Author Topic: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?  (Read 20026 times)

MgoSam

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Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« on: December 27, 2015, 07:41:51 PM »
Hey,

I met someone a few weeks ago and we've gone on 3 days and texted a ton. I like her and I think that she likes me, she's planning to come to my friend's NY party.

We have talked about quite a few things openly, but haven't yet discussed life-plans and finances. I think that it would be a good idea to see if she is like-minded in terms of willing to consider early retirement. It may be something that she's never thought about, but might be open to it once she hears more. I don't think I should do it now, but would like to do it as finances are a deal-breaker for me. I haven't had a way to gauge her interest or see if is good with her money. Our first date was for coffee, the second wasn't quite a date but I help pack food for a charity and she came and joined me in doing so, and just earlier today we went to a museum exhibit that we both wanted to go (bonus, she got the tickets for free through work!).

I realize I likely am thinking way too far ahead, but I would rather discuss it here and get some advice rather than think about it in my head. I have some good friends that I talk to about dating, but none of them are Mustachians.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2015, 07:44:58 PM by MgoSam »

okits

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2015, 08:28:12 PM »
Does it have to be a big, scary, official discussion?  Can you mention something here and there (like interest in investing, preference for time/freedom vs. status symbols, mindful consumption) and see what conversations arise?  Get to know each other and see if you have compatible levels of responsibility, ambition, and discipline?

I think it makes sense to determine if you really like each other and work together well before worrying too much about whether your long-term goals line up.  Life plans can change, especially to accommodate someone you've found that you can't live without.

StetsTerhune

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2015, 08:34:40 PM »
You sound excited about her, that's always an awesome feeling. My personal feeling is that "mustachian" is not a requirement, but "totally frivolous spender" is a deal breaker. I think it should be a while before "finances" are discussed. It's more important to get a sense of how she actually lives and you will start getting a sense of that soon. Just take it easy and you'll figure out her attitude towards money pretty quickly.

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2015, 08:43:45 PM »
Does it have to be a big, scary, official discussion?  Can you mention something here and there (like interest in investing, preference for time/freedom vs. status symbols, mindful consumption) and see what conversations arise?  Get to know each other and see if you have compatible levels of responsibility, ambition, and discipline?

I think it makes sense to determine if you really like each other and work together well before worrying too much about whether your long-term goals line up.  Life plans can change, especially to accommodate someone you've found that you can't live without.

This. DH and I had very different attitudes to money when we first met. Very very different. But, being together mattered to us and we both compromised. On paper though, our finances did not look remotely compatible.

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2015, 08:45:01 PM »
If the topic of life plans comes up, just mention that you are working towards retiring in ten years, see how she responds. If she is intrigued, good. Mention the 'sacrifices' you are making, but that you plan to be debt-free in X-months/years (or are already debt-free). See if that idea is attractive to her. That might bring out a confession of sorts as to her debt load and plans for it. As long as it isn't insane...good to go!

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2015, 08:54:44 PM »
7 months ago I was in your same boat. Over the previous year I had went on a lot of dates. Most didn't work out. Last one has so far been great. She has student loans, but she has a plan to pay them off. Retiring early wasn't a goal for her, but she is already frugal. Add in decent income and she sees it is a possibility. She coupons, and she even made her christmas presents.

Comparing finances is big.

Mentioning off the cuff you want to retire early is pretty casual. That could be the start to a productive conversation. I started the conversation with "I would like to be able to retire early if I want to. I don't want to be stuck working a job I hate because I have to." She could relate to this because she feels like that what her father is doing.

You'll figure out if they are frugal or not in time.

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2015, 09:14:18 PM »

Mentioning off the cuff you want to retire early is pretty casual. That could be the start to a productive conversation. I started the conversation with "I would like to be able to retire early if I want to. I don't want to be stuck working a job I hate because I have to." She could relate to this because she feels like that what her father is doing.

You'll figure out if they are frugal or not in time.

I like this idea. I kind of start of talking about it in a more "hands-off" way (e.g. not directly tied to me), "so there's this whole idea called FI/RE... blahblah," and then go from there.

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2015, 09:31:31 PM »
Yeah, I'd be careful to not throw something out there that sounds so outrageous that she thinks your completely nuts!

I mean I was probably 8 years into my 17 year FIRE journey before I had the remotest idea that I could ONE DAY be retired.. let alone do it in another 7 years or so.

You are way ahead of her most likely, it will take a lot of "internalising" to get from "I like to be frugal and out of debt" to "Hey I want to save a million bucks in 10 years and quit work".. like WTF?

So yes share dreams and aspirations but be cautious of coming on too strong...:)

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2015, 11:06:46 PM »
As someone who is still in the dating pool, I keep my financial goals under wraps in the beginning. It's private, and I don't want someone thinking I'm in worse financial shape than I actually am because of my non-traditional spending habits. I also hate guys who talk about their portfolio or net worth because it makes them sound like a douche bag.

The best thing you can do is talk about your future aspirations and dreams. Trust me, no girl wants to hear a dude say he can't wait to sit at a desk for 45 years then retire and play golf and watch tv. Even non-mustachians know that sounds pathetic. Talk about your big ideas, the thing that keeps you going, the reason you can't wait to FIRE. And then when she asks how you're going to make it happen, tell her you have a master plan and wink. If she likes you and thinks your dreams sound like something she could get behind, she'll ask more questions. If she thinks you're crazy, you just dodged a bullet. Good luck.

