't that, she's probably not the one, any more than if you want a frugal girl (or some other attribute) and she's not, then she's probably not the one for you.  She could act frugal and pretend to appreciate the ills of hedonistic adaptation, but that's unlikely to last and in a year, she's going to want to crank up the AC, if that's who she truly is at heart.

And that's why "approaches" and games and all that rarely lead to long term success.  Sure, it seems to get some people laid, by certain types of women.  But it doesn't seem to lead to healthy, long term, quietly happy marriages.  Because people are pretending to be other than they are, and in a 50 year marriage, that's going to be impossible to maintain.

I really enjoyed this post and I agree completely. :)


Cookie78

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #97 on: December 30, 2015, 08:31:28 PM »

To be clear, my post above was not making any kind of legal argument, and this post is not either. The only reason I cited these Canadian authorities is to make the point that seeking consent before touching somebody is not "a new thing". The fact that this concept has been a part of the law for a long time shows that it is not new. It is part of being a member of a civilised society.

I'm still lost at what you are trying to saying. I don't want to kiss her, or anyone for that matter, without them also wanting me to do so, but for the first kiss, it would feel entirely unromantic to turn to her and say, "May I kiss you?"

While we were at the museum, there were a ton of people at the exhibit and I lightly put my arm on her back to stay with her as we were trying to find a spot to get a good view of the painting that the guide was talking about. I could see her smile at the contact and later she put her arm around me. I think this worked rather well.

Don't ask.  As much as girls might tell people otherwise they instinctually want an aggressive mate who takes what they want.  Now if you try to take what you want (first go in for the kiss and see if she does too, etc to next step ,etc) and they say no or stop then you stop.  That really would just mean that they're not that in to you.  This one is in to you by the looks of it.  Go take what you want.  As for explaining your financial philosophy, spend enough to show her you value her and your time with her.  Also don't spend lavishly to look like someone youre not.  Once she really knows you after 6 months to a year of dating then she'll be ready to see that you save your money because you value her and your time with her so much that you want more of it.
Hm... my husband was definitely of the "asking first" variety, and I definitely appreciated that and preferred it actually.

Don't paint all WOMEN with the same brush.  We aren't girls.  And fuck aggressive a-holes.  But not literally.
It's funny because last night I was channel flipping and came across the old Rocky movie right at the part where he first kisses Adrian. Both are obviously wanting to kiss but Rocky says (insert lust-filled heavy breathing) "I really want to kiss you" before they kiss. It was pretty steamy and a nice approach even if it was pretty damn obvious they both wanted to kiss. Fortunately he didn't break the mood and say "Yo Adrian" before telling her he wanted to kiss her :-)!

The last first kiss I had from a guy was similar to this. In a hot tub after a great conversation for hours. He didn't phrase it as a question, but I said 'yes!' before he finished his sentence. Hot.

The previous first kiss I asked her, but not directly. Fallen down on my bed, noses already touching.. "Do you like kisses too?" I knew damn well what the answer would be.

I don't know why some people in this discussion assume that asking for consent is passive in any way, or that it has to be awkward. If you are insecure and awkward when you ask, ya, it'll be awkward.

However maybe it shouldn't be that hard for me to understand. Before I started actually doing it (from both sides), I used to think it would be crazy awkward if someone asked me instead of just kissing me. In reality it's rarely as awkward as I'd first imagined.

Celda

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #98 on: December 30, 2015, 10:25:00 PM »
Don't ever ask if you can hold someone's hand on a date. Mostly because if you actually feel a need to, then your social skills are so inept that it would be almost impossible for a date to go well.

That's not to say that verbal check-ins are always bad. However, most of the time you shouldn't need them.

And in general, do not get dating advice from anyone who has never tried to date the same people you are.

E.g., if you are looking to date gay men, don't get dating advice from straight men or women - they have never tried to date gay men. Only take advice from bisexual men or gay men.

Ann

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #99 on: December 30, 2015, 11:13:00 PM »
And in general, do not get dating advice from anyone who has never tried to date the same people you are.

E.g., if you are looking to date gay men, don't get dating advice from straight men or women - they have never tried to date gay men. Only take advice from bisexual men or gay men.


The fallacy with that example is you would be asking neither a person who has tried to date the demographic NOR the demographic itself.  Maybe a gay man would have some insight into how HE would like to be courted himself, not just because he dates gay men.  I think input from both sides is useful, and keep in mind there IS no uniform answer -- which is why sweeping generalizations irritate me (and I suspect others as well).

Personally, I like men who actively PURSUE what they want.  Men who just "take" what they want are too far on the aggression spectrum.

I think asking or giving consent  can be done non verbally.  Has anyone seen "Hitch", the Will Smith movie?  His first kiss advice was to go "90% of the way" - leaving her to go the remaining 10%.  You aren't "taking" a kiss - she still has her part to act on in order for it to happen.  Yes, it would be super awkward if she didn't want to. But no less so than having to reply "no" to a question about being kissed.

I have been asked to be kissed before.  It was awkward (and I did want to be kissed at that time), but then in retrospect the guy was awkward.  I'm sure it can be done in a sexy way.