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2015, 11:30:26 PM »
I would probably just bring up parts MMM lifestyle slowly or talk about stories you may have seen on the news read about online of people who have achieved early retirement and see what they say.

You will notice pretty quickly if they are frugal anyway from dates and things they talk about doing.


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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2015, 11:43:32 PM »
I brought it up right away. In fact, I would not date DH until he started maxing his 401(k).


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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2015, 12:33:14 AM »
From a sample of your first three dates/events, I would say you are likely to be on to a winner here. A SpendiPants wouldn't agree to pack charity food for a date and wouldn't be bothered about getting free tickets to the museum [An entitled SpendiPrince(ss) would expect their date to pay for everything and shower them with trinkets].

If someone gone on a few dates with set me down for 'the talk' I would probably run a mile, not because I disagree but the perception of how important money is to you (of course FIRE is actually about freedom, not money, but you're a genius if you can convey that subtlety before I've climbed out of the bathroom window).

Give it some time, once you've determined the current frugality/spendipants level, you know what your working with. If you are keen to test the waters sooner, maybe talk about finance related New Year resolutions and see if that triggers anything (good, bad, awareness).

Also remember your (or others' on the forum) journey of discovery with MMM, many of us were on the spendy side, and it took some time to see the light, or would have hated the idea of 'early retirement' even though we were saving a 'stache and being pretty frugal.

MandalayVA

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2015, 03:08:51 AM »
YOU'RE MOVING TOO FAST YOU'RE MOVING TOO FAST YOU'RE MOVING TOO FAST YOU'RE MOVING TOO FAST

Did I mention you're moving too fast?  :D

As you're getting to know this person better, her financial habits should be made pretty clear to you without having to have the Big Sit-Down Talk.  Enjoy the time together.   

arebelspy

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2015, 04:11:14 AM »
Quote
Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?

Tuesday.

You don't need to find out about her finances at all (that would be moving too fast), but you should mention your plans for ER, casually.
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thedayisbrave

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2015, 05:32:00 AM »
There's this dude that I like.  We're friends and have been for a while, but as soon as we sat down and started talking money, planning, life goals... I knew he was special.  Definitely didn't plan to talk about it, the conversation just flowed around to it so it was totally normal.  I agree, I wouldn't make it some big giant thing that must be discussed, but if it's important to you you'll find a way to bring it up casually.  You're definitely not crazy to bring it up early though, I would want to find out sooner or later whether someone's life goals are compatible with mine.. if not, I don't want to waste my time! (but YMMV of course)

Don Jean

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2015, 07:11:57 AM »
Hey,

I met someone a few weeks ago and we've gone on 3 days and texted a ton. I like her and I think that she likes me, she's planning to come to my friend's NY party.

We have talked about quite a few things openly, but haven't yet discussed life-plans and finances. I think that it would be a good idea to see if she is like-minded in terms of willing to consider early retirement. It may be something that she's never thought about, but might be open to it once she hears more. I don't think I should do it now, but would like to do it as finances are a deal-breaker for me. I haven't had a way to gauge her interest or see if is good with her money. Our first date was for coffee, the second wasn't quite a date but I help pack food for a charity and she came and joined me in doing so, and just earlier today we went to a museum exhibit that we both wanted to go (bonus, she got the tickets for free through work!).

I realize I likely am thinking way too far ahead, but I would rather discuss it here and get some advice rather than think about it in my head. I have some good friends that I talk to about dating, but none of them are Mustachians.

I am of the opinion that this is a discussion you are not required to have at this stage. In fact, you may work against your best interests by bringing it up at this stage.

Check Your Pulse
You've went on three dates, which is similar to shaking hands with a stranger at a cocktail party. Do you look at these people in the eye and grill them on their finances? Too much? Do you ask them how they choose to spend their money? Chances are you would not do so. A recommended litmus test at the early stages of a relationship is to ask yourself whether you would discuss these topics with someone you just shook hands with at a cocktail party. This does not preclude you from having a deep and intimate conversation; however, you'll note that these are often exploratory natural conversations that help you both ascertain fit not formulaic checkmarks on the path to the perfect mate.

Danger Will Robinson
You may be acting against your own best interests by making this conversation or any other quality you wish to pigeonhole an explicit target of dialogue. Normally, this level of angst about compatibility arises when you like someone and see potential--yay! :)...

...;however, you are suffering from recency bias. You have engendered positive feelings and a superficial diagnoses of compatibility. (you only been on three dates) These are a guise, which your subconscious projects indefinitely into the future. Yes! It is a guise. You don't yet truly know how you feel. The scientist in your head has put forth a hypothesis that dating and shared experiences will test. Suddenly, your subconscious bursts through the door and took this hypothesis as fact.

As simple as it sounds just be there and be present--be yourself. I don't mean that in such a way that you ignore your innate desire to court this new interest. Instead, what I mean to convey is that by being consistent with your character and personality prior to the relationship your preferences and desires will naturally manifest themselves. What's the secret? Her presences and desires will manifest themselves as well. As your interactions increase, you will convey your preference for Mustachian principles such as cooking at home rather than going out to eat.

If you have "a talk" at such an early stage, you may convey a more serious commitment, which you may not be ready to make or for which she may not be prepared. This outcome may ultimately be what you both want; however, your both undeniably flying blind. You may still hit the mark but no need to fire cupid's arrow blindfolded. The target is not going anywhere just yet and demonstrating a little patience may entice the target to move a little closer for an easier shot :)


Interest Compound

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2015, 08:05:21 AM »
The best thing you can do is talk about your future aspirations and dreams. Trust me, no girl wants to hear a dude say he can't wait to sit at a desk for 45 years then retire and play golf and watch tv. Even non-mustachians know that sounds pathetic. Talk about your big ideas, the thing that keeps you going, the reason you can't wait to FIRE. And then when she asks how you're going to make it happen, tell her you have a master plan and wink. If she likes you and thinks your dreams sound like something she could get behind, she'll ask more questions. If she thinks you're crazy, you just dodged a bullet. Good luck.

Perfect. I'd go with this. Under no circumstances would I mention the R word (Retired). Their perception of that word, has no bearing on what it means for you, and it can scare them off. If you have to put a word to it, after you've talked about your aspirations and given her the wink, say "Financially Independent."

If she needs an explanation of how that works, keep it simple and just say "savings". People understand savings. Don't mention investments, stocks, or safe-withdrawal-rates. I find that complicates the conversation, and makes some people (especially if you don't know them well) think you're running some kind of scheme. When explaining it, I take a page out of Arebelspy's book and explain it like this:

"If you save 10% of your paycheck a year, and spend 90%, every 9 years you'll be able to take a year off. Makes sense right? Now what if you save 20% of your paycheck, and spend 80%? Now every 4 years you can take a year off. A HUGE jump!

Now let's do something crazy...if you can manage to save 50% of your paycheck, you can take every other year off. (I give them some time to think about that, and maybe make small talk in between about how that could be easily attainable by living off one partner's salary and saving the other).

(Then I drop the bomb) Me personally, I'm saving 80% of my paycheck. So for every 1 year I work, I can take 4 years off. But I'm not actually taking the years off yet. I'm putting in all my work up-front, so after a few years of this, I'll never have to work again."

In a dating situation, I'd just say "I plan on saving 80%", so they don't start thinking I'm rich.

If she starts going down the path of calling you a lazy bum, mention that "Financial Independence isn't the end of work, it's the end of mandatory work, and start repeating your aspirations and the things you'll be able to accomplish once you're free of the daily grind. If she still seems resistant, you're in trouble.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2015, 08:16:23 AM by Interest Compound »

MgoSam

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2015, 08:37:00 AM »
Thanks everyone. While I haven't brought up finances, I believe that it can be casually brought up as things progress. I won't be mentioning FIRE or my plan to retire in 10 years, but lay out more about being good with money and saving up.

During our first coffee date, we talked about interests and she asked where I went to school and then asked if I went to the football game (they came to play the Gophers in October) and I shook her head. She playfully asked why not, and I told her that I don't like spending that much money on anything, and that I get a better view watching from my couch. She smiled at that.

I think that she's got a good mind on her, the exhibit I wanted to see wasn't cheap and I would have paid for us to go there, but sh was quick to say that she might be able to get them through work and for me to wait until she finds out, and she was able to do so. Many non-Mustachians wouldn't bother checking, so even if she hasn't thought about early retirement, she likely is good with her money.

StacheInAFlash

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2015, 08:57:02 AM »
From a sample of your first three dates/events, I would say you are likely to be on to a winner here. A SpendiPants wouldn't agree to pack charity food for a date and wouldn't be bothered about getting free tickets to the museum [An entitled SpendiPrince(ss) would expect their date to pay for everything and shower them with trinkets].

+1 to this! Those 1st 3 dates sound pretty mustachian to me, so I'd just keep doing what you're doing for a bit. Keep getting together on some frugal dates, and just play it by ear. If she is sick of you not spending a ton on her, she'll drop you soon enough and then you won't need to worry about it. If she keeps coming back for more, you'll know when to start talking about more personal things. Keep in mind you are still trying to 'woo' her, so don't be afraid to splurge on some flowers ($10 simple bouquet from the grocery store, not $90 FTD delivered to her office) and a nice chocolate bar or fancy Co-Op cheese, etc. Also, don't be afraid to mention your interest in personal finance and investing, and in that I would throw out there that you "occasionally" read MMM, Frugalwoods, NWEdible, RootOfGood, etc. I don't know which ones you actually read, but I'd mention more than just MMM as that way you don't sound hardcore into this one thing...plus the more you mention, the more likely she's maybe heard of one that you then use to guide the conversation.

arebelspy

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2015, 09:01:30 AM »
See I'd much rather mention early retirement and getting to travel and do whatever, than just mention being "good with money and saving up."

The former will give you way more information, based on her reaction (if it's cool, or ridiculous).  The latter just makes her think you're cheap.

I think ER can be mentioned easily, talking about your dreams, without being weird at all or grilling her about her finances or anything, which aren't any of your business at this point.

Basically it's way too early to talk finances. But it's not (and never is) too early to show who you are.

Discuss ER and your goals and future dreams, in a casual way. "Oh I love to travel..I really want to go to X, and when I'm retired in about a decade I plan to travel a lot" or whatever.

Her reaction will tell you a lot. 

Later on you guys will talk finances, if it gets to that point, and that's fine.

Basically just be yourself.  That doesn't mean grilling her on what her finances are like, but it should mean being open about this big thing that's a part of you.

Many people try to hide ER. That's silly, IMO.  That's where my advice is coming from. Everyone (coworkers, friends, etc) knew for years our FIRE plans. They'd ask "are you working one more year or two?" at the end.  It was part of us, and they rooted for us and wanted us to succeed. I was open, and frank. I never grilled anyone else on their finances, but let them know of my interest in the topic, and if they wanted to discuss their finances, they'd often bring it up and ask for advice.

Be open, and be yourself. Don't press her. Discuss ER as an inevitably, and she'll get curious and ask. It'll all work out.

Good luck. :)
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MgoSam

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2015, 10:01:07 AM »
See I'd much rather mention early retirement and getting to travel and do whatever, than just mention being "good with money and saving up."

The former will give you way more information, based on her reaction (if it's cool, or ridiculous).  The latter just makes her think you're cheap.

I think ER can be mentioned easily, talking about your dreams, without being weird at all or grilling her about her finances or anything, which aren't any of your business at this point.

Basically it's way too early to talk finances. But it's not (and never is) too early to show who you are.

Discuss ER and your goals and future dreams, in a casual way. "Oh I love to travel..I really want to go to X, and when I'm retired in about a decade I plan to travel a lot" or whatever.

Yeah this makes sense. I've dated quite a few people that I would begin to really like and then find out that we would not be compatible long-term and so that's my motivation for trying to get a feeling of what her mindset is.

But yeah I have gotten the sense that she bringing up what I would like to do after post-FIRE (without using the term FIRE), would be better than just being a cheapskate that hoards money.

MgoSam

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2015, 10:04:12 AM »

+1 to this! Those 1st 3 dates sound pretty mustachian to me, so I'd just keep doing what you're doing for a bit. Keep getting together on some frugal dates, and just play it by ear. If she is sick of you not spending a ton on her, she'll drop you soon enough and then you won't need to worry about it. If she keeps coming back for more, you'll know when to start talking about more personal things. Keep in mind you are still trying to 'woo' her, so don't be afraid to splurge on some flowers ($10 simple bouquet from the grocery store, not $90 FTD delivered to her office) and a nice chocolate bar or fancy Co-Op cheese, etc. Also, don't be afraid to mention your interest in personal finance and investing, and in that I would throw out there that you "occasionally" read MMM, Frugalwoods, NWEdible, RootOfGood, etc. I don't know which ones you actually read, but I'd mention more than just MMM as that way you don't sound hardcore into this one thing...plus the more you mention, the more likely she's maybe heard of one that you then use to guide the conversation.

Thanks yeah, I agree that the first three dates have been fairly awesome. Aside from driving, I have spent a grand total of $5 on our dates (coffee isn't cheap....), though I would have been happy to buy us tickets for the museum exhibit, and after packing food, if we had gone out to eat or get a drink, I would have been glad to pay for them.

I like the idea of buying flowers, but as it's winter here, I will wait until I am invited to her place (crosses fingers) for dinner to bring them. If we are meeting somewhere, then it will be quite inconvenient to keep them in my car when it's 20 degrees outside. I like chocolate, need to find out if she actually likes chocolate first, though either way I'm guessing she will appreciate the thought.

MgoSam

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2015, 10:06:11 AM »
From a sample of your first three dates/events, I would say you are likely to be on to a winner here. A SpendiPants wouldn't agree to pack charity food for a date and wouldn't be bothered about getting free tickets to the museum [An entitled SpendiPrince(ss) would expect their date to pay for everything and shower them with trinkets].

Agreed!

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2015, 10:16:39 AM »
Congrats on finding someone you are excited about being with!  At this stage, though, I think it is too early to have the "where do you see yourself in retirement" conversation, to me it is more of a 6-9 month talk.  I would work on getting to know her as a person first, her personality, sense of humor, and values.  Her spending habits will become apparent through casual conversation and time spent together. 

Continue to be true to yourself (and your budget) on your dates.

Also do not feel the need to divulge any financial numbers to her before the first year of dating.  Your numbers might be a sense of pride to you but are really none of her business until you two are very serious.  Just have fun and take it one date at a time!


MgoSam

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2015, 02:27:22 PM »
Congrats on finding someone you are excited about being with! 

Thanks!

On a side note, someone I dated about 3 years ago texted me about a fortnight ago (we are still friends, though don't see each other very often) to ask for investing advice. She wants to start to open an IRA and isn't sure if Roth is good for her. I'm happy to help her, but realize that wow, I didn't realize she hadn't even opened an IRA back then. She lives fairly frugally, but I didn't even bother to ask about her investments because we weren't close before we broke up.

tj

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2015, 06:57:28 PM »
I don't see any reason to bring it up at this point. It seems like you should know enough to determine if you'd like to keep seeing her or not. I feel like numbers aren't relevant until much later.

BrickByBrick

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2015, 07:10:56 PM »
It is very tempting to just ask bluntly what her full financial situation/financial philosophy is isn't it?

I'm fighting that urge right now as well.

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2015, 07:30:48 AM »
There are a ton of huge things you want to know in a relationship: family, faith, friends, finances, sex, etc. In my admittedly limited experience, all of this should and will eventually just come out organically as the relationship progresses, and forcing any conversation just makes things weird.

I came to realize how close her family was after one of her grandparents passed away. Same for me when my grandfather passed away in August.

I realized she was Catholic about three months into the relationship when she invited me to Easter mass at her church.

I realized she wanted kids when we were out and saw babies with other parents and she just sat there and smiled and talked about how cute they were.

I always accepted invitations to go out and drink with her friends. She similarly came down to Columbus while I was in law school and was always willing to go out for drinks with my friends.

And you'll recognize her financial behavior within a couple months without asking a single question. What kind of car does she drive? Is she always going shopping? Does she have expensive hobbies? Does she have a ton of the latest tech gadgets? For us, I could tell she was good with her money, but it wasn't until we moved in together (about nine months into the relationship) that we very thoroughly discussed budgets and financial goals.

And remember, if she's not "mustachian" now, she might come around. My GF had no idea about FIRE until I talked about it with her. She's slowly but surely coming on board (just increased her 401k contribution by 5% for next year).

Bottom line is that you and your SO will continue to reveal who you truly are as a person as the relationship progresses. You'll also see traits in your SO that you admire, and you will evolve yourself. Just have fun and don't put so much pressure on yourself. And definitely don't turn dating into a checklist type of encounter. That takes the fun out of growing together.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 07:33:21 AM by ReadySetMillionaire »

MgoSam

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2015, 10:04:20 AM »
Thanks everyone!

On a side note, when you meet someone through online dating, when does it become a "relationship?" This is the first time I've met someone from a dating site that lasted beyond a first meeting, and it's really different from a traditional relationship. With traditional relationships, I've asked a lady out, she said yes/no, we went on the date, and maybe had a second one, after that we generally have a good idea if we want to keep seeing each other, particularly if we have common friends (which can help gauge if the other person is interested me, and vice versa).

Thus far, I think it's clear that we like each other. The last two times we saw each other we hugged upon seeing each other and saying good bye and have texted multiple times daily. At the museum, we were holding hands at various points. Do you think I can assume that we are in a relationship? I know that I have no interest in pursuing anyone else for now, but I haven't spoken to her about this.

onlykelsey

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2015, 10:16:36 AM »
I would probably not assume you're in a relationship until you have a discussion about it, especially if you met through a dating website.  It sounds like you guys haven't been physical beyond hand-holding, I think after a first kiss would be a better time to bring up relationship expectations.  Unless you're part of a religious or some other celibate lifestyle, I suppose.

Cookie78

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2015, 10:16:42 AM »
Thanks everyone!

On a side note, when you meet someone through online dating, when does it become a "relationship?" This is the first time I've met someone from a dating site that lasted beyond a first meeting, and it's really different from a traditional relationship. With traditional relationships, I've asked a lady out, she said yes/no, we went on the date, and maybe had a second one, after that we generally have a good idea if we want to keep seeing each other, particularly if we have common friends (which can help gauge if the other person is interested me, and vice versa).

Thus far, I think it's clear that we like each other. The last two times we saw each other we hugged upon seeing each other and saying good bye and have texted multiple times daily. At the museum, we were holding hands at various points. Do you think I can assume that we are in a relationship? I know that I have no interest in pursuing anyone else for now, but I haven't spoken to her about this.

I don't think there is ANY point at which you can assume you are in a relationship (using the exclusive/monogamous romantic version of this word here). Everyone is going to have a different opinion on 'when it becomes a relationship'. Don't assume. Practice communication.

onlykelsey

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2015, 10:19:26 AM »
I don't think there is ANY point at which you can assume you are in a relationship (using the exclusive/monogamous romantic version of this word here). Everyone is going to have a different opinion on 'when it becomes a relationship'. Don't assume. Practice communication.

Agreed.  I also think that there can be a long range between the point at which you are not interested in pursuing anyone else, and the point at which you're not "allowed" to.  I think after a second or third date I usually have a good idea about whether I want to pursue a relationship, and stop pursing other people because I want to invest time in one relationship (and not four potential relationships).  But I think I would be well within my rights to keep seeing other people until there's an explicit discussion, even if I don't think most people necessarily exercise that option.

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2015, 10:27:29 AM »
Thanks everyone!

On a side note, when you meet someone through online dating, when does it become a "relationship?" This is the first time I've met someone from a dating site that lasted beyond a first meeting, and it's really different from a traditional relationship. With traditional relationships, I've asked a lady out, she said yes/no, we went on the date, and maybe had a second one, after that we generally have a good idea if we want to keep seeing each other, particularly if we have common friends (which can help gauge if the other person is interested me, and vice versa).

Thus far, I think it's clear that we like each other. The last two times we saw each other we hugged upon seeing each other and saying good bye and have texted multiple times daily. At the museum, we were holding hands at various points. Do you think I can assume that we are in a relationship? I know that I have no interest in pursuing anyone else for now, but I haven't spoken to her about this.

Slowwwwwwww down, just keep doing what you're doing, and stop worrying about labels. All that will come if both parties are interested in each other.

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2015, 10:35:34 AM »
Thus far, I think it's clear that we like each other. The last two times we saw each other we hugged upon seeing each other and saying good bye and have texted multiple times daily. At the museum, we were holding hands at various points. Do you think I can assume that we are in a relationship? I know that I have no interest in pursuing anyone else for now, but I haven't spoken to her about this.

Next one a nice dinner w/ kiss. GLHF!

EDIT: Don't let this happen.  Hugs are good, but it can also friendzone you.  But holding hands is very positive.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 10:41:54 AM by arebelspy »
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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2015, 10:37:52 AM »
Does it have to be a big, scary, official discussion?  Can you mention something here and there (like interest in investing, preference for time/freedom vs. status symbols, mindful consumption) and see what conversations arise?  Get to know each other and see if you have compatible levels of responsibility, ambition, and discipline?

I think it makes sense to determine if you really like each other and work together well before worrying too much about whether your long-term goals line up.  Life plans can change, especially to accommodate someone you've found that you can't live without.
For sure this.

My husband and I were a decent financial match, but that didn't exactly come up in conversation.  We did figure it out though (dated 2.5 years before getting engaged).

Then again, this is how you figure it out -

First date: pick-up volleyball at a local high school, followed by a spaghetti dinner at his apartment
Second date: movie (out)
Many other dates: Borders bookstore (we both had a book habit)

Simply spending time with someone, and seeing how they like to spend their time/ money, speaks volumes

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2015, 10:41:00 AM »
Don't assume. Practice communication.

Even I knew the answer to this one. :)

By the way, I would apply this advice to any touching as well. I wouldn't touch anybody, even a hug or holding hands, without explicitly seeking and receiving clear oral consent, and I would be (and am) displeased if somebody tried or tries to touch me without seeking and receiving such clear oral consent from me first. This also applies to arebelspy's kiss suggestion -- hopefully there's a step in there where explicit oral consent is sought and obtained first.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 07:18:07 PM by Cathy »

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2015, 10:55:29 AM »
Thanks everyone!

On a side note, when you meet someone through online dating, when does it become a "relationship?" This is the first time I've met someone from a dating site that lasted beyond a first meeting, and it's really different from a traditional relationship. With traditional relationships, I've asked a lady out, she said yes/no, we went on the date, and maybe had a second one, after that we generally have a good idea if we want to keep seeing each other, particularly if we have common friends (which can help gauge if the other person is interested me, and vice versa).

Thus far, I think it's clear that we like each other. The last two times we saw each other we hugged upon seeing each other and saying good bye and have texted multiple times daily. At the museum, we were holding hands at various points. Do you think I can assume that we are in a relationship? I know that I have no interest in pursuing anyone else for now, but I haven't spoken to her about this.

You don't know. You talk about. Some people multidate so she could be seeing or sleeping with other men when she isn't with you.

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2015, 10:56:57 AM »
Agreed with everyone saying you have to talk about wanting to be in a relationship (but maybe after a couple more dates), but it does sound like she is interested so far.  From a 29 year old who met her husband online dating, for what it's worth.

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2015, 11:19:49 AM »

By the way, I would apply this advice to any touching as well. I wouldn't touch anybody, even a hug or holding hands, without explicitly seeking and receiving clear oral consent, and I would be (and am) displeased if somebody tried or tries to touch me without seeking and receiving such clear oral consent from me first. This also applies to arebelspy's kiss suggestion -- hopefully there's a step in there where explicit oral consent is sought and obtained first.

Is this a new thing? I've been out of the dating market for several years, so might be a bit behind on the times, but it would seem really strange/awkward to me if I was on a date and the guy asked me if he could hold my hand, hug me, kiss me, etc. I'm not sure how a person could word it so it wouldn't kill the moment. I'm really having a hard time picturing how it would play out - does anyone have maybe a youtube video with actors demonstrating it?

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2015, 11:41:53 AM »
"May I kiss you" and "May I hold your hand" sound very courtly to me. If I guy used these phrases on me, I would mark him as a gentleman.


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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2015, 12:36:14 PM »
"May I kiss you" and "May I hold your hand" sound very courtly to me. If I guy used these phrases on me, I would mark him as a gentleman.


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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2015, 01:01:40 PM »
Is this a new thing?

Is the concept of seeking consent before touching someone new? No, it is not new. It has deep roots in the common law, not to mention in common sense. Back in 1981, the Supreme Court of British Columbia, a court in the province where you live, explained the concept of battery as follows (quoting a secondary source):

                 The application of force to the person of another without lawful justification amounts to the wrong of battery. This is so, however trivial the amount or nature of the force may be, and even though it neither does nor is intended nor is likely or able to do any manner of harm. Even to touch a person without his consent or some other lawful reason is actionable. Nor is anger or hostility essential to liability: an unwanted kiss may be a battery. For the interest that is protected by the law of assault and battery is not merely that of freedom from bodily harm, but also that of freedom from such forms of insult as may be due to interference with his person. In respect of his personal dignity, therefore, a [person] may recover substantial damages for battery which had done him no physical harm whatever...
P.B. v. Baugh, [1982] 2 WWR 126, 1981 CanLII 622 at ¶ 18 (quoting a secondary source; emphasis added).

Furthermore, in Canada, a plaintiff is not required to prove lack of consent to prevail on a claim of battery. E.g., Non-Marine Underwriters, Lloyd's of London v. Scalera, 2000 SCC 24, [2000] 1 SCR 551 at ¶ 20. The only exception mentioned by the Court is that battery does not include "inevitable contact that goes with ordinary human activity, like brushing someone’s hand in the course of exchanging a gift, a gratuitous handshake, or being jostled in a crowd". Id at ¶ 21. Hugging may arguably fall into that category, but kissing is well outside of that kind of conduct.

To be clear, my post above was not making any kind of legal argument, and this post is not either. The only reason I cited these Canadian authorities is to make the point that seeking consent before touching somebody is not "a new thing". The fact that this concept has been a part of the law for a long time shows that it is not new. It is part of being a member of a civilised society.

MgoSam

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2015, 01:11:40 PM »

To be clear, my post above was not making any kind of legal argument, and this post is not either. The only reason I cited these Canadian authorities is to make the point that seeking consent before touching somebody is not "a new thing". The fact that this concept has been a part of the law for a long time shows that it is not new. It is part of being a member of a civilised society.

I'm still lost at what you are trying to saying. I don't want to kiss her, or anyone for that matter, without them also wanting me to do so, but for the first kiss, it would feel entirely unromantic to turn to her and say, "May I kiss you?"

While we were at the museum, there were a ton of people at the exhibit and I lightly put my arm on her back to stay with her as we were trying to find a spot to get a good view of the painting that the guide was talking about. I could see her smile at the contact and later she put her arm around me. I think this worked rather well.

matchewed

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2015, 01:23:01 PM »

To be clear, my post above was not making any kind of legal argument, and this post is not either. The only reason I cited these Canadian authorities is to make the point that seeking consent before touching somebody is not "a new thing". The fact that this concept has been a part of the law for a long time shows that it is not new. It is part of being a member of a civilised society.

I'm still lost at what you are trying to saying. I don't want to kiss her, or anyone for that matter, without them also wanting me to do so, but for the first kiss, it would feel entirely unromantic to turn to her and say, "May I kiss you?"

While we were at the museum, there were a ton of people at the exhibit and I lightly put my arm on her back to stay with her as we were trying to find a spot to get a good view of the painting that the guide was talking about. I could see her smile at the contact and later she put her arm around me. I think this worked rather well.

It's simple. Cathy stated that you should ask for consent before kissing. Zikoris asked if it was new. Cathy said no.

It is a matter of politeness and respecting another person, their space, and their body. It doesn't have to be stilted and formal. And don't assume implication is understood by both parties.

You could just google "asking for consent".

robartsd

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2015, 01:37:53 PM »
The three dates you've been on are much more signficant to the nature of your relationship than how you happened to meet (dating site); however, you can't make any assumptions about being "in a relationship". Sure it is convienient that in your past relationships, you've had someone in common who could help mediate the communication to avoid an awkward misinterpretation of each other's actions; however, many successful relationships have developed without such a luxury - you just need to expand your communications skill set and negotiate developing the relationship without that help. You might want to define if you are "in a relationship" before you arive together at your friend's party on Thursday. You could just casually bring up your interest in continuing to get to know her and ask how she would like your friends to see her.

As for physical affection, it sounds like you're doing just fine respecting her and developing the level of affection you are both comfortable without words. I certainly wouldn't discourage speaking "May I ...", but carefully observing her signals as you causiously signal your intention to show affection can also work. You could ask for permission before the "moment" such as "May I kiss you at midnight?" before going to the new year's party or "May I kiss you goodnight when I drop you off?" as you begin the drive to her place at the end of a date. (This could even allow anticipation to amplify the power of showing affection.)

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2015, 01:44:42 PM »

To be clear, my post above was not making any kind of legal argument, and this post is not either. The only reason I cited these Canadian authorities is to make the point that seeking consent before touching somebody is not "a new thing". The fact that this concept has been a part of the law for a long time shows that it is not new. It is part of being a member of a civilised society.

I'm still lost at what you are trying to saying. I don't want to kiss her, or anyone for that matter, without them also wanting me to do so, but for the first kiss, it would feel entirely unromantic to turn to her and say, "May I kiss you?"

While we were at the museum, there were a ton of people at the exhibit and I lightly put my arm on her back to stay with her as we were trying to find a spot to get a good view of the painting that the guide was talking about. I could see her smile at the contact and later she put her arm around me. I think this worked rather well.

Don't ask.  As much as girls might tell people otherwise they instinctually want an aggressive mate who takes what they want.  Now if you try to take what you want (first go in for the kiss and see if she does too, etc to next step ,etc) and they say no or stop then you stop.  That really would just mean that they're not that in to you.  This one is in to you by the looks of it.  Go take what you want.  As for explaining your financial philosophy, spend enough to show her you value her and your time with her.  Also don't spend lavishly to look like someone youre not.  Once she really knows you after 6 months to a year of dating then she'll be ready to see that you save your money because you value her and your time with her so much that you want more of it.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 01:47:13 PM by Bucksandreds »

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2015, 01:50:23 PM »

To be clear, my post above was not making any kind of legal argument, and this post is not either. The only reason I cited these Canadian authorities is to make the point that seeking consent before touching somebody is not "a new thing". The fact that this concept has been a part of the law for a long time shows that it is not new. It is part of being a member of a civilised society.

I'm still lost at what you are trying to saying. I don't want to kiss her, or anyone for that matter, without them also wanting me to do so, but for the first kiss, it would feel entirely unromantic to turn to her and say, "May I kiss you?"

While we were at the museum, there were a ton of people at the exhibit and I lightly put my arm on her back to stay with her as we were trying to find a spot to get a good view of the painting that the guide was talking about. I could see her smile at the contact and later she put her arm around me. I think this worked rather well.

Don't ask.  As much as girls might tell people otherwise they instinctually want an aggressive mate who takes what they want.  Now if you try to take what you want (first go in for the kiss and see if she does too, etc to next step ,etc) and they say no or stop then you stop.  That really would just mean that they're not that in to you.  This one is in to you by the looks of it.  Go take what you want.  As for explaining your financial philosophy, spend enough to show her you value her and your time with her.  Also don't spend lavishly to look like someone youre not.  Once she really knows you after 6 months to a year of dating then she'll be ready to see that you save your money because you value her and your time with her so much that you want more of it.
You sound like a red pill subscriber. OP--don't listen to this complete generalization of women.

Even with that said, asking verbally for consent beforehand is totally weird and off putting. Be a normal human, pick up context clues, and stop over-thinking every little thing as if the existence of your relationship would immediately terminate if you make a slight mistake.

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2015, 01:52:00 PM »
Is this a new thing?

Is the concept of seeking consent before touching someone new? No, it is not new. It has deep roots in the common law, not to mention in common sense. Back in 1981, the Supreme Court of British Columbia, a court in the province where you live, explained the concept of battery as follows (quoting a secondary source):

                 The application of force to the person of another without lawful justification amounts to the wrong of battery. This is so, however trivial the amount or nature of the force may be, and even though it neither does nor is intended nor is likely or able to do any manner of harm. Even to touch a person without his consent or some other lawful reason is actionable. Nor is anger or hostility essential to liability: an unwanted kiss may be a battery. For the interest that is protected by the law of assault and battery is not merely that of freedom from bodily harm, but also that of freedom from such forms of insult as may be due to interference with his person. In respect of his personal dignity, therefore, a [person] may recover substantial damages for battery which had done him no physical harm whatever...
P.B. v. Baugh, [1982] 2 WWR 126, 1981 CanLII 622 at ¶ 18 (quoting a secondary source; emphasis added).

Furthermore, in Canada, a plaintiff is not required to prove lack of consent to prevail on a claim of battery. E.g., Non-Marine Underwriters, Lloyd's of London v. Scalera, 2000 SCC 24, [2000] 1 SCR 551 at ¶ 20. The only exception mentioned by the Court is that battery does not include "inevitable contact that goes with ordinary human activity, like brushing someone’s hand in the course of exchanging a gift, a gratuitous handshake, or being jostled in a crowd". Id at ¶ 21. Hugging may arguably fall into that category, but kissing is well outside of that kind of conduct.

To be clear, my post above was not making any kind of legal argument, and this post is not either. The only reason I cited these Canadian authorities is to make the point that seeking consent before touching somebody is not "a new thing". The fact that this concept has been a part of the law for a long time shows that it is not new. It is part of being a member of a civilised society.

I meant a new thing in the dating world. It's not something I've ever experienced, nor have I ever witnessed other people doing it. Even outside of dating, I've never once asked or been asked permission to hug, shake hands, put arms around each other for a photo, or any other sort of normal touching. Not with friends, family, dates, within relationships, anywhere or with anyone. I have to wonder if it exists at all outside of certain very specific, small groups of people.

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2015, 01:54:12 PM »

To be clear, my post above was not making any kind of legal argument, and this post is not either. The only reason I cited these Canadian authorities is to make the point that seeking consent before touching somebody is not "a new thing". The fact that this concept has been a part of the law for a long time shows that it is not new. It is part of being a member of a civilised society.

I'm still lost at what you are trying to saying. I don't want to kiss her, or anyone for that matter, without them also wanting me to do so, but for the first kiss, it would feel entirely unromantic to turn to her and say, "May I kiss you?"

While we were at the museum, there were a ton of people at the exhibit and I lightly put my arm on her back to stay with her as we were trying to find a spot to get a good view of the painting that the guide was talking about. I could see her smile at the contact and later she put her arm around me. I think this worked rather well.

Don't ask.  As much as girls might tell people otherwise they instinctually want an aggressive mate who takes what they want.  Now if you try to take what you want (first go in for the kiss and see if she does too, etc to next step ,etc) and they say no or stop then you stop.  That really would just mean that they're not that in to you.  This one is in to you by the looks of it.  Go take what you want.  As for explaining your financial philosophy, spend enough to show her you value her and your time with her.  Also don't spend lavishly to look like someone youre not.  Once she really knows you after 6 months to a year of dating then she'll be ready to see that you save your money because you value her and your time with her so much that you want more of it.

This is absolute fucking bullshit and you really should stop giving advice. That's about the tamest response I can muster for you. Consent is a thing, and you need to learn what it is.

The three dates you've been on are much more signficant to the nature of your relationship than how you happened to meet (dating site); however, you can't make any assumptions about being "in a relationship". Sure it is convienient that in your past relationships, you've had someone in common who could help mediate the communication to avoid an awkward misinterpretation of each other's actions; however, many successful relationships have developed without such a luxury - you just need to expand your communications skill set and negotiate developing the relationship without that help. You might want to define if you are "in a relationship" before you arive together at your friend's party on Thursday. You could just casually bring up your interest in continuing to get to know her and ask how she would like your friends to see her.

As for physical affection, it sounds like you're doing just fine respecting her and developing the level of affection you are both comfortable without words. I certainly wouldn't discourage speaking "May I ...", but carefully observing her signals as you causiously signal your intention to show affection can also work. You could ask for permission before the "moment" such as "May I kiss you at midnight?" before going to the new year's party or "May I kiss you goodnight when I drop you off?" as you begin the drive to her place at the end of a date. (This could even allow anticipation to amplify the power of showing affection.)

This is only my opinion, but I like uncertainty and anticipation of possibilities. I would (and have) ask if someone would like a kiss goodnight at the moment when I would kiss them; asking far ahead of time seems awkward and strange to me (also, if they change their mind then they are in a really awkward position to say no).  I generally phrase it as 'would you like' instead of 'may I', but again that's personal preference.

Sometimes I ask and sometimes I don't. I try very hard to read body language and often a first kiss is very obviously a mutual desire without words to that affect. I will sometimes ask if I am unsure, but I am generally quite conservative with my guesses (I have never been told no, which implies there are likely other times I could have kissed but didn't).

First kisses are my favorite. :)

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Re: Started dating someone, when to bring up MMM and finances?
« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2015, 01:55:57 PM »
Even with that said, asking verbally for consent beforehand is totally weird and off putting. Be a normal human, pick up context clues, and stop over-thinking every little thing as if the existence of your relationship would immediately terminate if you make a slight mistake.
Not necessarily; see below. I can also say from personal experience that some people really appreciate that.

"May I kiss you" and "May I hold your hand" sound very courtly to me. If I guy used these phrases on me, I would mark him as a gentleman.


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It's sexy as hell when done properly.